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Swimming for idiots

Bone crusher

Sep 17, 12 2:58

Post #1 of 14 (1565 views)

Swimming for idiots	Quote \| Reply

hi

Just after a bit of training advice, background started swimming a few months ago on and off, mainly 1 - 2 sessions per week, have had a few weeks off when I had knee surgery around 4.5 weeks ago. Anyway im getting a bit more keen on swimming and want to get better at it. At the moment I have just been swimming 3km in my sessions 1-2 times per week thats all my training consists of, my best 3km time so far is 55:16. Last week i decided to do a 1500m swim and did it in 26:02 i almost felt like i was going to die.

So how do I improve from here I want to train for olympic distance swim and ironman swim at same time. Im thinking of increasing training to 3 swims per week. Starting this week. Today I tried doing something differentI tried swimming 100m intervals at 1:30 pace with a 1min recovery, i only managed 5 of these in a row and I was stuffed.

Here is my proposed training plan please tear this apart if needed.

Monday 100m intervals as fast as possible for as many as I can handle
Wednesday 3km swim as fast as possible
Friday 1.5km swim as fast as possible.

Please note i live in regional area and have no access to coaches or swim clubs or anything like this Im on my own apart from internet. I have had no stroke training or anything like that so I just slash my way thru the water. Im mainly trying to get a training plan together that will be of most benefit how does the above look.

thanks

jaretj

Sep 17, 12 3:34

Post #2 of 14 (1521 views)

Re: Swimming for idiots [Bone crusher] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

This helped me a lot when I first started

http://www.amazon.com/...workouts+in+a+binder

Do the test and follow the schedule just like the book says to do. Some of the sets will be really hard, do them at the pace described, it will suck but will make you a better swimmer.

Every once in a while seek out a good swimmer and have them watch you, take note of what they said and concentrate on that for the next few weeks.

jaretj

cannastar

Sep 17, 12 4:15

Post #3 of 14 (1474 views)

Re: Swimming for idiots [Bone crusher] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

1. Swim more (ie days per week)
2. Do structured workouts (look at ntcmasterswim.blogspot.com or the monthly swim threads here)
3. Join a masters group
4. Get you stroke anlaysed

The intervals you are proposing are not good.

You want to be focussing on speed (i.e. 50m intervals) basic aerobic (100-200m) and longer (400m) intervals over this length are an important component of swimming but for a weaker swimmer it is very likely your form will go to shit. Concentrate on nailing short rest 100-200m intervals.

Here is all the swim sets I did last week, they are a little long and on a different time cycle to you, but they give a rough idea of what I mean about differnent zones plus they can easily be modified

http://willcannon.tumblr.com/...im-week-worlds-build
__________________________________________________
OffSeason Goals: 15:45 5k and 12.30 1KLCM Swim (Pro License)
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tegra

Sep 17, 12 5:13

Post #4 of 14 (1426 views)

Re: Swimming for idiots [cannastar] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

cannastar wrote:

+1

note that any and all intervals should be on a specific time (i.e. 8x50m on 1:00, 10x100m on 2:15), not "go as fast as i can and take 30 seconds rest".

texafornia

Sep 17, 12 6:20

Post #5 of 14 (1374 views)

Re: Swimming for idiots [tegra] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

tegra wrote:

cannastar wrote:

1. Swim more (ie days per week)
2. Do structured workouts (look at ntcmasterswim.blogspot.com or the monthly swim threads here)
3. Join a masters group
4. Get you stroke anlaysed

The intervals you are proposing are not good.

You want to be focussing on speed (i.e. 50m intervals) basic aerobic (100-200m) and longer (400m) intervals over this length are an important component of swimming but for a weaker swimmer it is very likely your form will go to shit. Concentrate on nailing short rest 100-200m intervals.

+1

note that any and all intervals should be on a specific time (i.e. 8x50m on 1:00, 10x100m on 2:15), not "go as fast as i can and take 30 seconds rest".

