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Enve Vs Zipp

 

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3xBAMF

Dec 16, 12 9:24

Post #1 of 70 (11356 views)
Enve Vs Zipp Quote | Reply

Enve 6.7 Clincher or Zipp 404 Firecrest Clincher

Which one and why?


fasterisbetter

Dec 16, 12 10:46

Post #2 of 70 (11221 views)
Re: Enve Vs Zipp [3xBAMF] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

As I understand it, the 6.7 is nearly as aero as the 808 at a lighter weight. That would be my choice. The 404FC/CC has a great carbon clincher rim, maybe better than Enve's - but for a race wheelset you really don't want to use the brakes anymore than absolutely necessary, so as long as they aren't going to be training wheels as well I wouldn't worry overmuch about that. Get some good brake pads that you feel comfortable with and you should be fine.


bobby11

Dec 16, 12 11:08

Post #3 of 70 (11173 views)
Re: Enve Vs Zipp [3xBAMF] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I own a set of Enve 3.4s and Zipp 404 Firecrests. I'd rate the Enve's over the Zipps. I'm not a fan of Zipp's hubs (I've had two wheels go back for hub shells that cracked and allowed spokes to come loose ... or out completely). The Enves you can have built with whatever hubs you want, but with the basic DT Swiss 240s you can't really go wrong. They're quite nice hubs. I think the Enve 3.4s are more comparable to the Zipp 404s than the 6.7s would be.

But my real answer to your question is neither. I have a set of Bontrager Aeolus D3 7s (the new full carbon clincher versions of the Aeolus wheels). I got these in early Fall and I've ridden and raced a lot of miles on them. WOW!!! They really seem to be amazing wheels. I won't go into any specifics because I see that Jackmott is back and, therefore, observations from actual personal experience will be pounced upon and that shit makes me crazy. I can tell you that I had a really great Fall season and I attribute a fair bit of it to the Aeolus D3 7s. Regardless of the tires I've run on them (and I've run Conti GP4000s, Vittoria Open Corsa EVO CX and Bonty R4 Aeros), the ride quality of the wheels just seems to be on another level ... like going from my Honda Element that I drive daily, to the BMW 5 Series I got on a free upgrade at Avis last week. Whoa ... night and day! Check them out for yourself. Actually the Bonty D3 5s are probably the version that's most comparable to Zipp 404s. I'd take my D3 7s over the Enve 6.7s, but that's probably a close call. I'm extrapolating what I've noticed about the ride experience of the 3.4s to the 6.7s.

.

Stay aero my friends.


rroof

Dec 16, 12 11:20

Post #4 of 70 (11148 views)
Re: Enve Vs Zipp [3xBAMF] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I have a large quiver of wheels as well (Hed Jets, Renn, Zipps, Enve) for various types of racing. I would rate the Enve wheels as best for sure (comparing apples to apples that is - i.e. no tubular vs. clincher vs. newer fat rim shape). They are every bit as aero, almost always the lightest, and most definitely the most durable. The trifecta. But alas, they are often the most expensive as well :(

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD


Runless

Dec 16, 12 11:21

Post #5 of 70 (11147 views)
Re: Enve Vs Zipp [bobby11] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

unfortunately, this VN test didn't include 404s, but the Enve's get good marks all around. As do the Bonty 5s.

http://velonews.competitor.com/...uly-results-page.jpg


PeteDin206

Dec 16, 12 12:08

Post #6 of 70 (11077 views)
Re: Enve Vs Zipp [fasterisbetter] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

fasterisbetter wrote:
As I understand it, the 6.7 is nearly as aero as the 808 at a lighter weight. That would be my choice. The 404FC/CC has a great carbon clincher rim, maybe better than Enve's - but for a race wheelset you really don't want to use the brakes anymore than absolutely necessary, so as long as they aren't going to be training wheels as well I wouldn't worry overmuch about that. Get some good brake pads that you feel comfortable with and you should be fine.

Why would you rate the 404FC Clincher over the Enve 6.7 clincher when right before you said the 6.7 is almost as aero as the 808? A number of the reviews (linked below) I've read say the ENVE brake surface is nearly equal to an aluminum counterpart...

http://blog.artscyclery.com/...bon-clincher-review/

http://glorycycles.blogspot.com/...e-ses-67-review.html

http://www.bikeradar.com/...67-wheelset-11-45144

I was having the exact same debate recently and opted for the Enve wheels because of the 5 year warranty and aero benefits over the 404FC. Had they made a 8.9 clincher, that would have been my first choice.


jackmott

Dec 16, 12 12:11

Post #7 of 70 (11065 views)
Re: Enve Vs Zipp [bobby11] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Hey, some personal experience is great - like 2 cracked hubs, as long as they still use those hubs, perfectly valid experience to share.

