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RunTraining1 - Training for the time limited triathlete
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RunTraining1 - Training for the time limited triathlete

I've been putting a lot of thought into this topic over the last year. A couple of discussions, a little bit of research, a little more experience, and one kick ass training session with a world class athlete who trains on the low volume (relatively) aproach has brought me to a few conclusions (or rather I should say *early* conclusions). I don't pretend to be an expert on this, but I do like to throw it out there and hope to open a discussion on the issue.

To begin with, I want to once again discuss the high volume approach with regard to the "runner" who is not limited by time. Much research has been done to show that virtually all of the adapatations that come from slower training (conversational pace....but not lollygagging) also occur at higher paced training. The higher paced training also comes with the added benefits of creating the high end "speed" (it's not really speed....but will use the term for now) that will be needed during a race. Anyone who has ever hit the track for some very intense sessions has probably noticed amazing results within just a few weeks.

American coaches in the 80s shifted the emphasis from the high mileage routines that were popular in the 70s to the "less is more and faster is FASTER" approach. The results were, unfortunately, a decade of considerably slower runners. In the late 90s and on into the new century the pendulum swung back toward a big volume apporach and, though we can't say for certain what causes the correlation, runners got faster again.

What I think it comes down to, really, is efficiency in training. It's all about tradeoffs. 35 miles a week of high intensity (or...say...4 hours/wk) might get you more improvement per mile, and it will certainly get you more improvement versus 35 slow miles a week, but your other option might be 70 miles a week of lower intensity training. The person who does that year round with *some* high intensity training included before their race will often beat the 35 mile a week guy (assuming similar talent), especially given many years of this approach.

Now what TRIATHLETE runs 70 miles a week!?

Well, there are many of the better runners who will throw in a 70 mpw block here and there during the cold months or to train for a marathon, but I don't think you'll find too many that can fit that into a well balanced tri program.

**So this means to keep the mileage short and ramp up the intensity, right?**

Well.......yes.....but no.

First of all, keep in mind that successful runners typically hit three phases of run training: Base, transition, race. Typically when you are furthest out from your race, in your earliest phases of your training, you want to push the limits of how much running volume you can get in. This should be your first goal and should only be limited by one of two factors: 1) How much you can handle and 2) how much time you are willing to spend running. Given the choice between 4 miles hard, 6 miles sorta hard, or 8 miles easy (steady), you should opt for the 8 miles given the available time.

Now you don't want to do this forever. At some point you are going to sweet spot in your training where added volume isn't going to give you the benefits that more intensity will. Where is that sweet spot? Steve Scott ran 80 mpw to train for the mile. Dena Kastor ran over 120 mpw to medal in the olympic marathon. That's a lot of running, but I wouldn't expect most people to be able to handle 80 - 120 mpw WITH speed sessions. When I coached high school I had guys running around 45 mpw and girls at 30 - 35 mpw (~ 6 hours/wk each).

The other thing you need to keep in mind is that, though volume is very important, you don't want to run 100% zone 2 for 12 months a year.....not unless you only run IMs and haven't been able to finish one without walking yet. At some point your races are going to get closer and closer and you will need to add in some intensity to be ready to run at the high end. I've found that even experienced athletes can drop 2-3 minutes off of their 10K in a matter of months once they hit the intensity.

Anyway, I've been through this before....blah blah...lots of miles, add in tempo runs, finish off with 4-8 weeks of V02max intervals before the A race. But you aren't reading this thread for that "formula." You want to know what do do when you don't have the time to run lots of miles.

Before I said given the choice to run 4 or 8, you should pick 8 if its early in the season. Or, more realistically, given the choice bewtween 3 6 mile runs or 6 6 mile runs, you should pick 6. But not everyone is willing to do that.

OK, so now you've "budgeted" 3 runs a week into your life. The goals are still the same. Get as much mileage into those three runs as you can early in the season. Maybe one can be even as long as 15 or 20 miles. Maybe you can fit in a second 10-12 miler in. So lets say in two months you build up to 20 miles a week on 3 runs and simply don't have the time to do more.

Now what? LSD training is good, right?

