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Any ideas coaches?
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So I am self-coached, and my wife does my workouts too (I try to modify them when needed to fit her needs so I guess I can say I coach her). I've had a lot of success with it and she has had some excellent results too, but she does seem to struggle to recover sometimes and often has trouble doing back to back hard workouts. She also struggles to ever do bike workouts hitting her target wattage (virtual power/indoor trainer). The bike struggles blow my mind a bit, she can sit down and to the 20 minute FTP estimate test (same one I do) and hit great numbers, then we turn around and she can't hit those numbers or reasonable percentages for short intervals in workouts. When I do the same workouts based off the same protocols using the same software I have no issues other than the normal hard workout suffering. I don't think it is a lack of motivation or ability to suffer, like I said she can bury herself and hit surprising numbers in the 20 minute test, she also just recently blew her half marathon PR out of the water (1:26) with just one day of rest, and is a former elite level distance swimmer (16:46 mile PR in high school) so the ability to go to a happy place and keep suffering is clearly there.

I know some of it is that she is a fairly new mother and the priorities are different now, but she is still motivated to kick butt in tri. The problems mostly present themselves on the bike, but it isn't rare for there to be consecutive sub-par swim and run workouts for someone of her caliber. Rest days and recovery weeks rarely help, and often just discourage her because she doesn't come back feeling great and she thinks the rest was just wasted time. Last year I attributed the problem to struggling to come back from having a kid in the offseason, so I made a schedule that was a much lower volume and never had hard days back to back, and often gave two easy days between hard ones. It fit her schedule but her race performance was predictably below her likely potential. This year the goals are a little more ambitious and she won't reach those goals without more volume and more intensity, but I am almost ready to turn back to the lower volume rotation and suggest lowering the goals, but I know her potential is there for a very good OLY and I don't want her to have to settle for less if there is an alternative.

One last thing that has occurred to me and I may suggest this to her, but it is hard to approach for a female athlete. I think she may be underweight, she is about 5-10 lbs below her college race weight. I also noticed she is about the same height but below the weight of most of the top females in long-course racing (according to the ST article on height and weight at Kona last year). Not sure if the lower weight is causing the recovery issues, and not sure I want to bring it up lol. She doesn't pay much attention to stuff like that so I don't think it would be good to make it an issue.

So that's the challenge. Anyone have a similar conundrum and a solution?

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Re: Any ideas coaches? [Tulkas] [ In reply to ]
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I am not a coach.

But would you elaborate on the amount of time that you have her at low intensity, medium, and high?
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Re: Any ideas coaches? [Tulkas] [ In reply to ]
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Not a coach, but am a female. Possible she's not going easy enough on easy days to be rested? Enough sleep/caloric intake?
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Re: Any ideas coaches? [Tulkas] [ In reply to ]
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I coach myself and my wife as well (just cycling), and I have noticed that high intensity work can wear her our more than it does me. I could do a week with lots of high high intensity 4 times a week and feel fine.

For her I focused this winter more on lots of level 2 volume with high intensity less often. After a few months of that you may find she can do the intense stuff with less fatigue. The more you train the more you can train.

So try a shift, replace the high intensity with easy volume for a couple months. You are triathletes you don't *need* to do anything over level 4. There are great universes of fitness to be achieved before you worry about intervals harder than that.

might also get a blood test to check iron levels.

good luck!



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Re: Any ideas coaches? [Tulkas] [ In reply to ]
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Are you looking to validate the plan? If so, post some numbers/workout examples? Otherwise people will be trying to interpret what a 'reasonable percentage' is.

Sounds like you're more worried about her health which is good. If you have her buy in then try recording resting heart rate in the morning, heart rates during workouts, diet and of course the workouts themselves. You might find some trends. Seeing a doctor is also an option if it's that extreme.

As a complete shot in the dark, if she's been working out very hard for a long time, maybe consider if could be chronic fatigue from overtraining?

EDIT: I am not a coach!
Last edited by: dado0583: Apr 17, 14 6:32
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Re: Any ideas coaches? [Tulkas] [ In reply to ]
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 "She also struggles to ever do bike workouts hitting her target wattage (virtual power/indoor trainer). The bike struggles blow my mind a bit, she can sit down and to the 20 minute FTP estimate test (same one I do) and hit great numbers, then we turn around and she can't hit those numbers or reasonable percentages for short intervals in workouts. "

Her ranges are too high. Just because you do a 20 minute test, doesnt mean these are the golden ranges. Listen to what she is producing and if they don't match up, don't try and squeeze a football through a straw...or the straw will eventually break in many ways.

