Zones?

Hey Matt, I try to ride as steady as possible, as I assume most others do as well. Maybe Kona would be different, as it is for the pros, if there is a rush to get on a train of fast riders. I don't think there are enough fast riders at most IMs to worry about that, though. I am curious as to your strategic considerations behind pushing the effort initially.

As far as gambling the last portion of the run, I've never been in a position where I have the reserves left to do anything but try to maintain my pace.

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My egocentric blog

I would say that a zone 3 effort on the bike during the first portion is a steep gamble and exactly what EVERYONE falls into when racing an Ironman. You've been training hard, tapered well and out of the swim you feel like GOLD... push it for a hour or so and demolish your chances at a good run.

?Gordo? put it best... If you get to marathon and feel that you underbiked yourself, well good for you cause you have 26.2 miles to make it up.

I can tell this thread is gonna be one-way traffic so I'll stick up for the Faris style "off the front" swimmer/cyclists ;) Well, kind of...

For my last IM I had every intention to ride a deliberate, controlled, Z2 type steady-state effort (RPE, no power) but the start of race unfolded a lot differently to how I'd expected...the opportunity presented itself to do something special and I rolled the dice. Couldn't tell you if it was "zone 3", but it was harder than I'd planned...it felt good at the time and I was confident in my build-up...banked a tonne of time, adjusted my run expectations and closed out the race as best I could. I didn't run fast, just fast enough. The final outcome exceeded even my most ambitious pre-race goals...whether that was by good management or good luck is subject to debate. FWIW, my swim was a fair bit harder than "zone 2" effort, but that's a whole different subject...

So to address your question, if you're gambling the first portion of the bike, then you are by default, without question, gambling big on the last portion of the run (or the entire run for that matter)...I wouldn't recommend that strategy unless there were sufficient reward to warrant it. If you do try it at least you won't die wondering...

PS...the above is terrible advice for 99% of the people reading it, so don't listen to me...just giving another n=1 perspective. :)

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blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
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I train 100% of my long bike rides at the exact HR zone I plan to race my IM. I average about 88-90% of my bike LT, so depending on what Zone formula you may use, that's like a High Zone 2 or low Zone 3. I train it so much that on race day it's a second nature pacing which I am well acclimated for. It has also proven to be a level of effort that still allows me to get in all my nutrition and hydration without a problem, which is also key. I said in another recent thread here about IM training that too many AG'ers train their long rides too easy too often.

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I definitely gamble at the end, but I'm also more of a conservative person and just trying to race the best race I can. Last year at IMWI I passed a bunch of people in my AG and some pro's that blew up at the end of the race because I went easy on the swim and bike. When it got hot I was able to adjust and not slow down, while others had already blown their race.

As mentioned by someone else you can make up a ton of ground in 26.2 miles if you went too easy on the swim/bike, but just having to walk a mile or two because of going to hard early will cost you.

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A few things make me edgy:

1. First, I know that the starting line at 2010 IMWI for M30-34 is filled with an unusual amount of talent:

- Justin Henkel
- Joe Kurian
- Phil Bzudsek
- Scott Bowe
- Pete Metz
- Jeff Tarkowski

And that's just the guys from Wisconsin. Henkel ran sub 3 last year; Kurian was first amateur last year; Phil has ran 3:18; Bowe did 9:4X; Metz is questionable; and I wouldn't be surprised if Tarkowski is under 9:10. Throw in a few national guys and the GERMANS it's going to be a hell of a race.

2. Mentally, I feel better in the front than having to catch up. I would prefer to come off the bike in the top 50 not attempt to run down my competition. At Madison the first 3 miles are downhill and a lot of my fellow competitors will be running those at 6:00 flat. So, if I run the first 3 miles at 6 flat, I haven't made up any ground. If I run miles 7-9 at 7:00 I "may" catch a few guys. Yes, 26.2 miles is a long stretch of pavement but I suspect the top 10 M30-34 will run sub 3:15.

