I remember when that happened. The man didn't even really know how to swim, himself. A selfless act that should be celebrated whenever people think of the words "selfless acts" (and "heroism" as well). What a tragic day for all concerned, though. He could have just stayed on shore and signaled for help, but he didn't and he figuratively ran toward the sounds of the guns and did what he thought necessary. That the entire episode turned out so badly just makes it all the more plangent and impactful.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

If any one person were to take the credit for something like this, I would be a bit disgusted. And to not give credit to the previous administration is a bit of a dick move as well. That one kill was years of planning/pouring over data/strategizing. Not just one day or one administration. So if credit didn't go all they way around for that, I would call BS and move on.

I gave him high praise the night he did it, and I continue to applaud him for making the call. But you're right. He's now trading on what he did in a blatantly cynical manner that's unseemly and off-putting, and to a degree that's much greater than we've seen from past presidents -- politicians all, of course -- in the past. And we've got Bill Clinton -- a man who also had OBL in his sights and failed when it came time to really doing the dirty to him -- going around implying, as well, that BHO demonstrated some sort of "super-President super powers" when it came to taking OBL out. Again: Thanks for doing it, Mr. President, and Bravo Zulu to you. But you weren't one of the door-kickers or intel types that ran OBL to ground and did for him what most of us would have also done, so quit implying that you were.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

For an event like 9/11? Very few and Barack Obama was one of them, so he's in a select club and should be applauded. But he's starting to take things a bit too far, in the opinion of some. Now, I'm not too sure all those guys active in SPECWAR should be even be speaking off the record about all this, but I can see why some are becoming frustrated because it seems like Obama's acting like one of those Sailors that get busted sporting a Trident and jump wings down at the 'E' club, and I think that's what's irritating some of them.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

I kinda like this one better...



I'm not gay, but sometimes, well....

---

Civilize the mind, but make savage the body.

- Chinese proverb

How is it any different from claiming that you endorsed economic policy X, while your opponent not only endorsed policy Y but criticized policy X, and the results of your policy X implementation produced the most favorable results? Because terrorism and thus emotion is involved?

One difference could be that when you're talking about military policy, your opponent may also actually support policy X but be wise enough to understand that it is contrary to the national interest to say so publicly. In fact, that may very well apply with regard to McCain's and Hilary's positions on this issue back in 2008. I don't think anyone is likely to claim that politicians ought to conceal their true positions with regard to economic policies in this manner.

---

-----
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

Funny thing about that flight suit thing, though. Ol' Bushitler actually been there, done that and had the t-shirt to prove it. He was a Delta Dart (or Dagger, I forget which) pursuit jet (a highly unstable jet, to boot) aviator with the TANG, so he really did have some cred when it came to wearing that.

That said, in hindsight it was an extremely foolish thing to do, especially in the eyes of people that never had any experience with the military and with (the breaks of ;-) Naval Air. He could've been a bit more dignified about it, but a lot of the military folks -- not all, by a long shot -- felt that he was trying to pay homage to what they'd pulled off. Of course, he was also trying to scoop up some "glory-by-association," much like our present CinC is doing, so there's always that elephant in the room when it comes to 'ol Dubya Bushitler.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

When one looks back over US history and its presidents, the decision to say "go" to the Obama raid, while big, is pretty low on the list of "great tough decisions."

Roosevelt and Truman made decsions on this level pretty much daily during WWII. Eisenhower actually gave the "go" decision on D-Day and even though he was not Prez at the time, its one of the biggest gut check/all on me calls anyone who ever occuppied the Oval office made. If the Obama raid had failed, 30 guys could have died and we would have gotten another chance some day. If D-Day had failed, 100,000+ troups would have been lost and we'd all be speaking German to this day. Truman gave the order to nuke Japan. Kennedy made some truly ballsy decisions during the Cuban Missle crisis. Bush gave the go ahead to invade Afgahanstan which was pretty huge at the time. I could go on.