"........ It fit her schedule but her race performance was predictably below her likely potential. This year the goals are a little more ambitious and she won't reach those goals without more volume and more intensity, but I am almost ready to turn back to the lower volume rotation and suggest lowering the goals, but I know her potential is there for a very good OLY and I don't want her to have to settle for less if there is an alternative."


You don't give her the workouts that will make her great and where she needs to be, you give her workouts where she is currently at. Its great to be ambitious and have high goals but that doesnt do well when shes hurt, burned out, frustrated, and lost all confidence in her ability over so many failed workouts and failed recovery. More volume and more intensity is individual. Personally, and have never seen her program and just hearing of her background, send more time will a tad less intensity and more sub threshold work with bi weekly above race pace work.

"One last thing that has occurred to me and I may suggest this to her, but it is hard to approach for a female athlete. I think she may be underweight, she is about 5-10 lbs below her college race weight. I also noticed she is about the same height but below the weight of most of the top females in long-course racing (according to the ST article on height and weight at Kona last year). Not sure if the lower weight is causing the recovery issues, and not sure I want to bring it up lol. She doesn't pay much attention to stuff like that so I don't think it would be good to make it an issue."

Hard to comment without seeing her.... but this is 100% a major issue,for men and women.

Inside The Big Ring: Podcast & Coaching



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Re: Any ideas coaches? [Tulkas] [ In reply to ]
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Having a bit more weight definitely helps absorb a higher workload. I don't have peer-reviewed research to back that up, but just a general sense from knowing a lot of faster distance runner chicks and triathletes. It seems like the skinniest ones have the hardest time recovering and the most injuries. I think Macca wrote an article about how he discovered being lean was actually a hindrance to long course racing.

There's a few other things to consider - a big one is iron/ferritin blood levels. Get that checked out regularly.

The other thing may simply be the breakdown of her diet. If she's anything like most of the girls I know, her carb and protein intake is probably WAY lower than it should be. All vegetables/salads and not enough good carbs and protein.

In terms of general training, try to stick to that 80% easy, 20% hard volume ratio.

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Re: Any ideas coaches? [Cheesy Bottom] [ In reply to ]
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Cheesy Bottom wrote:
I am not a coach.

But would you elaborate on the amount of time that you have her at low intensity, medium, and high?

Basically during the past couple months we would do 1-2 hard bike and 1-2 hard run workouts each week. The hard workouts would normally be 60-90 minutes and may have 20-25 minutes Z4 and the rest mostly Z2, or maybe as much as 60 minutes Z3 and the rest Z1 or 2. There are also long runs that are almost entirely steady state comfortable efforts, though we sometimes do these together and may push a little harder than we should (Z3 instead of Z2), but that is only occasionally. There are also easy recovery workouts in there that are just Z1-2 and are 30-60 minutes long. Swimming isn't really a stressor for either of us and the only issues we have are when we are tired going into the workout, but we only swim twice a week for no more than an hour.

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Re: Any ideas coaches? [Tulkas] [ In reply to ]
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Is the lower weight after the birth of your kid?

How is her nutrition? Enough carbs/protein/fruits/veggies....all the normal good triathlete diet stuff?

Nutrition is so important in recovery and being able to get yourself ready to do another hard workout. I don't know anything about your wife other than what you typed. In your post you said that she has a new baby (which also means a new post baby body), is underweight and is frustrated by her performance. Food is something you can control. You can't control your kid, you can't always control your training performance, but you can absolutely control how much food you put into your mouth. You have a bad workout, so that means you can only eat salad that day. Which means you didn't recover properly and will have another bad workout. That is a cycle I've seen a few women get into.

Just a thought.
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Re: Any ideas coaches? [Tulkas] [ In reply to ]
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Tulkas wrote:
Cheesy Bottom wrote:
I am not a coach.

But would you elaborate on the amount of time that you have her at low intensity, medium, and high?


