Bike Shops
Coaches
Fitters
Race Calendar
Running Stores
Store
Stack & Reach
Training Log
Triathlon Clubs
We Noticed
MAIN INDEX
RULES & LEGEND
LOG IN
Slowtwitch Forums
:
Lavender Room
:
God particle found?
1
...
14
15
16
17
18
View All
Tri
Classifieds
Lavender
Jobs
Womens
Notices
Print Thread
slowguy
Jul 23, 12 8:05
Post #426 of 445
(618 views)
Re: God particle found? [LorenzoP]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
"the words omnipotence, omniscience, eternal are known . . . and we have a vague idea as to their meaning; but re these properties actualized in a being, we have no idea what we are talking about . . . especially as compared to H2O "
Yes, H2O is infinitely less complex than the concept of an omniscient, omnipotent, eternal deity. The point remains, statements about God being omnipotent are just statements about what God is. They are not, in and of themselves, attempts to prove anything.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
FTDA
Jul 23, 12 8:15
Post #427 of 445
(616 views)
Re: God particle found? [slowguy]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
They (statements about god) are statements that are unsupported. There is plenty to support that water is "wet". Silly, I know, but it was your analogy : )
------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus fish and Darwin fish leading school of smaller Jesus fish: FTDA's minivan.
Loving all religions...day 6.
slowguy
Jul 23, 12 8:34
Post #428 of 445
(610 views)
Re: God particle found? [FTDA]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
"They (statements about god) are statements that are unsupported. "
So what? They are statements about the nature of God. Huckleberry Finn was a boy. Sherlock Holmes was British. These are statements about the persons in question. They don't need to be supported. There is no way to prove God is omnipotent or omniscient or eternal, so asking for support for those statements is disingenuous, to say the least.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
FTDA
Jul 23, 12 9:20
Post #429 of 445
(604 views)
Re: God particle found? [slowguy]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
I am trying not to laugh at your comparisons to fictional characters.....it is fitting.
You keep missing my point however. Arguments about god that are supported by relying on statements about it's character are not trully supported..........
------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus fish and Darwin fish leading school of smaller Jesus fish: FTDA's minivan.
Loving all religions...day 6.
(This post was
edited
by FTDA on Jul 23, 12 9:24)
slowguy
Jul 23, 12 9:26
Post #430 of 445
(595 views)
Re: God particle found? [FTDA]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
"I am trying not to laugh at your comparisons to fictional characters.....it is fitting."
Of course it's fitting. God is not a human being, for whom concrete historical or scientific proof is available. I've already covered this ground. If this was as easy as simple historical proof, faith wouldn't be as important as it is.
"You keep missing my point however. Arguments about god that are supported by relying on statements of about character are not trully supported......"
And you keep missing my point. In order to discuss God, we have to know what we're talking about. Fortunately, we know what we're talking about because there are a few basic things that define what God is. We start from those, and then we can talk about the rest. If you insist on proof of the basic characteristics, you should find a new thread, because you won't ever move forward in a discussion about God.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
FTDA
Jul 23, 12 9:36
Post #431 of 445
(586 views)
Re: God particle found? [slowguy]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
If proof of the basic characteristics of god can not be presented what does that say about all arguments moving forward......
We can have the same conversation about bigfoot, nessy, aliens, etc.
I enjoy your candor about the importance of faith....I also have mentioned in the past that if by faith alone the christian god can be considered true than all things can be considered true by faith. Where does that leave us?
What then are the limitations of faith?
------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus fish and Darwin fish leading school of smaller Jesus fish: FTDA's minivan.
Loving all religions...day 6.
slowguy
Jul 23, 12 9:42
Post #432 of 445
(583 views)
Re: God particle found? [FTDA]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
"If proof of the basic characteristics of god can not be presented what does that say about all arguments moving forward......"
It says they are based on faith. Again, we've covered this.
"I also have mentioned in the past that if by faith alone the christian god can be considered true..."
Nobody has said that a person's faith proves that God is real. Nobody has said that God becomes true just by closing your eyes and having a lot of faith. Nobody is asking you to have faith just because Christians do. However, if you want to talk about what God does, or why he created us the way he did, and you want to have that conversation as it pertains to the Christian God, then you have to proceed from the basic framework of God as he is defined by Christianity. Otherwise, you're having a discussion about some other "God" and there's no real reason to have that discussion.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
FTDA
Jul 23, 12 9:46
Post #433 of 445
(581 views)
Re: God particle found? [slowguy]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
Seems fair.
Now can we openly discuss why it is you believe the bible provides you with the definition of god as omnimax?
------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus fish and Darwin fish leading school of smaller Jesus fish: FTDA's minivan.
Loving all religions...day 6.
slowguy
Jul 23, 12 10:02
Post #434 of 445
(574 views)
Re: God particle found? [FTDA]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
"
Now can we openly discuss why it is you believe the bible provides you with the definition of god as omnimax? "
Omnipotent
Matthew 19:26
But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
Luke 1:37
For with God nothing shall be impossible.
Revelation 19:6
And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.
Omniscient
Psalm 147:4,5
He telleth the number of the stars; he calleth them all by their names. Great is our Lord, and of great power: his understanding is infinite.
Isaiah 46:10
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure.
Omnipresent
Psalm 139:8
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.
Psalm 123:1
Unto thee lift I up mine eyes, O thou that dwellest in the heavens.
I Kings 8:27
But will God indeed dwell on the earth? behold, the heaven and heaven of heavens cannot contain thee; how much less this house that I have builded?
