Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: FIST 301: Are you ready for grad school? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Dan all this confusion must be causing you to pull out what hair you have left ;-) I recall years ago pretty much figuring this out intuitively. I think I called reach "effective top tube length" in my little spread sheet file. I bought my first two tri bikes totally sight unseen just off the geometry charts and it worked fine. I think folks are getting way too worked up over this...it is not that complicated.

When will you have your bike selection data base available with links to the manufactures sites with "Doubleclick" counters giving you some nice revenue for all this work? That would actually be a great service. Thanks!
Quote Reply
Re: FIST 301: Are you ready for grad school? [j-hud] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"How do you know when your position is optimized, rather than just acceptable?"

in broad strokes, the answer is: do you find yourself constantly urged toward a change? for example, do you find yourself moving forward on the saddle, or wanting to, but you can't, because the saddle won't adjust further forward? if so, then, you probably aren't optimized. however, this doesn't necessarily mean that your seat angle is too shallow. it might mean that your cockpit is too long - you're too stretched out, and moving forward on the saddle might simply be a ploy to adopt a correct cockpit. the point is, if you feel like there's something about your position that you feel needs to be different, then - just like anything else in life - your instincts are probably right. if you feel you need a change in your life, you probably do.

that's in broad strokes. if we drill down a little closer - for example, if i had you up on a fit bike and i was able to execute changes right then - my answer is this: what's the LEAST comfortable thing about your position? this takes a bit of "body-awareness". you have to reflect, and adopt as best you can some sensitivity into your approach. have you ever laid in bed, at night, and relaxed yourself, one body part at a time? likewise, when you're aboard your bike riding, think about every body part, and ask yourself what's least comfortable about your bike. that's what needs to get fixed first. fix it. then, ask yourself what's next. fix that. eventually, you'll run out of things to fix. you're optimized

that's how pros have achieved their positions over a period of riding their bikes for a few years. the reason they got there in a HURRY is that you're riding 75 miles a week and you can suffer thru a bad position. they're riding 400 miles a week, and they can't.

obviously, there are tools that help accelerate this. a good fit bike. several different saddles. several different aerobars. a selection of stems. a selection of aerobar extensions. even if you simply found a bike shop with a good fit bike and hopped aboard and played around until you thought you had a good position, and then checked here on this forum to see of the resulting fit coordinates made intuitive sense, then you could make changes to your existing bike to adopt the new reality you achieved on the fit bike. it would be worth that bike shop's while. you'd certainly have to buy stuff to make your new reality happen.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: FIST 301: Are you ready for grad school? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Dan, I a follow up to your response just above....

If I'm uncomfortable on my bike, then I get on a fit bike and it 'feels better' while I'm on it, that isn't necessarily a reflection of how I'd feel after 90' with that new fit. So, how is the fitting 'in your world/how you teach it' take that into account? It might feel better for the 3-5 minutes on the fit bike, but it may not be 'better' long term. Hope this makes sense.....

Sorry if this isn't a 301 level question.
Quote Reply
Re: FIST 301: Are you ready for grad school? [mjpwooo] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
i don't think:

a) your optimized tri position has to evolve a lot over time;
b) you need a lot of time to adapt to your optimized position;
c) your best 15 minute position is very different from your best 5 hour position.

i do think:

a) you'll never be comfortable, for 30sec, 30min, or 3hr, on a saddle that you don't like;
b) likewise on aerobars you don't like;
c) likewise in a position that isn't right.

it's like of like meeting the "right" gal. a part of what makes her right is that you know what you're looking for; that you're looking for the right sorts of things in a gal; that you have your priorities right; and that you've done what you need to do to be the right guy. if all that is in place, the right gal will be right, right away, and for a long time after.

likewise, if you're a fit, trim triathlete, and you know everything a good position consists of in theory, then you'll what to look for in practice, and you're likely to find it.

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: FIST 301: Are you ready for grad school? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
So, know your coordinates, then match those up to the right bike. Once you hop on, with the right help (trained fitter), you'll just know the fit works, (somewhat) irregardless of how long you're on your new fitting bike.

Is that about right?

Please come to Tampa.....
Quote Reply
Re: FIST 301: Are you ready for grad school? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Hey Dan,

How do you account for 2 position seat posts. Meaning a manufacture offers bike X and the geometry information published is for the bike at 76*, but the post can also be placed at 78*. Now I am speaking strictly from the point of numbers for the bike, not what the customer will or will not need.

I realize this does not change the stack or reach of the frame, but does influence frame selection.

