aero weenie advice: Next "free speed"

Jun 1, 12 12:09

Post #1 of 41 (8706 views)

Over the last couple of years, I've gradually added more "free speed" with better equipment and position and I'm looking for advice about what might be next. I figure I'm probably at diminishing returns, but I enjoy aero testing/tuning, so I'll probably do something even if it isn't a huge improvement. My current race equipment setup is:
-) Cannondale Slice, Profile Design x1.5 bars, between bars water bottle
-) H3C front, Bonty Aeolus (Hed) disc rear, Vittoria Corsa Tubies (w/ latex)
-) Giro Advantage II
-) Desoto Trisuit (and PI booties for TT)
I've attached some relatively recent position pics. I recently started using a DZ like stacked hands approach, which aero field tests as faster. My current front end has an integrated stem, which is annoying for testing lower positions.

Here is my own current list of possibly helpful changes, some way more expensive than others:
-) Center pull front brake (rear brake too?)
-) Upgrade front end with something more adjustable and try going lower in front
-) Upgrade helmet to something that fits against my back better
-) Real skinsuit for TTs instead of Trisuit
-) Upgrade wheelset (front 808 FC?, rear ?)
-) Upgrade to a "superbike" like Shiv/P5

Re: aero weenie advice: Next "free speed" [jbank] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 12 12:19

Post #2 of 41 (8664 views)

Using DZ as an example you are still higher up. Also you knees seem wide, although that may not be fixable, still wedges and just paying attention may help.

On the equipment side a skinsuit can be cheap, bolt on skewers are cheap. After that its likely to get more expensive.

Styrrell

Re: aero weenie advice: Next "free speed" [styrrell] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 12 12:23

Post #3 of 41 (8638 views)

styrrell wrote:

Using DZ as an example you are still higher up. Also you knees seem wide, although that may not be fixable, still wedges and just paying attention may help.

On the equipment side a skinsuit can be cheap, bolt on skewers are cheap. After that its likely to get more expensive.

Yes, my knees are very wide, I'm aware and work on it. It used to be way worse. When I got a retul fit last year, the guy doing the fitting did a double take the first time he looked at the computer results and had to walk around to get a head on view because he thought something was broken. I personally blame playing hockey as a kid for being a bowlegged. As mentioned, I think I could be comfortable lower, but am currently limited by my aerobar choice, so maybe that is the next biggest impact item.

Re: aero weenie advice: Next "free speed" [jbank] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 12 12:24

Post #4 of 41 (8637 views)

FC 808, P5

That should help!

Re: aero weenie advice: Next "free speed" [jbank] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 12 12:33

Post #5 of 41 (8602 views)

nothig to do with being bowlegged, you need to adjust your cleats and learn to not pedal like a frog on a bike. major drag

Re: aero weenie advice: Next "free speed" [jbank] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 12 12:36

Post #6 of 41 (8579 views)

Push your Giro helmet way back on your forehead, to eliminate the gap between it and your back. Imagine a sweatband above your eyebrows. The edge of the helmet should rest roughly on the top edge of the sweatband. You should be able to feel the helmet on your back. Cost: $0.

No coasting in running and no crying in baseball

Re: aero weenie advice: Next "free speed" [jeffp] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 12 12:38

Post #7 of 41 (8566 views)

jeffp wrote:

nothig to do with being bowlegged, you need to adjust your cleats and learn to not pedal like a frog on a bike. major drag

Any pointers on what sort of cleat adjustments might help? I definitely look like a frog on a bike; my wife says she recognizes me from a long way off that way :(

Re: aero weenie advice: Next "free speed" [jbank] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 12 12:42

Post #8 of 41 (8544 views)

Go to a bike fitter adept at adjusting knee tracking (cleat position, wedges under cleats, possibly longer pedal axles). They typically use a laser level and make sure your knee is tracking straight up and down over the pedal.

I suppose you could buy a laser level and ask a friend to eyeball things for you, and make the adjustments yourself. Bike fitter would be better though.

