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Finally a RD is addressing Swim Safety

 

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daisy

Apr 3, 13 12:10

Post #1 of 29 (2870 views)
Finally a RD is addressing Swim Safety Quote | Reply

Here is a press release about Rev3. It looks like they are leading the way and making changes to address the swim safety issue. It's about time someone did this.
http://endurancesportswire.com/rev3-implements-water-safety-initiative-for-2013-races/?utm_source=Endurance+Sportswire+Newsletter&utm_campaign=a37529ec85-ESW+Wed.+4%2F3%2F13&utm_medium=email

Website: http//http://www.Fearlessswimming.com
Ironman Series Books: "Ironplanner" "Weight Management For Triathletes""Fearless Swimming For Triathletes""Functional Strength For Triathletes"


ChrisM

Apr 3, 13 12:14

Post #2 of 29 (2843 views)
Re: Finally a RD is addressing Swim Safety [daisy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I like that it's focusing not only on event safety but also on emphasizing to the participants that they have to be ready for the distance.


TriBeer

Apr 3, 13 12:41

Post #3 of 29 (2752 views)
Re: Finally a RD is addressing Swim Safety [daisy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Nice!


TriPigeon

Apr 3, 13 12:49

Post #4 of 29 (2706 views)
Re: Finally a RD is addressing Swim Safety [daisy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thanks for reposting this, really great to see a company looking ahead to solve this issue now before it gets out of hand.
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Cervelo Apple

Apr 3, 13 13:03

Post #5 of 29 (2633 views)
Re: Finally a RD is addressing Swim Safety [daisy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

but what are these swim deaths related to? I didn't think it was due to drowning but due to underlying conditions. More lifeguards won't help with that and not to be brutal but I doubt more time would have even helped either.

I would support health screenings at races though.

I tried to get a heart examination one year. Couldn't. Needed a family connection to even get me an appointment. Costs around $400. No one will do that. Only people are pros and they have sponsors pay for it.


Pooks

Apr 3, 13 13:06

Post #6 of 29 (2608 views)
Re: Finally a RD is addressing Swim Safety [Cervelo Apple] (Deleted by Pooks) [In reply to]

 


LostNTransition

Apr 3, 13 13:18

Post #7 of 29 (2567 views)
Re: Finally a RD is addressing Swim Safety [Cervelo Apple] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Cervelo Apple wrote:
but what are these swim deaths related to? I didn't think it was due to drowning but due to underlying conditions. More lifeguards won't help with that and not to be brutal but I doubt more time would have even helped either.

I would support health screenings at races though.

I tried to get a heart examination one year. Couldn't. Needed a family connection to even get me an appointment. Costs around $400. No one will do that. Only people are pros and they have sponsors pay for it.

Lifeguards can do more than pull you out of the water. They can get you to shore, and perform CPR etc.

More training, or even more lifeguards, has the potential to save lives. More so than changing the start type IMHO.


Cervelo Apple

Apr 3, 13 13:22

Post #8 of 29 (2546 views)
Re: Finally a RD is addressing Swim Safety [LostNTransition] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

LostNTransition wrote:
Cervelo Apple wrote:
but what are these swim deaths related to? I didn't think it was due to drowning but due to underlying conditions. More lifeguards won't help with that and not to be brutal but I doubt more time would have even helped either.

I would support health screenings at races though.

I tried to get a heart examination one year. Couldn't. Needed a family connection to even get me an appointment. Costs around $400. No one will do that. Only people are pros and they have sponsors pay for it.


Lifeguards can do more than pull you out of the water. They can get you to shore, and perform CPR etc.

More training, or even more lifeguards, has the potential to save lives. More so than changing the start type IMHO.

well that's the thing, if you are 1/4 mile from short in a lake, a lifeguard in a kayak just won't be enough. By time you get to shore, its easily another 5 minutes.

I do know at some races they have platoons cruising around. Now that can help a a lot. put one in the inside of the swim loop, and now you have a hard surface platform.


daisy

Apr 3, 13 16:26

Post #9 of 29 (2329 views)
Re: Finally a RD is addressing Swim Safety [Cervelo Apple] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

 
I am not an M.D.but I did research and write quite a lot about this issue in my Fearless Swimming book a few years ago.......