Cheers,

Richard Nixon, Fit2Tri Multisport Inc.
Fit2Tri,
rich@fit2tri.com
Discount code, slowtwithch
Quote Reply
Re: FIST 301: Are you ready for grad school? [Irondicknixon] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"How do you account for 2 position seat posts."

let's take rupaul as an example. sometimes he dresses like a guy. sometimes he dressed like a gal. but if you look lower down, you'll know the truth.

same thing with a bike sporting a 2-position seat post. is it a 75° bike? or a 79° bike? look lower down, and you'll know the truth.

the "lower down" is to be found in two places: the bike's stack and reach, and, lower down yet: the bike's front/center (the distance between the bottom bracket and the front wheel axle.

let's take two bikes as an example: kestrel's talon and cervelo's p3. each has a 2-position post. but if you look down at the bikes' stack and reach, one is very narrow/tall, the other is moderately long/low. and if you look at their front/centers, the talon's is short, the p3's is long.

the talon is so narrow/tall it's really not even a tri bike, it's a road race bike. it's meant to be ridden in the shallow seat post config. the p3, because it's long/low, can't be ridden in the shallow seat post config. that bike won't fit anybody if ridden that way, except perhaps by somebody who's riding mid-steep and rides with the saddle in the rearward hole with the saddle slid all the way forward on its rails.

during the media event surrounding the unveiling of felt's DA, one road bike journalist asked, "i notice you don't have the two position post, i suppose that's available for those who ride in the conventional position?"

the answer, from felt's dave koesel (superdave here): "this is the new convention. when we took all the garmin riders into the tunnel, every one of them was better off in the forward position. so, if road racers won't ride the rearward position - even when encumbered by UCI regs - why would we continue to make bikes with that position on the seat post?"

or if these weren't his exact words, they were fairly close.

the only reason for the rearward position in most well made tri bikes is for dealers encumbered by backward thinking. but occasionally you find a bike, like the talon, that needs to be ridden with the saddle rearward. that bike shouldn't, in my mind, have a forward position any more than the felt DA needed to have a rearward position.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: FIST 301: Are you ready for grad school? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
On this:



Why did you make F the distance to the arm pads, and not the distance to the place you grip onto the aero bars? I find that the pads can move around a little bit, especially as pads now come in a variety of shapes, but where my hands are (on the shifters or right by them) is not affected by the pads.
Quote Reply
Re: FIST 301: Are you ready for grad school? [Frenchman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"Why did you make F the distance to the arm pads, and not the distance to the place you grip onto the aero bars?"

we have both. look at C. we list D as well because of the difference in where folks like their aerobar pads to sit under their forearms.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: FIST 301: Are you ready for grad school? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
"How do you account for 2 position seat posts."

let's take rupaul as an example. sometimes he dresses like a guy. sometimes he dressed like a gal. but if you look lower down, you'll know the truth.

same thing with a bike sporting a 2-position seat post. is it a 75° bike? or a 79° bike? look lower down, and you'll know the truth.

the "lower down" is to be found in two places: the bike's stack and reach, and, lower down yet: the bike's front/center (the distance between the bottom bracket and the front wheel axle.

let's take two bikes as an example: kestrel's talon and cervelo's p3. each has a 2-position post. but if you look down at the bikes' stack and reach, one is very narrow/tall, the other is moderately long/low. and if you look at their front/centers, the talon's is short, the p3's is long.

the talon is so narrow/tall it's really not even a tri bike, it's a road race bike. it's meant to be ridden in the shallow seat post config. the p3, because it's long/low, can't be ridden in the shallow seat post config. that bike won't fit anybody if ridden that way, except perhaps by somebody who's riding mid-steep and rides with the saddle in the rearward hole with the saddle slid all the way forward on its rails.

during the media event surrounding the unveiling of felt's DA, one road bike journalist asked, "i notice you don't have the two position post, i suppose that's available for those who ride in the conventional position?"

the answer, from felt's dave koesel (superdave here): "this is the new convention. when we took all the garmin riders into the tunnel, every one of them was better off in the forward position. so, if road racers won't ride the rearward position - even when encumbered by UCI regs - why would we continue to make bikes with that position on the seat post?"

or if these weren't his exact words, they were fairly close.

the only reason for the rearward position in most well made tri bikes is for dealers encumbered by backward thinking. but occasionally you find a bike, like the talon, that needs to be ridden with the saddle rearward. that bike shouldn't, in my mind, have a forward position any more than the felt DA needed to have a rearward position.


That pretty well covers it, but we still make 3 different seatposts for the new DA. We have a "slack" seatpost for those that ride a conventional saddle with a relatively low hieght that must remain behind the BB by 5cm. That seatpost is an aftermarket item. We've got the "team" version of the seatpost with the Di2 battery mount and a much more forward position. This version is still designed to abide by the 5cm rule but not every saddle and every seat height can manage to stay legal with this post. At ~78 degrees it also may not be steep enough. The production seatpost is further forward yet. As yet unseen, this seatpost will come with the OEM bicycle as it suits 95% of the consumers buying the bike. It can be set up north of 80 degrees for most configurations and has the battery location back underneath the BB shell on the downtube with the aero cover over the battery.

-SD

https://www.kickstarter.com/...bike-for-the-new-era
Quote Reply
Re: FIST 301: Are you ready for grad school? [SuperDave] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"That pretty well covers it"

especially the part about rupaul, who, as i understand it, rides a felt. or if he doesn't, he probably should.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: FIST 301: Are you ready for grad school? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
How about posting some pictures of bikes with the riders on them showing correct frame size and correct overall fit (saddle height, aerobar setup, etc.)?
Quote Reply
Re: FIST 301: Are you ready for grad school? [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Is there a database of aerobar geometries we could see? It doesn't seem that manufacturers publish that information.

________________________________________________________
Ben Waite | Zipp Senior Design Engineer | The Power of Bicycles: Please contribute to World Bicycle Relief | Zipp | SRAM | Quarq |
Last edited by: waitebe: Jan 11, 11 11:22
Quote Reply

Prev Next