Obama deserves some credit but, it was a relatively routine national security type call. All in a days work. In fact, he's personnally authorized the deaths of a couple hundred other people over the past 3 years. Its a rare week where he does not order someone killed. And those don't even get a press release much less full scale bragging.

Yeah, I can remember when the mainstream media and just about the entire Left, including many folks here who don't say a peep when Obama does it, would go into paroxysms of rage over Bushitler's arrests and detentions of "enemy combatants," especially those who were also American citizens, like Jose Padilla. But they're all strangely silent when their guy, BHO, actually orders the extra-judicial killing of an American citizen living in Yemen (al-Awlaki, which I also applaud him for, to tell the truth). Just imagine if ol' Dubya had done the same thing and then made sure everybody knew he'd done it.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Didn't seem to me to be the case, regarding Pakistan. There was some talk about how they wouldn't "telegraph their punches," but it seems to me the broader criticism was targeted at the policy itself.

http://mediamatters.org/research/201105020010

---

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

"I'm not too sure all those guys active in SPECWAR should be even be speaking off the record about all this..."

You're not sure? Really? Of course they should not be speaking off the record on this. If there are SEALs who are getting their panties in a bunch because they think the CinC is taking credit and limelight they think they deserve, then I would offer that they've forgotten a good bit of what made the SEALs who they are.

"...it seems like Obama's acting like one of those Sailors that get busted sporting a Trident and jump wings down at the 'E' club, and I think that's what's irritating some of them. "

It's not really like that at all, since Pres Obama is, you know, the Commander in Chief. He's not some weenie who buys a flight jacket at the Army/Navy Surplus and pretends to be a badass or makes up stories about how he was involved in every SpecOps mission or unit, and gets called on it. He is the CinC, and he was the guy who made the call. He couldn't have done the specific job completed by the men who took down bin Laden, but likewise, most of them couldn't do his job either.

Do I wish all politicians would use the military less for politics? Sure. But let's not pretend that every politician doesn't ride his significant military accomplishments for every penny while campaigning, and let's not pretend that, if it was a Republican in office when bin Laden was taken, he wouldn't be making hay from it as well.

---

Slowguy

(insert pithy phrase here...)

You bring up a good and valid point. I'm no President Obama supporter but he did take a lot of flack for being honest on that particular issue and he did follow up his words with actions.

If I recall correctly my impression and what I think others had said is that stating as a Presidential candidate that you would invade a friendly foreign nation was not an appropriate thing to say publicly and that many of those aspiring to the office would consider sending troops into a friendly foreign nation but would NOT boast about it before the fact.

So the question is, was then Senator Obama getting raked over the coals for his willingness to to do it, or was it his stating it publicly?

---

************************
#WeAreTheForge #BlackGunsMatter

"Look, will you guys at leats accept that you are a bunch of dumb asses and just trust me on this one? Please?" BarryP 7/30/2012

I'm not pretending that every politician doesn't do this. But I'm not too sure they're doing this so early and so often, and at such intensities as the present guy, who of course is entitled to wear "the flight jacket" and all that other stuff. It seems to a lot of folks like he's glomming onto the operator side of the business a little too eagerly, at least from where a lot of us are sitting, up here in the cheap seats.

FWIW, I haven't heard any of the guys I know still on ACDU making these accusations or observations. But a lot them in the retiree community are shaking their heads over it. I think ol' Dubya set a bad example, but the guy really was entitled to actually wear the flight suit and his wings. The rest of that carrier op thing, though, should've been a lot less ostentatious.

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

Both.

---

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

I thought we were talking about the candidates' positions, not what talk-show hosts may have said.

McCain, 2/20/2008: "The first thing you do is, you don’t tell people what you’re gonna to do. You make plans and you work with the other country that is your ally and friend, which Pakistan is."

McCain, 9/26/2008: "I’m not prepared at this time to cut off aid to Pakistan. So I’m not prepared to threaten it, as Senator Obama apparently wants to do, as he has said that he would announce military strikes into Pakistan. Now, you don’t do that. You don’t say that out loud. If you have to do things, you have to do things, and you work with the Pakistani government."