Well....no. The *advantage* of LSD training is that you can do MORE of it. However, YOU can't do more. So now your choice is to add intensity. This is ok, and there are many ways to do it. In this respect I think your best bet really is to vary the types of running you do in each workout. Focus on tempo runs, long intervals with short recoveries, and hill sessions. Speed sessions on the track are ok as long as they are short and the recoveries are long.....and don't kill yourself. You can also mix up your workouts and run a tempo run followed by some hills, or maybe a mile at 1 hour race pace followed by a hard 400, jog, repeat.

The "world class" athlete I spoke with recently did a lot of this type of training. He may only get in three sessions a week, one being a 30 minute tempo run followed by 4x4 minute hills, one would be a brisk 8 miler over very hilly cross country terain, and one might be a random fartlek run where he'd vary the pace during the run....a fast sprint here, 10 minutes hard there, etc. The real key is that he always kept it under control.

This type of training is perfectly ok as long as you remember give yourself about 4 - 8 weeks to ramp up the intensity (or iron specific workouts if doing a build for an IM), hit your goal race, and then RECOVER. Don't try to keep this intensity up over an entire summer. I think it was Dev who said, "Keep yourself in good shape year round, but build up to get ready for your goal race as it gets closer."

Where I see a lot of triathletes get themselves in trouble is that they see the great results they get from their speed sessions so they start hammering them week in and week out for 9 months straight. It's as if they plan their training around the speed sessions. They start by saying, "I'll hit the track on Tuesday and Friday and then see where else I can fit a run into the schedule." Instead they should say, "Let me focus on building my mileage and long run until I run out of time, THEN add in a variety of higher paced workouts (1st priority is 1 hour race paced LT workouts) to prepare me for my race season coming up, and THEN I'll add in the heavy track sessions...but for only a short time."

Anyway, hope this helps some. As always, feel free to discuss.


-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
Last edited by: BarryP: Jan 31, 07 16:27
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Re: RunTraining1 - Training for the time limited triathlete [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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In my opinion, the best route to improve running for the time constrained triathlete (which is everyone, including the pros, because everyone would like more time) is to do your bike training on PowerCranks and then cycle more and run less.

Everything is a trade-off but essentially everyone who gets on PC's sees running improvement despite very limited or, even, zero running (because of injury).

Your thoughts may be relevant to those who cannot afford or don't believe in the concept of PC's. But, IMHO, it is not the most efficient way for the time constrained triathlete to improve running performance.

Frank

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
Last edited by: Frank Day: Jan 31, 07 16:42
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Re: RunTraining1 - Training for the time limited triathlete [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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Oh shut up. Barry makes another 1000+ word essay on training and you reply with one line train on powercranks. Give me a break.

Grant

Grant
----------------------------------------------------
Proudly sponsored by Desoto Sports
Please Support CAF every little bit helps http://raceforareason.kintera.org/grantreuter
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Re: RunTraining1 - Training for the time limited triathlete [cyclonehockey21] [ In reply to ]
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Well, at least he didn't disappoint!

Frank most definitely catches all the running threads though : )

Barry - I think you need to order and use a set :) I've waffled back and forth so much about PCs, I think I'll just keep running. Frank, if you send me a set and I get faster - I'll post as much as you on ST about them, until then ...

____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD
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Re: RunTraining1 - Training for the time limited triathlete [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Good post as usual. I have an experiment running with a few athletes something similair so well see how it goes.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

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Re: RunTraining1 - Training for the time limited triathlete [rroof] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Well, at least he didn't disappoint!

Frank most definitely catches all the running threads though : )

Barry - I think you need to order and use a set :) I've waffled back and forth so much about PCs, I think I'll just keep running. Frank, if you send me a set and I get faster - I'll post as much as you on ST about them, until then ...

I'll just stay with the anecdotal evidence of the reports of the triathletes who report to us combined with the fact that there are numerous track and field teams (who have coaches, I presume, who know a thing or two about running - BTW, two of the coaches using them are former world record holders - one in the sprints and one in the marathon) who are using them to augment running training. Plus there the fact that there are two studies just underway that are looking at the running benefits, one in triathletes (it will be looking at both running and cycling benefits) and the other in Div I XC runners. We will see what those show, should have preliminary results in a few months I expect.

Barry put forth his views as to how to best train running with limited time. Surely the fact he put it on ST meant he expected some alternative views might be posted. Is there a rule here that I can't post about the area of my greatest expertise?

