Pre running - road biker.

1st year - 3 x 30 minutes on treadmill, 10:00/mile pace, would occasionally kick it up to 7:00/m or 8:00/m.

2nd year - 5 x 25 minutes, easy, unknown pace (just a loop around the 'hood for fitness, no other training due to other commitments).

3rd year - this year, started running every day, sometimes twice a day. Consistently was hitting 6 x 45min. Running is/was done with a baby jogger.

I got on the treadmill yesterday and 10:00/mile was killing me. This is no good!

Should I just keep bumping up the speed on the treadmill over the winter? I'm thinking maybe every 6 weeks bump it up .5mph?

NOTE: I have no formal training or coaching references whatsoever, so you get what you pay for.

However, I am going to chime in and say that it is my understanding that certain muscle types are not stimulated at lower intensities.

If you look at a plan that Daniels suggests the initial phase where all runs are easy is intended to get one back into the routine of running on a regular basis after a several week lay-off. After two or three weeks you immediately move into some types of "Quality" work.

So keep doing your 10 min/mile runs, but add some 30 sec strides once in a while. Start with a couple, work your way up to 10-12. There are other low-stress types of ways to add in some intensity also.

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Note to self: increase training load.

I'll reiterate that false statement. I was in the one of the WORST shapes of my life coming out of Ranger school. Weighed nothing, didn't eat/sleep well. Basically more mentally challenging than anything - and, as has been mentioned, these people are generally much younger and have been "pre-screened" so to speak. I punish my body a whole lot more for marathon and/or IM training.

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Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

I'll reiterate that false statement. I was in the one of the WORST shapes of my life coming out of Ranger school. Weighed nothing, didn't eat/sleep well. Basically more mentally challenging than anything - and, as has been mentioned, these people are generally much younger and have been "pre-screened" so to speak. I punish my body a whole lot more for marathon and/or IM training.
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He he he. It sure is nice when someone who actualy knows what they are talking about chimes in ; ^ )

Thanks.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

If you are feeling sluggish during your runs you may want to back off on the mileage a bit. It sounds like you are doing alot more than in previous years.

If you are feeling fresh but still running slow, add in the two following workouts once a week.

1) a 20 minute tempo run. This will be "comfortably hard." It will probably be 8 to 9 minutes a mile on the tread mill. Don't race it. You should feel like you could do the workout twice.

2) 6x40 seconds with 1 minute jogs in between. These will be very fast, but not sprinting. You may respond well to these since, if I remember correctly, you come from an anaerobic sport background.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

 

I'll give them a shot. I'm hoping that maybe I just have some residual fatigue built up or something and yesterday was a fluke.

Btw, I thought it was definitely one of the better posts on this forum. It reminded me of an e-mail exchange I had with Chris Hauth about his coaching philosophy -- I felt it applied the same type of principles he applies to his overall IM training program. Just makes a lot of sense to me...

Thanks, Chris

Barry,

Regarding feeling "sluggish" on the run, how do you explain this:

- I've been running exclusively the last 5 weeks.

- My weekly running volume of exclusive easy run has been: 55-56-65-75-80 km

- The week I've felt better running has been last week.

- Average pace was also distinctively up last week (the week of more volume).

I know what I'm talking about. I spent 9 years in the Marine Corps. Infantry the entire time. 2/7. 1982-1991. Super squads, ANGLICO, ROK Ranger school, etc etc My brother was a Ranger too. He was in the 82nd ABN. I got him invited to The USMC Mountain Warfare Training Center in Bridgeport, CA. We spent 4 weeks at the Mountain Leaders Course together. We both agreed that it was the ass kicking of a lifetime. If there are a few guys on this forum who got their asses kicked a little too hard (I didn’t see any whining from former Marines….Hmmmmm?) that’s too bad……it’s actually good…..it’s just too bad they don’t know what is good for them. For the vast majority of Marines, Rangers, Seals and SF guys, this training is the transformation of a lifetime. A few might think they’re in the worse shape of their lives after the initial training, No shit!! Who is ready to race an Ironman the day after racing an Ironman? It’s the long term development that matters. I am a bad MF’R today because of the cumulative effect of all that I did in the Marines.

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

Just sent you a PM Bro :-)

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**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**

LOL! That sounds exactly like a reply I would expect from a Marine. I hope you don't tell your "war stories" over and over while drunk as well :) The training war stories are even better still :0

I don't keep my coin with me anymore, so I'll buy your drink if you spin yours down on the bar and I'm there.

Thank you for not disappointing!

Semper Fi ...

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____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

I think you are getting in shape ( I also think you measure in km to feel like you are training harder than you actualy are ; ^ )

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

BarryP - so as i sit here effing sore from the pounding i gave myself yesterday in chicago and i have to say i needed more running volume! The 3-4 runs per week got me the speed but boy did i suffer in that last 10k!

the race went like this:
-1:27:x half
-2:14:4 20m
-explosion of hip (reason why i was keeping my run volume down) and quad overload!
-3:05:05 finish. (6 or 7minute loss over final 10k!)

don't get me wrong - i am well pleased with the result - a PR by 5 and change (NYC 2000) but what might it have been had i had to endurance to maintain pace as i have in the past? If I choose to race an open marathon again i will add at least another 10 miles to my core week mileage and probably another 15mins or so to my longest run - it's just too damn painful forcing that last 2 miles into a ragin headwind!

PS putting on 5lbs in the last month probably didn't help either!

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www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)

I thought I just read in my running magazine that for every pound one puts it, it puts like 5 lbs of pressure on the knees, and 26 lbs on the feet. What ever the numbers where, it sure got my eyes big. Answers why the top runners seem to be so thin.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

that's an interesting thought...you know i did opt for lightweight trainers this time over running flats and my feet were still killing me all last night after the race!

