As I understand it, the 6.7 is nearly as aero as the 808 at a lighter weight. That would be my choice. The 404FC/CC has a great carbon clincher rim, maybe better than Enve's - but for a race wheelset you really don't want to use the brakes anymore than absolutely necessary, so as long as they aren't going to be training wheels as well I wouldn't worry overmuch about that. Get some good brake pads that you feel comfortable with and you should be fine.

I own a set of Enve 3.4s and Zipp 404 Firecrests. I'd rate the Enve's over the Zipps. I'm not a fan of Zipp's hubs (I've had two wheels go back for hub shells that cracked and allowed spokes to come loose ... or out completely). The Enves you can have built with whatever hubs you want, but with the basic DT Swiss 240s you can't really go wrong. They're quite nice hubs. I think the Enve 3.4s are more comparable to the Zipp 404s than the 6.7s would be.

But my real answer to your question is neither. I have a set of Bontrager Aeolus D3 7s (the new full carbon clincher versions of the Aeolus wheels). I got these in early Fall and I've ridden and raced a lot of miles on them. WOW!!! They really seem to be amazing wheels. I won't go into any specifics because I see that Jackmott is back and, therefore, observations from actual personal experience will be pounced upon and that shit makes me crazy. I can tell you that I had a really great Fall season and I attribute a fair bit of it to the Aeolus D3 7s. Regardless of the tires I've run on them (and I've run Conti GP4000s, Vittoria Open Corsa EVO CX and Bonty R4 Aeros), the ride quality of the wheels just seems to be on another level ... like going from my Honda Element that I drive daily, to the BMW 5 Series I got on a free upgrade at Avis last week. Whoa ... night and day! Check them out for yourself. Actually the Bonty D3 5s are probably the version that's most comparable to Zipp 404s. I'd take my D3 7s over the Enve 6.7s, but that's probably a close call. I'm extrapolating what I've noticed about the ride experience of the 3.4s to the 6.7s.

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Stay aero my friends.

I have a large quiver of wheels as well (Hed Jets, Renn, Zipps, Enve) for various types of racing. I would rate the Enve wheels as best for sure (comparing apples to apples that is - i.e. no tubular vs. clincher vs. newer fat rim shape). They are every bit as aero, almost always the lightest, and most definitely the most durable. The trifecta. But alas, they are often the most expensive as well :(

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____________________________________
Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

unfortunately, this VN test didn't include 404s, but the Enve's get good marks all around. As do the Bonty 5s.

http://velonews.competitor.com/...uly-results-page.jpg

Why would you rate the 404FC Clincher over the Enve 6.7 clincher when right before you said the 6.7 is almost as aero as the 808? A number of the reviews (linked below) I've read say the ENVE brake surface is nearly equal to an aluminum counterpart...

http://blog.artscyclery.com/...bon-clincher-review/

http://glorycycles.blogspot.com/...e-ses-67-review.html

http://www.bikeradar.com/...67-wheelset-11-45144

I was having the exact same debate recently and opted for the Enve wheels because of the 5 year warranty and aero benefits over the 404FC. Had they made a 8.9 clincher, that would have been my first choice.

Hey, some personal experience is great - like 2 cracked hubs, as long as they still use those hubs, perfectly valid experience to share.

As to the great fall season being due to the wheels, well I had a great fall season on HED Jets ;)


To the OP - the zipps will probably be more stable in nasty crosswinds, though at that depth most of us wouldn't be bothered by either wheel at all.

I would refer to various public wind tunnel tests to take a guess at which is more aero.

and then I would get HED Jet's because I like metal brake tracks ;)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Thanks for the entirely predictable response.

I have many sets of Hed Jets, too. Not worthy of mention in the same discussion with the Bonty wheels, IMHO. But what do I know. I only have thousands of miles on each. Agree about metal brake tracks ... If I'm riding a road bike on a technical descent or in a crit. On a typical TT or Tri course, I can't see where it's any issue at all.

It usually isn't an issue on a typical TT course until it is. Car pulls in front of you, rain, etc. That said, the new generation of carbon rims have better braking surfaces. A test ride is a good way to judge the braking quality for yourself.

I'm sorry that my predictable insistence up careful measurement and observation as way of knowing things is annoying to you. I can assure you that your insistence on anecdote as a way of knowing is equally annoying to me, if it makes you feel any better.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

I can assure you that your insistence on anecdote as a way of knowing is equally annoying to me, if it makes you feel any better.

