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10K equivalent of a 60:00 40K TT?
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35:00? What do you think?

World record for a 40K is probably around 48:00 minutes. 60:00 is +25%
World best for a road 10K is about 27:00. +25% is 33:15, but this seems way harder in comparison to a 60:00 40K

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Re: 10K equivalent of a 60:00 40K TT? [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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35 seems like it would be harder too, but I say that as a tremendously mediocre runner. :)
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Re: 10K equivalent of a 60:00 40K TT? [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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tri_yoda wrote:
35:00? What do you think?

World record for a 40K is probably around 48:00 minutes. 60:00 is +25%
World best for a road 10K is about 27:00. +25% is 33:15, but this seems way harder in comparison to a 60:00 40K

Your math is neglecting that the power required to cycle faster varies with the cube of the velocity while in running it is directly proportional to the velocity.
My WAG is ~37:30 10k.

Hugh

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Re: 10K equivalent of a 60:00 40K TT? [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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I vote for 37:30. I did this by arbitrarily deciding that an 18 minute 5k and a 1hr 40k are about equal and then using Jack Daniels VDOT table to convert to 10k.

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Re: 10K equivalent of a 60:00 40K TT? [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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Power in cycling needs to increase exponentially to get higher speeds (due to wind resistance); that 's why straight percentages don't work.

From experience, I'd say a 37:00 10k (6min miles) is equivalent to a 1hr. 40k (especially given all the aero goodies for cyclists these days....and the relative lack of improvement in running tech).
For this I'm assuming top tech in both sports (i.e. aero bars, frame, wheels, helmet, and skinsuit for the bike; and racing 5-6oz. flats for the run).

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Re: 10K equivalent of a 60:00 40K TT? [sciguy] [ In reply to ]
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sciguy wrote:
tri_yoda wrote:
35:00? What do you think?

World record for a 40K is probably around 48:00 minutes. 60:00 is +25%
World best for a road 10K is about 27:00. +25% is 33:15, but this seems way harder in comparison to a 60:00 40K


Your math is neglecting that the power required to cycle faster varies with the cube of the velocity while in running it is directly proportional to the velocity.
My WAG is ~37:30 10k.

Hugh

Excellent point. I knew the "linear" conversion numbers did not make sense;)
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Re: 10K equivalent of a 60:00 40K TT? [Titanflexr] [ In reply to ]
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Titanflexr wrote:
Power in cycling needs to increase exponentially to get higher speeds (due to wind resistance); that 's why straight percentages don't work.

Quadratically.
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Re: 10K equivalent of a 60:00 40K TT? [Titanflexr] [ In reply to ]
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Titanflexr wrote:
Power in cycling needs to increase exponentially to get higher speeds (due to wind resistance); that 's why straight percentages don't work.

From experience, I'd say a 37:00 10k (6min miles) is equivalent to a 1hr. 40k (especially given all the aero goodies for cyclists these days....and the relative lack of improvement in running tech).
For this I'm assuming top tech in both sports (i.e. aero bars, frame, wheels, helmet, and skinsuit for the bike; and racing 5-6oz. flats for the run).

I'll take "common benchmarks that Jackmott can't break" for $100, Alex. ;-)


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Re: 10K equivalent of a 60:00 40K TT? [Titanflexr] [ In reply to ]
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I would agree....I say the 6min/mile mark in a 10K is a good one to compare to a 60 min 40K TT.....


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Re: 10K equivalent of a 60:00 40K TT? [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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Depends on the athlete (I suppose your question was a general question about humans).

Since I started triathlons at age 44 (I'm 54 now), I have on several occassions hit or just missed 60 minutes for 40 k. alas, the best I've been able to do during this time frame for 10k is 44 and change....I'm "known" as a decent biker and a plodding runner...

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Last edited by: rcmioga: Apr 18, 11 18:32
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Re: 10K equivalent of a 60:00 40K TT? [rcmioga] [ In reply to ]
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I think you mistyped 40 min, if so, I agree with you (60 min for 40K).
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Re: 10K equivalent of a 60:00 40K TT? [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
I'll take "common benchmarks that Jackmott can't break" for $100, Alex. ;-)

Doh! LOL!

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Re: 10K equivalent of a 60:00 40K TT? [Titanflexr] [ In reply to ]
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and a very calm day with lots of straight flat roads.........
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Re: 10K equivalent of a 60:00 40K TT? [rich_m] [ In reply to ]
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Damni I would need a straight out with a 15 mph wind and a 2% downhill for 10k or 40k to hit both ogf them benchmark times.