The last time I did IMWI (2008), I lost a lot of ground in the first 20 miles (Monona Terrace to Verona) by going easy. I came out the water in 53, but the 58-59 minute guys passed me by Verona (i.e. Mike Meteyer, etc.). Yes, it was my first IM, but I am considering "sticking with the competition" this time around.

Given that, I am considering pushing it until Verona, maybe not zone 3 but certainly enough to keep me in the game. Last year it was interesting to watch the race. The pros road very differently than the AG'ers by sticking together as a pack. For the AG'ers, Kurian managed to get to the front by loop 2 of the bike and hang on for the amateur win and Brunold was up in front with him as well. In years past, Brunold usually gets to the front by loop 2. Henkel was no different in 2008 as first amateur. At least at WI, the fastest amateurs usually come of the bike in the lead if not in it.

But maybe my fitness will be good enough to simply ride zone 2 and end the bike portion in the top tier of my age.

In other words, how much risk and when to risk it are tactical questions for those seeking to be the first amateur? first age-grouper? kona qualifer? personal best?

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Matt Amman

Maybe I'm completely wrong, but my plan for my upcoming IM (as of now, still time to change my approach) is to race at what I train at. It happens to be right around a low Zone 3. First of all, if you train at this output level, and you know you can be successful at it (proper nutrition, strong running after), why go less? Also (from my understanding), there is not a magical "physiological switch" when you cross a x% power level to go from Zone 2 to Zone 3 something fundamentally changes in how your body is functioning. So I look at it not so much which specific zone I am in, but what is the average power I can maintain (and considering a RPE that just feels right) and still finish strong. With that being said, I am only about 8 months into power training and 3 years from my last, and only, IM.

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Fraser Bicycle | First Endurance

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Okay, so your goal is to win your age group and/or be first amateur. I think your primary consideration should be what strategy is going to lead to your fastest race possible, but maybe you could convince me otherwise.

I'm not familiar with IMMoo's course, so I'm entirely clear on exactly when you intend to push the pace. Is it from the start of the bike? If you're a 53 minute swimmer, in addition to being the bane of my existence, it seems like this would be a bad strategy for achieving your fastest time. First, you're intentionally riding unevenly. Second, you're going to minimize your legal draft advantage on the bike by going hard the first hour. The only potential upsides I see are if you believe obtaining a large lead will demoralize your competitors or cause them to alter their strategy to close the gap, the latter of which presupposes that your competitors actually know how far ahead you are. These upsides are tenuous.

On the other hand, you may mean that you are considering sticking with the slower swimmers once they catch you on the bike. This strategy may be wise because it helps you go faster. Hell, you could take the first 20 miles of the bike easy just to save energy and allow your competitors to catch you so that you can legally draft behind them. Then your consideration is whether or not you can out run the guys you are riding with. If not, you'd have to go Chris Lieto style off the front at some point during the ride to try to put time into them.

I think I'd either (1) ride my own race by pushing the bike the entire time, not just the first hour, if I wanted to take a risk or (2) perhaps ride easy initially but only if I believed I could outrun everyone else.

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My egocentric blog

This has generally been my race plan as well.
Cruise the swim , 75-80%RPE on the bike , run a smart marathon.

Now the breakdown of it is , my swimming is crap (1.20-1.25 ) , I break the bike up into sections depending on the course layout , but the first 1.5-2 hours I ride at about 70-75%RPE and slowly pick it up to 75-80% over the balance. I always plan to get to the marathon with legs as fresh as possible and this is at the front of my mind throughout the bike. I effectively ride my own race with zero outside influences.

As far as the mary goes, I try to maintain an efficient pace to 30km's attempting to conserve as much enrergy as possible.....then give it everything I've got over the last 12km.

Although this has not landed me any podiums , I usually run 90-95% of the marathon. Run times are 50-60 mins off my stand alone marathon best ...... so that tellls me that either I still paced the bike incorrectly , went too hard , lack bike fitness for the pace , paced the run wrong , lack sufficient run training , was overcome by climate conditions.