I read all the same things you read. I embrace a lot of it. I take all of it with a grain of salt and recognize where limitations exist. Unlike you, I don't discount the experience of the experienced.

I wonder why enve makes an 8.9 tubular, but not an 8.9 clincher?

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I'm biased, but +1 for Enve! I love the 3.4's I'm riding (DT Swiss 240 hubs). Would ride them front and back all the time, but I don't have a powertap on the Enve wheelset so I have a rear training wheel I use instead.

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Jason Pedersen
RunPd.com - Running as fast I can since '93
@jasonpedersen

I believe the tubulars came first and they've been releasing the clinchers a size at a time with the 8.9s yet to come.

Within your consideration I'd like to offer three other aspects of consideration..
1) Enve has a 5 year warranty and Zipp is 2 year.
2) Enve is 100% made in the USA (Ogden, Utah) and I think Zipp is too (Indiana or is some of their manufacturing over seas?)
3) There's an aspect of the Enve construction that adds strength, they mold in their spoke and valve holes rather than drilling 'em out. I was impressed with that when I toured the factory.

I've ridden a lot of wheel sets over the years. I can say that the all deep-dish wheels react to cross winds in a way that is different to a shallow, boxy rim - and to that end, the greater the profile of the rim the more likely you are going to get pushed around in cross winds (rider weight and bike handling skills are also a factor). I offer up this, which is considered rather common knowledge, because I only rode two sets of Enve's - the 6.7 and and the 8.9, I rode them both in rather sketchy conditions (windy day in canyon area) for about an hour each and what I noticed from the Enve wheels is that the movement of the bike was less than other wheels of equal depth and that it was predictable - therefore less dramatic and, after a short while, pretty much a non-issue.

I don't own a set of Enve's yet but I will soon and I'm excited to unload all my other wheels. I want to ride just one set of wheels full time (training and racing) and minimize the amount of gear I have laying about.

Ian

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Ian Murray
http://www.TriathlonTrainingSeries.com
I like the pursuit of mastery
Twitter - @TriCoachIan

Zipp....Enve....pssshhhh...May I suggest Karbon Speed to you? ---ok, bad joke.

I've never ridden the Zipp 404 FC CC, but I've owned a Hed Jet 6 SCT and currently a Zipp 808 FC CC.

The 808 is simply amazing. It's easy to handle in the wind (even at <140lbs), light, great braking, and clincher

LOL! That was actually funny (you just have to be in-the-know).

FWIW, I haven't tried Zipps, but I do have a Jet 9 C2 rear, a Jet 6 C2 front (but not SCT), and a Smart Enve 6 front. To be honest, can't really feel the difference between the front Jet 6 and Smart 6 front in terms of actual speed or crosswind stability (they're both quite easy to handle). So, in terms of aero (whether crosswind or actual full frontal), no scientific data here, but it's a wash.

Handling: the Enve feels stiffer, more solid. It's also lighter. Personally, I think the Jet 6, performance wise, doesn't give up anything on the Enve. Handling wise, the Enve is just a bit better for me. I was also able to get it handbuilt professionally, using [red!] Alchemy ELF hub and [white!] Sapim CX-Ray spokes.

I like the Enve's more. It's also a lot more expensive than Heds. I know this is a Zipp FC vs Enve Smart thread, but I can only c ompare Hed Jets vs Enve, so I hope this isn't too off topic.

As Bob mentioned, the 8.9 clinchers are coming, but production of the SES 3.4 and 6.7 clinchers was prioritized ahead of the 8.9's. In June this year I put some time on the only set of 8.9 clinchers available (wih DT Swiss 190 ceramic hubs) and I anticipate they'll be a VERY popular wheelset next year for both triathlete's and time trialists. Even with the relatively deep 85mm front rim, the handling characteristics are similar to that of the 6.7's.

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VALÄ’RE | YouTube

Haven't ridden the Enve but have the 404 and 808 CCs. The 404s are super user friendly and easy to ride in most any condition. Braking is predictable and overall the wheels are a great improvement over past models.

Ridden both and own the Zipp 404 FC CC and the 808 FC CC - no noticeable difference btw Enve and Zipp IMO....they are both phenomenal wheels (aero, stiff, fast, reliable/strong).

If your short list is Enve or Zipp it really does not matter which set you purchase...you will not experience the buyer's remorse you had with the KS purchase.