What is groundbreaking here is that the RD is sending multiple warnings/information/training opportunities to the athletes AND is also having the health screenings.
If you don't get an AED on a cardiac arrest within 2 minutes, the person is unlikely to survive plus the AED won't work on a wet victim laying in puddle of water so you can see how futile the rescue issues are. Prevention is the key and odds are that people are still going to die. I think that triathletes need to realize that they are not invincible. Indeed, endurance athletes may very well be at greater risk for certain heart abnormalities than others.

The best information I have seen on the subject is that the vast majority of deaths have been due to pre-existing heart conditions that were either known or undiagnosed. So the take home is that you need a full cardiac workup to make sure you know what your issues are. That said, a cardio workup can be wrong and of course other medical issues can cause death so having the workup is not a guarantee, it is just a relatively simple first step. I think coaches should be pressing their clients to get this screening as well.

An EKG is standard and it is usually covered by insurance. But and EKG will not necessarily reveal structural abnormalities that can cause sudden cardiac death like we hear about when high school kids drop dead at a football practice. So you need and Echogardiogram and those cost extra. I think even $400 is silly to quibble over as far as cost when your life is at stake. If your doc won't order the Echo you should check out Empfield's article on this site and take advantage of the screenings offered there....or find a SportsMed doc.

As for what is causing the deaths, no one really knows because no one has REALLY investigated causes.The USAT study was (in my opinion) pathetic merely did a bunch number crunching to determine if the number of deaths are unusual given the number of participants. They concluded that the numbers were within norms and looked at correlations, finding a long list of things that do not seem to be related to the deaths (experience, swimming ability, race distance, mass start,SIPE, panic,etc. ---won't rehash them all here.. USAT as the governing body,was obviously concerned more with the liability issues and this study served the purpose of getting them off the hook.

Good info on this is available on Dr. Lawrence Creswell's blog, The Athlete's Heart.

I hope a university will take on this issue and spend a few years really studying the matter. It won't be easy but nothing worthwhile ever is.
Website: http//http://www.Fearlessswimming.com
Ironman Series Books: "Ironplanner" "Weight Management For Triathletes""Fearless Swimming For Triathletes""Functional Strength For Triathletes"


JayZ

Apr 3, 13 16:41

Post #10 of 29 (2294 views)
Re: Finally a RD is addressing Swim Safety [Cervelo Apple] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Cervelo Apple wrote:
LostNTransition wrote:
Cervelo Apple wrote:
but what are these swim deaths related to? I didn't think it was due to drowning but due to underlying conditions. More lifeguards won't help with that and not to be brutal but I doubt more time would have even helped either.

I would support health screenings at races though.

I tried to get a heart examination one year. Couldn't. Needed a family connection to even get me an appointment. Costs around $400. No one will do that. Only people are pros and they have sponsors pay for it.


Lifeguards can do more than pull you out of the water. They can get you to shore, and perform CPR etc.

More training, or even more lifeguards, has the potential to save lives. More so than changing the start type IMHO.

well that's the thing, if you are 1/4 mile from short in a lake, a lifeguard in a kayak just won't be enough. By time you get to shore, its easily another 5 minutes.

I do know at some races they have platoons cruising around. Now that can help a a lot. put one in the inside of the swim loop, and now you have a hard surface platform.

Since a platoon is a group of about 50 soldiers, I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but getting a swimmer in cardiac distress out to a hard platform in the middle of a lake doesn't do anything.

The race is to get a person to definitive care, which is a doctor in a hospital, not to get him out of the water onto a hard surface to perform CPR.


Timtek

Apr 3, 13 17:13

Post #11 of 29 (2206 views)
Re: Finally a RD is addressing Swim Safety [JayZ] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

JayZ wrote:
Since a platoon is a group of about 50 soldiers, I'm not sure exactly what you mean, but getting a swimmer in cardiac distress out to a hard platform in the middle of a lake doesn't do anything.

I took it to mean pontoon boat.
-------------------
Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Twitter


tryguy67

Apr 3, 13 17:16

Post #12 of 29 (2200 views)
Re: Finally a RD is addressing Swim Safety [JayZ] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Think he meant pontoon as in pontoon boat which would get to the shore quickly and provide a flat stable surface for cpr while being transported there and then into a waiting ambulance. Its the best chance they have


JayZ

Apr 3, 13 17:29

Post #13 of 29 (2170 views)
Re: Finally a RD is addressing Swim Safety [tryguy67] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

tryguy67 wrote:
Think he meant pontoon as in pontoon boat which would get to the shore quickly and provide a flat stable surface for cpr while being transported there and then into a waiting ambulance. Its the best chance they have

That would make more sense. Lol.


