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Re: How Many Hours Per Week to get good at a single sport? [pararescue] [ In reply to ]
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pararescue wrote:
I have to beg to differ with many of the prior posts. I played division 1 football as a 6ft 6 in 260lb tight end and quit due to a lack of interest. I than dreamed of joining the special forces, when I met with the sof recruiters they all told me I was to big and would never make the selection. I did not know how to swim and could only run 1, 8min mile. I changed my entire training routine and read every triathalon training program I could get my hands on. I went to the pool and the first day swam 25m and almost drown. the masters program watched me suffer and 1 day said come swim with us everyday and just try your hardest and we will work with you when the workout is done. I suffered everyday choking gagging and over a 3 month period progressed very quickly. by month 4 I swam a 28 min 1500m. when I completed my daily pool session I would take a 2 hr break and do road work, 800m 400m 220m and long slow distance work. I would stick in bleacher work on occasion to mix it up for fun. I would than take another 2 hr break and hit the gym for an hour doing light weights high reps.i droped 23 lbs and entered the 12 week conditioning phase, upon graduation I ran 18 miles at an 8.5min pace and ran 7 mile at a 6.45 min pace. I than did 17 pullups, 77 push ups in 2min and 84 sit ups in 2 min. I also finned 2500m in under 70 min. the daily training was brutal to say the least and the most difficult event was the 50m underwater on 1 breath. if you can stay injury free and consume enough calories to feed a horse THE HUMAN BODY CAN ADAPT TO ALMOST ANYTHING YOU THROW AT IT. yes I was in my prime at 24 when I went through this training and am now 48 and broken, BUT ALL THE EXPERTS SAID IT COULD NOT BE DONE AND THAT ALONE WAS MY DRIVING FORCE... GOD SPEED KEN SMITH..

I will assume you made it into the PJ's by your name. Good job for not listening to the recruiters. Just to clarify, Special Forces and PJ's are different entities.

Formerly TriBrad02
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Re: How Many Hours Per Week to get good at a single sport? [TriBrad02] [ In reply to ]
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that is correct but to the layman if I were to say PJ they would have no idea what I was talking about. yes I did make it and completed us army special forces combat dive school, us army static line jump school, us army special forces freefall school and us army air assault school. I also attended many other courses given at the john f kennedy warfare center, fort bragg N.C. and was than assigned to an army unit. cheers ken
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Re: How Many Hours Per Week to get good at a single sport? [pararescue] [ In reply to ]
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just to clarify another point, the 12 week conditioning school is to prepare the individual for the 6 week S.F. combat dive school. Im not here to discuss spec-ops schools but to just point out that swim run and bike times can be reduced through consistant repetitive scientifically proven programs in conjunction with good nutrition. yes genetics are a major player but they can be countered through sheer determination and that was my point. THE NUMBERS DONT LIE...
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Re: How Many Hours Per Week to get good at a single sport? [PeteDin206] [ In reply to ]
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PeteDin206 wrote:
ericmulk wrote:

These athletes must not want to be the best that they can be since, if they did, then they'd be training their little butts off in the pool during the off-season to get their swim times as low as possible:)


Because long course triathlon is a swim meet first and foremost right?

As I remember, Rinny usually comes out of the water about 8 minutes back from the first group of swimmers. Not saying people shouldn't swim, but it is a lot easier to knock 10+ minutes off the bike and 5+ minutes off the run than it is to knock 3 minutes off the swim.

I'll bet Rinny is still trying to improve her swim though, as i'm sure she would prefer to come out with the lead female swimmers. I'll bet she's not making any excuses like "but i have to drive to the pool whereas i can run right from my house." I'll bet she's not taking 4 or 5 months off from swimming every year, as Maurice alluded to in his post that i responded to, but rather i'll bet Rinny swims 12 months/year.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: How Many Hours Per Week to get good at a single sport? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
PeteDin206 wrote:
ericmulk wrote:

These athletes must not want to be the best that they can be since, if they did, then they'd be training their little butts off in the pool during the off-season to get their swim times as low as possible:)


Because long course triathlon is a swim meet first and foremost right?

