Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
critique my position(s)
Quote | Reply
This didn't seem to get much attention when I posted it in the MIT aero tips thread, so thought I'd post it again (since I'd gone to all the trouble of scanning in the images, etc. <g>):

http://home.earthlink.net/~acoggan/aeropositions/

Again, the wind tunnel measurements were:

Me on Hooker w/ 700C "front end":

@ 0 deg of yaw CdA = 0.238 m^2
@ 5 deg of yaw CdA = 0.233 m^2
@10 deg of yaw CdA = 0.232 m^2
@15 deg of yaw CdA = 0.224 m^2

Me on Hooker w/ 650C "front end":

@ 0 degrees of yaw CdA = 0.238 m^2
@ 5 degrees of yaw CdA = 0.227 m^2
@ 10 degrees of yaw CdA = 0.214 m^2
@ 15 degrees of yaw CdA = 0.213 m^2

Me on Hooker w/ Superman position (not pictured):

@ 0 degrees of yaw CdA = 0.214 m^2
@ 5 degrees of yaw CdA = 0.219 m^2
@ 10 degrees of yaw CdA = 0.222 m^2

Me on Wynn:

@ 0 degrees of yaw CdA = 0.274 m^2
@ 5 degrees of yaw CdA = 0.260 m^2
@ 10 degrees of yaw CdA = 0.263 m^2
@ 15 degrees of yaw CdA = 0.271 m^2

Now for some commentary:

1) note that while my CdA at 0 deg of yaw didn't change when I dropped my handlebars by ~4 cm (by switching from a 700C front wheel and fork to a 650C front wheel and fork), it was markedly lower at varying degrees of yaw. This effect was even more evident in a "head up" position more in keeping with what I tend to adopt under stress, e.g., in the action photo from master nationals in 1999 (data not shown). OTOH, when using the Superman position my CdA was markedly lower at 0 deg of yaw, but actually rose slightly with increasing yaw angle. I think this nicely illustrates the limitation of testing at only 0 deg of yaw (e.g., as one essentially must do when performing field tests using a powermeter), since we rarely, if ever, race under conditions where there is absolutely no crosswind (even on a track in still air, the yaw angle can approach 10 deg in the corners).

2) Yes, I realize that my saddle appears too high in the photo w/ the 700C "front end". I think this is because it was a staged (i.e., non-pedaling) shot, and that I was sitting further back on the saddle than I do when I'm actually racing. Indeed, you can see more of the back of the saddle in the two photos of the bike fitted with the 650C "front end", even though the action photo is taken from a frontal angle.

BTW, the reason that I took the staged photos in the first place is that I was trying to understand why I "sailed" so well in the 650C position (esp. w/ my head down), but not at all in the Superman position. I seem to have lost the frontal and 10 deg of yaw pics that I also took, but the overall impression they gave was that the lower, more compact position tended to help me cover up the bike better. This is consistent with the fact that, when tested sans rider* (i.e., me), my Hooker bike showed no tendency to "sail" by itself, either with the standard bars or with my jury-rigged Superman set-up (22 cm stem plus cut-off mini-MTB bars plus clip-on aero bars):

Hooker w/ Hooker bars:

@ 0 degrees of yaw CdA = 0.062 m^2
@ 5 degrees of yaw CdA = 0.066 m^2
@ 10 degrees of yaw CdA = 0.062 m^2

Hooker w/ Superman bars:

@ 0 degrees of yaw CdA = 0.064 m^2
@ 5 degrees of yaw CdA = 0.069 m^2
@ 10 degrees of yaw CdA = 0.066 m^2

*Somewhat regretably, these tests were conducted with the cranks vertical and with the Look-style Shimano pedals hanging in the wind. This makes comparison with Kyle's published data for the Hooker a bit difficult, since he tested with the cranks horizontal and w/o any pedals attached. Nonetheless, my data were w/in 10% of his.
Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: Sep 1, 06 8:46
Quote Reply
Re: critique my position(s) [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I'll say it...



Your seat's too high
Quote Reply
Re: critique my position(s) [Floating Debris] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
I'll say it...

