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SCOTUS and gay marriage - game on!

 

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oldandslow

Dec 7, 12 13:22

Post #1 of 56 (1338 views)
SCOTUS and gay marriage - game on! Quote | Reply

The Supreme Court will hear the Proposition 8 case and DOMA appeals. I am not totally sure of the logic for hearing the Prop 8 case, but it certainly should be an interesting session. Looking forward to hearing Scalia turn into a pretzel, trying to argue against state's rights in DOMA.


veganerd

Dec 7, 12 13:30

Post #2 of 56 (1318 views)
Re: SCOTUS and gay marriage - game on! [oldandslow] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

With nearly 20% of stated now allowing gay marriage, this will be the final nail in the coffin against marriage inequality.

enemy of epilepsy



BarryP

Dec 7, 12 13:33

Post #3 of 56 (1312 views)
Re: SCOTUS and gay marriage - game on! [veganerd] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm not so sure about that.
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485


veganerd

Dec 7, 12 13:42

Post #4 of 56 (1296 views)
Re: SCOTUS and gay marriage - game on! [BarryP] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

BarryP wrote:
I'm not so sure about that.

It's gonna happen, That shits getting struck the fuck down

enemy of epilepsy



morey000

Dec 7, 12 15:46

Post #5 of 56 (1246 views)
Re: SCOTUS and gay marriage - game on! [oldandslow] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

National support for gay marriage is now about on par with the percent of heterosexual marriages that fail.

the nation is ready. Let's see if the old guys in the black robes are.


YaHey

Dec 7, 12 15:50

Post #6 of 56 (1240 views)
Re: SCOTUS and gay marriage - game on! [oldandslow] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Almost all companies health insurance plans no cover "partners", so the law is actually behind the times in where society and businesses are regarding gay marriage.

oldandslow, think of it, you'll be able to marry any man you want ;-)


Duffy

Dec 7, 12 19:01

Post #7 of 56 (1200 views)
Re: SCOTUS and gay marriage - game on! [veganerd] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

veganerd wrote:
BarryP wrote:
I'm not so sure about that.


It's gonna happen, That shits getting struck the fuck down

I'd be surprised if they strike down Prop 8.

____________________________________________________
"Sometimes you just have to piss in the sink."


JenSw

Dec 7, 12 19:07

Post #8 of 56 (1194 views)
Re: SCOTUS and gay marriage - game on! [veganerd] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I live in Washington state and yesterday I wrote on Facebook that it was a good day to live in WA. My best friend wrote "Why, because we can get married or because we can get stoned?" Ha ha!

I don't know the specifics on what the appeals are based on that got the cases to the SC. I'm hopeful they'll have a hard time justifying inequality in the laws and same sex marriage will finally be legal at the federal level, like marriage between and man and a woman is.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jen - @ultragrrl

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce


veganerd

Dec 7, 12 19:19

Post #9 of 56 (1186 views)
Re: SCOTUS and gay marriage - game on! [Duffy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Duffy wrote:
veganerd wrote:
BarryP wrote:
I'm not so sure about that.


It's gonna happen, That shits getting struck the fuck down


I'd be surprised if they strike down Prop 8.

Prepare to be surprised sometime next spring!

enemy of epilepsy



oldandslow

Dec 7, 12 20:10

Post #10 of 56 (1158 views)
Re: SCOTUS and gay marriage - game on! [Duffy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Quote:
I'd be surprised if they strike down Prop 8.

I'm wondering how the decision to hear Proposition 8 came about. The narrow ruling overturning Prop 8 was extremely uninteresting, since it only specifically dealt with California. Subsequent events in public opinion have overtaken any narrow SCOTUS decision, since a narrow ruling overturning Prop 8 is the same as refuing to hear it, while a ruling upholding Prop 8 will easily be overturned by the voters during the next election (support for gay marriage has risen to 60% in California). The only purpose for a hearing on Prop 8 would seem to be a home run attempt to invalidate ALL state bans, something that will certainly happen in the future, but is probably too big a a stretch for the SCOTUS at this point in history. Of course, they ruled on Loving v. Virginia when 90% of people opposed mixed marriage....


scorpio516

Dec 8, 12 9:47

Post #11 of 56 (1093 views)
Re: SCOTUS and gay marriage - game on! [Duffy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Duffy wrote:
veganerd wrote:
BarryP wrote:
I'm not so sure about that.


It's gonna happen, That shits getting struck the fuck down


I'd be surprised if they strike down Prop 8.

It's already been struck down twice. Each federal challenge to the law succeeded.