As I remember, Rinny usually comes out of the water about 8 minutes back from the first group of swimmers. Not saying people shouldn't swim, but it is a lot easier to knock 10+ minutes off the bike and 5+ minutes off the run than it is to knock 3 minutes off the swim.


I'll bet Rinny is still trying to improve her swim though, as i'm sure she would prefer to come out with the lead female swimmers. I'll bet she's not making any excuses like "but i have to drive to the pool whereas i can run right from my house." I'll bet she's not taking 4 or 5 months off from swimming every year, as Maurice alluded to in his post that i responded to, but rather i'll bet Rinny swims 12 months/year.


I'n not sure if you read my posts or not but I don't recall making "excuses" for myself or any one of my athletes.

I was simply saying that for a certain special block of swimming will likely "stick" with the athlete more than the other two sports. Swimming is an endurance sport but also a "skill" sport, certain periods of elevated milage will tend to elicit a better training response which sticks year over year compared to B&R.

Case in point the athlete who went 1:22 at IM last year went 1:18 this year, we swam less or more normal….IE 8-10km per week than last year but the benefits in terms of execution/feel etc stuck.

My other point was that…and this is the harsh reality for you, most of the other 7 billion people on the planet don't love swimming as much as you do, or at least don't place as much emphasis or importance on it. For say IM training, it is important but less so than B and R (depending on a certain few and select athletes-maybe Rinny)

So my comment regarding 6 hours of running from my house vs 3 hours of swimming and what the time vs net benefit is, say for most triathletes (especially IM athletes) that is fairly obvious and well understood…. if you had to pick one or the other.

Maurice
Last edited by: mauricemaher: Aug 7, 14 16:28
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Re: How Many Hours Per Week to get good at a single sport? [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]
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mauricemaher wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
PeteDin206 wrote:
ericmulk wrote:

These athletes must not want to be the best that they can be since, if they did, then they'd be training their little butts off in the pool during the off-season to get their swim times as low as possible:)


Because long course triathlon is a swim meet first and foremost right?

As I remember, Rinny usually comes out of the water about 8 minutes back from the first group of swimmers. Not saying people shouldn't swim, but it is a lot easier to knock 10+ minutes off the bike and 5+ minutes off the run than it is to knock 3 minutes off the swim.


I'll bet Rinny is still trying to improve her swim though, as i'm sure she would prefer to come out with the lead female swimmers. I'll bet she's not making any excuses like "but i have to drive to the pool whereas i can run right from my house." I'll bet she's not taking 4 or 5 months off from swimming every year, as Maurice alluded to in his post that i responded to, but rather i'll bet Rinny swims 12 months/year.


I'n not sure if you read my posts or not but I don't recall making "excuses" for myself or any one of my athletes. I was simply saying that for a certain special block of swimming will likely "stick" with the athlete more than the other two sports. Swimming is an endurance sport but also a "skill" sport, certain periods of elevated milage will tend to elicit a better training response which sticks year over year compared to B&R. Case in point the athlete who went 1:22 at IM last year went 1:18 this year, we swam less or more normal….IE 8-10km per week than last year but the benefits in terms of execution/feel etc stuck.
My other point was that…and this is the harsh reality for you, most of the other 7 billion people on the planet don't love swimming as much as you do, or at least don't place as much emphasis or importance on it. For say IM training, it is important but less so than B and R (depending on a certain few and select athletes-maybe Rinny)
So my comment regarding 6 hours of running from my house vs 3 hours of swimming and what the time vs net benefit is, say for most triathletes (especially IM athletes) that is fairly obvious and well understood…. if you had to pick one or the other. Maurice