Anyhow, there are lots of ST'ers here who use PC's. I would invite any of them who use them, who have not seen running benefit, to post here. I would be surprised if there were more than 2 or 3.

Those who are interested in improving running can see my association with PowerCranks and judge for themselves as to whether they might want to try them. I suspect that the evidence the PowerCranks will improve running in the triathlete with limited time is just as substantial as the evidence that the program Barry put forth has that it will improve running equivalently, let alone at all.

Frank

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: RunTraining1 - Training for the time limited triathlete [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Great post especially for someone like me who is trying to rebuild their running discipline after having an injury prone year last year. Definitely food for though.

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http://trainingoferic.blogspot.com/
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Re: RunTraining1 - Training for the time limited triathlete [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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Seriously, give BarryP a set of PC's and see how he likes them.

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http://trainingoferic.blogspot.com/
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Re: RunTraining1 - Training for the time limited triathlete [cyclonehockey21] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]Oh shut up. Barry makes another 1000+ word essay on training and you reply with one line train on powercranks. Give me a break.

Grant[/reply]

agreed.
frank, i wish your product luck, but i find your habit of making so many threads into threads about your product to be, well, obnoxious.

-charles
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Re: RunTraining1 - Training for the time limited triathlete [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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Frank,

We'll see how my PC training/minimal run training fares in IMCDA....recovering from plantar fasciitis.

Didn't you say Ryan Hall used them to rehab an injury? And didn't he just crush the 1/2 marathon american record in 59:xx? Meb is back in town (I forgot to ask if he's ever used them but I haven't seen Ryan or his wife in a few weeks).

Dave
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Re: RunTraining1 - Training for the time limited triathlete [erichollins] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]
Seriously, give BarryP a set of PC's and see how he likes them.[/reply]

We don't do that anymore. Those who are not interested will not give them a look. So, we don't force the cranks on anyone. Those who use them do so because they chose too. And, we do have special pricing for coaches and we still offer them the 90 day moneyback guarantee. If he wants to try them he can contact us.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: RunTraining1 - Training for the time limited triathlete [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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Frank, I have a question. Those Powercranks are supposed to be drank or rubbed on our skin?
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Re: RunTraining1 - Training for the time limited triathlete [daveinmammoth] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]
Frank,

We'll see how my PC training/minimal run training fares in IMCDA....recovering from plantar fasciitis.

Didn't you say Ryan Hall used them to rehab an injury? And didn't he just crush the 1/2 marathon american record in 59:xx? Meb is back in town (I forgot to ask if he's ever used them but I haven't seen Ryan or his wife in a few weeks).

Dave[/reply]

I don't know if Ryan Hall has ever used them (I doubt it but we have been pleasntly surprised before) although he may in the future as he is beginning training with Meb and I understand he has used them. The Ryan I think you are referring too is Ryan Shea, who was the initial Team Running USA athlete Coach Vigil got the PC bike for to help him rehab from injury.

Don't be surprised if you set a PR at IMCDA. Happens to lots of PC'ers despite almost no running. Good luck.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: RunTraining1 - Training for the time limited triathlete [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]
Frank, I have a question. Those Powercranks are supposed to be drank or rubbed on our skin?[/reply]

Drinking or rubbing on the skin isn't in our list of recommended uses for best benefit but once you have given us your money and they leave our hands you can use them however you feel is best for you. :-)

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: RunTraining1 - Training for the time limited triathlete [Frank Day] [ In reply to ]
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My hip flexors are always the first muscle to give out when I run, then it makes my knee flare up. Single leg cycling drills also tax my flexors. I can barely kick in the pool, again the flexors. I can see where PCs would help with that, but I'm flinching about buying a new bike for $1500. $600 just for cranks - can't cross that line mentally.


Re: run training for the time limited, Mike Ricci had an article in the usat newsletter last year that addressed this.

In a nutshell:

1. a speed session
2. a long run
3. a tempo effort

You're targeting all the systems once per week, and 3 sessions a week makes recovery easy & keeps everything mentally fresh.
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Re: RunTraining1 - Training for the time limited triathlete [Frank Black] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think many people can hit those three workouts every week and still do quality bike workouts and swim workouts.