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Re: 10K equivalent of a 60:00 40K TT? [Titanflexr] [ In reply to ]
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I think the easy way to do this is look at results for tris and where times generally place you. In my case, I'll be top 5 in local races in the swim, and top 1-3 for the run, and usually 10-20 for the bike (with only a clip on bar). Given that in years past I hovered around 1:02-05 for the bike and could hold 5:20 minute miles for the run, I think your numbers are about right.
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Re: 10K equivalent of a 60:00 40K TT? [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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Higher than 35 IMO. 37 or 38 would be my guess. I feel like i'm pretty balanced in the bike and run department and I can go 57min on a flattish course on a calm day and have a 36.30 10k PR. I would be willing to bet you will see similar times for people that are going sub 1hr open 40k that are regionally competitive AG triathletes.
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Re: 10K equivalent of a 60:00 40K TT? [goallout] [ In reply to ]
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I would argue that your bike is much better than your run.. I would also argue that the average triathletes bike is much better than his run which would explain your seemingly equal disciplines. Just one man's opinion :D

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Re: 10K equivalent of a 60:00 40K TT? [Murphy'sLaw] [ In reply to ]
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being an expert at this particular benchmark I can assure you a 37min 10k would be much harder than a 1 hour 40k, assuming you are as much of an aero geek as me.

I am certain I will break the hour for 40k this year while still training the run

I don't know that i will ever do a 37min 10k even if I only ran.

But if you have the 'average' triathlete equipment and position, those two benchmarks may be just about right.



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Last edited by: jackmott: Apr 18, 11 19:34
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Re: 10K equivalent of a 60:00 40K TT? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think we should consider triathletes in the equation...we are always going to have a relative strength toward running or biking. I was a guy who could go 34 flat in a 10k but never broke an hour in a 40k. Apparently the only crappy cyclist here? :)

Seems like you should compare the drop-off between the 40k world record and some measure of the population slower than that (top age groupers? average joes?) for cyclists only and find what % slower than WR did the magic 1 hour time fall.

Then apply that same percentage drop between the WR 10k and the same equivalent population in running.

Thoughts?
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Re: 10K equivalent of a 60:00 40K TT? [jpb] [ In reply to ]
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jpb wrote:
Titanflexr wrote:
Power in cycling needs to increase exponentially to get higher speeds (due to wind resistance); that 's why straight percentages don't work.


Quadratically.

Actually it's the cube (aero drag force increases quadratically, but the power needed to overcome aero drag is F x v).

Asad
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Re: 10K equivalent of a 60:00 40K TT? [ericj076] [ In reply to ]
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that would change the question considerably.
a sub 60 40k for someone who is only a cyclist is trivial. if you can't do it you probably leave the sport unless you are a sprint specialist.

I guess the same would be true of a 37min 10k if you are just a runner, but I am not as familiar with that, and running does not so much segregate the tourists from the competitive guys as cycling does.




ericj076 wrote:
I don't think we should consider triathletes in the equation...we are always going to have a relative strength toward running or biking. I was a guy who could go 34 flat in a 10k but never broke an hour in a 40k. Apparently the only crappy cyclist here? :)

Seems like you should compare the drop-off between the 40k world record and some measure of the population slower than that (top age groupers? average joes?) for cyclists only and find what % slower than WR did the magic 1 hour time fall.

Then apply that same percentage drop between the WR 10k and the same equivalent population in running.

Thoughts?



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: 10K equivalent of a 60:00 40K TT? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Im pretty sure even sprint specialist could do it!

Im with the 36=60...

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Re: 10K equivalent of a 60:00 40K TT? [asad137] [ In reply to ]
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I knew as soon as I saw a reply to this post what it was gonna say. Which is to say you're right, and i hadn't thought it all the way through.
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Re: 10K equivalent of a 60:00 40K TT? [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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I think looking at a number of data sets with large sample sizes would be the best way to solve this.

At Age Group Nationals last year (both bike and run were hilly and close enough to 40k and 10k respectively to give an accurate sense of the relationship), a 1:00:00 for the bike was the 61st fastest split, the 61st fastest run split was 39:08. So convert that to a fresh, open 10k and you're looking at ~36:30-37:00 minutes. The heat though was definitely a bigger factor on the run than the bike - I ran 5.5 minutes slower for the 10k there than I'd split in a 10 mile race, and I think a few others (nearly everyone but vanort) had equally crappy runs there. So who knows. That said, I think this would be a better approach than percentages.

If only triathlon courses were accurate, we could just look at like 50 different races with large, deep fields, and come up with an agreed upon conversion.

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Re: 10K equivalent of a 60:00 40K TT? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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being an expert at this particular benchmark I can assure you a 37min 10k would be much harder than a 1 hour 40k, assuming you are as much of an aero geek as me.

Yep. My best 40k bike ride is 56 minutes... 2 years ago.

My best 10k run is 40 minutes... 26 years ago.

But I never ran that much and don't run at all now.

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