Basically during the past couple months we would do 1-2 hard bike and 1-2 hard run workouts each week. The hard workouts would normally be 60-90 minutes and may have 20-25 minutes Z4 and the rest mostly Z2, or maybe as much as 60 minutes Z3 and the rest Z1 or 2. There are also long runs that are almost entirely steady state comfortable efforts, though we sometimes do these together and may push a little harder than we should (Z3 instead of Z2), but that is only occasionally. There are also easy recovery workouts in there that are just Z1-2 and are 30-60 minutes long. Swimming isn't really a stressor for either of us and the only issues we have are when we are tired going into the workout, but we only swim twice a week for no more than an hour.


Hi,
Unfortunately your explanation is very general, and doesn't give much specifics as to how much total time is spent at the lower intensity levels.
If you want to do the specifics, this is what I was thinking of:
minutes at low intensity per week:
minutes at medium intensity per week:
minutes at high intensity per week:

But I think the end result will be the same. She has too much medium/high intensity, and not enough volume at low intensity. Play with it and see what happens.
Last edited by: Cheesy Bottom: Apr 17, 14 7:46
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Re: Any ideas coaches? [Brandes] [ In reply to ]
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Brandes wrote:
"She also struggles to ever do bike workouts hitting her target wattage (virtual power/indoor trainer). The bike struggles blow my mind a bit, she can sit down and to the 20 minute FTP estimate test (same one I do) and hit great numbers, then we turn around and she can't hit those numbers or reasonable percentages for short intervals in workouts. "

Her ranges are too high. Just because you do a 20 minute test, doesnt mean these are the golden ranges. Listen to what she is producing and if they don't match up, don't try and squeeze a football through a straw...or the straw will eventually break in many ways.

"........ It fit her schedule but her race performance was predictably below her likely potential. This year the goals are a little more ambitious and she won't reach those goals without more volume and more intensity, but I am almost ready to turn back to the lower volume rotation and suggest lowering the goals, but I know her potential is there for a very good OLY and I don't want her to have to settle for less if there is an alternative."


You don't give her the workouts that will make her great and where she needs to be, you give her workouts where she is currently at. Its great to be ambitious and have high goals but that doesnt do well when shes hurt, burned out, frustrated, and lost all confidence in her ability over so many failed workouts and failed recovery. More volume and more intensity is individual. Personally, and have never seen her program and just hearing of her background, send more time will a tad less intensity and more sub threshold work with bi weekly above race pace work.

"One last thing that has occurred to me and I may suggest this to her, but it is hard to approach for a female athlete. I think she may be underweight, she is about 5-10 lbs below her college race weight. I also noticed she is about the same height but below the weight of most of the top females in long-course racing (according to the ST article on height and weight at Kona last year). Not sure if the lower weight is causing the recovery issues, and not sure I want to bring it up lol. She doesn't pay much attention to stuff like that so I don't think it would be good to make it an issue."

Hard to comment without seeing her.... but this is 100% a major issue,for men and women.

When I say intensity I refer to anything above a comfortable effort, not necessarily all out or speed work type stuff, that is pretty rare. To clarify a little further I am not giving workouts that exceed her current abilities. As I said she just did a half marathon with almost no rest in 1:26 (6:34/mile). This week I asked her to do a 10k tempo run with a goal just under 7:00 pace and she struggled to go 7:10s (it's all flat around here so pace is a fairly reliable indicator of effort, she doesn't like heart rate monitors so can't use that). I would expect an athlete capable of 13.1 miles at 6:34 with no rest would be capable of 6.2 miles at 7:00 with very little effort. To put it into perspective, a few weeks ago we did a long (14 mile) run together and intended it to be comfortable pace, ended up pushing each other a bit (still only upper Z2 low Z3 roughly) and averaged 7:08 for the run. Again, I don't think I'm asking anything outside of her abilities. She just had a rest week, but I am leaning towards this being over-training as Jackmott said and will likely suggest another recovery week, but it does seem odd because there has been very little that should have challenged her to the degree that she can't recover within a day. When we raced Ironmans a few years ago she never had problems bouncing back and doing hard workouts consistently, and she is much faster now than she was then.

