Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Okay, here's the Phelps discussion thread
Quote | Reply
i know we've batted this around a bit already here and in the lavender room (that secret place where you go, online, if your family isn't looking). but i was talking to a USOC official today, establishing my bona fides, and he said, "no need to explain. i know who you are, i was reading your OpEd this morning, and i followed the link at the end of the story to... nowhere."

well, he's sort of right. this forum is the place that these discussions take place, and the link i put at the end of the article just went to the main forum table. i am guessing, tho, that i need to be more explicit, because i just googled michael phelps along with jim scherr, the USOC's executive director, and that opinion piece here on slowtwitch came up first. accordingly, i'm changing the link at the end of that opinion piece of phelps to this thread specifically (instead of just the main forum table).

one great thing about this forum: you can think fondly of us here for hosting the site, yet be demonstrably, and very apparently, in abject disagreement with me (i love that about you). i think a representative first sentence on this forum might be: "thanks for hosting slowtwtich, dan, but, you ignorant slut...!"

i am therefore gratified to note that in this one narrow case, of michael phelps' suspension, it appears 75 percent of you think as i do (based on the poll we're taking right now on the right hand side of the page you're reading). we may have come to our conclusions for different reasons, but the end result is the same: that michael phelps should not be serving a suspension.

nevertheless, my concern is not for phelps, who will be fine. it's for the behavioral marker the USOC is establishing, that the rules of competition are not the beginning and the end of it; that the USOC has now widened its circumference of sanctionable behavior to include any and all behavior it deems unacceptable.

there is a second point. what i did not write in my OpEd, but what i wonder about, is this: i suspect the religious intolerance exhibited at times over the past decade at the Air Force Academy has as an aggravating cause its location proximate to the (at least) 80 evangelical organizations that call colorado springs headquarters. i therefore wonder whether this apparent need for michael phelps to not only race fairly, but act morally, at all times, has as its impetus the same prime movers that (i suspect) caused the air force academy across town to inject a belief system into what ought to be free of such influences. in other words, if any large organization headquartered in the springs going to be influenced by the evangelicals, as it might be influenced by mormons were it on salt lake city. would the USOC be banning phelps from competition for pic of him toking if it had been headquartered for the past quarter century in, say, portland, oregon? or san francisco?

mind, this is just a guess, and i'm casting about looking for reasons why the USOC seems now to want to exert influence into how we comport ourselves in areas wholly unconnected to the sporting life. i also wonder if this is about morality or legality (phelps is not even guilty of a misdemeanor, he is guilty of behavior which, if prosecuteted, resulting in a conviction, would only then be a misdemeanor). if it's just because it's pot, well, then it's about a moral standard, and then we have to start the discussion of what moral standard. whose moral standard. and that's where i have the problem.

finally, i'm left to wonder where this stops. is the USOC willing to say this begins and ends with those who have been on an olympic team and are still actively competing professional athletes? or those also who aspire to be an olympian? who aspire to be world class? who hold pro cards? who compete at national or world age group or masters championships? or who are simply annual members of federations?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Okay, here's the Phelps discussion thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
+1 on your op-ed.

Make sure the playing field is level. Don't worry yourself with how the living field is played.

-Jot
Quote Reply
Re: Okay, here's the Phelps discussion thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thanks for hosting Slowtwitch, Dan. But, I totally agree with you.

You may be ignorant, and you may be a slut, but I don't know anything about that.


todd

*******************************************
My Blog:
http://www.staggerforwardrejoicing.com
Ultrarunning & Parenting: There is no finish line.
Quote Reply
Re: Okay, here's the Phelps discussion thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Two words:

Ross Rebagliati.



It comes down to a very simple fact - pot is not a performance-enhancing drug.
Quote Reply
Re: Okay, here's the Phelps discussion thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Dan,
Not sure why you're taking aim at the USOC, they didn't suspend Phelps...

Updated Statement from USA Swimming Regarding Michael Phelps (2/5/2009)
USA Swimming has reprimanded Michael Phelps under its Code of Conduct by withdrawing financial support and the eligibility to compete for a period of three months effective today, Feb. 5, 2009.

This is not a situation where any anti-doping rule was violated, but we decided to send a strong message to Michael because he disappointed so many people, particularly the hundreds of thousands of USA Swimming member kids who look up to him as a role model and a hero.