Certainly I agree that skill in swimming will generally increase with consistent training, and I understand that most of the 7 billion don't love swimming. However, if and this is a big IF, a person wants to do their very best in triathlon, then they will do whatever it takes and swim as much as they need to get to where they can hang with the fast swimmers to the best of their ability. And the issue about extra time needed to go to swim, ummm, well, I guess you guys like never leave your house to go to your work place, school, etc. I've been swimming year-round for 30 effing yrs, since age 12, in about 10 diff cities/towns, small and large, and there has always been a pool somewhere on my way to or from my school or work place, with it taking maybe 10 min extra to get to the pool. Also, in the numerous times I've heard this excuse, and it is an excuse, people also say they have to change to swim. Umm, well, you have to change clothes to bike and run also don't you??? Obviously you do not agree but in my opinion, the whole "but I have to go the pool" is just one more excuse for not swimming well.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: How Many Hours Per Week to get good at a single sport? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I hate changing for the bike. HR monitor, fiddly bike pants, chamois cream, fiddly shoes, tight top, gloves, helmet, sunnies, sun cream when outside......
Swimming is just the strip, togs on, googles and cap, dive in.
I just wish I'd started young so it would be as natural and easy as running. Even bike riding is easy to do from scratch but obviously requires lots of work to get fast for long periods. Swimming is far and away the hardest to master though the other two do provide the best bang for buck in terms of time in equalling less time overall in a race. Now if the swim leg was of a similar time to the other two.....
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Re: How Many Hours Per Week to get good at a single sport? [gunsbuns] [ In reply to ]
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gunsbuns wrote:
I hate changing for the bike. HR monitor, fiddly bike pants, chamois cream, fiddly shoes, tight top, gloves, helmet, sunnies, sun cream when outside......
Swimming is just the strip, togs on, goggles and cap, dive in.
I just wish I'd started young so it would be as natural and easy as running. Even bike riding is easy to do from scratch but obviously requires lots of work to get fast for long periods. Swimming is far and away the hardest to master though the other two do provide the best bang for buck in terms of time in equaling less time overall in a race. Now if the swim leg was of a similar time to the other two.....

Ya, but that would make the races way too hard, espec the iron races, since you'd need like a 10K swim. We wouldn't want to make the iron races too hard now, would we???


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: How Many Hours Per Week to get good at a single sport? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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I'd never say they (IM's) are easy but you have to question the difficulty when 3000+ regularly finish and many look remarkably fresh. Now a 10km swim, 180km ride and mara - that would be a serious test and would require more than sound swimming skill and endurance. But then WTC wouldn't make as much money would they. But 10 km would scare the shit out of me.
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Re: How Many Hours Per Week to get good at a single sport? [gunsbuns] [ In reply to ]
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gunsbuns wrote:
I'd never say they (IM's) are easy but you have to question the difficulty when 3000+ regularly finish and many look remarkably fresh. Now a 10km swim, 180km ride and mara - that would be a serious test and would require more than sound swimming skill and endurance. But then WTC wouldn't make as much money would they. But 10 km swim would scare the shit out of me.

You've hit the proverbial nail:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: How Many Hours Per Week to get good at a single sport? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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ericmulk wrote:
mauricemaher wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
PeteDin206 wrote:
ericmulk wrote:

These athletes must not want to be the best that they can be since, if they did, then they'd be training their little butts off in the pool during the off-season to get their swim times as low as possible:)


Because long course triathlon is a swim meet first and foremost right?

As I remember, Rinny usually comes out of the water about 8 minutes back from the first group of swimmers. Not saying people shouldn't swim, but it is a lot easier to knock 10+ minutes off the bike and 5+ minutes off the run than it is to knock 3 minutes off the swim.


I'll bet Rinny is still trying to improve her swim though, as i'm sure she would prefer to come out with the lead female swimmers. I'll bet she's not making any excuses like "but i have to drive to the pool whereas i can run right from my house." I'll bet she's not taking 4 or 5 months off from swimming every year, as Maurice alluded to in his post that i responded to, but rather i'll bet Rinny swims 12 months/year.