And with the bike stuff, when I talk about reasonable percentages of the FTP estimate I am using trainerroad workouts (and rarely something like a sufferfest workout) which are honestly easier than the stuff we do outside, but they do often result in failure. I have tried to adjust things down to prevent failed workouts but it isn't rare for her to be unable to push any effort outside of Z2. She sleeps almost double what I sleep (I work crazy hours and often only get 4-5 hours vs her usual 8-9 hours), but she does have to keep up with a 21 month old wild child all day at home which certainly can drain you. I might also look into having her check her iron levels, I know your body can change after you have a baby but this is definitely out of the ordinary.

And to the poster that asked about validating the plan, I'm not really concerned with that, I have been coaching the two of us for a few years now and we have both been very successful. This year was actually going REALLY well for her with running, pretty well with cycling, and okay for swimming. Since the new year she has set a 2 minute PR in her 10K and a 5 minute PR in her 13.1. I think the plan is solid, it just got derailed a lot in the past month and she is completely discouraged and lost all confidence. There have been a few rest weeks in that time too.

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Re: Any ideas coaches? [Brandes] [ In reply to ]
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This.

Brandes wrote:
"Her ranges are too high. Just because you do a 20 minute test, doesnt mean these are the golden ranges. Listen to what she is producing and if they don't match up, don't try and squeeze a football through a straw...or the straw will eventually break in many ways.

You don't give her the workouts that will make her great and where she needs to be, you give her workouts where she is currently at.

Later!

Brian

.

Swim. Bike. Run. Repeat as necessary.
Welcome to the Church of Briantriology!
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Re: Any ideas coaches? [Tulkas] [ In reply to ]
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Has she had her Hemoglobin levels tested? My wife had some performance issues last year, and it turned out she was severly anemic. Look at the timing of her perfomance issues, and see if it lines up with her cycle, and it may give you some clues.
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Re: Any ideas coaches? [snackchair] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, in terms of diet she is pretty conscious of eating healthy but I have been a hindrance there:) I eat like crap a lot of the time and my crappy snacks become irresistible when they are staring at her from the closet. The silly thing is that I eat garbage all the time, lots of it, but I rebound very well from workouts. I can basically go balls out 6 days a week and keep coming back, while she eats better and struggles. I am going to say it may be that she probably feels guilty indulging in some of my crap from time to time and ends up compensating by not eating enough of the good stuff. I always tell her that there are three aspects of health: body, mind, and soul. It might not be good for the body, but two out of three ain't bad!

Along that line, I am starting to think nutrition is just as individual as what shoes to wear or what bike to ride. There is no way I should be able to do some of the stuff I do if eating greasy, fatty foods and copious amounts of sugar is bad for you. A while back I noted that after a couple days where I worked 24 of the past 36 hours, only slept 4 hours, and ate potato chips and mexican food like I was on a binger, I proceeded to have the best long run I had done in my life (at the time). It makes no sense so I don't worry about it much anymore.

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Re: Any ideas coaches? [Brandes] [ In reply to ]
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Brandes wrote:
"She also struggles to ever do bike workouts hitting her target wattage (virtual power/indoor trainer). The bike struggles blow my mind a bit, she can sit down and to the 20 minute FTP estimate test (same one I do) and hit great numbers, then we turn around and she can't hit those numbers or reasonable percentages for short intervals in workouts. "

Her ranges are too high. Just because you do a 20 minute test, doesnt mean these are the golden ranges. Listen to what she is producing and if they don't match up, don't try and squeeze a football through a straw...or the straw will eventually break in many ways.

"........ It fit her schedule but her race performance was predictably below her likely potential. This year the goals are a little more ambitious and she won't reach those goals without more volume and more intensity, but I am almost ready to turn back to the lower volume rotation and suggest lowering the goals, but I know her potential is there for a very good OLY and I don't want her to have to settle for less if there is an alternative."


You don't give her the workouts that will make her great and where she needs to be, you give her workouts where she is currently at. Its great to be ambitious and have high goals but that doesnt do well when shes hurt, burned out, frustrated, and lost all confidence in her ability over so many failed workouts and failed recovery. More volume and more intensity is individual. Personally, and have never seen her program and just hearing of her background, send more time will a tad less intensity and more sub threshold work with bi weekly above race pace work.

"One last thing that has occurred to me and I may suggest this to her, but it is hard to approach for a female athlete. I think she may be underweight, she is about 5-10 lbs below her college race weight. I also noticed she is about the same height but below the weight of most of the top females in long-course racing (according to the ST article on height and weight at Kona last year). Not sure if the lower weight is causing the recovery issues, and not sure I want to bring it up lol. She doesn't pay much attention to stuff like that so I don't think it would be good to make it an issue."

