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Zipp Firecrest 303 vs 404

 

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goodboyr

Nov 28, 11 12:37

Post #1 of 55 (12914 views)
Zipp Firecrest 303 vs 404 Quote | Reply

Ok. Trying to decide between these two in the tubulars. I've attached the two drag graphs, (which are not the best, but its all Zipp has to offer).




So, what I get from these is that, there is very little difference between these wheels (10g to 20g of drag) until you get above 15 degrees, at which point the 404 FC's dramatically rise in drag, and the 303 FC's stay flat to 20 degrees. This tells me that there are more avantages to the 303's than the 404's. Or did I read these wrong?


(This post was edited by goodboyr on Nov 28, 11 12:39)


3Aims

Nov 28, 11 12:42

Post #2 of 55 (12900 views)
Re: Zipp Firecrest 303 vs 404 [goodboyr] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...vs_the_404_P3513507/


glib

Nov 28, 11 12:42

Post #3 of 55 (12897 views)
Re: Zipp Firecrest 303 vs 404 [goodboyr] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I don't see 303s on there.


Am I blind?


goodboyr

Nov 28, 11 12:56

Post #4 of 55 (12870 views)
Re: Zipp Firecrest 303 vs 404 [3Aims] [In reply to] Quote | Reply


You're kidding right? I read that thread before I posted. Although it started on topic, it came to no definitive conclusion, and then quickly descended into an argument about whether Vaughters did the right bike selection for the team on the mountain TT in the TDF.

The first graph has a line labelled "9993: x45 FC, GP4000S-A-23mm". I've interpretted that to be the new Firecrest 303.


3Aims

Nov 28, 11 12:58

Post #5 of 55 (12863 views)
Re: Zipp Firecrest 303 vs 404 [goodboyr] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

goodboyr wrote:


You're kidding right? I read that thread before I posted. Although it started on topic, it came to no definitive conclusion, and then quickly descended into an argument about whether Vaughters did the right bike selection for the team on the mountain TT in the TDF.

The first graph has a line labelled "9993: x45 FC, GP4000S-A-23mm". I've interpretted that to be the new Firecrest 303.

No. I think the first page (and first several posts) answers the question. The second page is for entertainment.


goodboyr

Nov 28, 11 13:05

Post #6 of 55 (12842 views)
Re: Zipp Firecrest 303 vs 404 [3Aims] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

3Aims wrote:
goodboyr wrote:


You're kidding right? I read that thread before I posted. Although it started on topic, it came to no definitive conclusion, and then quickly descended into an argument about whether Vaughters did the right bike selection for the team on the mountain TT in the TDF.

The first graph has a line labelled "9993: x45 FC, GP4000S-A-23mm". I've interpretted that to be the new Firecrest 303.


No. I think the first page (and first several posts) answers the question. The second page is for entertainment.

I don't think so. That thread was before all info was out, and the last person that commented said:

"I'd take a 100 gram weights savings over saving 1 watt every day. Figure in a pack that 1 aero watt would be effectively non-existent. "

Which is exactly where I started this question. Why would you chose the 404 over the 303 at this point?

As for entertainment value, I think the "Di2 -- one year on " thread wins that prize!!


jackmott

Nov 28, 11 13:23

Post #7 of 55 (12818 views)
Re: Zipp Firecrest 303 vs 404 [goodboyr] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

goodboyr wrote:
Why would you chose the 404 over the 303 at this point?

Because as little as 1 watt difference is (and it would be more than that anyway), even after you whittle away at it by 30% in a pack.

it still speeds you up better than 100 grams does =)

for instance say you are climbing a 2000 meter 4% climb at 250 watts, and you drop 100 grams off your wheels. you will save 0.25 seconds

1 watt will save you .96 seconds

.75 watts still around .7 seconds


redo this math where its flat instead of 4% up and aero wins even more of course



A profile of 'Fast Freddie', the USAT 64-69 age group Olympic distance national champion
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter


jackmott

Nov 28, 11 13:25

Post #8 of 55 (12813 views)
Re: Zipp Firecrest 303 vs 404 [jackmott] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I've combined those two charts into one, along with the 808 data here:

https://docs.google.com/...wMXVQeXFoWnJxS2doYUE

what I conclude from it is that the 303 data you found was done probably with different tires, different protocol, and the graph is wacky as they skipped a couple yaw angles. So I wouldn't trust this as a comparison at *all*. It is very unlikely that the 0 deg yaw difference is really that big. same for the 20 deg yaw.


also get the 808



A profile of 'Fast Freddie', the USAT 64-69 age group Olympic distance national champion
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter


goodboyr

Nov 28, 11 13:26

Post #9 of 55 (12809 views)
Re: Zipp Firecrest 303 vs 404 [jackmott] (Deleted by goodboyr) [In reply to]

 


goodboyr

Nov 28, 11 13:30

Post #10 of 55 (12799 views)
Re: Zipp Firecrest 303 vs 404 [jackmott] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

jackmott wrote:
I've combined those two charts into one, along with the 808 data here:

https://docs.google.com/...wMXVQeXFoWnJxS2doYUE

what I conclude from it is that the 303 data you found was done probably with different tires, different protocol, and the graph is wacky as they skipped a couple yaw angles. So I wouldn't trust this as a comparison at *all*. It is very unlikely that the 0 deg yaw difference is really that big. same for the 20 deg yaw.


also get the 808


Link does'nt work for me. But based on what you said, it sure would be nice if Zipp would just produce a nice 'apples to apples" aero compare set of charts for representative tire widths so that we could see the differences.