Matthew 18:20
For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
Eternal
Psalm 90:2
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.
Genesis 21:33
And Abraham planted a grove in Beersheba, and called there on the name of the Lord, the everlasting God.
Isaiah 57:15
For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
Infinite
Psalm 145:3
Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable.
Jeremiah 23:24
Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the Lord. Do I not fill heaven and earth? saith the Lord.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
FTDA
Jul 23, 12 10:08
Post #435 of 445
(573 views)
Re: God particle found? [slowguy]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
Ominibenevolent?
------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus fish and Darwin fish leading school of smaller Jesus fish: FTDA's minivan.
Loving all religions...day 6.
slowguy
Jul 23, 12 10:12
Post #436 of 445
(569 views)
Re: God particle found? [FTDA]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
"
Ominibenevolent? "
Note that these passages do not say that God is always "nice" or "kindly." They say that he is good and that God is love.
I John 4:8
He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
I John 4:12
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.
I John 4:16
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
FTDA
Jul 23, 12 10:17
Post #437 of 445
(562 views)
Re: God particle found? [slowguy]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
Cool.
This is where you would normally give me shit for cherry picking from the bible : )
Are you aware of any contradicting verses?
------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus fish and Darwin fish leading school of smaller Jesus fish: FTDA's minivan.
Loving all religions...day 6.
slowguy
Jul 23, 12 10:20
Post #438 of 445
(560 views)
Re: God particle found? [FTDA]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
"This is where you would normally give me shit for cherry picking from the bible : ) "
Well, I could certainly try to quote the whole Bible here, but I don't think Dan would like the amount of space that would take.
"Are you aware of any contradicting verses? "
I'm sure there are verses that we can find and point to to say, "That doesn't sound very loving," or "I don't understand why he would do X if he was so kind," but I'm not aware of any verses that say, "God didn't know something," or "God couldn't move that rock," or "God was born on a Tuesday so he's not eternal," etc.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
FTDA
Jul 23, 12 10:22
Post #439 of 445
(558 views)
Re: God particle found? [slowguy]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
Is it logically possible for a being of such characteristics to exist?
------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus fish and Darwin fish leading school of smaller Jesus fish: FTDA's minivan.
Loving all religions...day 6.
slowguy
Jul 23, 12 10:46
Post #440 of 445
(550 views)
Re: God particle found? [FTDA]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
"Is it logically possible for a being of such characteristics to exist? "
That's a decent question. I would say that logic doesn't really determine whether a thing could or couldn't exist. Things either exist or they don't. However, none of the characteristics are mutually exclusive of one another, so there aren't any contradictions there. And the very nature of God, as I've described such a concept, would not seem to be bound by the rules that comprise the human understanding of logic, would it. I know that sounds "convenient" and it may be, but it also makes sense given the definition of God I've laid out. If God created everything that is, that would include all of space, and time, and certainly would include all the rules for how things work, to include rules to govern the material world (physics) and rules to govern how we think and process information (logic and reason). If he created those rules, he certainly isn't bound by them.
Slowguy
(insert pithy phrase here...)
Eppur si muove
Jul 23, 12 11:41
Post #441 of 445
(542 views)
Re: God particle found? [slowguy]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
I would say that logic doesn't really determine whether a thing could or couldn't exist. Things either exist or they don't.
Does there exist a Slowtwitch poster who has more posts in the Lavender Room than all the people in this forum combined?
FTDA
Jul 23, 12 12:24
Post #442 of 445
(527 views)
Re: God particle found? [slowguy]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
Can god create a circular argument so convincing even he would believe it???
Just kidding around.
But in all seriousness you have just defined god beyond all falsifiability.....sort of like string theory and the multiverse. I can buy that. : )
------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus fish and Darwin fish leading school of smaller Jesus fish: FTDA's minivan.
Loving all religions...day 6.
LorenzoP
Jul 23, 12 12:34
Post #443 of 445
(520 views)
Re: God particle found? [slowguy]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
"
logic doesn't really determine whether a thing could or couldn't exist"
true, however logic and evidence can predict whether something can or does exist - - examples being Black Holes and the god-particle - - both thought to exist before actually being discovered.
I'd like to see someone develop a god-hypothesis - - and then detail an experiment, even a thought experiment, where such a hypothesis could be tested - - I'd pay a dollar for that.
duffman
Jul 23, 12 12:50
Post #444 of 445
(516 views)
Re: God particle found? [slowguy]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
slowguy since you're a reasonable fellow and pretty up on the scriptures I'd be curious what you think about the texts that were not adopted into the modern Western bible. There are differences in for example the orthodox and ethiopian church old testament, and there were other writings not including in the new testament. The addition of the book of Revelation (one you just quoted from) was pretty controversial. Do you believe the books in the modern bible were divinely inspired and these others not? Just curious.
__________________________
Oh yeah!
FTDA
Jul 24, 12 14:01
Post #445 of 445
(482 views)
Re: God particle found? [duffman]
[
In reply to
]
Quote
|
Reply
Bump.
There are some unanswered questions still here. (slowguy)
------------------------------------------------------------
Jesus fish and Darwin fish leading school of smaller Jesus fish: FTDA's minivan.
Loving all religions...day 6.
1
...
14
15
16
17
18
View All
Print Thread
this forum
this category
all forums
All words
Any words
Whole Phrase
The New Specialized Wind Tunnel
Will this be a game changer for Specialized, in both sales and product design, or will it not move the sales and design needle versus those in Specialized's competitive set?
Yes, Game Changer
Minor move forward
Won't budge the needle