Duffy

Dec 8, 12 10:24

Post #12 of 56 (1069 views)
Re: SCOTUS and gay marriage - game on! [scorpio516] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

scorpio516 wrote:
Duffy wrote:
veganerd wrote:
BarryP wrote:
I'm not so sure about that.


It's gonna happen, That shits getting struck the fuck down


I'd be surprised if they strike down Prop 8.


It's already been struck down twice. Each federal challenge to the law succeeded.

By the 9th circuit (in a very narrow, technical ruling). The 9th is the most overturned court. They're generally looney tunes. I think the fact that the appeal to the Supremes is coming from a 9th circuit ruling is one of the reasons they are even hearing it.

____________________________________________________
"Sometimes you just have to piss in the sink."


tigermilk

Dec 8, 12 13:24

Post #13 of 56 (1039 views)
Re: SCOTUS and gay marriage - game on! [oldandslow] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I kind of agree with my wife on this. If gay marriage is ruled to have the same benefits and rights of traditional marriage, what's next? Why is gay marriage now OK? Why not bigamy, polygamy, getting married to an animal, a minor? Changes to the accepted subjective morality can lead a society down a slippery slope. Same goes for pot laws.


BarryP

Dec 8, 12 13:40

Post #14 of 56 (1030 views)
Re: SCOTUS and gay marriage - game on! [tigermilk] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

If gay marriage is ok to be banned, what next? Interracial marriage? Changes to the accepted subjective morality can lead society down a slippery slope. Same goes for pot laws. What next? Alcohol?
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485


trail

Dec 8, 12 13:44

Post #15 of 56 (1028 views)
Re: SCOTUS and gay marriage - game on! [tigermilk] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

>I kind of agree with my wife on this. If gay marriage is ruled to have the same benefits and rights of traditional marriage, what's next? Why is gay marriage now OK? Why not bigamy, polygamy, getting married to an animal, a minor? Changes to the >accepted subjective morality can lead a society down a slippery slope. Same goes for pot laws.

The slippery slope argument/fallacy works both ways. Government restriction of rights is a slippery slope towards totalitarian Naziism. (you brought up donkey-porking so it's only fair.)


Rodred

Dec 8, 12 13:46

Post #16 of 56 (1027 views)
Re: SCOTUS and gay marriage - game on! [BarryP] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

BarryP wrote:
If gay marriage is ok to be banned, what next? Interracial marriage?

Apple meet orange.

~
"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson


Rodred

Dec 8, 12 13:47

Post #17 of 56 (1026 views)
Re: SCOTUS and gay marriage - game on! [oldandslow] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

oldandslow wrote:
The Supreme Court will hear the Proposition 8 case and DOMA appeals. I am not totally sure of the logic for hearing the Prop 8 case, but it certainly should be an interesting session. Looking forward to hearing Scalia turn into a pretzel, trying to argue against state's rights in DOMA.

Are you also looking forward to the chief Justice potentially making a decision based on politics and public opinion as opposed to the law?

~
"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson


veganerd

Dec 8, 12 14:07

Post #18 of 56 (1017 views)
Re: SCOTUS and gay marriage - game on! [Rodred] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Quote:
Are you also looking forward to the chief Justice potentially making a decision based on politics and public opinion as opposed to the law?

If the law is unjust and public opinion recognizes that then yes, every fucking time i want the justices to rule atgainst the unjust law.y

enemy of epilepsy



BarryP

Dec 8, 12 15:13

Post #19 of 56 (1000 views)
Re: SCOTUS and gay marriage - game on! [Rodred] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Quote:
Apple meet orange.


Thanks for making my point for me.


"If gay marriage is ruled to have the same benefits and rights of traditional marriage, what's next? Why is gay marriage now OK? Why not bigamy, polygamy, getting married to an animal, a minor?"


Apple meet oranges.
-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485


oldandslow

Dec 10, 12 9:37

Post #20 of 56 (910 views)
Re: SCOTUS and gay marriage - game on! [tigermilk] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Quote:
Why not bigamy, polygamy, getting married to an animal, a minor? Changes to the accepted subjective morality can lead a society down a slippery slope.

Because they are different? Slippery slope fallacies have been covered here a time or a thousand. There was a thread about the crucial differences between polygamy and SSM last month. The bestiality/pedophilia examples are so offbase, they don't deserve a response (Google 'consent').


TheForge

Dec 10, 12 10:25

Post #21 of 56 (887 views)
Re: SCOTUS and gay marriage - game on! [oldandslow] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

oldandslow wrote:
The Supreme Court will hear the Proposition 8 case and DOMA appeals. I am not totally sure of the logic for hearing the Prop 8 case, but it certainly should be an interesting session. Looking forward to hearing Scalia turn into a pretzel, trying to argue against state's rights in DOMA.