TheGupster

Apr 3, 13 18:57

Post #14 of 29 (2056 views)
Re: Finally a RD is addressing Swim Safety [JayZ] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

If they screen somebody and then that person dies, wonder if they would be held liable. This is America after-all so they would get sued. I'm guessing their legal counsel has worked something out.

As somebody else asked, can a 'screening' really do anything? Some of these heart conditions can't be diagnosed.


yakimarack

Apr 3, 13 21:16

Post #15 of 29 (1894 views)
Re: Finally a RD is addressing Swim Safety [Cervelo Apple] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Cervelo Apple wrote:
but what are these swim deaths related to? I didn't think it was due to drowning but due to underlying conditions. More lifeguards won't help with that and not to be brutal but I doubt more time would have even helped either.

I would support health screenings at races though.

I tried to get a heart examination one year. Couldn't. Needed a family connection to even get me an appointment. Costs around $400. No one will do that. Only people are pros and they have sponsors pay for it.


Would I have the option for the RD lick my nuts in place of the health screening? That's the only way I would support such a policy.


(This post was edited by cyclops on Apr 3, 13 21:16)


atasic

Apr 4, 13 5:39

Post #16 of 29 (1711 views)
Re: Finally a RD is addressing Swim Safety [daisy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

This is all great. Bottom line, people need to start taking swim training seriously and prepare themselves to swim in a race in United States. Getting off the couch and signing up for IM race with no swim background or training is plain stupid. There is not much of that across the pond in Europe as they do take swim training seriously. Coincidentally, they do not clock nearly as many deaths in the water during race as we do here. Stupidity has got to end.


ditchmedic

Apr 4, 13 6:02

Post #17 of 29 (1674 views)
Re: Finally a RD is addressing Swim Safety [daisy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

daisy wrote:

I am not an M.D.

If you don't get an AED on a cardiac arrest within 2 minutes, the person is unlikely to survive plus the AED won't work on a wet victim laying in puddle of water.

The American Heart Association disagrees with your impeccable research. Current AHA guidelines recommend immediate CPR and AED within 8 minutes. My current pre-hospital protocols require 2 minutes of uninterrupted CPR prior to using an AED.
If it is only 2 minutes, can you explain how someone can call 911, a fire truck and ambulance gets dispatched, drives to someones house and is able to resuscitate a pulseless patient? In my rural community our survival rates for out of hospital cardiac arrest is 9%. In a neighboring urban area they have survival rates for out of hospital cardiac arrest of 24%. Time is very important, but it is more than 2 minutes.


Sorry, but misinformation only leads to more panic.


Mr. October

Apr 4, 13 6:06

Post #18 of 29 (1664 views)
Re: Finally a RD is addressing Swim Safety [guppie58] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

guppie58 wrote:
If they screen somebody and then that person dies, wonder if they would be held liable. This is America after-all so they would get sued. I'm guessing their legal counsel has worked something out.

As somebody else asked, can a 'screening' really do anything? Some of these heart conditions can't be diagnosed.

It won't hurt anything. And while it may not catch some of the past swim deaths . . you never know.

Pete Githens
Reading, PA


Mr. October

Apr 4, 13 6:12

Post #19 of 29 (1651 views)
Re: Finally a RD is addressing Swim Safety [atasic] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

atasic wrote:
This is all great. Bottom line, people need to start taking swim training seriously and prepare themselves to swim in a race in United States. Getting off the couch and signing up for IM race with no swim background or training is plain stupid. There is not much of that across the pond in Europe as they do take swim training seriously. Coincidentally, they do not clock nearly as many deaths in the water during race as we do here. Stupidity has got to end.

+1 . . .
There was a thread not long ago asking why everyone felt obligated to go from couch to IM. People need to realize when you are in that water a LOT can go wrong. Will it? For the vast majority probably not. But if it does, it is a lot more difficult to get help then during the bike or the run and there is a lot less margin for error.

