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Wheelcover advantages on a 60mm wheel @ 21-22 mph?
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I competed in my first 1/2 Iron distance event of the year this weekend, and have a set of Hed Jet 60's with WheelBuilder wheel covers. At this distance, I seem to be averaging in the 21-22 mph range to try to not blow up on the run (but blow I did in the 85+ weather -- but this is for another topic).

At this weekend's race the wind picked up during the bike leg (High Cliff 1/2), with long stretches in direct crosswinds and lots of head-on stuff towards the end. The bike handled the wind just fine; I was impressed with how I wasn't tossed around. What I don't like is the added noise and weight to the back of the bike. I know it is not much, but when my concentration goes from thinking about the road ahead and my pacing, to thinking about the noise and weight bouncing around below me, I'd rather take the piece-of-mind rather than a marginal time advantage. Wheelcovers do not sound great on bumpy roads.

Now, as I understand the wheelcovers "should" give me a greater aero advantage than with the 60's by themselves. But how much? At my average speed I'll keep the wheelcovers if there is a significant time savings; but if we are talking a minute or so than with the 60's by themselves then I'll take these off and put my mind at ease. I also don't like the "tape-it" method; I find keeping parts affixed by electrical tape as an inelegant solution.

The next 1/2 is in a month, on another hilly, rolling course so there will be plenty of accelerating and some out-of-the saddle moments. And hopefully running well off the bike.

Thanks.
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Re: Wheelcover advantages on a 60mm wheel @ 21-22 mph? [fishgo] [ In reply to ]
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go here:
http://www.hedcycling.com/...dynamics_technology/

click "jet disc" and then "jet 60"

notice the rather massive difference especially when it gets windy (high yaw angles)

In Reply To:
I competed in my first 1/2 Iron distance event of the year this weekend, and have a set of Hed Jet 60's with WheelBuilder wheel covers. At this distance, I seem to be averaging in the 21-22 mph range to try to not blow up on the run (but blow I did in the 85+ weather -- but this is for another topic).

At this weekend's race the wind picked up during the bike leg (High Cliff 1/2), with long stretches in direct crosswinds and lots of head-on stuff towards the end. The bike handled the wind just fine; I was impressed with how I wasn't tossed around. What I don't like is the added noise and weight to the back of the bike. I know it is not much, but when my concentration goes from thinking about the road ahead and my pacing, to thinking about the noise and weight bouncing around below me, I'd rather take the piece-of-mind rather than a marginal time advantage. Wheelcovers do not sound great on bumpy roads.

Now, as I understand the wheelcovers "should" give me a greater aero advantage than with the 60's by themselves. But how much? At my average speed I'll keep the wheelcovers if there is a significant time savings; but if we are talking a minute or so than with the 60's by themselves then I'll take these off and put my mind at ease. I also don't like the "tape-it" method; I find keeping parts affixed by electrical tape as an inelegant solution.

The next 1/2 is in a month, on another hilly, rolling course so there will be plenty of accelerating and some out-of-the saddle moments. And hopefully running well off the bike.

Thanks.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Wheelcover advantages on a 60mm wheel @ 21-22 mph? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Just the person who I hoped might respond (bought a disc cover in part because of your tag line).

But....I'm not good at converting "grams" to "real world time-and-speed differences". No, I cannot give you the approximate yaw angles and time durations spent in this weekend's race.

What I'm looking for is an "approximate" time savings for going with one versus not going with a wheel cover. If I knew that in an especially windy race, a wheelcover might save five minutes over not having one on, then I'd be likely to keep it on. If it were only 1 minute over that 56 mile course, and I think about it as I go around every road cavity, then I'd leave it off.

Any guesses?
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Re: Wheelcover advantages on a 60mm wheel @ 21-22 mph? [fishgo] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Just the person who I hoped might respond (bought a disc cover in part because of your tag line).

But....I'm not good at converting "grams" to "real world time-and-speed differences". No, I cannot give you the approximate yaw angles and time durations spent in this weekend's race.

What I'm looking for is an "approximate" time savings for going with one versus not going with a wheel cover. If I knew that in an especially windy race, a wheelcover might save five minutes over not having one on, then I'd be likely to keep it on. If it were only 1 minute over that 56 mile course, and I think about it as I go around every road cavity, then I'd leave it off.

Any guesses?

45g of drag @ 30mph (what is typical of aero data) ~= 0.5s/km of time difference at riding speeds...you can do the math from there.

I don't understand why you'd be worried about it over bumps/potholes though...you'd at least be no more worried than you'd be about your tires, no?

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Jun 22, 09 9:45
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Re: Wheelcover advantages on a 60mm wheel @ 21-22 mph? [fishgo] [ In reply to ]
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Did you put electric tape around the wheelcover. When I recieved mine last month I took it on one training ride and was bothered by the noise. Just so happened there was a post on wheelcovers on ST and folks mentioned taping it down. I did and it worked, no more noise and I love my wheelcover now.

"Sometimes you got to learn to hurt"
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Re: Wheelcover advantages on a 60mm wheel @ 21-22 mph? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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he is just distracted by the noise.

and to that I would say, you get used to it =)

In Reply To:
I don't understand why you'd be worried about it over bumps/potholes though...you'd at least be no more worried than you'd be about your tires, no?



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Wheelcover advantages on a 60mm wheel @ 21-22 mph? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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is there really that big of a difference between a clincher and tubular 404, 808, and 1080?

