What are your definitions of the 2 terms and how do they differ?

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What I do: http://app.strava.com/athletes/345699

The link below to the picture is the definition of both. But in my experience there is a very important difference between the two in the way they are executed. I'm curious as to what others think.

http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com/.../free-2005-11-18.asp

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

You are spot on with that, in my opinion MOST of the popular swim writing uses swim terms so fuzzy as to be useless, I include these two terms in that statement.

My take is that we as coaches need to do better job at conveying what we mean to other coaches and then on to swimmers.

Taking early vertical forearm as an example, what does that mean exactly? What does early mean in this context at what point in the adduction and extension at the shoulder should a swimmer's forearm be vertical? "early" isn't really useful. By the same token, vertical in this case doesn't really mean vertical, it means verticalish. So assuming I have the intended meaning correct, I need to now convey it to a swimmer. There is very little chance to convey the meaning of such an ill-defined term across three interfaces of communication.

High elbow pull is nearly as bad, just look at how many questions come up here on it. I'll give these guys credit for giving it a go, https://ojs.ub.uni-konstanz.de/...e/viewFile/1951/1819; though I find it interesting that only one swimmer out of 16 had what would undeniably be called a high elbow pull.

Now, with that said; if you have better definitions of those terms; shoot - let us all in on it!

Well, y'all have thoroughly muddied up those waters. Nothing like an esoteric argument over what words mean. I suspect your students get confused when you speak too.

I use videos of me and my coach. If he can't show me what he is trying to teach ... then all those words are useless.

What I was getting at with this post was the execution of the two based on the language. What I see happen with a lot of triathletes that learn about EVF is that they just try to get their forearm in a "vertical" position at the start of the catch. The problem is they totally ignore the catch part of the stroke. They skip right to the EVF without holding any water. There is no catch.

This is why I think that a High Elbow Catch has more value in learning and understanding than EVF. If you have a High Elbow Catch then you are thinking about the catch at the start of the stroke before the high elbow. It's a small distinction but an important one for athletes that are trying to swim better and understand a very important phase of the stroke.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

I purposefully don't get into all that with my swimmers in the squad setting. My most common instruction to get your elbows pointing outwards, not down or back. We also use sculling, some paddles and open / closed fist work to help them get a good feel for the water. Also some lat stretching on the ball and a touch of internal rotation stretching to allow them to find their own good catch.

Rushing into a a textbook good catch can get people injured if their bodies aren't ready for it.


That was my point, if the concept isn't clear to the coach then it can't possibly be helpful to the swimmer.

I've always considered them to be 2 interpretations of the same concept, that being - you want to be pushing the water backwards, not down. I would definitely agree that it has been described that you shouldn't try and catch the water before achieving a vertical forearm, but I don't recall where exactly. Personally I consider it a waste to miss that first part of the pull, although it did take a long time to develop the strength and flexibility required to achieve it, and as such it may not be suitable for beginners.

I would agree that it takes a long time to develop the strength, flexibility and feel for the water to get a good stroke. I wouldn't agree with not "catching" the water "before achieving a vertical forearm." The second your hand enters the water you should be looking to get pressure on it.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Tim,

to give you some feedback on the subject.

i have never heard of EVF in my career of athlete. I had lot of triathlon coaches and also swim coaches. They all talk over and over about catch and high elbow...over and over

i m interested to hear your definition of both.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

So you are not a proponent of front quadrant swimming then? Because wouldn't instant pressure on the hand imply that you are slapping your arm down and continuing into the stroke with a rotary stroke pattern? Otherwise you would be applying unnecessary force on the hand during the extension. Or maybe this is the fuzzy Kev mentions?

Jonathan,

Good to know. After hanging out with a lot of triathletes and checking out the forum posts over the last several years all I heard them talking about was EVF. I rarely heard high elbow catch. And when I finally looked up what EVF meant I figured out they were talking about a high elbow catch. When I started to coach triathletes in the swim, I noticed that the ones that talked about EVF would try to get the forearm vertical without thinking about the pressure on the water on their hand or the catch at the start of the stroke. The point I'm making is that the catch really starts before the forearm is vertical and the ability to hold the water before your forearm is vertical is important and I've seen it overlooked when athletes try to implement Early Vertical Forearm.

The definition for both is the same. The elbow is high at the start of the pull and through it. But there is an important distinction to make when talking about getting to the vertical forearm position or high elbow. The catch is going on before the elbow gets high or the forearm vertical. In my mind, high elbow catch is a better description or phrase since it emphasizes and highlights the catch phase of the stroke.

Tim

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Front quadrant swimming - depends on the swimmer and the circumstances and I'm not following the connection you are trying to make. No, instant pressure doesn't dictate stroke style. Getting pressure on the hand as soon as it enters the water is what good swimmers do regardless of swimming style. And if you are talking about the extension and not having pressure on it, then you are falling down in the water and shortening your water line.

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Would that be downhill swimming?

Are you asking if you should be over the stroke?

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http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com

Well now that you've cleared up the definition of EVF, maybe you could take on a few I just read recently:

1. "falling down in the water"
2. "shortening your waterline"
3. "over the stroke"

Got these from a swim coach...geez those guys have trouble communicating!

Watch Grant Hackett's left arm in particular. That is textbook EVF, pretty worthless for triathlete IMO. You have to be really strong and stable to do this.

High elbow to me simply means your elbow is above your hand when pulling.

But, I really think that most triathletes would be served more trying straight arm under water initially than anything. It's more straight forward and seemingly easier to understand or at least coach. If that approach is taken, then I would agree that the second your had enters the water, you are looking for resistance of some type.

Me, even having been an ok high school/non-college swimmer, and being a follower of tri and swim for a LONG time, never heard 'high elbow catch' or 'EVF' until I followed ST more closely.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

They're probably trying to sell something or create solutions for problems that don't exist.

I just know that #1 happens if I trip near the pool.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

I think you'd make a pretty good masters swim coach.

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. I didn't say time was trying to sell something. Nor did I say he was creating a solution to a problem that didn't exist.

I was replying to GregN about 3 items that his swim coach said. Maybe GregN is coached by Tim, I don't know.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Sorry, didn't see who you replied to. Post-workout daze. Post deleted.

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Read post #13 & #15