Hard to comment without seeing her.... but this is 100% a major issue,for men and women.

qft
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Re: Any ideas coaches? [sentania] [ In reply to ]
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probably needs to rest and recover properly, is likely on the brink of over training syndrome and clearly over reaching. back off, get her tested professionally to see where she she be training and follow here resting HR.
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Re: Any ideas coaches? [Tulkas] [ In reply to ]
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You need to be more tuned in to her recovery. She is not recovered.
The problem is you think she is tired when she has a PR and you don't when she tanks a workout.
Your perception of her recovery state does not match reality.

Quote:
..I would expect an athlete capable of 13.1 miles at 6:34 with no rest would be capable of 6.2 miles at 7:00 with very little effort. To put it into perspective, a few weeks ago we did a long (14 mile) run together and intended it to be comfortable pace, ended up pushing each other a bit (still only upper Z2 low Z3 roughly) and averaged 7:08 for the run. ....
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Re: Any ideas coaches? [Tulkas] [ In reply to ]
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How new of a mother? (Congrats, btw!) Pregnancy throws a ton of things out of whack, she may just not yet be back to normal.

John



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Re: Any ideas coaches? [Tulkas] [ In reply to ]
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I have a toddler the same age as yours, and I went through something similar about 3 months ago. My doctor said my fatigue after workouts/the total inability to recover was tied to my severe anemia. Apparently, it can take a woman's body a good amount of time (a year or more) to rebuild iron stores lost through pregnancy and breastfeeding, particularly if a woman breastfeeds for more than 6 months, and the effects of iron store depletion can take a while to set in. I don't understand why it took so long to really hit me - my recovery and fatigue issues didn't hit until 4-5 months after I had stopped nursing - but I think it could be because I was holding back a lot more in workouts while I was still nursing (for reasons that all of you men likely don't want to hear about). I would encourage her to have a blood test to see if any levels are off.
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Re: Any ideas coaches? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
I coach myself and my wife as well (just cycling), and I have noticed that high intensity work can wear her our more than it does me. I could do a week with lots of high high intensity 4 times a week and feel fine.

Similar situation here with my wife. We both do road cycling and we quickly determined that it doesn't work for her to do the same proportion of intensity as I do. If I'm riding 10 hours (just to use an easy figure) in a week I can do 40% tempo, 30% threshold and 30% recovery/endurance pretty much week in, week out. What we have found is that she needs to keep it closer to 20% threshold and over 50% recovery/endurance.

Our running theory on this is that I have a desk job that gives me better recovery, whereas she is the primary on minding the home & kids which has her on her feet more than me throughout the day. In my defense, I take up night time kid duties but regardless of the cause the key here is to experiment with the right proportion. Everyone has off days but if you talk together about how the workouts are going gradually you find a pattern between the right amount of rest and intensity to produce consistent quality workouts. Best luck to the OP on this.
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Re: Any ideas coaches? [Tulkas] [ In reply to ]
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Sorry if I missed this what distances are you training for??
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Re: Any ideas coaches? [dogmile] [ In reply to ]
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dogmile wrote:
You need to be more tuned in to her recovery. She is not recovered.
The problem is you think she is tired when she has a PR and you don't when she tanks a workout.
Your perception of her recovery state does not match reality.


I believe you are right about that (clearly), though my perception is based off training history and her statements. And the days she has PRd (both running races and hitting new numbers on the 20 minute test) have pretty much all been days when she said she felt bad/tired, especially on the bike. Also she is pretty good about aborting a workout if she isn't going to make it. She will either cut the volume down or lower the intensity, but that happens a lot recently. We are both fully aware that slogging through a failed hard workout is worse than just taking an easy recovery session.

And to the commenter who asked what distances we train for; we were both training for a tentative 70.3 (we were only going to do it if we felt like training was on course), but it was really just a carrot to make us push our endurance a little in the winter. Our primary focus for the season is an Olympic distance race late in the summer. With the recent struggles she has aborted the 70.3 plans and is only training for OLY distance. Either way, our biggest volume weeks have always been less than 15 hours, normally 10ish per week.

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Last edited by: Tulkas: Apr 17, 14 16:51
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