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www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)

How long were your long runs and how many did you do? (mileage and time).

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

in reverse chronological order by week (last one 2 weeks before race):

• 13 - 1:40;
• 18 - 2:30;
• 18 - 2:30;
• (olympic tri - no long run);
• 14 - 1:47;
• 17.5 - 2:25;
• 13.1 (1:40 - half ironman).

Prior to that 3 or 4 runs > 10-15 miles to get in half iron shape.

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www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)

in reverse chronological order by week (last one 2 weeks before race):

• 13 - 1:40;
• 18 - 2:30;
• 18 - 2:30;
• (olympic tri - no long run);
• 14 - 1:47;
• 17.5 - 2:25;
• 13.1 (1:40 - half ironman).

Prior to that 3 or 4 runs > 10-15 miles to get in half iron shape.
______________________________________________________________________

That may have been the best you could do given your level of fitness. Typicaly it takes a long time to prepare the body to NOT break down in the last 6 miles of the marathon. Three 2 1/2 hour runs is pleanty if you are looking to "run" a marathon. However, if you want to "race" it, you're a little behind in the training.

My former college coach recently said, "It's not how far your longest run is that matters. It's the number of 20+ milers you get in."

For some people, it takes everything they have just to finish ONE 20 miler. For them, they want to build up to that distance just a few weeks before their marathon. However, as they get better over the years, the eventual goal should be to run a 20+ miler every other week for a few months.

So, my point is, for your next marathon, definitely run more and more often, but also try to get into long run shape a little sooner and run them for a few more weeks.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

My former college coach recently said, "It's not how far your longest run is that matters. It's the number of 20+ milers you get in."

That sounds very similar to a maxim often repeated bu RWUK Coaching Editor Bruce Tulloh, which was that if your 5 longest runs add up to 100 miles, the distance aspect of the marathon should present no problems.

Of course, he did tend to think in terms of distance and to forget somewhat the variable nature of the RW readership...

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Stuff I like:
PBscience Triathlon Coaching and Lab Testing

It's always up to the reader to figure out how it applies to themselves. ie..I don't the the OP.....wait........*I'm* the OP........I mean, the guy with the question 3 posts back......I don't think HE should shoot for five 20 milers. Instead I think he should shot for five runs of 18 miles or longer with 14 milers on the in between weeks.

That's the hardest part about answering running questions. The audience IS variable......much like cookie cutter training plans are. That's why I try my best to both "educate" people about running AND "educate" myself (by reading others' posts) about triathlon. From there, hopefuly informed decisions can be made.

One of my first posts on this board was about how disapointed I was about triathlon books. They seem to jump right to giving you a training schedule without any real rhyme or reason behind what's in it.

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

thanks - i have definitely learned my lesson! i think i "lost respect" for the distance after a couple of ironmans and forgot just how much "racing" a marathon takes out of you.

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www.true-motion.com Triathlete Casual Wear since 2007
(Twitter/FB)

Agreed. Very often, when writing about training for marathons in particular, one finds oneself stuck between wanting to give the best advice (build up your running frequency, then volume, then long run, don't go from nothing to a marathon in less than 12 months) and giving advice based on the real world where people do try to race a marathon as their first race, do try to do it off no more than three runs a week, want to run 20s even when their race pace is 12min/mile etc etc. This was an annual battle at RWUK because there was a prevailing opinion that all runners were going to have to run 26.2 miles come race day, and so all should run 20-22 miles in training as preparation. (There was also the fact that the schedules always began in the January issue for a mid-April marathon, and always focused on a simultaneous mix of increasing long runs, tempo and speedwork, I could go on...)

So, to summarise, I don't think that he should do 5 20s in a row either, I think 10 weeks alternating 2.5hr runs and no longer than 2hr runs would probably do.

I think that much of what we do in training also depends on what resources are available. Many club runners in the UK will include 20s and even 22s in their pre spring marathon training simply because there are a number of pre London 20-mile races (Bramley, Thanet, a hilly 21 at Cranleigh) ON TOP OF a couple of 1/2s. IF I get into London this year I will certainly be using these 20s as alternatives for my long runs, but then my LSD pace is around 7:30/mile...

Here's my tentative plan (I'll flesh it out if I get a place):

STEP 1: rebuild frequency/volume until the week contains 5 x 60mins LSD
STEP 2: build aerobic conditioning with tempo running (mileage remains constant, % FS increases)
STEP 3: build race specific durability/nutrition with a long run protocol (FS mileage reains constant, long run increases volume)
STEP 4: address race specific fitness with a couple of decent half-marathons and some hilly tempo runs
STEP 5: taper and race

What do you think?

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Stuff I like:
PBscience Triathlon Coaching and Lab Testing

Sounds like gold!

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-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485

"Barry, awesome post. I don't know how many relatively beginner runners I have had to take off intervals etc and told to run more aerobically. At first people have lots of resistance, but then they see the gains."

"Which is why for most triathletes, I encourage them to do most of their intensity work (in race season) on the swim and bike and just run steady. When you throw in tri sports and then try to hammer run intervals, it just complicates matters more. For most of us (especially the relatively pedestrian Ironman paces), high speed track work is just icing on the cake."


Paul - I think this advice could also apply to an aging triathlete as well. As a 52 year old triathlete that's pretty beat up, I can't do big mileage anymore - or hard interval training. Every run I do could be my last, so my strategy is to do very high frequency - pretty much every day - but pretty short - usually around 4 miles. I do plenty of mileage AND intensity in the pool and on the bike.

I wonder how many older triathletes give up on the sport because their knees can't handle long runs and intervals, when in fact a little jogging everyday has kept me pretty competitive.

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Geoff from Indy
http://www.tlcendurance.com