As to the great fall season being due to the wheels, well I had a great fall season on HED Jets ;)


To the OP - the zipps will probably be more stable in nasty crosswinds, though at that depth most of us wouldn't be bothered by either wheel at all.

I would refer to various public wind tunnel tests to take a guess at which is more aero.

and then I would get HED Jet's because I like metal brake tracks ;)





bobby11 wrote:
I own a set of Enve 3.4s and Zipp 404 Firecrests. I'd rate the Enve's over the Zipps. I'm not a fan of Zipp's hubs (I've had two wheels go back for hub shells that cracked and allowed spokes to come loose ... or out completely). The Enves you can have built with whatever hubs you want, but with the basic DT Swiss 240s you can't really go wrong. They're quite nice hubs. I think the Enve 3.4s are more comparable to the Zipp 404s than the 6.7s would be.

But my real answer to your question is neither. I have a set of Bontrager Aeolus D3 7s (the new full carbon clincher versions of the Aeolus wheels). I got these in early Fall and I've ridden and raced a lot of miles on them. WOW!!! They really seem to be amazing wheels. I won't go into any specifics because I see that Jackmott is back and, therefore, observations from actual personal experience will be pounced upon and that shit makes me crazy. I can tell you that I had a really great Fall season and I attribute a fair bit of it to the Aeolus D3 7s. Regardless of the tires I've run on them (and I've run Conti GP4000s, Vittoria Open Corsa EVO CX and Bonty R4 Aeros), the ride quality of the wheels just seems to be on another level ... like going from my Honda Element that I drive daily, to the BMW 5 Series I got on a free upgrade at Avis last week. Whoa ... night and day! Check them out for yourself. Actually the Bonty D3 5s are probably the version that's most comparable to Zipp 404s. I'd take my D3 7s over the Enve 6.7s, but that's probably a close call. I'm extrapolating what I've noticed about the ride experience of the 3.4s to the 6.7s.

.



Race Report on a perfect team effort from the new Cat 3 Texas State Champion
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter


bobby11

Dec 16, 12 12:52

Post #8 of 70 (10992 views)
Re: Enve Vs Zipp [jackmott] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thanks for the entirely predictable response.

I have many sets of Hed Jets, too. Not worthy of mention in the same discussion with the Bonty wheels, IMHO. But what do I know. I only have thousands of miles on each. Agree about metal brake tracks ... If I'm riding a road bike on a technical descent or in a crit. On a typical TT or Tri course, I can't see where it's any issue at all.


jackmott

Dec 16, 12 13:16

Post #9 of 70 (10950 views)
Re: Enve Vs Zipp [bobby11] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

It usually isn't an issue on a typical TT course until it is. Car pulls in front of you, rain, etc. That said, the new generation of carbon rims have better braking surfaces. A test ride is a good way to judge the braking quality for yourself.

I'm sorry that my predictable insistence up careful measurement and observation as way of knowing things is annoying to you. I can assure you that your insistence on anecdote as a way of knowing is equally annoying to me, if it makes you feel any better.





bobby11 wrote:
Thanks for the entirely predictable response.

I have many sets of Hed Jets, too. Not worthy of mention in the same discussion with the Bonty wheels, IMHO. But what do I know. I only have thousands of miles on each. Agree about metal brake tracks ... If I'm riding a road bike on a technical descent or in a crit. On a typical TT or Tri course, I can't see where it's any issue at all.



Race Report on a perfect team effort from the new Cat 3 Texas State Champion
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter


bobby11

Dec 16, 12 13:51

Post #10 of 70 (10900 views)
Re: Enve Vs Zipp [jackmott] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I can assure you that your insistence on anecdote as a way of knowing is equally annoying to me, if it makes you feel any better.

I read all the same things you read. I embrace a lot of it. I take all of it with a grain of salt and recognize where limitations exist. Unlike you, I don't discount the experience of the experienced.


DarkSpeedWorks

Dec 16, 12 14:26

Post #11 of 70 (10836 views)
Re: Enve Vs Zipp [3xBAMF] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I wonder why enve makes an 8.9 tubular, but not an 8.9 clincher?