(This post was edited by goodboyr on Nov 28, 11 13:31)


jackmott

Nov 28, 11 13:32

Post #11 of 55 (12791 views)
Re: Zipp Firecrest 303 vs 404 [goodboyr] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I agree, but still

808/disc for tris/tts

404/808 for bike racing

303 tubies for hill climbs

thats pretty much going to be the way to go 99.853% of the time

goodboyr wrote:

Link does'nt work for me. But based on what you said, it sure would be nice if Zipp would just produce a nice 'apples to apples" aero compare set of charts for representative tire widths so that we could see the differences.



A profile of 'Fast Freddie', the USAT 64-69 age group Olympic distance national champion
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter


glib

Nov 28, 11 13:43

Post #12 of 55 (12779 views)
Re: Zipp Firecrest 303 vs 404 [jackmott] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

jackmott wrote:
goodboyr wrote:
Why would you chose the 404 over the 303 at this point?


Because as little as 1 watt difference is (and it would be more than that anyway), even after you whittle away at it by 30% in a pack.

it still speeds you up better than 100 grams does =)

for instance say you are climbing a 2000 meter 4% climb at 250 watts, and you drop 100 grams off your wheels. you will save 0.25 seconds

1 watt will save you .96 seconds

.75 watts still around .7 seconds


redo this math where its flat instead of 4% up and aero wins even more of course
What are you using to calculate the red?

What difference between 100grams on a frame and 100grams on a wheelset?

Is there a difference between two wheelsets, one with a 800 gram hub and 200 gram rim and the other with a 700 gram hub and 300 gram rim? (same spokes)


jackmott

Nov 28, 11 13:46

Post #13 of 55 (12768 views)
Re: Zipp Firecrest 303 vs 404 [glib] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

http://www.analyticcycling.com/ForcesSpeed_Page.html

the difference between wheel weight and frame weight is very very close to zero. even when accelerating all out in a crit.

similarly, it doesn't make sense to worry about whether a wheel has less rim weight/more hub weight.

we all know from high school physics about inertia, but the values are just too small to matter with human cycling acceleration rates.



A profile of 'Fast Freddie', the USAT 64-69 age group Olympic distance national champion
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

(This post was edited by jackmott on Nov 28, 11 13:48)


styrrell

Nov 28, 11 14:27

Post #14 of 55 (12688 views)
Re: Zipp Firecrest 303 vs 404 [glib] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

"What are you using to calculate the red?

What difference between 100grams on a frame and 100grams on a wheelset?

Is there a difference between two wheelsets, one with a 800 gram hub and 200 gram rim and the other with a 700 gram hub and 300 gram rim? (same spokes)"


As Jack said analytic cycling is an excellent tool. As far as how the weight is distributed between hubs and rims, thats not a very big deal at all. Less weight is pretty much less weight, if you can remove a 100 grams from a rim, do it, if you can get a lighter hub do that. Ideally do both.

As far as your 303FC vs 404FC, I'd ask Zipp if they have a comparison. They tend to be pretty open. If the difference do tend to be what you have gotten so far keep in mind that the steeper the hill the more weight is magnified and the less aero matters. So at 4% the analtysis shows a wash but a 8% or 12% hill is going to show a much greater delta. Also analytic cycling also assumes you ride at a steady state. Newtons law is F=Ma assuming a ride has a steady a is going to give very small deltas for F. I pride myself on being an excellent pacer, but I don't think I've ever ridden very far without changing speeds. Its still not not going to make 100 grams turn a Cat4 rider into a Pro, but it will make it bigger.

The other thing I don't think most people take into effect is real world riding conditions. I do a lot of group riding in hilly areas with riders who are better than I am. I can hold my own on the flats and rolling hills. Drafting skills, taking shorter pulls, trying to be at the front when a hill starts and then drifting to the back as you climb can all help. In any ride or race when the pace is high and you hit a steep or long climb is where you start to see people shelled off the back. that holds true for local group rides and it holds true for the TdF. If two wheels are almost equal but one has a slight benefit one has a slight benefit on a climb, I'd chose the benefit on the climb. Even if I'm 15 meters behind the front group on a climb its hell to catch back on. Then you are solo riding vs a group of strong guys.