+ 1

----------------------------------------------------------
Zen and the Art of Triathlon
http://www.zentriathlon.com

ZackCapets

Sep 17, 12 7:10

Post #6 of 14 (1321 views)

Re: Swimming for idiots [Bone crusher] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

A 1500m swim and a 2.4mi swim are both aerobic efforts, so basically anything other than swimming a low number of 12.5's, 25's, 50's or 100's completely all-out will make you faster at both distances. Swimming a main set of 15x100 at threshold will not really help an ironman athlete any less than it would an Oly racer. The magnitude of the difference in distance between an Oly swim and an Iron swim is not large in the absolute sense. Don't look at the two as mutually exclusive (i.e 1500m speed, vs. 2.4mi endurance). Your top-end speed will not be the limiter for either---it's all in your aerobic capacity and endurance for both.
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FLA Jill

Sep 17, 12 7:52

Post #7 of 14 (1270 views)

Re: Swimming for idiots [Bone crusher] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Back of the envelope, aim for about 60% of a workout to be at aerobic threshold pace, 20% to be below threshold pace (warm-up, drills, warm down) and 20% of the workout to be above threshold pace.

Even if you're doing Ironmans, you want to have the ability to vary your pace and have some tactical speed to go with the aerobic base.

A good article talking about pacing from the Finding Freestyle folks is here:

http://www.findingfreestyle.com/?q=colorzones

And then once you've figured out your pacing, set up your sets to reflect the 60/20/20 idea.

uncle_evan

Sep 17, 12 8:00

Post #8 of 14 (1253 views)

Re: Swimming for idiots [texafornia] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

texafornia wrote:

tegra wrote:

cannastar wrote:

+1

note that any and all intervals should be on a specific time (i.e. 8x50m on 1:00, 10x100m on 2:15), not "go as fast as i can and take 30 seconds rest".

+ 1

Most swim threads say "join a masters group" as if they're in every town in the world... I dont have one, so now what?
____________________________________________________
DOPERS SUCK

rosalestri

Sep 17, 12 8:30

Post #9 of 14 (1220 views)

Re: Swimming for idiots [Bone crusher] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

Bone crusher wrote:

hi

Im thinking of increasing training to 3 swims per week. Starting this week. Today I tried doing something differentI tried swimming 100m intervals at 1:30 pace with a 1min recovery, i only managed 5 of these in a row and I was stuffed.

- This ^^^^ is a must! , if you don't want to feel "stuffed" then make it 4 times during the winter time.

Here is my proposed training plan please tear this apart if needed.
Monday 100m intervals as fast as possible for as many as I can handle
Wednesday 3km swim as fast as possible
Friday 1.5km swim as fast as possible.

- Here ^^^^ Don't do it! I honestly don't see the point of swimming for more than 500 meters/yards straight if you are going to feel "stuffed"..... Structured workouts are the way to go. get a good warm up, work some drills, do some pull and kicking and go into your main set

Main set is where it is at! read this --> "I try to make my main set between 1,000 to 1,600 yards (8x200�s, 10x100�s, 10x150�s). Being ready for your main set in crucial! The core of the workout should be at least 2,000 yards�after all you are preparing yourself to swim 1,500 or 3,800 meters. If you can�t fit in workouts that are 3,000 yards long, you will put yourself at risk for potential problems on race day. "
The main set is where you swim at threshold and rest 10-15 per 100. i.e if you are doing 5x200's and your pace per 100 meter is 1:30, ideally your send off should be no more than 3:20 (taking into account that you finish your 200 in 3:00)

I like 150 more than 100's because you can fake 100's very easy! first 50 you go out strong and even if you die in the second 50 you still have a decent 100... now if your goal is 1:25 per 100, make the 50 to 150 meter split 1:25, in other words don't worry too much about your first 50 (it is going to feel strong most of times)

Please note i live in regional area and have no access to coaches or swim clubs or anything like this Im on my own apart from internet. I have had no stroke training or anything like that so I just slash my way thru the water. Im mainly trying to get a training plan together that will be of most benefit how does the above look.

You can still make it happen! just make sure to put in the time, it is a matter of not only getting 3 or 4 minutes faster in your 1500 meters... You also want to feel fresh out of the water, not like a sack of.......

thanks

If this helps, then you are welcome... (Not saying this is the only way, but this might help)

MFConlon

Sep 17, 12 9:03

Post #10 of 14 (1168 views)

Re: Swimming for idiots [Bone crusher] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I am very new to triathlons, did my first two in the last month. I am a former swimmer, so naturally the swim comes very easy to me. My biggest observation from watching others so far is related to form.