Pete Githens
Reading, PA


Richard Blaine

Apr 4, 13 6:14

Post #20 of 29 (1637 views)
Re: Finally a RD is addressing Swim Safety [cyclops] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

cyclops wrote:
Cervelo Apple wrote:
but what are these swim deaths related to? I didn't think it was due to drowning but due to underlying conditions. More lifeguards won't help with that and not to be brutal but I doubt more time would have even helped either.

I would support health screenings at races though.

I tried to get a heart examination one year. Couldn't. Needed a family connection to even get me an appointment. Costs around $400. No one will do that. Only people are pros and they have sponsors pay for it.


Would I have the option for the RD lick my nuts in place of the health screening? That's the only way I would support such a policy.

Also remember that Cervelo Apple is the same guy that in a different thread is complaining about the rising cost of races. Guess what adding a bunch of RNs/MDs to perform those screenings will do to the price of the race?

I'm happy winter is mostly over. The entertainment factor of this site is rising quite nicely the last couple of days.


Citizen of the world, former drunkard. Resident Traumatic Brain Injury advocate.


BDoughtie

Apr 4, 13 6:15

Post #21 of 29 (1635 views)
Re: Finally a RD is addressing Swim Safety [Mr. October] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I think personal accountability needs to be a factor, but when you essentially have your best race exhibited so that yes you the fat couch potatoe can be an IM too, it kinda sends a mixed message does it not?

Sorta, you better respect the distance, but we will certainly take your money whether you have ever raced or not. Not to say we need race results to move up, but just that it's a bit misleading to say its all on the racer, when the race itself is allowing it to seemingly get to this point as well.

ETA: our sport as an whole does a poor job of promoting proper triathlon development, and we essentially too often simply cater to their needs/desires.
------------------
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USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


(This post was edited by BDoughtie on Apr 4, 13 6:42)


ian moone

Apr 4, 13 6:20

Post #22 of 29 (1619 views)
Re: Finally a RD is addressing Swim Safety [Cervelo Apple] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

we use a pontoon boat, police boats jet skis and kayaks with certified lifeguards, i do respect Rev3 for their action,

we are doing that and have told our athletes to do all of that, we just don't publish it nationwide for publicity

REV3 patern, one crisis is broad up in triathlon, the following week, Rev3 announce they are doing something about it,

i assume most RD are doing something about it, including WTC but don't announce it, just to get publicity,

RD's are not stupid, we are not going to let someone die if we can avoid it.


yakimarack

Apr 4, 13 6:36

Post #23 of 29 (1588 views)
Re: Finally a RD is addressing Swim Safety [Mr. October] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Mr. October wrote:
atasic wrote:
This is all great. Bottom line, people need to start taking swim training seriously and prepare themselves to swim in a race in United States. Getting off the couch and signing up for IM race with no swim background or training is plain stupid. There is not much of that across the pond in Europe as they do take swim training seriously. Coincidentally, they do not clock nearly as many deaths in the water during race as we do here. Stupidity has got to end.


+1 . . .
There was a thread not long ago asking why everyone felt obligated to go from couch to IM. People need to realize when you are in that water a LOT can go wrong. Will it? For the vast majority probably not. But if it does, it is a lot more difficult to get help then during the bike or the run and there is a lot less margin for error.

umm this is wrong, fat people are actually really strong on the swim the extra fat acts as buoyancy. I gotten swam over by some whales before and I'm a pretty fit guy.

You can't just pick one criteria and discriminate because there will always be a good portion of people in that group whom the extra burden of discrimination does not apply too. i.e. fat people who are good at swimming.


daisy

Apr 4, 13 7:29

Post #24 of 29 (1516 views)
Re: Finally a RD is addressing Swim Safety [ditchmedic] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Ooops! Typo..of course it is not 2 minutes. Thanks for correcting that.
Website: http//http://www.Fearlessswimming.com
Ironman Series Books: "Ironplanner" "Weight Management For Triathletes""Fearless Swimming For Triathletes""Functional Strength For Triathletes"


USCoregonian

Apr 4, 13 7:47

Post #25 of 29 (1473 views)
Re: Finally a RD is addressing Swim Safety [daisy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

It's just a matter of time before unproven heart screenings become the norm for entry into events given our litigation-happy culture. Like the WTC move to TT starts, everybody wants to be able to show they are "doing something."

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