I wonder what tires they were using



Erik
Strava
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Re: Wheelcover advantages on a 60mm wheel @ 21-22 mph? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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Hmmm. Forgive me for momentarily hi-jacking this thread, but I was playing with that tool on the Hed website. They show the Stinger disc drop below 0 on the drag numbers (propulsive?) but they show the Zipp Sub-9 disc never getting close to zero. Wasn't that the big deal with the sub-9? That it had negative drag numbers at certain yaw angles? Just sayin'...


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"I can eat 21 plus a deep-fried turkey!"
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Re: Wheelcover advantages on a 60mm wheel @ 21-22 mph? [Mr. Blonde] [ In reply to ]
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two possibilities

could be the difference in testing protocols (hed tests with casette on the rear wheel, i believe)

or could be hed is full of crap about competitors data
and/or their own

check zipps site for their data and draw your own conclusions

discs tend to have the same trend either way, faster than everything else =)

In Reply To:
Hmmm. Forgive me for momentarily hi-jacking this thread, but I was playing with that tool on the Hed website. They show the Stinger disc drop below 0 on the drag numbers (propulsive?) but they show the Zipp Sub-9 disc never getting close to zero. Wasn't that the big deal with the sub-9? That it had negative drag numbers at certain yaw angles? Just sayin'...



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Wheelcover advantages on a 60mm wheel @ 21-22 mph? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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yeah.. then take that 0.5s/km and divide by 4 for rear wheel. =(
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Re: Wheelcover advantages on a 60mm wheel @ 21-22 mph? [mcdoublee] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, a clincher does not use the most optimized rim profile to allow for the aluminum brake track

Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com
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Re: Wheelcover advantages on a 60mm wheel @ 21-22 mph? [footwerx] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
yeah.. then take that 0.5s/km and divide by 4 for rear wheel. =(

Nah...IIRC, you divide by more like 1.4 (i.e. the rear wheel is about 70% as "effective" as the front).

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Wheelcover advantages on a 60mm wheel @ 21-22 mph? [msuguy512] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Yes, a clincher does not use the most optimized rim profile to allow for the aluminum brake track

I wonder why they don't just change the rim extrusions to make a tapered brake track?? Seems like a "no brainer" to me...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Wheelcover advantages on a 60mm wheel @ 21-22 mph? [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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45g of drag @ 30mph (what is typical of aero data) ~= 0.5s/km of time difference at riding speeds...you can do the math from there.

I don't understand why you'd be worried about it over bumps/potholes though...you'd at least be no more worried than you'd be about your tires, no?[/reply]
Monday is not math day for me. So, 45g @ 30 mph over a 1/2 distance = 45 seconds? Even doubling the g load for a slower time doesn't seem to net a huge time loss, either.

And as for the potholes...the last one I fell into (a mighty nice sized crater) actually ended up cracking the armrests, but the wheel and tire was fine. Go figure.
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Re: Wheelcover advantages on a 60mm wheel @ 21-22 mph? [fishgo] [ In reply to ]
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Jack is right, as usual. But that doesn't mean you should always ride with the wheelcover.

I have a Zipp 900 disk and also a HED Stinger 60 rear. If I were racing High Cliff (never done the race, but I've biked on the course) I MIGHT choose the 60 rear because I like the way the 60 feels for climbing, descending, and turning. I'm just more comfortable with it in those situations, so I think it works better for me for certain courses. I know others who might make the same decision for IM WI.

It's not faster from an aerodynamic standpoint, but the savings with a disk/wheelcover are minimal if you are sacrificing anything due to your own comfort level at various times in the race.

By the way, the Zipp disk is awesome for me on flatter courses without lots of turns. I also like the disk a lot better if there will be sections exposed to meaningful crosswinds (which probably would be my biggest concern about High Cliff, and would ultimately have me showing up with the disk).
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Re: Wheelcover advantages on a 60mm wheel @ 21-22 mph? [fishgo] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
45g of drag @ 30mph (what is typical of aero data) ~= 0.5s/km of time difference at riding speeds...you can do the math from there.

I don't understand why you'd be worried about it over bumps/potholes though...you'd at least be no more worried than you'd be about your tires, no?

Monday is not math day for me. So, 45g @ 30 mph over a 1/2 distance = 45 seconds? Even doubling the g load for a slower time doesn't seem to net a huge time loss, either.

And as for the potholes...the last one I fell into (a mighty nice sized crater) actually ended up cracking the armrests, but the wheel and tire was fine. Go figure.[/reply]
That relationship is just the "rule of thumb"...you have to apply it to the actual drag differences you think you'll encounter. The Hed "yaw calculator" might help you with that as well...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Wheelcover advantages on a 60mm wheel @ 21-22 mph? [fishgo] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Wheelcover advantages on a 60mm wheel @ 21-22 mph? [fishgo] [ In reply to ]
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Peice of mind is everything. You have to keep your mind on the road, your bike, your pedaling, your gear selection, hydration and calories, the competition, not drafting and legal passes, and not getting passed, potholes, turns, push push push etc etc etc.

So if your mind is wondering from these things because you are just not comfortable with your equiptment, then you will not be able to give them your full concentration. I agree with you, go with makes you feel comfortable.

I am in a rim choice decision. I think I have landed on the Jet 60/90 combo. I decided I do not want race specific wheels. If I spend that money I want to use them. And my training loop (7 mile) is all fresh asphault and closed to cars. So I doubt I will damage them there. The disc or disc cover is probably better, everything else being equal. But shakey peice of mind will eat up the aero saving from the rim.
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Re: Wheelcover advantages on a 60mm wheel @ 21-22 mph? [mfbfl] [ In reply to ]
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or, get comfortable with what makes you go fast...

In Reply To:
I agree with you, go with makes you feel comfortable.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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