This weekend I did my first olmypic distance tri and had a 23.31 in the mile swim. I took it very easy and focused on maintaining proper form the whole time. Aerobically I felt great the entire time due to my training in biking/running. I didnt train swimming at all prior to the race. I don't care if you work out 5 times a week in the pool @ 5,000 meters per practice, if you have bad form you are going to struggle no matter what.

Running on the other hand, i stuggle with big time. I increased my workouts and all it led to was terrible shin splints, runners knee, back strains, etc. all because i have bad form while running. So, my biggest focus for the next few months is strictly working on my running form. I firmly believe you have to master the basic motion before you can see results in increased workouts.

Again, i am very new to this stuff and i could be way off based, but its just an observation i have noticed

texafornia

Sep 17, 12 9:31

Post #11 of 14 (1121 views)

Re: Swimming for idiots [uncle_evan] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

uncle_evan wrote:

texafornia wrote:

tegra wrote:

cannastar wrote:

+1

note that any and all intervals should be on a specific time (i.e. 8x50m on 1:00, 10x100m on 2:15), not "go as fast as i can and take 30 seconds rest".

+ 1

Most swim threads say "join a masters group" as if they're in every town in the world... I dont have one, so now what?

Start one or move.

----------------------------------------------------------
Zen and the Art of Triathlon
http://www.zentriathlon.com

Bone crusher

Sep 18, 12 2:53

Post #12 of 14 (939 views)

Re: Swimming for idiots [rosalestri] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

rosalestri wrote:

Bone crusher wrote:

If this helps, then you are welcome... (Not saying this is the only way, but this might help)

Hi thanks to everyone for your responses. I wanted to respond to everyones post indivdually but Iam unsure how to quote each person and reply to each post??

I think it was canstar who posted a link to his workouts, i had a look through there and im pretty sure i saw somewhere in there saying you swam 38kms in a week??? Man are you a pro swimmer or is this normal for swim training for someone who does triathalon? I am only a amatuer and when i come back from injury i will need to make time for run and bike training too so I dont think I can do anywhere near this amount of swimming. I think at best ican fit in 3 one hour swim sessions a week?? thoughts on this

I wanted to reply to the quotes above i think by rosaletri, when you say i shouldnt swim until Im stuffed can you explain why I shouldnt do this? Sorry for my ignorance but i thought pushing it to the max for 1500 or 3000 would be good instead of not maxing so that then when i want to go slightly slower i wouldn't feel so buggered if you know what I mean?

With ur comments about a main set being 8x200 etc can you explain the benefits of doing that compared to just swimming 1600m straight for example, is it becasue you get a slight rest which recharges you to be able to put more effort into each set?

Also Iam unsure what threshold pace is can anyone explain how you work this out?

Again pardon my ignorance but can someone explain for example if i wanted to be as fast as possible at 3.8km that wouldnt it make sense to do a 3.8km swim at training sometimes to train what you are going to race at?

So to summarise what I think i have learnt so far

1. If doing intervals do at set pace ie 100m leaving every 2:30 aiming to hold a certain pace throughout the interval
2. Sets and main sets is more beneficial than going to the pool and doing long swims ie 1500m straight or 3000m straight
3.The aim is to be able to do the sets so that ur not absolutely stuffed and loose form
4.Swim as often as possible (3x a week max for me)
5.Join masters if your town has them (we dont have this my town is 1500 people and im often the only one at the pool)

Sorry for all the questions guys this new sport is just so overwhelming I hate learning a new sport like this at the start it is just so much to take in. My motto in other sports Ive done is always go as hard as possible no matter what your doing and results should come, i get the feeling triathalon and especially swimming training is more complicated than that.

thanks again

rosalestri

Sep 18, 12 10:46

Post #13 of 14 (818 views)

Re: Swimming for idiots [Bone crusher] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

I think at best ican fit in 3 one hour swim sessions a week?? thoughts on this
-- 3 x 1 hr is better than 2x1 hr. So yeah, if you have the time, desire and the facilities to do it, go for it.