I've ridden mostly Zipp wheels in the past years and have always been impressed. The FC303 CC is an amazing training wheel. The FC808 CC and 404 are great wheels as well. Never ridden the Enves but I can give a huge thumbs up to the Zipp Carbon Clinchers. Aero, light, durable, great handling in crosswinds, durable as everyday training wheels, nothing not to like about them.

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Thank you ALL for the ton of information that has been shared.

It sounds like Zipp is the way to go if I wanted a wheel to race AND train on.

That said....at what speed does a 808 wheelset become effective and at what speed does the 404 FC become effective?

I have the 404 Clincher (non firecrest) and can feel a noticeable difference around 17 mph. I'm really curious how the new Firecrest 808's stack up to the non-firecrest 404's. They weigh within 60 grams of each other...

The faster you go the more aero helps, from a wattage standpoint, but at any speed aero helps. If you are looking for an everyday wheel I'd go with either a 303FC or a 404FC. The FC shape helps in winds, but deeper wheels will always be affected more so I wouldn't consider an 808 to be an everyday wheel.

If I was buying them for my riding I'd go with a the 303s, but just because I like fat tires for long rides on rough pavement and the occasional fire road. If you are going to use nothing bigger than a 23mm tire either should be fine.

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Styrrell

Thank you!

I am sure that is definitely true, but just to confuse you, an email exchange I had with Enve: the rep told me that I should use my Enve (I have a Smart 6 front; still waiting for a Smart 9 clincher rear) everyday. They gave it a 5 year warranty, and they believe it's one of the toughest wheels out there. They wanted me to use the hell out of it. So that's what I do (except I put on 700x25c tires for training).

And, because of Thomas Gerlach, I now use the Conti-Attack-Force combo strictly as racing tires.

I own a set of ENVE 6.7's and they are great. I ride them every day and have never once had a problem. I've been on them for 2 years now. ENVE actually expects you and prefers that you ride them for training and not just race days. I would recommend ENVE over other brands to anyone looking for a great set of wheels. I am planning on upgrading to the 8.9's for next season.

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I love my 6.7 clinchers. My friend's 404FCs are fantastic wheels, and I would be perfectly happy with either, but I went with ENVE because of the fantastic warranty and the bombproof build quality that I've already seen on other ENVE wheels. The 6.7 decals are a nice touch (gloss black on matte carbon), and I also like that there aren't a lot of ENVE wheelsets out there - they help make my bike a little bit unique.

I have the Enve 8.9 with powertap G3 and they are fantastic...no need to run a disc. However, I do regret not waiting until the Clinchers come out.

I really can't see a single advantage to running Tubs now.

It sounds like Zipp is the way to go if I wanted a wheel to race AND train on.

Really scratching my head at how you came to that conclusion.

What's the retail on those, eh? Popularity of a $3500+ wheelset will likely be limited.

Ian has great points listed.

Consider also ENVE SMart System is the only wheel designed with the bike and rider in the wind tunnel. Other wheels are designed alone (no bike, no rider, just wheel). To get a true complete aerodynamic picture, one must take into consideration what forces are acting upon the wheel from wind flow around the bike. ENVE used 6 different bikes I believe.

They are also the only wheel where the front and rear rim shapes are designed independently. Also important as the forces on the front and rear wheel are different.

I bought ENVEs for my personal bike. Just got my 6.7 SMS clinchers. Have only ridden them around the block, but braking is solid--very very close to my aluminum rims. Will take them up and down Mt Lemmon this weekend.

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Brian Grasky
Grasky Endurance: World Championship Triathlon Coaching; Professional Training Camps
RETUL fitter, Biomechanist, USAT Level 3 Coach, USAC Level 2 Coach

 >Other wheels are designed alone (no bike, no rider, just wheel).

I don't believe this is a true statement. I've both read and heard statements from HED and Zipp personnel that lead me to believe they're acutely aware of the interaction of wheel-bike-rider. ENVE may do it better and more completely, but I don't believe Zipp wheels are desigend "alone."

I'm open to being proven wrong, but haven't seen any data that says that. Post-design testing...yes. But I understand the CFD and other design analyses were wheels-only.

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Brian Grasky
Grasky Endurance: World Championship Triathlon Coaching; Professional Training Camps
RETUL fitter, Biomechanist, USAT Level 3 Coach, USAC Level 2 Coach

Nice. What's enve's wheel warranty?

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5 years

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Styrrell

Impressive.