McCain, 10/7/2008: "in fact, [Obama] said he wants to announce that he’s going to attack Pakistan. Remarkable. If you are a country and you’re trying to gain the support of another country, then you want to do everything you can that they would act in a cooperative fashion. When you announce that you’re going to launch an attack into another country, it’s pretty obvious that you have the effect that it had in Pakistan: It turns public opinion against us." (source)

Precisely because he didn't endanger our diplomatic relations with Pakistan, McCain was no doubt somewhat inhibited in his remarks, making himself sound more friendly with that regime than he really would like to be. Despite that, it's pretty clear that the main thrust of his criticism of Obama's remarks was that you don't announce your military intentions publicly if that's going to create a problem for our foreign policy.

BTW, I didn't vote for McCain and I find him despicable for other reasons. I just wanted to set the record straight.

---

-----
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

The criticism from the right, including both politicians and talking heads, was for both answering the question honestly when asked, and for the answer he gave. It was not limited to his candor.

McCain repeatedly characterized Senator Obama's remarks as having threatened to attack Pakistan. He did no such thing, as you well know. That bears mentioning, since we're setting the record straight here.

---

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

I was thinking about just this point on my way home a bit ago as I listened to Obama thump his chest. At some point some of them will get tired of hearing him run his yap after he tried to do as much as he could to be sure we neutered the war on terror.

---

~
"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

Gawd, I love the Internet Age. Not only do you get the best pron these days, but also the best Obama missteps: :-)

Obama: "I'd Invade Pakistan for Osama"

http://www.nydailynews.com/...ama-article-1.236575

---

"Politics is just show business for ugly people."

And it would be just as classless.

---

~
"You lie!" The Prophet Joe Wilson

I hear that. With the internet, the ability to discern the difference between words like "invade" and "attack" is never more than a few clicks away. ;)

---

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

Here is what Obama reportedly said:

"Let me make this clear: There are terrorists holed up in those mountains who murdered 3,000 Americans. They are plotting to strike again," Obama said. "If we have actionable intelligence about high-value terrorist targets and President Musharraf won't act, we will."

I was present at The Citadel when he said it. That was the gist, as I recall.

---

The devil made me do it the first time, second time I done it on my own - W

The criticism from the right, including both politicians and talking heads, was for both answering the question honestly when asked, and for the answer he gave.

Again leaving the talking heads aside (since my original observation had nothing to do with them), I don't think we can necessarily take what McCain may have said about the proposed policy itself at face value. As I just pointed out, McCain couldn't speak frankly about his own intentions toward Pakistan simply because any such statement might itself have negative consequences for the country.

McCain repeatedly characterized Senator Obama's remarks as having threatened to attack Pakistan. He did no such thing, as you well know. That bears mentioning, since we're setting the record straight here.

I don't think he attacked Pakistan, but a lot of Pakistanis regard it as an invasion of their national sovereignty--not that I have any sympathy for that viewpoint, of course.

EDIT: I think I misinterpreted you. You meant to say that Obama didn't threaten back in 2008 to attack. Again, though, the kind of incursion required to take out Osama and other terrorists would be regarded by an attack by many Pakistanis, even if you and I might not see it that way.

---

-----
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

I don't think he attacked Pakistan, but a lot of Pakistanis regard it as an invasion of their national sovereignty--not that I have any sympathy for that viewpoint, of course.

Are you referring to the strike that took out Osama?

If so, I am a bit surprised. When was the last time a foreign country sent military into the US in a live-fire mission where property was damaged, at least one person was killed and at least one body removed from the scene?

What do you suppose Obama's reaction would be if Pakistan conducted a similar mission in Oregon to take out an enemy of Pakistan holed up in the woods?

If so, I am a bit surprised.

I condensed several ideas into that sentence. Which one surprises you?

What do you suppose Obama's reaction would be if Pakistan conducted a similar mission in Oregon to take out an enemy of Pakistan holed up in the woods?

Presumably, he'd wait until Oregon reacted before siccing the Justice Department on them, as he did with Arizona.

---

-----
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.