So ....... although I have not gone sub 10 , I know where I'm going , but will learn a lot from this thread :)

Cheers,

Terry

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"You are never too old to set another goal or to dream a new dream" - Les Brown
"Discipline is the bridge between goals and accomplishment" - Jim Rohn

Zones?

LOL!

Thank goodness all this stuff came after my time!

But to the OP, you want to be able to get off the bike positioned well and then be able to run to the best of your abilities. Generally speaking, I find people over-cook it on the bike and finish the bike with not enough left in the tank. Quite frankly an IM bike ride should feel not that much harder than a long training ride, if it is, you are going to hard or you are not as fit as you think. If you are running the marathon with-in 15 - 20 minutes of your best stand-alone marathon( and those were good all out efforts), then you know, you are running close to your absolute best in the IM.

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

Just go till you blow. Hopefully that's 135-138 miles into the race.

Matt,

Just a few questions ?
- What is your run time off the bike as compared to your stand alone marathon time ?
- Is your bike fitness and run fitness ( independantly ) comparable to your competitors ?

Terry

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"You are never too old to set another goal or to dream a new dream" - Les Brown
"Discipline is the bridge between goals and accomplishment" - Jim Rohn

Hi Matt,

Great question! I really wanted to go sub 10 in Arizona last fall. I am not a super fast runner (steady) or swimmer, but do have a pretty strong biking background. This was my 10th IM race, typical finish time of 10:40 to 11:00.

I too have heard the old advice that 5 minutes too fast on the bike can make for 30 minutes too slow on the run. Nice words, but they deserve to be taken with a grain of salt.

Anyway, I decided I had to take some risks, and spent quite a while in the Zone 3 power range. I had to catch up to the faster swimmers, and then get through the draft packs (which were accompanied my marshalls "monitoring" the pack riders-but that is a another story). I knew that I was taking a bit of a risk, but I had decided that I was willing to accept the consequences.

I rode much of the race in low zone 3, rising to low zone 4 at times (uphill sections into the wind on the Bee Line). My bike split was 5 hours (P.B. by ~ 30 minutes). Run went fairly well, I held back until 5km to go, then gave it my all. Came in ~9:57- very happy. :)

I read in this thread about Gordo's bike pacing advice. Gordo's weapon is the run, and I am sure his approach is good for him. I (now) say that if the bike is your weapon, don't be too afraid to use it (within reason).

Cheers- Mike

I suspect the top 10 M30-34 will run sub 3:15.


Top 3 overall amateur run times last year were 3:12, 3:14, 3:14 You really think 10 guys in your age group are running sub 3:15 this year? Last year it was 5 or 6 guys in the whole race who ran that fast. 2 in your age group. A better prediction would be 10-20 guys in your age group are wondering if they can get lucky and ride a little too hard and still run fast enough to win it. 95% of them will destroy their chances. Don't be one of them. Reverse your thinking and start your ride easy. Have the fastest race you are capable of. Ignore the group tactics.

Ride very smart. Eat alot while you do it. Run like hell.

I'm with you Steve ..... someone asked me once what zone I do most of my long rides ..... I told them the eastern time zone :)

As for going hard on the bike and gambling ...... I think this strategy is very good for some and terrible for others so it depends on the individual.

Here is what I mean. When you look at results from some IM races (I noticed Arizona had a lot of these) you see people that throw down bike splits in the 4:50-5:00 range (darn fast AG bike splits) and then follow it up with a run in the 3:25-3:35 range (not even remotely comparable to the bike split).

These results suggest 3 things to me .....

1. The individuals are very good cyclists and mid-calibre runners who need to lay it down and gamble on the bike since they will not run a top-calibre
run split anyway.
2. They overbiked in a big way and need to figure out a balance like maybe adding 10 minutes to their bike split to save 15-20 on the run.
3. They took their 1:00-1:05 swim and jumped in a huge pack and cheated their way to really fast bike split and even though they had help on the
bike effort their runs were not very fast.