Styrrell


goodboyr

Nov 28, 11 15:09

Post #15 of 55 (12634 views)
Re: Zipp Firecrest 303 vs 404 [styrrell] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thanks. I'm actually usually the one pulling in our group, so I went with the 404fc's. Took the great deal at bicycleoutfittersindy.com.


styrrell

Nov 28, 11 15:20

Post #16 of 55 (12613 views)
Re: Zipp Firecrest 303 vs 404 [goodboyr] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Bastard. Just kidding, but it had to be said for the guys that are trying to hold on that now have to try that much harder.

Styrrell


goodboyr

Nov 28, 11 15:23

Post #17 of 55 (12609 views)
Re: Zipp Firecrest 303 vs 404 [styrrell] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Damn straight!

Ps. Fully expected Tom A. to chime in on this thread, but guess you wore him out on the other one.


Tom A.

Nov 28, 11 16:55

Post #18 of 55 (12569 views)
Re: Zipp Firecrest 303 vs 404 [goodboyr] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

goodboyr wrote:
Ps. Fully expected Tom A. to chime in on this thread, but guess you wore him out on the other one.

My only take on this is that if one insists on running 23C or greater tires, then they're probably better off on the FC303s.

If 21C or 22C tires are OK with the rider, then the FC404 is most likely the best all-around choice.



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/


Tom A.

Nov 28, 11 16:58

Post #19 of 55 (12563 views)
Re: Zipp Firecrest 303 vs 404 [styrrell] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

styrrell wrote:
Even if I'm 15 meters behind the front group on a climb its hell to catch back on. Then you are solo riding vs a group of strong guys.

That's because you are trading off the aero for weight. It's easier to catch back on after a climb with more aero equipment ;-)



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/


goodboyr

Nov 28, 11 17:23

Post #20 of 55 (12526 views)
Re: Zipp Firecrest 303 vs 404 [Tom A.] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Tom A. wrote:
goodboyr wrote:

Ps. Fully expected Tom A. to chime in on this thread, but guess you wore him out on the other one.


My only take on this is that if one insists on running 23C or greater tires, then they're probably better off on the FC303s.

If 21C or 22C tires are OK with the rider, then the FC404 is most likely the best all-around choice.

Interesting..........22c vs 23c would make it different. I thought the aero advantage of the 404's at the usual yaws was large enough on either size. I will repeat that I wish Zipp would publish good "apples to apples" numbers with various tire widths so that informed choices can be made.


styrrell

Nov 28, 11 17:27

Post #21 of 55 (12517 views)
Re: Zipp Firecrest 303 vs 404 [Tom A.] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Typically not. Most of the time after a climb the fastest guys are the best descenders, regardless of equipment,

Styrrell


bmeer

Nov 28, 11 17:50

Post #22 of 55 (12485 views)
Re: Zipp Firecrest 303 vs 404 [goodboyr] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

goodboyr wrote:
Thanks. I'm actually usually the one pulling in our group, so I went with the 404fc's. Took the great deal at bicycleoutfittersindy.com.

i looked at that but it looks like they're the regular 404s and not the firecrest 404.



---------------------------------------
Fruit snacks are for winners


goodboyr

Nov 28, 11 18:08

Post #23 of 55 (12465 views)
Re: Zipp Firecrest 303 vs 404 [bmeer] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

bmeer wrote:
goodboyr wrote:
Thanks. I'm actually usually the one pulling in our group, so I went with the 404fc's. Took the great deal at bicycleoutfittersindy.com.


i looked at that but it looks like they're the regular 404s and not the firecrest 404.

They stock the firecrest ones too, and the christmas11 25% off code applies


Tom A.

Nov 28, 11 18:10

Post #24 of 55 (12462 views)
Re: Zipp Firecrest 303 vs 404 [styrrell] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

styrrell wrote:
Typically not. Most of the time after a climb the fastest guys are the best descenders, regardless of equipment,

Sure...but also typically the better climbers aren't necessarily the best descenders either. It also depends on the course.

Here's what I know (yeah, n=1, I know...whatever)...my only road race podium (and near win) of the past few years was on a course with an ~7mile, relatively straight, gradual descent into the finish after the "decisive" climb. I was dropped by the lead group but was able to catch back on ~1/2 way down that descent. Judging by the way I passed (and then pulled up to the lead group) a significant number of riders (at least 6) who climbed better than me (riders who would not have caught back on otherwise...and some of them told me so after the race) I'm thinking the fact I was running Jet90s and an aero bottle on my aluminum Soloist helped a bunch in allowing me to catch back on.

Even 2 to 3 lbs. less weight wouldn't have kept me from getting dropped on the ~1 mile, 8% "climb"...I was easily 20-30s back over the crest. According to analyticcycling.com, 1 to 1.5 kg less mass would only have made me faster by ~3-5s, or ~15-22 meters further ahead over the duration of the climb.



http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/


styrrell

Nov 28, 11 19:11

Post #25 of 55 (12395 views)
Re: Zipp Firecrest 303 vs 404 [Tom A.] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

The group I ride with typically has a national champion and an Armed services champion who rode domestic pro for a few years. If I lose contact even for a much more than a few seconds its pretty much a done deal, but the ride is the best training around.

Styrrell

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