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That's an absurd statement. Do you realize the impossibility of running a rotational-translational problem on a complete bike and adding in a bike and rider?

The *PRIMARY* CFD work Zipp does is certainly for wheel alone, because the front wheel has essentially zero interaction with the rider, and interaction with the frame itself doesn't change a great deal about how the wheel performs overall. That is, the fastest design will still be the fastest, regardless of fork shape (within reason).

This also highlights what the consensus is from folks I have talked to who have ridden ENVE wheels - at higher yaws, the wheels are much more difficult to handle than Zipps. This because, while Simon Smart is a lot of things, he's not a team of engineers. It's great that ENVE bandies about his F1 credentials, but they aren't actually any better than Michael Hall, who was the engineer behind the Firecrest shape, who spent his pre-Zipp career designing Indy car wings.

The Firecrest wheels focused on a real problem - wheel stability - and they solved it by partnering with Dr. Matthew Godo of Intelligent Light, who was the first person EVER to solve a rotational-translational problem in CFD (a wheel that is spinning that's also moving through space).

A CFD model that considers bike+rider developed by a company of ENVE's size (and budget) is going to absurdly simplistic. If that's how they actually developed their wheels, I'm shocked.

ENVE makes "nice" wheels. But if you think the engineering development of their wheels is even a shadow of Zipp's process, you are very mistaken.

As far as wheels go, the ENVEs are aerodynamically fast and apparently made well. The consensus I've heard, however, from numerous riders, is that they handle quite poorly in crosswinds.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

bobby11 - You asked how I came to the conclusion about the zipps?

The consensus I've heard, however, from numerous riders, is that they handle quite poorly in crosswinds.

As I own both Enve 3.4s and Zipp Firecrest 404s (and have considerable miles on each), I can assure you that any difference in crosswind handling is not noticeable in the least. To say that the Enves "handle quite poorly in crosswinds" is, to borrow your own words, "an absurd statement." Further, I've done quite a number of time trials with a Zipp 808 front wheel and find it to be no less dicey (and, in fact, thought it was MORE dicey) in crosswinds than any other front wheel of similar depth I've used (Jet 9, Bontrager 7).

For some perspective on Jordan's perspective, please keep in mind the following (which he should disclose when he posts on such matters): http://www.zipp.com/...triathlon/jordanrapp

I have no such affiliations.

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Stay aero my friends.

I ride Hed Jets. Have had issues blowing spokes on both Heds and Zipps (clydesdale versions-- I weigh 200 lbs even). Mad Fiber products look tempting, as well as Hed 3s.

Nice try. Your conclusion was a guess based on ENVE user reviews & had nothing to do with the material that Rapp posted.

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"The 404FC/CC has a great carbon clincher rim, maybe better than Enve's - but for a race wheelset you really don't want to use the brakes anymore than absolutely necessary, so as long as they aren't going to be training wheels as well I wouldn't worry overmuch about that. Get some good brake pads that you feel comfortable with and you should be fine."

"To the OP - the zipps will probably be more stable in nasty crosswinds, though at that depth most of us wouldn't be bothered by either wheel at all."

"The 808 is simply amazing. It's easy to handle in the wind (even at <140lbs), light, great braking, and clincher"

"Ridden both and own the Zipp 404 FC CC and the 808 FC CC - no noticeable difference btw Enve and Zipp IMO....they are both phenomenal wheels (aero, stiff, fast, reliable/strong)."

That is how I came to my opinion. Everything aside, I have NO doubt that Envy makes a bad ass wheel. But that bad ass wheel is $500 more than a new pair of Zipps. I can get a set of Zipp 808 FC's for under $2k (last year version) but cannot find ANY discounted Envy wheels. The comparable is $3,500 or so and I can't justify paying $1,500 more for Envy when the margins are so close.

I see. So Rapp's response was icing on the cake. Hopefully you get that refund from KS.

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At the end of the day neither wheelset will cost you a race. I do agree with you that zipps can normally be found cheaper (right word for $2700+ wheelsets?) than enve and that would push me toward the zipps. I use my 404 cc as an everyday wheel. I only switch out the tires for races.
That said, if I had to purchase again I would have gone for the 808. It is in my opinion far superior to the 404. I'd love to give the bonty 7 or 9 clincher a try too.

I realize Rapp is sponsored by Zipp and in a way "should" represent them and push their product but there is really no reason he would be required to jump into this forum and offer his $.02. I trust his opinion and his insight on the rationale behind Zipp.