If the individual falls into the 1st group they need to keep on gambling and pushing the bike (plus they will be heroes on ST!).
If they fall into 2 they need to work at fine-tuning their strategy. If they fall into 3 they need to grow a pair, quit cheating in their Kona quest and do a race like IMLou or Moo with lots of hills and a time trial start to see what their true level of ability is :)

So of the 7 ironmans I've done. When I've arrived at mile 20, in 4 of them I've been walking for quite a while and unhappy. In 3 of them, I've been running but have a countdown going of how many steps I have left until I can stop (which could also be construed as unhappy I guess ;) ).

I don't think there is any gambling that happens in the last six miles - none. If you have something left to gamble - IMO you've left time on the table.

Conversely, I think what you propose about bike hard for the first 60-90 minutes amounts to the same concept.

I think what evan says is golden. Swim - make the slow swimmers work to catch you (us), and than keep up with them. Alternatively - you can attempt to simply steady state the entire race. It's not about who has the biggest FTP/VDOT, it's about who shows up and measures it out evenly.

IMO - i think you have a tendancy to ride to hard as it is; I'm afraid that if you went into the race with a strategy to ride agressively.....

Another option - swim with me, start the bike and ride smart for 90-120 minutes, then if things are looking up, slowly build into the last 3-3.5 hours. Than hit the run, well running. That pretty much describes what I did in '08 - while that time is slower than what I know you are targeting for this year - I had a break through bike AND run in that race.


You're strong enough that the 4-5 minute over the other M30-34 that I'll give you on the swim, that you can hold them off - with smart conservative pacing. Me on the other hand....you'll need to gamble for that guy.

I absolutely love the last paragraph of this post!

Borders perfectly between confidence and cocky as you tell your competitor to simply pace with you to have his best race and then see what he can do against you on the run after ;-)

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"Chrissie wins because she trains really f'ing hard and races really f'ing hard and was blessed with a huge f'ing motor" Jordan Rapp

put a pothole in the rode, that may take care of scott;-)

sorry i have nothing worthwhile to add, never done the distance.

scott, sorry that was a cheap shot.

Are either of you back at TTT this year?

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Hey Matt,
I was close enough to sub 10 so I'll answer. I never gambled. I trained and raced at the effort I predicted I needed to get a slot and kept it steady the entire race (with PT/305). The only 'gamble' I ever do is to take it easy up the hills and bomb down them. IMHO, lots of saved energy that way.
Good luck,
Jamie

Yeah we are doing the Triple-T again.

Hopefully I'll avoid the potholes this year, so that we can finish.

I am exactly in that group. It is not gambling at all. I ran 3 out of 4 IM within 20 minutes of open marathon time. The only marathon far outside that range came after my only race that I gambled on a 4:3x bike time.

And to the op, the fast bikers just stay within their comfort zone on their best races. They are just faster then the rest, even in their comfort zone. If you are going to push real hard to stay with them they will smoke you on the run, even if you can normally run faster then them. The germans generally can not swim 53, let them play catch up with you. They hammer out of t1 cause they know they are way behind the rest. After 53 swim time the age group race is under control, wait until mile 40 or so when the group dynamics calm down a bit. Staying in groups during the nervous first 1,5 hour takes much more energy then cycling alone. Then look for good groups to ride with (legally of course) after the fast groups are calming down a bit and do a good run.

Well, I'm not sure about your conclusions, but I rode a 4:51 at IMAZ and ran a 3:21 to finsih in 9:20. So in M40-44 I had the 2nd fastest bike split and 9th fastest run and finished 3rd in the AG. I don't think that's too out of balance and I think on that course, anything under 3:30 is a solid AG run split and with a reasonable bike would but you in the top 10. I know in my case I in no way over-rode the bike and I think if you are looking for those examples, it's going to be guys who rode int he low 5's and then ran 3:45+'s. They didn't have that bike fitness, but as far as IMAZ was concerened, the top riders all had very solid runs with one exception in M30-35, a buddy of mune who rode a 4:50 but went on to a 4 hour run due to an injury.

My problem is that I was 28th in the AG in the swim!

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-Of course it's 'effing hard, it's IRONMAN!
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Bryan, what is your FTP and what did your ride at (watts) for your 4:51?