Re: aero weenie advice: Next "free speed" [jbank] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 12 12:48

Post #9 of 41 (8516 views)

why hasnt anyone mention the height of your saddle yet?

go to someone that deals with this, ie a fitter and get cleats adjusted, after saddle height. i had to move my left cleat in(foot away from bike) to get my left leg from having bad wobbles. now both legs can brush the toptube if i focus on it slightly

you probably could have used a smaller size bike as well

Last edited by: jeffp: Jun 1, 12 12:50

Re: aero weenie advice: Next "free speed" [jeffp] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 12 12:59

Post #10 of 41 (8476 views)

I'll try not to be defensive since I do appreciate the input. Apart from the recent hand adjustment, I'm riding the position setup last fall by a retul fitter who came pretty well recommended (advertises on ST, has some good feedback, etc). We did some minor adjustments that helped with the knee tracking, but didn't go down the path of moving cleats, adding wedges, etc. I agree that I probably could have used a smaller size bike, I got it used before I was fit and didn't want to immediately invest in something different.

Re: aero weenie advice: Next "free speed" [jbank] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 12 13:04

Post #11 of 41 (8445 views)

well seat looks too high to me in that pic, could be wrong

part of problem could be you are sitting way too far back on your adamo, might not be, but a place to start

Re: aero weenie advice: Next "free speed" [Tri3] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 12 13:21

Post #12 of 41 (8388 views)

Tri3 wrote:

Push your Giro helmet way back on your forehead, to eliminate the gap between it and your back. Imagine a sweatband above your eyebrows. The edge of the helmet should rest roughly on the top edge of the sweatband. You should be able to feel the helmet on your back. Cost: $0.

Switch helmets to get a better fit? Sure.

Sacrifice safety for a better fit? No.

Steve

"If you ain't first, you're last." Reese Bobby Talladega Nights

Re: aero weenie advice: Next "free speed" [jeffp] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 12 13:22

Post #13 of 41 (8386 views)

jeffp wrote:

well seat looks too high to me in that pic, could be wrong

Me, too. By quite a bit.

Steve

"If you ain't first, you're last." Reese Bobby Talladega Nights

Re: aero weenie advice: Next "free speed" [jbank] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 12 13:25

Post #14 of 41 (8372 views)

Last edited by: Nick_Barkley: Jun 1, 12 14:01

Re: aero weenie advice: Next "free speed" [jeffp] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 12 13:34

Post #15 of 41 (8343 views)

jeffp wrote:

well seat looks too high to me in that pic, could be wrong

part of problem could be you are sitting way too far back on your adamo, might not be, but a place to start

I agree...on both counts.

Also, what crank length are you using? Shorter cranks may help reduce your knee splaying out at the top of the pedal stroke like that...On top of that, shorter cranks would allow you to raise your seat relative to the BB and bars (or, you just leave the seat height where it is.)

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: aero weenie advice: Next "free speed" [jbank] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 12 13:38

Post #16 of 41 (8320 views)

"Free speed" as defined on Slowtwitch:

- Upgrade wheelset (front 808 FC?, rear ?)
- Upgrade to a "superbike" like Shiv/P5

Classic.

Re: aero weenie advice: Next "free speed" [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 12 13:42

Post #17 of 41 (8305 views)

Those pics were from me just jumping on the bike post aero testing to try to document what I had done, I wasn't at power (didn't feel like grinding up my nice tires on the trainer). I think I'll try taking some shots when I'm actually warmed up and working and see if that accounts for the bad adamo saddle position (and some of the height).

I'm currently using 172.5 cranks, so I guess shorter cranks might help. Of course, as with the bike, there is some buyer's remorse disincentive to swap; I just got the used quarq on the bike last fall.

Re: aero weenie advice: Next "free speed" [Pooks] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 12 13:48

Post #18 of 41 (8275 views)

Pooks wrote:

"Free speed" as defined on Slowtwitch:

- Upgrade wheelset (front 808 FC?, rear ?)
- Upgrade to a "superbike" like Shiv/P5

Classic.

It was in quotes because it was intentionally tongue-in-cheek. I'm distinguishing between speed that comes from training and speed that comes from equipment and position tweaking. I guess the irony is that what I'm calling "free speed" often costs lots of $, while doing more training is usually free (apart from time).

As an aside, I listed those last two for completeness, I generally get my stuff used and would be hard pressed to find a good deal on those particular items.

Re: aero weenie advice: Next "free speed" [The_Mickstar] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 12 13:54

Post #19 of 41 (8235 views)

The_Mickstar wrote:

Tri3 wrote:

Push your Giro helmet way back on your forehead, to eliminate the gap between it and your back. Imagine a sweatband above your eyebrows. The edge of the helmet should rest roughly on the top edge of the sweatband. You should be able to feel the helmet on your back. Cost: $0.