I just wish I had more money so I could buy them both.

Yeah he did make some good points about the CFD modelling process. It wouldn't be a bad idea to try and find someone local with a set & test ride them. It might be a long shot, but who knows.

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Sports Basement (Bay Area, California) does have a set of 808 FC's that can be used as a demo. I'm thinking about see what that will cost but I'll tell ya....TriSports is selling the rear 404 for under $1200 which is a good deal. Sports Basement has last years 808 FC's for $1300 - 20% on a promotional night. The choice is just so damn hard when you can only buy 1 wheelset and to me....it's a very expensive investment.

Zipps are definitely a little cheaper (well quite a bit in most cases). I was lucky enough to pick up a set of the 6.7's w/ G3 powertap through my tri team at a very good price so that is the route I went. Last season I rode a set of 808FC and loved them but decided to skip the 404's and go straight to the ENVE wheels because I liked the look of the wheel more (let's be honest that this is likely the most important factor for 95% of us) and the 5 year warranty just made sense for this kind of investment. I just wish my wheels got here faster (should be coming this week).

The reason you're seeing Firecrest rear wheels so deeply discounted is that they're mostly 2011 models that Zipp will not accept for their upgrade program to make them Shimano 11-speed compatible. They will accept 2012 Firecrest rear wheels for upgrade, but nothing before (despite the fact that there's no real difference in hub that would make the upgrade more of a challenge except that they don't want to get into the hassle of dealing with older wheels that may have other issues that would make re-dishing more challenging). Apparently, they've worked out an arrangement with Wheelbuilder.com to do upgrades of older model Firecrest wheels. Zipp wants $250 for the upgrade. You pay shipping to them. They cover return shipping. I don't know what Wheelbuilder will be charging. Anyway, the new 2013 wheels that are already Shimano 11-speed compatible are already in stores.

I spoke with Enve last week about upgrading my 3.4s to be Shimano 11-speed compatible. I have the DT 240 hubs. There's a new freehub body that's available for something like $90. Technically, the wheel should also be re-dished, but if you don't, you'll only be out by 1 mm and, with a small derailleur adjustment, there should be no discernable effect if you don't re-dish.

As for the price, I can certainly understand that consideration. Wheel prices are just totally insane. But you don't have to buy Enve's from Enve and there are places out there that have them at far better prices. It's worth a call to Fairwheel Bikes (www.fairwheelbikes.com) to get a quote. They offer quite a lot of build options and seem to have very good pricing. There are others.

Anybody know this about enve 6.7s or 8.9s:

I know the front and rear rims are different in width, but does that include the brake track? I.e., is the front brake track slightly wider than the rear brake track?

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Specs on the Enve website say the fronts are 26 mm wide and the rears are 24 mm wide. That's for the 6.7 clincher and for the 8.9 tubular (as the 8.9 clincher is not yet listed on the website).

Right, I saw that. But are they talking about the widest point of the rims, or the widths of the brake tracks? Because sometimes those are totally different numbers.

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If I had the money, I'd trade my zipp 808s for enve. The cool factor alone is worth it. I think they are equally aero, so I'm not even going to write some phoney baloney bs about these tests that supposedly show differences. I'd get everything enve if I could!

I gave Fairwheel Bikes a call - real nice guys. $2710 for a set of 6.5's laced to DT Swiss 240's. They are within a few hundred of the Zipps.

Enves for sure. B a little different from the Shimano/Zipp/ Tiawan carbon frame rider. Stand out a little!

Be sure you had 'em price the clinchers! Don't want an unpleasant surprise again. ;-)

They quote tubs for $2582 on their site... So around $2700 sounds right for clinchers.

I found a 2012 Zipp 404 FC for $2150 after tax (LBS)

$550 less than Enve. Enve claims that the DT 240 hubs are better than the zipps.

To elaborate on the "handle quite poorly in crosswinds" statement, Zipp used the same CFD modeling program (solving for rotational/translational performance over time) to model several of their competitors. Based on these data, the natural frequency of eddy shedding of the various wheels was determined. The validity of the model is certainly a topic for discussion, but it has been shown to be accurate and robust in CFD vs. windtunnel testing. The ENVE wheels shed eddies at a frequency that coincides with human "natural frequencies" - my recollection is that it's about 2Hz; this was a phone call with Josh P, so I'm sorry not to have more detailed records. So, this led Zipp to ask folks what they thought of the wheels at races. And, when I saw folks riding ENVE wheels, I'd ask, "what do you think?" It was a consistent response of "I don't think they handle well in crosswinds." That's what the CFD said should be the case. And that's what seems to be the case in talking to folks who ride them.