Advanced Aero Storage for Tri Bikes & Superbikes.>Made in the USA.
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Jason P

Dec 16, 12 14:29

Post #12 of 70 (10831 views)
Re: Enve Vs Zipp [3xBAMF] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm biased, but +1 for Enve! I love the 3.4's I'm riding (DT Swiss 240 hubs). Would ride them front and back all the time, but I don't have a powertap on the Enve wheelset so I have a rear training wheel I use instead.

Jason Pedersen | The Triathlon Squad
RunPd.com - Running as fast I can since '93
@jasonpedersen | ENVE Wheels | Hypster.com


bobby11

Dec 16, 12 14:34

Post #13 of 70 (10812 views)
Re: Enve Vs Zipp [DarkSpeedWorks] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I believe the tubulars came first and they've been releasing the clinchers a size at a time with the 8.9s yet to come.


ianpeace

Dec 16, 12 14:50

Post #14 of 70 (10773 views)
Re: Enve Vs Zipp [3xBAMF] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Within your consideration I'd like to offer three other aspects of consideration..
1) Enve has a 5 year warranty and Zipp is 2 year.
2) Enve is 100% made in the USA (Ogden, Utah) and I think Zipp is too (Indiana or is some of their manufacturing over seas?)
3) There's an aspect of the Enve construction that adds strength, they mold in their spoke and valve holes rather than drilling 'em out. I was impressed with that when I toured the factory.

I've ridden a lot of wheel sets over the years. I can say that the all deep-dish wheels react to cross winds in a way that is different to a shallow, boxy rim - and to that end, the greater the profile of the rim the more likely you are going to get pushed around in cross winds (rider weight and bike handling skills are also a factor). I offer up this, which is considered rather common knowledge, because I only rode two sets of Enve's - the 6.7 and and the 8.9, I rode them both in rather sketchy conditions (windy day in canyon area) for about an hour each and what I noticed from the Enve wheels is that the movement of the bike was less than other wheels of equal depth and that it was predictable - therefore less dramatic and, after a short while, pretty much a non-issue.

I don't own a set of Enve's yet but I will soon and I'm excited to unload all my other wheels. I want to ride just one set of wheels full time (training and racing) and minimize the amount of gear I have laying about.

Ian

Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com the adult pathway to your best performances..
If you're into Twitter - @TriCoachIan


JPDMD25

Dec 16, 12 15:30

Post #15 of 70 (10717 views)
Re: Enve Vs Zipp [3xBAMF] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Zipp....Enve....pssshhhh...May I suggest Karbon Speed to you? ---ok, bad joke.


Nick B

Dec 16, 12 15:46

Post #16 of 70 (10690 views)
Re: Enve Vs Zipp [3xBAMF] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I've never ridden the Zipp 404 FC CC, but I've owned a Hed Jet 6 SCT and currently a Zipp 808 FC CC.

The 808 is simply amazing. It's easy to handle in the wind (even at <140lbs), light, great braking, and clincher


Alfalfameister

Dec 16, 12 15:50

Post #17 of 70 (10681 views)
Re: Enve Vs Zipp [JPDMD25] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

JPDMD25 wrote:
Zipp....Enve....pssshhhh...May I suggest Karbon Speed to you? ---ok, bad joke.


LOL! That was actually funny (you just have to be in-the-know).

FWIW, I haven't tried Zipps, but I do have a Jet 9 C2 rear, a Jet 6 C2 front (but not SCT), and a Smart Enve 6 front. To be honest, can't really feel the difference between the front Jet 6 and Smart 6 front in terms of actual speed or crosswind stability (they're both quite easy to handle). So, in terms of aero (whether crosswind or actual full frontal), no scientific data here, but it's a wash.

Handling: the Enve feels stiffer, more solid. It's also lighter. Personally, I think the Jet 6, performance wise, doesn't give up anything on the Enve. Handling wise, the Enve is just a bit better for me. I was also able to get it handbuilt professionally, using [red!] Alchemy ELF hub and [white!] Sapim CX-Ray spokes.

I like the Enve's more. It's also a lot more expensive than Heds. I know this is a Zipp FC vs Enve Smart thread, but I can only c ompare Hed Jets vs Enve, so I hope this isn't too off topic.