Your seat's too high

You're too late: I already beat you to it. :-)
Quote Reply
Re: critique my position(s) [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
My back hurts just looking at that.
Quote Reply
Re: critique my position(s) [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Thanks for that info. This does support the need for individuals to experiment with positioning. (and having a PM to quantify the benefits)

Question for you: have you ever made (or asked your wife to make) a jersey with tufts on it and try to get some in situ flow visualization?

I'm thinking this could be an excellent way of determining ß !=0 effects.



Cheers,

Daniel

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock
Quote Reply
Re: critique my position(s) [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
<bump>

Y'all will just love this: I've added some pics of the position I've used the last couple of years in the 3 km pursuit, including one of my basement...have fun!!

http://home.earthlink.net/~acoggan/aeropositions/

EDIT: Field tests conducted using a powermeter indicate a CdA (at 0 deg of yaw) of 0.231+/-0.004 m^2 for the pursuit position on the Cervelo. Interestingly, however, I have consistently been unable to match my prior 3 km or 40 km times when using this bike instead of my Hooker, despite equivalent power output. Again, I suspect that this may be because I "sailed" better on the Hooker, something that isn't revealed when testing at only 0 deg of yaw (again, as one must do when performing field tests to estimate CdA).
Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: Sep 1, 06 9:54
Quote Reply
Re: critique my position(s) [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Andy,

Were there any handling issues between the two different front ends on the same bike (e.g 700 c vs 650 c on the Hooker)?

Thanks


Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com
Quote Reply
Re: critique my position(s) [DHeineck] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
Question for you: have you ever made (or asked your wife to make) a jersey with tufts on it and try to get some in situ flow visualization?
Nope.
Quote Reply
Re: critique my position(s) [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
very informative. Thanks for sharing!

�The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it.� -Michelangelo

MoodBoost Drink : Mood Support + Energy.
Quote Reply
Re: critique my position(s) [S McGregor] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
Andy,

Were there any handling issues between the two different front ends on the same bike (e.g 700 c vs 650 c on the Hooker)?

Thanks


No - the 650C fork had only 2.5 cm of offset (vs. 4 cm for the 700C fork), so even though the head tube angle increased from 72.0 to 74.8 deg, the trail remained at a healthy 5.8 cm (down from the overly-stable - IMHO - original trail of 6.7 cm). The front center therefore decreased by 1.5 cm, but still remained rather long at 60.5 cm. Finally, although the bottom bracket height dropped by 0.8 cm, it was still 27.2 cm, i.e., plenty high enough to avoid scraping a pedal even when using longer-than-average cranks.

Can you tell that I put a lot of thought into this before I invested in the 650C fork and wheels (with their proprietary hubs), and that it is something that the Hooker folks probably envisioned when they designed their bike? ;-)
Quote Reply
Re: critique my position(s) [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
After reading through, I noticed that...but you know, it needs to be up on the thread.



Since my back/shoulders would never survive that position, should I try to get narrower? I think I've read something about that helping reduce drag more than getting low.
Quote Reply
Re: critique my position(s) [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
hey, what's that weight machine doing in your basement? You on a secret weight lifting plan :)
Quote Reply
Re: critique my position(s) [OWEN_MEANY] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
hey, what's that weight machine doing in your basement? You on a secret weight lifting plan :)


Come on, you can do better than that <g>: I don't think that it is any secret that I lift weights 3x/wk for 3 mo every year, and have done so every year since I turned 40.

A better question would be "what's that noose hanging from the floor joists?"...I'll let everyone mull that one over for a while before explaining (unless someone guesses correctly first).
Last edited by: Andrew Coggan: Sep 1, 06 10:01
Quote Reply
Re: critique my position(s) [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
my bad. I thought for some reason you were in the anti-lifting weights camp. I'm getting everyone confused.
Quote Reply
Re: critique my position(s) [Floating Debris] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
Since my back/shoulders would never survive that position, should I try to get narrower? I think I've read something about that helping reduce drag more than getting low.
I think you should do what I've done: read everything you can about the topic of aero positioning, study the positions used by really fast riders, etc., then combine that knowledge with direct measurements of your power and aerodynamic drag characterstics, the latter ideally obtained via wind tunnel testing (to enable measurement at yaw as well to just speed the process) or, if necessary, via field tests. Then keep repeating the process until you're satisfied with how fast you're going (which, if you're like me, will never happen). ;-)
Quote Reply
Re: critique my position(s) [OWEN_MEANY] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
my bad. I thought for some reason you were in the anti-lifting weights camp.
You must be thinking of Paulo a.k.a. smartasscoach a.k.a. The Committee.
Quote Reply
Re: critique my position(s) [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Superman looks like potential for loss of power output, but of course personal experimentation is required. Lance Armstrong's postion was totally different.

