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please rip apart my swim!
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Cheesy Bottom
Jun 12, 12 14:40
Post #76 of 86
(647 views)
Re: please rip apart my swim! [tskeltonpga]
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You have gotten a lot of advice.
Some good, and some crap. Unfortunately, a lot of the advice is in low priority areas.
Please trust me that
your number one problem
is that you are absolutely letting your hand and arms slip through the water, and that is the reason you have little propulsion per stroke. All other recommendations are secondary to this.
I recommend one drill to help you feel the water.
Swim one length with your fists closed so that you grab less water. Then open your hands to normal for one length and feel them grab (or slip through) the water. Keep doing this until you can feel them anchor the water and not slip through. Your underwater stroke will change over time as you learn to feel what grabbing the water feels like. You will also likely feel sore triceps or lats, as you train the muscles to actually work. Your stroke rate per minute will also likely come down until the muscles get retrained. Swim with more effort (not more stroke rate) on the lengths back with the hands open, but do not let the hands slip. Don't worry about anything or over think it, just grab as much water as possible, no slipping. Also disregard any advice that says you are gliding too much, you are not. You can use a pull buoy to help isolate the pull if needed (but don't become an addict to the pull buoy).
After you get better at that, which could be immediately or weeks, then work on priority number 2, which is your stroke length. It is plenty long out front, but you wimp out at the finish and remove your hands to soon. You can push water another several inches down your hip and leg area. This will also force a bit more hip roll and hip power.
After you are great at this, go back and improve the water feel and grab, before moving on to some of the other stuff people have recommended, and you will be in a better position to judge the good from bad advice.
(This post was
edited
by Cheesy Bottom on Jun 12, 12 16:33)
Fastyellow
Jun 12, 12 16:07
Post #77 of 86
(628 views)
Re: please rip apart my swim! [Cheesy Bottom]
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Cheesy Bottom wrote:
Please trust me that
your number one problem
is that you are absolutely letting your hand and arms slip through the water, and that is the reason you have little propulsion per stroke. All other recommendations are secondary to this.
Yup....^^ this....your position in the water is fine...plenty fine to be a shitload faster, so don't worry about that. Your only priority would be, as Paulo puts it, "Push water back"
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Big
Jun 12, 12 17:01
Post #78 of 86
(611 views)
Re: please rip apart my swim! [Cheesy Bottom]
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Cheesy Bottom wrote:
You have gotten a lot of advice.
Some good, and some crap. Unfortunately, a lot of the advice is in low priority areas.
Please trust me that
your number one problem
is that you are absolutely letting your hand and arms slip through the water, and that is the reason you have little propulsion per stroke. All other recommendations are secondary to this.
I recommend one drill to help you feel the water.
Swim one length with your fists closed so that you grab less water. Then open your hands to normal for one length and feel them grab (or slip through) the water. Keep doing this until you can feel them anchor the water and not slip through. Your underwater stroke will change over time as you learn to feel what grabbing the water feels like. You will also likely feel sore triceps or lats, as you train the muscles to actually work. Your stroke rate per minute will also likely come down until the muscles get retrained. Don't worry about that or over think it, just grab as much water as possible, no slipping. You can use a pull buoy to help isolate the pull if needed (but don't become an addict to the pull buoy).
After you get better at that, which could be immediately or weeks, then work on priority number 2, which is your stroke length. It is plenty long out front, but you wimp out at the finish and remove your hands to soon. You can push water another several inches down your hip and leg area. This will also force a bit more hip roll and hip power.
After you are great at this, go back and improve the water feel and grab, before moving on to some of the other stuff people have recommended, and you will be in a better position to judge the good from bad advice.
Yes this ^^^^^^....I was a new swimmer around 4 to 5 years ago as an adult...Very athletic (Div I athlete)...and pick things up very quick...but was doing a lot of research learning on my own....Total immersion was my starting point which was a good start, but also the same reason (in my opinion) I stopped progressing for quite a while....I would try all the litlte tricks that people gave me and/or read, and I think my stroke and body position actually looked good, but I really wasn't moving through the water...I didn't really understand the high elbow thing (catch either)...and then 1 day about a year ago I tried a couple of tricks to feel the water (get leverage on the water so I was actually moving forward)...and everything changed...I think I have posted on here that I actually consider myself a swimmer...in the sense that how often I breath, how much I rotate, where my head is exactly, hip driven stroke, shoulder driven, 2 beat kick, 6 beat kick, ect. ect....doesn't really matter...I can focus/feel certain aspects that I need to when I want to and I can go back and forth...ie I can just swim now...
Another drill that helped me along with the drill above was alternating my head position (more learning by contrast)...I would alternate swimming heads up (kind of looking at my hands, but not full on sighting) with head down either every 3 or every 5 strokes...This also helped me feel the water and move continiously through the water without the dead spots...It took me a long time to break the TI habit of trying to over exagerate front quadrant swimming and gliding...I would over extend my front hand keeping it very close to the surface of the water for to long...and then let it slip through the water on the pull like your hand seems to be doing...
I know I have some old video somewhere...I will try to post the difference in a couple of days....
Just as a side not...
When I started out swimming, anything longer than a 100 meters was around 2:05-2:15/100m pace....My fastest 100 meters was about 1:34...couldn't break 1:30 for one all out sprint..it was pretty sad...My first IMAZ swim was around 1:16, but I spent so much time in the pool going no where fast...