Michael has voluntarily accepted this reprimand and has committed to earn back our trust.


Shawn
TORRE Consulting Services, LLC
http://www.TORREcs.com

Quote Reply
Re: Okay, here's the Phelps discussion thread [ShawnF] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
But by withdrawing eligibility didn't they effectively ban him? You're not banned you're just not eligible to compete. Seems the same to me.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Last edited by: desert dude: Feb 11, 09 15:54
Quote Reply
Re: Okay, here's the Phelps discussion thread [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You're right. But Dan is ranting about the USOC when they didn't revoke his eligibility/suspend him...USA Swimming did.

Shawn
TORRE Consulting Services, LLC
http://www.TORREcs.com

Quote Reply
Re: Okay, here's the Phelps discussion thread [ShawnF] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"Not sure why you're taking aim at the USOC, they didn't suspend Phelps..."

the reason they didn't suspend phelps is that they're not in the suspending business, except that they can remove its charter, or imprimatur (i don't know the term of art) from a national federation. in other words, USA Swimming can suspend phelps, the USOC can suspend (or revoke, or withdraw from) USA Swimming as the NGB representing swimming as the daughter federation of the USOC.

so, yes, you're right, swimming suspended phelps. but you saw very little of chuck weilgus (swimming's ED), and a lot of jim scherr. it was scherr (USOC exec dir) in front of the press. it was quite clear that scherr was running point on this. he was framing this. he was explaining and parsing and interpreting. the USOC was running this phelps thing, and i think any perusal of the mainstream news reports on phelps' suspension would prove this out.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Okay, here's the Phelps discussion thread [ShawnF] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Now what if USA Swimming had its headquarters in Boulder? Do you think they would not only not suspend him, but also award him Lifetime Achievement Award right away?

-

The Triathlon Squad

Like us on Facebook!!!
Quote Reply
Re: Okay, here's the Phelps discussion thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
So, when a NFL player, say a Raider, gets caught doing something illegal, who becomes the point guy? A majority of the time it's Roger Goodell not Al Davis. Now say it's the NFL's most marquee player (nowadays, I don't know who that might be but you get the idea), who would you expect to come out and say something? You better believe it's going to be Goodell.

Look, I don't think they should've suspended Phelps but he is the face of the Olympics in the US (and possibly the world). What would you expect the USOC and USA Swimming to do? They have millions and millions of dollars at stake here. NBC rode Phelps to its highest Olympic ratings in years, which equates to hundreds of millions of dollars for the entire Olympic family. I will concede that this suspension is nothing but grandstanding by USA Swimming/USOC, but their financial situation with sponsors doesn't allow them to just sweep it under the rug.

Shawn
TORRE Consulting Services, LLC
http://www.TORREcs.com

Quote Reply
Re: Okay, here's the Phelps discussion thread [ShawnF] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
What kind of backlash would you expect against USA Swimming/USOC if they did NOT suspend Phelps?

Bringing up his financial sponsors is a key point here - they have 'more to lose' directly by their athlete being caught doing something 'unsavory'. And yet only one of Phelps' sponsors (Kellogg's, a company with very direct and strong links to wacky christian fundamentalists) chose to revoke sponsorship. The others collectively gave it the ol' shoulder shrug and continued on status quo.

So I'm just not getting exactly what the USOC brass was afraid of. Granted, I'm not intimately familiar with how their 'business model' works, but I'd be surprised if there were any real threat to them out of Phelps getting caught puffing a bong.
Quote Reply
Re: Okay, here's the Phelps discussion thread [ShawnF] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"What would you expect the USOC and USA Swimming to do? They have millions and millions of dollars at stake here."

you have to remember, i'm a process guy. i'm as consistent as the tides about this. process is my religion. you're arguing consequences. when you do, processes become expendable. when you argue consequences, you believe in nothing. you stand for nothing. the minute consequences become the determiner, the athlete (or the citizen) knows he's got nothing he can rely upon. you don't live under a set of laws anymore, but of whims.


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Okay, here's the Phelps discussion thread [gbot] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I wish I could talk more about the Kellogg's deal and how I *think* it all went down but I can't.