Interesting but needed to be done. I think the underlying reason for taking on Prop 8 is the precedents that could be set regarding states rights. A voter referendum that essentially bars a gov't granted right to a segment of society could set a huge precedent if allowed to go through. It could be used for years to come to support legalization of marijuana or any vice by referendum or even enslavement of a population based on mob rule. Personally, I don't agree with Prop 8 and find the idea vile, but I also do not like the stance the 9th Circuit Court took. I find the fact they are overturned so frequently to be a shining example of judicial activism. But again, I don't support the underlying law they abolished.

DOMA is an example of a law that should never be passed by a federal gov't and is a living example of the failure of a federal system. Such a polarizing law that really has no concensus in terms of a "general welfare" benefit should be voided. However, it does appear to be a redundancy of laws. States are not required to recipricate licenses on anything, so why marriage. I guess the details come in the form of accepting some licenses but not others. Honestly I do not know enough about the law as I have no skin in the game and have other issues I would rather deal with then culture war issues.

With that said, the majority of those who disagree with DOMA, probably supported Obamacare, and guess what, I could see this one passing for much the same reason Obamacare did. Not because of the merits of the constitution, but like Roberts stated "We do not consider whether the Act embodies sound policies. That judgment is entrusted to the Nation's elected leaders. We ask only whether Congress has the power under the Constitution to enact the challenged provisions."

Based on this precedence, I could see DOMA passing. I hope not, but we'll see. It would be poetic justice if the group that seemed to support judicial tyranny for something they wished are screwed by similar judicial tyranny? In fact, I have even heard that that was the Roberts Endgame. Legitimize the court with a controversial position taken by his biggest critics on the left on an issue that was inevitable so that he could would legitimacy to attack issues that he politically supports down the road.


"In the world I see you are stalking elk through the damp canyon forests around the ruins of Rockefeller Center. You'll wear leather clothes that will last you the rest of your life. You'll climb the wrist-thick kudzu vines that wrap the Sears Towers. And when you look down, you'll see tiny figures pounding corn, laying stripes of venison on the empty car pool lane of some abandoned superhighway." T Durden


(This post was edited by TheForge on Dec 10, 12 10:28)


vitus979

Dec 10, 12 10:50

Post #22 of 56 (871 views)
Re: SCOTUS and gay marriage - game on! [oldandslow] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

There was a thread about the crucial differences between polygamy and SSM last month.

There are no crucial differences between polygamy and SSM such that SSM must be allowed on rights grounds and polygamy can be banned.


Arguing that we're not already on a slippery slope when it comes to marriage is ridiculous. We clearly are, and the indicators are all around us; academic discussions over the end of marriage altogether, calls to allow virtually every type of relationship to be labeled "marriage," the recent introduction of the idea of temporary marriage in Mexico, to the increasing number of people who apparently think the government should get out of marriage altogether. Heck, the Atlantic had an article last month that argued that single people should have weddings, too.

I'm not even sure, at this point, why SSM advocates argue that there isn't a slippery slope. What have you got against polygamy? The ick factor?








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."


cerveloguy

Dec 10, 12 11:00

Post #23 of 56 (858 views)
Re: SCOTUS and gay marriage - game on! [tigermilk] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

"Changes to the accepted subjective morality can lead a society down a slippery slope."

Canada legalized gay marriage several years ago and the country didn't burn in a hail of fire and brimestone. Life just went on as normal the day after. Now its become a non issue. If two gays want to call themselves married let them. The only people that it makes any difference to are the divorce lawyers because now they will have more work.


oldandslow

Dec 10, 12 12:07

Post #24 of 56 (837 views)
Re: SCOTUS and gay marriage - game on! [vitus979] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

When support for polygamy in society and law parallels support for gay marriage you win, until then you lose and the slippery slope must remain a fallacy. I previously put forth differences between the two which clearly explain why reality is so at odds with your argument (equal rights, role of women, entitlement programs, artificial insemination, move away from an agrarian society, etc.). The differences remain and have convinced a sizeable number of people, whether you acknowledge them or not.


vitus979

Dec 10, 12 12:13

Post #25 of 56 (829 views)
Re: SCOTUS and gay marriage - game on! [oldandslow] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

When support for polygamy in society and law parallels support for gay marriage you win, until then you lose and the slippery slope must remain a fallacy.

Support for polygamy in society? That dog won't hunt. This isn't a popularity contest, remember? This is about people's rights. The question is not appropriately decided by majority vote.
Bigots shouldn't be allowed to deny people their rights.

You're better off just embracing that slippery slope. It's inevitable anyway, why fight it when doing so only makes you look like a hypocrite?









"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."

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