Please critique my helmet:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...tring=helmet;#956918


(y foiler)


Quote Reply
Re: critique my position(s) [foil] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
Superman looks like potential for loss of power output, but of course personal experimentation is required.
Uh, I didn't put up any pics of the Superman position?
Quote Reply
Re: critique my position(s) [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
So it seems overall the 650c bike did best, is that how I read it???? I wonder where I heard that before??????? (-;
Quote Reply
Re: critique my position(s) [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Oh sorry, the one I looked at appears that way to me, maybe I am uneducated on that.


(y foiler)


Quote Reply
Re: critique my position(s) [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
To hold onto to start a roller session.

greg
Quote Reply
Re: critique my position(s) [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Looking at the Hooker 700 picture ... what happens to the drag when you slide forward in the saddle under power? I mean, does your position change enough to detect a difference? Back still flat? That sort of stuff.

-jeff
Quote Reply
Re: critique my position(s) [monty] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
So it seems overall the 650c bike did best, is that how I read it???? I wonder where I heard that before??????? (-;
No, the position that I achieved via lowering my handlebars ~4 cm did best. Because of my disproprionately short legs (and therefore low saddle height) and the fact that I was using non-adjustable integrated handlebars, that required replacing the front wheel and fork on a dual 700C frame with the 650C version, thus creating a "funny bike". I did explore the possibility of having Hooker build me some one-piece aero bars with downsloping wings, and they even sent me some they had built for others to try out. Ultimately, however, I opted to just swap the front wheel and fork...but the reduction in CdA of the bike+rider package likely had absolutely nothing to do with changes in the drag created by the bike, since 1) CdA at 0 deg yaw didn't change, and 2) the CdA of the bike alone with the cobbled-together Superman bars and 700C front wheel and fork was nearly identical to that of the bike alone with the 650C front wheel and fork.
Quote Reply
Re: critique my position(s) [Andrew Coggan] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
In Reply To:
hey, what's that weight machine doing in your basement? You on a secret weight lifting plan :)


Come on, you can do better than that <g>: I don't think that it is any secret that I lift weights 3x/wk for 3 mo every year, and have done so every year since I turned 40.

A better question would be "what's that noose hanging from the floor joists?"...I'll let everyone mull that one over for a while before explaining (unless someone guesses correctly first).


Looks like it's hooked up to the Hypoxico unit (which is the most interesting thing in this picture). Going up to a tent in the bedroom, perhaps?

If so, it's not clear to me why the Hepa filter, which normally goes inside the tent is sitting downstairs -- unless, UNLESS Andy is doing Hypoxic training intervals on the bike too. That would be a huge revelation. Wait till this hits the wires: renowned exercise physiologist secretly using controversial IHT protocol!!

Say, why don't you try the thing where you train one leg in a hypoxic state and the other normally? After a few weeks compare the two.



-jens

My latest book: "Out of the Melting Pot, Into the Fire" is on sale on Amazon and at other online and local booksellers
Quote Reply
Re: critique my position(s) [jeffh] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
In Reply To:
Looking at the Hooker 700 picture ... what happens to the drag when you slide forward in the saddle under power? I mean, does your position change enough to detect a difference? Back still flat? That sort of stuff.

-jeff
For me at least, the biggest difference between any posed shots and that assumed under pressure is how I hold my head. Specifically, the wind tunnel tests show a distinct benefit to "turtling" my neck (e.g., as in the pic in the basement), which is as you'd expect. However, when TTing I have a tendency to either lift my head (e.g., the action photo w/ the Camelbak), or look straight down (e.g., the pic of me on the Wynn), either of which increases my drag. Like many, I do tend to "tip it" on the saddle when riding hard, but this only adds a bit more arch to my back, and doesn't affect my drag.
Quote Reply

Prev Next