I guess I didn't make my point clear in my earlier post. I'm not exactly defending what the USOC/USA Swimming are doing because the Phelps suspension is basically worthless. However, the USOC/USA Swimming needs to be able to tell their sponsors and potential sponsors that they are doing everything they can to protect the Olympic brand/image, and, thus protecting their sponsors.

Shawn
TORRE Consulting Services, LLC
http://www.TORREcs.com

Last edited by: ShawnF: Feb 11, 09 16:35
Quote Reply
Re: Okay, here's the Phelps discussion thread [ShawnF] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Isn't basketball an Olympic sport with a lot of NBA players participating? Should be interesting to see what would happen if a picture of an NBA player showed up smoking pot...

-Darrell


Quote Reply
Re: Okay, here's the Phelps discussion thread [Darrell] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The USOC probably wouldn't say anything knowing the public sees basketball players as NBA players not Olympians.

Shawn
TORRE Consulting Services, LLC
http://www.TORREcs.com

Quote Reply
Re: Okay, here's the Phelps discussion thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
"What would you expect the USOC and USA Swimming to do? They have millions and millions of dollars at stake here."

you have to remember, i'm a process guy. i'm as consistent as the tides about this. process is my religion. you're arguing consequences. when you do, processes become expendable. when you argue consequences, you believe in nothing. you stand for nothing. the minute consequences become the determiner, the athlete (or the citizen) knows he's got nothing he can rely upon. you don't live under a set of laws anymore, but of whims.

Hmm, but aren't the consequences the metric by which you judge (at least partially) the merits of a particular process? After all, you establish a process to produce a set of results. Without those results, the process itself loses meaning. Looked at another way, another name for arguing for process in a vacuum is "Nuremburg Defense". :)

Oops, did I just kill the thread? ;)

EDIT: To say that, in spite of my satiric (and, admittedly, tactless) response, I do agree that the subversion of process in this case (esp. if motivated by selfish reasons) is repugnant. But my point is still valid: You do have to assess the quality of the consequences of a particular process, at least in part, to assess the merit of the process itself. And perhaps you're also partly reacting to what might appear to be a widening of the USOC's circle of "intended consequences" to include behavioral stipulations for Olympic athletes.

cramer
Last edited by: cramer: Feb 11, 09 16:50
Quote Reply
Re: Okay, here's the Phelps discussion thread [Darrell] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I guess I understand - they have to nip this stuff in the bud, right? This time it was just pot - imagine what might happen if an Olympic athlete actually got busted using some other drug, maybe one that enhanced their performance?

Oh wait...
Quote Reply
Re: Okay, here's the Phelps discussion thread [Darrell] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Let's not bring up the joke that is having NBA players in the Olympics. It all starts with them not being in the WADA drug-testing pool like every other player in the World, which provides an unfair advantage to the US.

-

The Triathlon Squad

Like us on Facebook!!!
Quote Reply
Re: Okay, here's the Phelps discussion thread [Paulo Sousa] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
It just seems like a double standard since NBA players don't have to submit to WADA and the pot smoking issue when all of them are Olympians. I agree that NBA players shouldn't be allowed in the Olympics and that it should go back to amateurs, even with ice hockey and baseball.

-Darrell


Quote Reply
Re: Okay, here's the Phelps discussion thread [cramer] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"Hmm, but aren't the consequences the metric by which you judge (at least partially) the merits of a particular process?"

to a degree, yes. but then you change the process, you don't abandon the concept of process. you are governed by laws, not be expediency. but if the laws aren't working, you don't abandon the rule of law. you amend the law.

i think the USOC behaved expediently, that is, it sacrificed one of its star athletes in order for it to achieve an expedient solution. but i don't see where it has the moral right to do so, and i very seriously question whether it has the right under its own legal framework to do so, that is, it might say that it does, but i question whether phelps would've had to live under this suspension had he challenged it. but the suspension was light enough that it was better for phelps to go along with it than to fight it. the suspension was perfectly calibrated in that sense.

keep your eye on the ball. phelps was guilty of... what? let me ask you this. let's say michael phelps was hauled away for blocking the entrance of an abortion clinic, even after a judge slapped him with an order to stay 500 feet away from it. would he have been suspended from competition?