I'n not sure if you read my posts or not but I don't recall making "excuses" for myself or any one of my athletes. I was simply saying that for a certain special block of swimming will likely "stick" with the athlete more than the other two sports. Swimming is an endurance sport but also a "skill" sport, certain periods of elevated milage will tend to elicit a better training response which sticks year over year compared to B&R. Case in point the athlete who went 1:22 at IM last year went 1:18 this year, we swam less or more normal….IE 8-10km per week than last year but the benefits in terms of execution/feel etc stuck.
My other point was that…and this is the harsh reality for you, most of the other 7 billion people on the planet don't love swimming as much as you do, or at least don't place as much emphasis or importance on it. For say IM training, it is important but less so than B and R (depending on a certain few and select athletes-maybe Rinny)
So my comment regarding 6 hours of running from my house vs 3 hours of swimming and what the time vs net benefit is, say for most triathletes (especially IM athletes) that is fairly obvious and well understood…. if you had to pick one or the other. Maurice


Certainly I agree that skill in swimming will generally increase with consistent training, and I understand that most of the 7 billion don't love swimming. However, if and this is a big IF, a person wants to do their very best in triathlon, then they will do whatever it takes and swim as much as they need to get to where they can hang with the fast swimmers to the best of their ability. And the issue about extra time needed to go to swim, ummm, well, I guess you guys like never leave your house to go to your work place, school, etc. I've been swimming year-round for 30 effing yrs, since age 12, in about 10 diff cities/towns, small and large, and there has always been a pool somewhere on my way to or from my school or work place, with it taking maybe 10 min extra to get to the pool. Also, in the numerous times I've heard this excuse, and it is an excuse, people also say they have to change to swim. Umm, well, you have to change clothes to bike and run also don't you??? Obviously you do not agree but in my opinion, the whole "but I have to go the pool" is just one more excuse for not swimming well.


Don't get me wrong, after 20 years in the sport I have no issue with more swimming. in 1997 I did my first IM and I was 300th or something out of the water swimming 1:04 or so This year I was about 1:04 and in the top 100 or so. In a relative sense the IM times in the B and R have changed… a lot maybe by 20 minutes (faster) or so while swim times have gotten slower(in a relative sense).

basically what you are saying is just HTFU and go swim more, to a certain degree I could respect that….if a person saw value in that, I understand you swim, like 600 days a year at 12km per day or something like that. I think thats great, do what you want but keep in mind that people may have slightly different circumstances or goals than you. They do more longer distance tri's and you just swim. Or they might want to win there AG or get to Kona etc, as I said before when an athlete goes from say a 1:39 swim in 2008 to a 1:28 in 2012 then a 1:22 last year and then a 1:18 this year that is pretty reasonable progression.

And the key point is a reasonable progression based on time invested.

Swimming more at the expense of other sports is a recipe for finishing lower (or slower etc),What was that old saying?

"training is not the proposal but the answer to the proposal"

when I talk to an athlete..say 8 months out (or 10 or 12 etc) the question is always where do you want to be next year, in the middle there are short term and long term goals, none of which include:

"I want to swim awesome and have a shitty bike and run"

I am not sure if you are understanding my point, what I am saying is that AG athletes who may be in management, have 3 kids, doing their PHD, live 100km from the nearest pool on the shittiest northern canadian roads known to man, etc may prioritize other things ahead of swimming.

Like I say, no big deal. if you love swimming then just…..keep on swimming and do what you do.

Maurice
Last edited by: mauricemaher: Aug 7, 14 23:47
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Re: How Many Hours Per Week to get good at a single sport? [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]
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mauricemaher wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
mauricemaher wrote:
ericmulk wrote:
PeteDin206 wrote:
ericmulk wrote:

These athletes must not want to be the best that they can be since, if they did, then they'd be training their little butts off in the pool during the off-season to get their swim times as low as possible:)


Because long course triathlon is a swim meet first and foremost right?