(This post was edited by Alfalfameister on Dec 16, 12 15:51)


sesel

Dec 16, 12 16:01

Post #18 of 70 (10657 views)
Re: Enve Vs Zipp [DarkSpeedWorks] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
I wonder why enve makes an 8.9 tubular, but not an 8.9 clincher?

As Bob mentioned, the 8.9 clinchers are coming, but production of the SES 3.4 and 6.7 clinchers was prioritized ahead of the 8.9's. In June this year I put some time on the only set of 8.9 clinchers available (wih DT Swiss 190 ceramic hubs) and I anticipate they'll be a VERY popular wheelset next year for both triathlete's and time trialists. Even with the relatively deep 85mm front rim, the handling characteristics are similar to that of the 6.7's.


Nick Baldwin | @baldwin_nick | Facebook | Coach: Accelerate3
Adidas | Drag2Zero | ENVE | ISPC Seychelles


Carl Spackler

Dec 16, 12 16:02

Post #19 of 70 (10650 views)
Re: Enve Vs Zipp [3xBAMF] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Haven't ridden the Enve but have the 404 and 808 CCs. The 404s are super user friendly and easy to ride in most any condition. Braking is predictable and overall the wheels are a great improvement over past models.


antipodes

Dec 16, 12 16:18

Post #20 of 70 (10602 views)
Re: Enve Vs Zipp [3xBAMF] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Ridden both and own the Zipp 404 FC CC and the 808 FC CC - no noticeable difference btw Enve and Zipp IMO....they are both phenomenal wheels (aero, stiff, fast, reliable/strong).

If your short list is Enve or Zipp it really does not matter which set you purchase...you will not experience the buyer's remorse you had with the KS purchase.


Thomas Gerlach

Dec 16, 12 20:10

Post #21 of 70 (10382 views)
Re: Enve Vs Zipp [3xBAMF] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I've ridden mostly Zipp wheels in the past years and have always been impressed. The FC303 CC is an amazing training wheel. The FC808 CC and 404 are great wheels as well. Never ridden the Enves but I can give a huge thumbs up to the Zipp Carbon Clinchers. Aero, light, durable, great handling in crosswinds, durable as everyday training wheels, nothing not to like about them.


Save 10% on Cobb Saddles | My Weekly Training Update | Save 20% at Trisports.com | Save 10% on "FreeSpeed" at Atomic with Coupon Code TG-10


3xBAMF

Dec 16, 12 20:44

Post #22 of 70 (10323 views)
Re: Enve Vs Zipp [3xBAMF] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thank you ALL for the ton of information that has been shared.

It sounds like Zipp is the way to go if I wanted a wheel to race AND train on.

That said....at what speed does a 808 wheelset become effective and at what speed does the 404 FC become effective?

I have the 404 Clincher (non firecrest) and can feel a noticeable difference around 17 mph. I'm really curious how the new Firecrest 808's stack up to the non-firecrest 404's. They weigh within 60 grams of each other...


styrrell

Dec 16, 12 20:59

Post #23 of 70 (10295 views)
Re: Enve Vs Zipp [3xBAMF] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

The faster you go the more aero helps, from a wattage standpoint, but at any speed aero helps. If you are looking for an everyday wheel I'd go with either a 303FC or a 404FC. The FC shape helps in winds, but deeper wheels will always be affected more so I wouldn't consider an 808 to be an everyday wheel.

If I was buying them for my riding I'd go with a the 303s, but just because I like fat tires for long rides on rough pavement and the occasional fire road. If you are going to use nothing bigger than a 23mm tire either should be fine.

Styrrell


3xBAMF

Dec 16, 12 21:05

Post #24 of 70 (10286 views)
Re: Enve Vs Zipp [styrrell] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thank you!


Alfalfameister

Dec 16, 12 23:23

Post #25 of 70 (10189 views)
Re: Enve Vs Zipp [3xBAMF] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

3xBAMF wrote:
It sounds like Zipp is the way to go if I wanted a wheel to race AND train on.

I am sure that is definitely true, but just to confuse you, an email exchange I had with Enve: the rep told me that I should use my Enve (I have a Smart 6 front; still waiting for a Smart 9 clincher rear) everyday. They gave it a 5 year warranty, and they believe it's one of the toughest wheels out there. They wanted me to use the hell out of it. So that's what I do (except I put on 700x25c tires for training).

And, because of Thomas Gerlach, I now use the Conti-Attack-Force combo strictly as racing tires.

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