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman
Quote Reply
Re: Okay, here's the Phelps discussion thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I think you wrote a very good article, and asked some good questions, particularly your post(s) above. I'm looking at this from a different angle. I'm a certified Medical Review Officer, which basically means I am the guy who has to review drug tests, sign off on whether an analytical finding constitutes a positive or negative test, etc. I also help set up programs for companies / teams etc.

One of the great debates in this (sometimes very interesting) line of work has been whether or not employers have the right to monitor employees in their off time through drug testing. (Or rather, they have the right, but some would ask should they have it? Americans seem to accept it, but prospective employees from other countries are often shocked by this.) There are few people who argue against testing for commercial drivers, doctors, police officers, and the like. However, what about people who do not work in safety-sensitive occupations? My friend is a graphic designer, and her employer has the right to test her, too.

Generally speaking, the law has fallen on the side of the employer, meaning "If you don't like our drug testing policy, you can freely choose not to work here." However, is an athlete an employee of a governing body if they receive financial support? In my line of work, some say yes. With that in mind, what I find a little disturbing is that there is no adverse analytical finding here. Just a suspicious photograph and an admission of unseemly behavior (but not an admission of drug use). If those rules were permitted in the rest of the employment world, anyone's boss could go on Facebook, find a sketchy college picture of an employee, and then dismiss that person.

A time is coming where companies interested in sponsoring athletes will test them in the same way they test their other employees, meaning unannounced, random tests without regard to time or season. I wonder if athletes, given the current trend towards more testing for performance enhancing drugs, will be accepting of this? At what point does this constant monitoring become unreasonably intrusive? (The already have to log their exact position at all times so that they can always be found for PED tests, and face serious sanctions if they deviate from their stated plans).

Given the Phelps precedent, will athletes now regularly face sanctions for any behavior that is deemed unseemly by a sporting organization assuming the mantle of morality? So now they have to consider the PED drug police, the employer drug police, and everyone with a cellphone. What if Phelps had been filmed doing a keg-stand? Will that become a sanctionable offense?

Just some random thoughts,

Phil

Dr. Philip Skiba
Scientific Training for Endurance Athletes now available on Amazon!
Last edited by: Philbert: Feb 11, 09 17:17
Quote Reply
Re: Okay, here's the Phelps discussion thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Dan, I read your aritcle when you posted it. Honestly, I was having a hard time understanding what you where getting at. Now because the discussion was next to zero, you create your own thread? It seems like you have a real woody going for the USOC.

The guy is suspended for what 3 to 6 months. Did he even plan on competing? This is basicallly been his off time until he starts his 3 year ramp up till London in 2012. Seems like a total non-issue slap on the wrist to me. The guys making freaking millions, I really don't have any simpathy for him. I will still be cheering for him, but no simpathy as far as the suspension goes. It's like he gets 2 months off every 4 years, in which time he gets wasted and smokes or gets a DUI. I don't condon his behavior, but can almost understand it (ie. only getting to let lose once every 4 years).
Quote Reply
Re: Okay, here's the Phelps discussion thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
"you have to remember, i'm a process guy. i'm as consistent as the tides about this. process is my religion. you're arguing consequences. when you do, processes become expendable. when you argue consequences, you believe in nothing. you stand for nothing. the minute consequences become the determiner, the athlete (or the citizen) knows he's got nothing he can rely upon. you don't live under a set of laws anymore, but of whims."

Couldn't have written it much better, Dan. Consequences without processes leans to the Draconian.
Quote Reply
Re: Okay, here's the Phelps discussion thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
You know that we live in a country where one can get thrown into jail by the accusations of a single man (preferably from law-enforcement), as long as they can draw the jury to their side, right?

So you are kind of not really credible, when you cite due legal process, because even in the legally most clear-cut cases, there is no process, just precedences.

USAT swimming and USOC are just flying by the seats of their pants trying to limit the damage they are/were not prepared for.
They deserve it, building him up to nearly god-like status and now realizing that he is just another kid...

I get a good laugh out of them scrambling to limit the damage.

___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus
Quote Reply
Re: Okay, here's the Phelps discussion thread [Slowman] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
given the USOC's "new" position regarding Phelp's out of season, recreational use of marijuana, does this mean snowboarding as an Olympic sport is dead?
Quote Reply

Prev Next