Pick two of those--and when I have to pick I choose the long run and the tempo/threshold type of workout.

I do a lot of Fartlek's in my training with work intervals varying b/n 3 and 8 minutes depending on the time of year.

I like throwing a progression into the Long Run on some weeks during the build phase as well.
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Re: RunTraining1 - Training for the time limited triathlete [cdanrun] [ In reply to ]
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I don't think many people can hit those three workouts every week and still do quality bike workouts and swim workouts.

Pick two of those--and when I have to pick I choose the long run and the tempo/threshold type of workout.

I do a lot of Fartlek's in my training with work intervals varying b/n 3 and 8 minutes depending on the time of year.

I like throwing a progression into the Long Run on some weeks during the build phase as well.
____________________________________

That sounds like a great plan. I think using a fartlek session to get your speed in is exactly what most triathletes could use instead of pounding them out on the track. When doing a fartlek (which I like to define as "random intervals in an unmeasured environement") you tend to listen to your body more instead of trying to hit goal times for goal distances (ie...800 meters in 2:40). In otherwords, YOU dictate how to run the workout rather than having the workout dictate how you run.

In addition, the fartlek can be done at a park or on trails which can help stave off injuries.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: RunTraining1 - Training for the time limited triathlete [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry, awesome post as usual.........................i been printing them and making a Barry book!

thanks again for great info.

tfun~
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Re: RunTraining1 - Training for the time limited triathlete [Frank Black] [ In reply to ]
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Re: run training for the time limited, Mike Ricci had an article in the usat newsletter last year that addressed this.

In a nutshell:

1. a speed session
2. a long run
3. a tempo effort

You're targeting all the systems once per week, and 3 sessions a week makes recovery easy & keeps everything mentally fresh.
________________________

If memory serves me correctly, I typically agree with Mike.

The only addition that I would make to this list is I would say "1. speed, hills, OR fartlek" and I would urge caution on the intensity of the speed sessions if you are more than 8 weeks away from your race.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: RunTraining1 - Training for the time limited triathlete [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry - something i've been wondering about. I was looking at one book on running, that said with marathon training, your long run should be less than half of your weekly mileage, and (IIRC) preferably around 1/3 of your weekly mileage.
Is that somethign that's common advice? and how does it fit in with cross-training? I've got no hope of doing that - my long runs have gotten to around 14 miles but i'm lucky if i get more than 10 in during the rest of the week. So far so good, but i'm wondering how it plays out when the long runs get into the 18-20 area.

i was pleased to see that the 'world class athlete' you ran with (was it Lance?! was it?! :-) ) is doing what i've been trying to do - including a tempo run and a trail run. Although the trails around valley green are pretty icy this week...


-charles
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Re: RunTraining1 - Training for the time limited triathlete [Frank Black] [ In reply to ]
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I would guess what if your long runs knock you out for a couple days your long runs are too fast.

Grant

Grant
----------------------------------------------------
Proudly sponsored by Desoto Sports
Please Support CAF every little bit helps http://raceforareason.kintera.org/grantreuter
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Re: RunTraining1 - Training for the time limited triathlete [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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How about combining long runs and tempo? I have done that with success (half marathon PR, from 85 to 81 min.) Something like: 10 miles total long run with miles 7,8 & 9 at tempo. Now that tempo won't be quite as brisk as a single 5-mile tempo (6:20+ instead of 6:10- for me) but I think it works great ... That plus a hills (or track or fartlek) session (intervals) and a brick should be plenty for people with a decent running base.
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Re: RunTraining1 - Training for the time limited triathlete [TBinMT] [ In reply to ]
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A long run is a run of at least 1 1/2 at a pace of about 1:00 minute per mile slower than your marathon pace.

That's a good workout--but not a long run.
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Re: RunTraining1 - Training for the time limited triathlete [Frank Black] [ In reply to ]
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Long runs slay me -2 days recovery needed
__________________________

Alberto Salazar once said that your #1 goal is total weekly mileage. If your long run intereferes with that, then it is either too long or too fast.

It's something to think about if it really takes you two days to recover. Sometimes just cutting back one or two miles will make all the difference. Another thing to consider is to do your "2 days to recover" long runs every other week and focus on more runs on the alternating weeks.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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