Switch helmets to get a better fit? Sure.

Sacrifice safety for a better fit? No.

Yup, that was my thought as well. I've unfortunately made use of my helmet (not an aero one) and was quite glad it was on my head correctly. I'm not in love with the idea of sliding the helmet way up my head assuming I could even get it to stay there.

Re: aero weenie advice: Next "free speed" [jbank] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 12 14:06

Post #20 of 41 (8197 views)

Interesting... I was considering the Zipp aero skewers (~$80) until you mentioned bolt-on skewers (~$10). I'm assuming the bolt-on skewers are more aerodynamic than the Zipp aero skewers, correct? Do you recommend any particular brand of bolt-on skewers?

jbank wrote:

styrrell wrote:

Using DZ as an example you are still higher up. Also you knees seem wide, although that may not be fixable, still wedges and just paying attention may help.

On the equipment side a skinsuit can be cheap, bolt on skewers are cheap. After that its likely to get more expensive.

Yes, my knees are very wide, I'm aware and work on it. It used to be way worse. When I got a retul fit last year, the guy doing the fitting did a double take the first time he looked at the computer results and had to walk around to get a head on view because he thought something was broken. I personally blame playing hockey as a kid for being a bowlegged. As mentioned, I think I could be comfortable lower, but am currently limited by my aerobar choice, so maybe that is the next biggest impact item.

Last edited by: K_Man: Jun 1, 12 14:07

Re: aero weenie advice: Next "free speed" [K_Man] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 12 14:14

Post #21 of 41 (8169 views)

K_Man wrote:

Interesting... I was considering the Zipp aero skewers (~$80) until you mentioned bolt-on skewers (~$10). I'm assuming the bolt-on skewers are more aerodynamic than the Zipp aero skewers, correct? Do you recommend any particular brand of bolt-on skewers?

http://view-speed.com/

Re: aero weenie advice: Next "free speed" [jbank] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 12 14:47

Post #22 of 41 (8095 views)

I'd consider trying these:

http://www.kneesaver.net/...dal-extenders-6.html

Your feet will obviously be wider, but it may help your knees track better. I use these on my tri bikes - or rather anything that has narrow road cranks (I don't need them on mountain cranks).

I'd also look at crank length to see about either a power gain and/or aero gain by going shorter.

Greg

Re: aero weenie advice: Next "free speed" [K_Man] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 12 15:02

Post #23 of 41 (8055 views)

I just use some old ones that I had and replaced the endcaps with washer and a small hex nut. Basically nothing protrudes. You do have to make sure the axle of the wheel doesn't stick out past the dropout though. You could contact JackMott he posted a pic of a skewer that was pretty much what I did but ready made and a bit neater.

Styrrell

Re: aero weenie advice: Next "free speed" [jbank] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 12 15:55

Post #24 of 41 (7947 views)

In all honesty the position looks pretty darn good to me as far as aero is concerned. To get better you might need a wind tunnel because the changes would be subtle. You could maybe go a hair lower on the front but that might also mean less power. Yeah maybe the seat is a bit high but that's hard to judge without seeing more, and also if you can't lower the front then lowering the seat will likely make you less aero not more.

Re: aero weenie advice: Next "free speed" [lanierb] [ In reply to ]

Jun 1, 12 16:19

Post #25 of 41 (7911 views)

lanierb wrote:

In all honesty the position looks pretty darn good to me as far as aero is concerned. To get better you might need a wind tunnel because the changes would be subtle. You could maybe go a hair lower on the front but that might also mean less power. Yeah maybe the seat is a bit high but that's hard to judge without seeing more, and also if you can't lower the front then lowering the seat will likely make you less aero not more.

Funny, I hadn't really intended this to be a critique my position thread. I was actually hoping more for equipment suggestions than position changes. I guess it is just too tempting with the pictures to not nitpick a bit, certainly the knee thing is an easy target. Also, the position stuff may be where there is more room for real gains. I don't have a wind tunnel, but I've gotten ok at aero field testing, so I can test out some relatively subtle stuff (I think). I'm curious whether the suggested skewer change would even show up for example. That seems pretty easy to test.

Our Partners

transition-DOT-area-AT-slowtwitch-DOT-com

Advertise with us

©1999-2024 Slowtwitch, Inc., and Slowtwitch.com
Reproduction of material from any Slowtwitch.com page
without written permission is strictly prohibited.