I wanted to reply to the quotes above i think by rosaletri, when you say i shouldnt swim until Im stuffed can you explain why I shouldnt do this? Sorry for my ignorance but i thought pushing it to the max for 1500 or 3000 would be good instead of not maxing so that then when i want to go slightly slower i wouldn't feel so buggered if you know what I mean?
-- Nothing to be sorry about, this is a great question. swimming a 1,500 to 3,000 straight is not wrong but I don't think it is the best workout that you could/can do to improve in your current situation.
One of the biggest things is form, as MFConlon said, " if you have bad form you are going to struggle no matter what." I'm a huge believer in technique and work. They go together, good technique will allow you to go longer and not worry about injuries. The problem that I have (I'm probably not the only one who feels this way) with swimming super long sets. i.e 2x1500, 3,000, 4x1,000 or 2x2,000 is that no matter your skill level, your form will start breaking down and most of the set will be done with bad form. Now if you do " With ur comments about a main set being 8x200 etc can you explain the benefits of doing that compared to just swimming 1600m straight for example, is it becasue you get a slight rest which recharges you to be able to put more effort into each set?" you are giving yourself a chance to improve your endurance while keeping a good form.

Also Iam unsure what threshold pace is can anyone explain how you work this out?
Since you like doing the long sets :) whenever you have time, go to the pool and do a nice warm up (at least 600 yards/meters) then, time yourself during 1,000 yards/meters going all out. (this is the only time, I'll advocate this to you hahaha) when done, record your time and divide by 10, that will give you your 100 yard/meters pace to be working with.

Again pardon my ignorance but can someone explain for example if i wanted to be as fast as possible at 3.8km that wouldnt it make sense to do a 3.8km swim at training sometimes to train what you are going to race at?
it could, but the chances of killing your form in the process are as good or better than actually getting faster. Plus think about this hypothetical scenario.
Starting today September 18, 2012 you have 36 week until your next race. If you swim 3 times per week and one of those times you do for sure a 3,000 swim, that would put you at 36 times swimming a 3,000 as fast as possible. This would drive me bonkers, I would dread that day of the week... Specially when you get to a point at week 12 out of 36 when your time is literally the same for the next 9 weeks... instead you can rotate, create workouts. 10x200 today, maybe 8x400 next week, then 2X (2X200+2X100),and so on.

I believe there is a lot of former club and college swimmers here, and one of the things you look forward in practice is to do something different. The pool could be a very boring place (not trying to discourage you, but giving you a nice reality check) Improving in the pool is also very odd, you might be stuck swimming the same time/pace for a year and then all the sudden you have this crazy drop and it makes you feel that if you can improve at that rate until the next FINA worlds, you might actually qualify. Most of times it doesn't work that way.

So to summarise what I think i have learnt so far

1. If doing intervals do at set pace ie 100m leaving every 2:30 aiming to hold a certain pace throughout the interval -- Yep
2. Sets and main sets is more beneficial than going to the pool and doing long swims ie 1500m straight or 3000m straight -- Yep
3.The aim is to be able to do the sets so that ur not absolutely stuffed and loose form -- ding, ding, ding.
4.Swim as often as possible (3x a week max for me) --Correct.
5.Join masters if your town has them (we dont have this my town is 1500 people and im often the only one at the pool) -- If you don't mind me asking, where do you live?

Sorry for all the questions guys this new sport is just so overwhelming I hate learning a new sport like this at the start it is just so much to take in. My motto in other sports Ive done is always go as hard as possible no matter what your doing and results should come, i get the feeling triathalon and especially swimming training is more complicated than that.
-- Swimming is a different animal...
thanks again
If this helps, then you are welcome again.

P.S -- feel free to pm me if you want to

Bone crusher

Sep 18, 12 20:26

Post #14 of 14 (695 views)

Re: Swimming for idiots [rosalestri] [In reply to]	Quote \| Reply

mate I cannot thank you enough for your time and effort to reply to all my questions thank you very much.

I live in the state of queensland in australia, iam in the far north of the state which is the tropics in a small town north of cairns. Cairns is a tourist destination for the great barrier reef. This site is mostly USA based ? I have been the the USA and florida and absolutely loved it great place.

thanks