As I remember, Rinny usually comes out of the water about 8 minutes back from the first group of swimmers. Not saying people shouldn't swim, but it is a lot easier to knock 10+ minutes off the bike and 5+ minutes off the run than it is to knock 3 minutes off the swim.


I'll bet Rinny is still trying to improve her swim though, as i'm sure she would prefer to come out with the lead female swimmers. I'll bet she's not making any excuses like "but i have to drive to the pool whereas i can run right from my house." I'll bet she's not taking 4 or 5 months off from swimming every year, as Maurice alluded to in his post that i responded to, but rather i'll bet Rinny swims 12 months/year.


I'n not sure if you read my posts or not but I don't recall making "excuses" for myself or any one of my athletes. I was simply saying that for a certain special block of swimming will likely "stick" with the athlete more than the other two sports. Swimming is an endurance sport but also a "skill" sport, certain periods of elevated mileage will tend to elicit a better training response which sticks year over year compared to B&R. Case in point the athlete who went 1:22 at IM last year went 1:18 this year, we swam less or more normal….IE 8-10km per week than last year but the benefits in terms of execution/feel etc stuck.
My other point was that…and this is the harsh reality for you, most of the other 7 billion people on the planet don't love swimming as much as you do, or at least don't place as much emphasis or importance on it. For say IM training, it is important but less so than B and R (depending on a certain few and select athletes-maybe Rinny)
So my comment regarding 6 hours of running from my house vs 3 hours of swimming and what the time vs net benefit is, say for most triathletes (especially IM athletes) that is fairly obvious and well understood…. if you had to pick one or the other. Maurice


Certainly I agree that skill in swimming will generally increase with consistent training, and I understand that most of the 7 billion don't love swimming. However, if and this is a big IF, a person wants to do their very best in triathlon, then they will do whatever it takes and swim as much as they need to get to where they can hang with the fast swimmers to the best of their ability. And the issue about extra time needed to go to swim, ummm, well, I guess you guys like never leave your house to go to your work place, school, etc. I've been swimming year-round for 30 effing yrs, since age 12, in about 10 diff cities/towns, small and large, and there has always been a pool somewhere on my way to or from my school or work place, with it taking maybe 10 min extra to get to the pool. Also, in the numerous times I've heard this excuse, and it is an excuse, people also say they have to change to swim. Umm, well, you have to change clothes to bike and run also don't you??? Obviously you do not agree but in my opinion, the whole "but I have to go the pool" is just one more excuse for not swimming well.


Don't get me wrong, after 20 years in the sport I have no issue with more swimming. in 1997 I did my first IM and I was 300th or something out of the water swimming 1:04 or so This year I was about 1:04 and in the top 100 or so. In a relative sense the IM times in the B and R have changed… a lot maybe by 20 minutes (faster) or so while swim times have gotten slower(in a relative sense).
basically what you are saying is just HTFU and go swim more, to a certain degree I could respect that….if a person saw value in that, I understand you swim, like 600 days a year at 12km per day or something like that. I think thats great, do what you want but keep in mind that people may have slightly different circumstances or goals than you. They do more longer distance tri's and you just swim. Or they might want to win there AG or get to Kona etc, as I said before when an athlete goes from say a 1:39 swim in 2008 to a 1:28 in 2012 then a 1:22 last year and then a 1:18 this year that is pretty reasonable progression. And the key point is a reasonable progression based on time invested.
Swimming more at the expense of other sports is a recipe for finishing lower (or slower etc),What was that old saying? "training is not the proposal but the answer to the proposal"
when I talk to an athlete..say 8 months out (or 10 or 12 etc) the question is always where do you want to be next year, in the middle there are short term and long term goals, none of which include:
"I want to swim awesome and have a shitty bike and run"
I am not sure if you are understanding my point, what I am saying is that AG athletes who may be in management, have 3 kids, doing their PHD, live 100km from the nearest pool on the shittiest northern Canadian roads known to man, etc may prioritize other things ahead of swimming.
Like I say, no big deal. if you love swimming then just…..keep on swimming and do what you do.
Maurice