In my experience, this really becomes notable with higher depths. I.e., I never had an issue with older 404s, though I did notice in strong and gusty winds that the new 404s are easier. The really palpable difference came between older 808s and new 808s. Is your 808 a FC or prior version?

I have Zipp listed among my sponsors on every post I write. Do you think that is inadequate disclosure? Furthermore, in my experience, I would say my own bias is certainly no greater than that of someone who's shelled out a bunch of money for expensive wheels who wants to convince himself that he made a good investment. If you think the fact that I'm paid to ride Zipps somehow makes me less trustworthy than you because you paid for your ENVE's, I'd say you don't spend much time online (not that I'm saying that's a bad thing). The "fanboy" culture is pretty insane in today's society. Read any article about Apple vs. Google, and it's astounding what people will write. I am not denying my own bias - I know the Zipp engineers; I know how the product is developed; I have a lot of miles on the wheels; I love the company. But don't deny your own. We all have our biases. But hurling bias accusations at one another does very little to actually help provide relevant information.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I wouldn't say they're $550 better. $2150 sounds like a pretty good deal on a new 2012 Firecrest 404 wheelset.

ALWAYS appreciate your insight Jordan. I'm no fanboy either way (actually, was more of a Zipp fanboy since I know/race against some of the factory team guys in my area)

You mentioned that you asked athletes what they think so I'll chime in and say that my Enve wheels handle just fine in crosswinds. No issues at all. In fact, the ONLY front wheel I had a handful with was an old Zipp 1080. Yowza. Gusts will tug on an old Jet 90 is run with 19mm for a short dedicated TT. I have no issues with my 404 clinchers either. But overall, I like the weight savings, durability and hub (options) on Enve wheels better, even if they are slightly more expensive (do people actually pay retail for these crazy wheelset prices?) I do think Zipp puts in a bit more research into their wheels and are always the innovators, but Enve *builds* the better one.

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Fatigue is biochemical, not biomechanical.
- Andrew Coggan, PhD

I don't care who sponsors Jordan... from all the posts I've read, he has nearly always been unbiased and objective. So, when he says something about Zipp wheels, even if he is sponsored by them, he always tackles the concern from an engineering perspective.

Anyway, Jordan, when you say that anecdotal evidence (the consensus you've heard) that they (Enves) handle poorly in crosswinds, you are already referring to the Smart Enves? I had a friend who had the original non-Smart Enve, then upgraded to the Smart Enve wheels. He says that the Smart ones do handle better in crosswinds.


BTW, not that "Simon Smart > than Michael Hall" (which is an absurd statement), but F1>Indy... LOL. :p


FWIW, I have tried 404FCs (front) for a short while. In some crosswinds, they handled just as well as the Smart 6.7 (well, just the "6"). Both were paired with a Hed Jet 9 C2 rear. I haven't tried 808FCs. In any case, I loved both the Zipp and the Enve.

Learning more about enve wheels ...
Which model(s) do you ride where you tested them in cross-winds? were they the 'smart' models?

Greg @ dsw

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To add my opinion to the debate I have done a fair amount of riding on ENVE and Zipp wheels.

1 x Season on 808's (pre-firecrest)
1 x Season 808's (firecrest)
.5 x Season ENVE 8.9's

All have been tubs and all on Conti Comp tyres. I am a road cyclist and not a triathlete, although I have done the bike leg of an ironman before. So my opinion may be different in that my requirements are different to triathletes (along with the usual fact as a road cyclist I can handle a bike *gags*).

I found the pre 808 Firecrests actually worse to ride in a TT than an 808 front and rear disc, they were unpredictable in gusty conditions.

The 808 Firecrests were a big improvement here and I really enjoyed these wheels. They are a great TT wheel and a great road race wheel. I think the hubs are excellent too. They hubs require more attention than say DT 240's as you have to adjust them a bit more, so they aren't set and forget, but they are really good and reliable.

The ENVE 8.9's are an equally good wheel as far as aero and stiffness. The DT 240 hubs are set and forget and every bit as reliable as the Zipp hubs. The ENVE wheels are the same to handle in a constant wind as the Zipp wheels, and both are predictable in constant wind/breeze. The ENVE wheels outperform the Zipp wheels in gusty conditions, they appear to react more predictably, whereas the 808's can at times be hard to handle in big wind gusts (50-60kph+). The ENVE wheels are also more predictable in their handling in a bunch in a crit with constant direction changes.