This last winter...swimmiing only about 1600 meters 2 to 3 times per week...jumped into my first communtiy swim meet for fun...and went 28 sec for 50 meters with first time off the blocks in my life... (short course meters)...This wasn't too surprising because I am faily explosive and could always blast myself through a 50...but I went 1:06 for a 100 meters and 2:30 for 200 meters which was the best feeling ever because I swam these very strong, but def. not all out...just breathing every 3 strokes...
I know these times aren't really that fast in the swimming world, but I don't feel like swimming is as huge of a limiter (with respect to my goals) for me any more and now I have been really excited to build some real swim fitness this year...
Anyways, I think you are pretty close...stick with it...I will try to post some video when I get a chance...The change was so dramatic...I was the slow frustrated guy for a long time....
JasoninHalifax
Jun 12, 12 17:35
Post #79 of 86
(596 views)
Re: please rip apart my swim! [tskeltonpga]
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What Cheesy Bottom said.
One other thing to keep in mind, and this isn't directed at you specifically, but at the (small) subset of triathletes who care about swimming in general, is that you see a whole lot of crap out there about different styles of swimming. That's exactly what that is... crap. If you see top level swimmers who do different things (e.g. turnover, 2 beat vs 6 beat, front quadrant vs "conventional", shoulder driven vs hip driven etc) then that probably doesn't matter all that much, in that it isn't something to really focus on. Instead, focus on doing what the top level swimmers all do the same. I've been swimming a long time and I don't even know what "hip driven" means!
What really matters, off the top of my head in no particular order:
1) horizontal body position
2) don't fishtail, don't cross centerline
3) vertical forearms
4) quick light recovery
5) effective shoulder roll (don't over-rotate)
6) a kick that at a minimum doesn't impede you (if you're a sprinter the kick matters a lot more)
There may be a couple of other things that I've forgotten, but If you look at ANY national or world level swimmer, they all do those things. The other stuff that swimmers all do differently will come down to personal preference. You'll figure those things out on your own by challenging yourself in workouts. But don't think about those, they'll just come to you naturally.
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"I'm a dirty girl" - Katy
tskeltonpga
Jun 12, 12 17:57
Post #80 of 86
(585 views)
Re: please rip apart my swim! [JasoninHalifax]
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Ok so went to the pool for about 20 mins tonight. Focusing on getting the fingers pointing down really felt like it helped get my arm vertical faster. then I focused on pushing the entire thing back. going to work on that for a few weeks then will post back. thanks for all the help!
hotman637
Jun 12, 12 22:51
Post #81 of 86
(555 views)
Re: please rip apart my swim! [tskeltonpga]
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In the 1950's, the jump shot will never work! Now EVERYONE has a jump shot!
In the early 1970's,NEVER use wrist on your goundstrokes! Now EVERY tennis player uses wrist on the ground strokes!
Aero bars are for sissies! Now,all triathletes use aerobars!
In the 50's,3 yards and a cloud of dust! Now the passing percentage goes up every year!
And so on and so on! The point is that technique and technology are always evolving. My point is FIND THE BEST TECHNIQUE and use it!
jbank
Jun 13, 12 4:06
Post #82 of 86
(532 views)
Re: please rip apart my swim! [hotman637]
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Slightly different subject matter, but the same basic rules apply.
http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/crackpot.html
hotman637
Jun 13, 12 10:16
Post #83 of 86
(478 views)
Re: please rip apart my swim! [jbank]
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Loved that list!! Got a big laugh out of it! I probably score about a thousand on the Crackpot Index,and not just for swimming,lol. Do I get a prize?
SnappingT
Jun 13, 12 10:52
Post #84 of 86
(464 views)
Re: please rip apart my swim! [tskeltonpga]
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I'm a masters swim coach that works with a lot of triathletes. I swam in college and have competed in open water swimming for the past 25 years.
I took a look at your video and you have good body position in the water, your shoulder movement is mostly balanced and you aren't scissor kicking. Where I think you can improve is on the finish of your stroke. You are taking about 18 strokes per 25, which is fairly high considering you are holding a moderate pace. There are really a couple more angles of your stroke that I would need to see to give you a complete analysis, but based on your video you shouldn't have any problem going faster.
I'm testing out an online training program and I think I could help you get faster. I want to see if I can coach remotely and get good results with swimmers. Obviously, since you would be one of the first people I would work with remotely, there won't be any cost to you. The only thing you would have to do is work hard.
Let me know if you are interested and we can set it up.
Best regards,
Tim Floyd
SnappingT
Jun 13, 12 10:57
Post #85 of 86
(462 views)
Re: please rip apart my swim! [tskeltonpga]
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The one thing you don't want to do is compare pool times to open water swim times. You can't normalize them. There is no way to compare apples to apples. You shouldn't even compare one open water swim to another even if it is the same course year over year. Again, no way to normalize.
The best way to find out if you are getting better in open water swimming is to compare your place in the field. It's the same reason that there are no world records for open water swims at the Olympic level and qualification for The US Olympic team is not by time, but by place at international competitions.
DavidK
Jun 14, 12 9:08
Post #86 of 86
(384 views)
Re: please rip apart my swim! [jbank]
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jbank wrote:
Others will probably pitch in with more expert feedback, but till then, here's my 2 cents.
Your body position looks good to my eye. Your biggest weakness is lack of propulsion. You should work on your catch and maybe your stroke rate as well. If you are into reading about this stuff, you might try the recent Sheila Taormina book that focuses on this aspect of swimming. You can look up some EVF drills; I like some of the sculling drills that you can find on youtube. Are you swimming with a master's group? If not, I'd recommend trying it. Good luck.
Based on your suggestion I purchased and read Sheila Taormina's new book. Thanks. Highly recommend. David K
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