IIRC, I did say that my views are premised on the desire to be the very best triathlete you can be. Clearly a person with many priorities ahead of triathlon does not meet that proviso. OTOH, I do know one guy who has 3 kids and works in mgmt, but still manages to train 24 hr/wk, 6 sw/12 bk/6 rn. It helps that his wife is an excellent swimmer and all 3 kids are into swimming, so they all just go to the pool together on the weekends, and there are several convenient pools. He rides his trainer at home and runs on the T-mill at home so he's "available" to his family a fair amount.

The only other comment I will make is that lightheir and some others seem to have had great success using the Vasa trainer to "swim" at home w/o having to go the pool, as detailed in this thread:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=5199023#5199023

The mythical guy with 3 kids, mgmt job, working on his PhD, and living 100 km from the nearest pool across terrible northern Canadian roads, could in theory get the vasa swim trainer, bike trainer, and T-mill and train all 3 sports at home:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: How Many Hours Per Week to get good at a single sport? [Cheesy Bottom] [ In reply to ]
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Cheesy Bottom wrote:
EDIT: Sorry this has caused some confusion. This questionis hypothetical, and not about me.

Assume that I just started running (no biking) and I am starting from crappy slow form that most real runners would cringe and say "That's called running?"

With that said, how many miles or hours per week do I have to work up to, in running, and for how long will I have to do that much per week to get fast at 1 to 1.5 hour runs? Fast being finishing in the top 25% or so.

****My purpose in asking this, is that I think that poor swimmers who wish to get fast, don't really accept the pool time price that simply must be paid at some point in your life.****

I suspect the "road time price" that must be paid to become a fast runner, both in hours per week, and how long it must be paid, is probably not tremendously different than the "pool time price" for swimming.

EDIT: Hopefully the people trying to improve their swim can learn from this, and accept the "pool time price" in this context.


I can potentially add some insight here since I did this very thing. ~4 years ago I went full swim.

I went from maybe 2-3 unfocused swims a week maybe 5k worth to 6 swims and have worked my way into the mid 20's. I reached into the low 30's a couple of times earlier this summer, but it ceased to be fun so I backed off to 25ish and that keeps me happy and hungry for more. I also do 2 each 1 1/2 hour dry land sessions a week. Now then, in the world of swimming I don't consider myself good. Far from it I'm incredibly average. That said I have improved so much in these 4 years I can hardly wait to get to the pool every day....vast improvements. So, I added a ton more swimming, some dry land and while I have improved and keep improving I'm nowhere near 'good' in the swim world. I'm really good compared to what I used to be though and that keeps me fired up!
Last edited by: tigerpaws: Aug 8, 14 9:57
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Re: How Many Hours Per Week to get good at a single sport? [ericmulk] [ In reply to ]
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How useful is the vasa swim trainer, really? Youtube videos show an incomplete stroke, no torso rotation and no kicking.
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Re: How Many Hours Per Week to get good at a single sport? [JSully] [ In reply to ]
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JSully wrote:
How useful is the vasa swim trainer, really? Youtube videos show an incomplete stroke, no torso rotation and no kicking.

I hear you and have voiced similar concerns. However, lightheir swears that he has made great improvement. See the thread below and you'll see numerous posts documenting his progression from swimming 1:35/100 yd on 1:50 down to 1:25/100 yd on 1:40, with only 2 real swims per week of 30-45 min supplemented by 6 hrs or so per week on the Vasa.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/..._latest_reply;so=ASC


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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