I won't debate the aero advantage of one over the other as there is plenty of data out there. But the handling of the ENVE wheels is better IMO. I think the ENVE wheels also look better, so they get some style points. Whatever wheel you choose you are going to end up with a nice set of wheels. It depends on your requirements, triathlon stuff, both wheels are great, you have minimal direction changes and less to worry about. Road racing / crits, the ENVE 8.9's are great and can be ridden in nearly all wind conditions.

P.S. FYI I pay for all wheels I ride and am not aligned with either company.

P.P.S. Just get some Lightweight Fernwegs, way cooler than either set of wheels.

Getting new race wheels for Christmas...Enve 6.7s with Chris King hubs. Moving up from HED Jet 6 SCTs. Highly recommended by my bike fit guru in Houston. No first hand knowledge yet. They sure look cool. Will be riding them Saturday afternoon after a re-fit. Can't wait.

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SM Gose
Red Lodge, MT

This was a pair of Smart wheels. As rroof and bobby11 posted, though, they think ENVEs handle fine. ENVEs clearly are not "unrideable." But it'd be nice if you got a chance to ride them, as the folks that were not fans were certainly not inexperienced riders. Tire choice, of course, will be a factor in all tests.

As for F1 vs. Indy, the problem with both is that they are not MotoGP engineers, meaning that neither sport has much experience with rotating objects that see clean air. And even with motoGP, you don't have rotating airfoils. In that sense, the very low speeds of bike racing and the fact that wheels are in and of themselves such a massive part of the aerodynamic system and are also airfoils themselves makes bikes unique. Bikes are simple in a lot of ways, but also not. Especially when you consider how much smaller of a budget you are generally referring to for R&D... That said, Zipp spends over $20,000 a year per engineer (and they have ~20) on computing platforms alone. Whether or not that's a good investment is up to the person cutting the check for the wheels...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I would say my own bias is certainly no greater than that of someone who's shelled out a bunch of money for expensive wheels who wants to convince himself that he made a good investment.

I bought my ENVEs used off of the ST Classifieds. I bought my Zipp 404 and 808 (both Firecrest clinchers) from my LBS. I have so many sets of HEDs -- Jets and Stingers, 6s and 9s and discs -- I can't remember where I bought them all. I don't feel at all compelled to defend the Enves because of what I have invested in them. In matter of fact, if you read my earlier posts in this thread, you'll see that I actually recommended the new Bonty Aeolus D3 wheels over either of the OPs choices. As I understand it, the carbon clincher version of the D3 wheels is made for them by Zipp, but they use hub internals that are essentially the DT Swiss 180s. Very, very nice hubs.

That's interesting information about the ENVE wheels from your Zipp contacts and the people you've spoken with who ride them. It doesn't jive at all with my direct experience with the 3.4s. Maybe the 6.7s are somehow dramatically different. I have a friend who rides them and he hasn't reported any issues, but he hasn't had Firecrests for comparison as I have.


As for any accusation of bias, lets call it an accusation of sponsorship, shall we? That sounds less harsh and even a bit congratulatory. And sorry I failed to notice your list of sponsors at the bottom of your post. I guess I thought that was a disclosure of potential side-effects from reading your posts or something. My mind just blocked it out. ;-)

I went back and forth myself and did a lot of research and asked tons of informed people before I made my decision. A great amount of bike shops all told me that the zipps do not hold up well over time. I was told that they need a good amount of maintenance and tuning. As far as someone saying ENVE is a "nice" wheel comparing it to a Zipp is laughable. I've had mine for over 2 years without any problems and they handle in the winds just fine. No problem there either. In my opinion there are times when engineers or designers hit the nail on the head and don't have to spend time and money on marketing because the product speaks for itself. Case in point is omega brakes. Designed and built by Nick and he is not a million dollar company. Just because ENVE has not been around as long as or does not have the budget Zipp has does not make them a inferior company. I plan on upgrading from my 6.7's to the 8.9's for 2013. I have never questioned my original purchase, not for a second.

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LOL! Wish we could... I think the Fernwegs' brand comes from the fact that the wallet becomes Lightweight after...

Ciao, after 6 month have you the same opinion?