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Going back to longer cranks
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Well, I guess I might have done an experiment that at the moment, do not like the results.

At the prodding of a person, who said shorter cranks will make one a faster runner, I made some changes from the 200mm cranks I have used for years
both in racing and training.

About 18 months ago I changed my 200mm powercranks to 175 on the Velotron. I noticed for the same gearing I could not push above about 260 watts, compared
to the 300 watts I did with the 200's with the same gearing but did not think much about it.

I then changed my race bike to 175's in the end of May, after hilly races like Napa and Auburn. Raced the rest of the season, all but one was pretty flat, and did not think much about it.
Bike times stayed about the same, running times get a little better, so I assumed it was from the shorter cranks.

I normally did 1 hour trainer rides in the Velotron around 6 days a week with the powercranks. Around the end of last year I changed this to 90 minute rides.

I raced HITS Napa last Sunday. A very hilly bike and run course. The last few years I biked around 1:15 and ran around 43. Well, this year I got a huge shock. My bike totally totally sucked!
I did over 1:23. I was getting passed by folks on the hills like I was walking. I was pushing as hard as I could but nothing was happening. I then got onto the run and even though I stopped 3 times
to mess around with my timing chip that was digging into my ankle, I posted my best even run on the 10K, even though it was really hilly, with a sub 39 time.

When I got home I had a number of folks call after seeing my bike time and asked if I was bagging the bike, or if I was holding back for the run. I was just in shock asking what happened. I had checked
my brakes before the race so they were not rubbing. If I was too tired my run would have been terrible it would seem also.

So I went back and looked at some data. I noticed at Donner, a super hilly race, my bike time was slower than in the past. I remember saying to a friend I was racing with that my bike just did not feel right.
I then thought about I was not able to really push beyond 260 watts sitting on the Velotron.

So I started thinking. For a flat course, I really did not see any difference. But on a hilly course, when I was used to the leverage that longer cranks gave me, did I lose this with the shorter ones?

So I put my powercranks back to 200mm and on the first day, I was able to go up to 300 watts with no real issues at the same gearing and cadence. I just put the 200mm cranks back on my TT bike
and will see how I do at the Folsom and Auburn race in May, both which are hilly.

I am also asking what happened on my run. Taking off over 3 minutes for a sub 39 10K and being like the 10th fastest run at 58 is nuts. All I really changed is going from like 6 hours a week on the powercranks
to 9.5 hours a week. Could the extra training on the bike with the powercranks have helped my run at much?

Shall be interesting in my next couple of races with the longer cranks back on to see how my bike and run times are compared to the past and other racers.

So has anyone else tried shorter cranks and then said maybe this was not for them?

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Going back to longer cranks [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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" I noticed for the same gearing I could not push above about 260 watts, compared to the 300 watts I did with the 200's"

What if you use a different gear?
I mean from first principles if you lose 40 watts with a crank change, then yeah, don't do that.

But it is probably fundamentally impossible to not be able to do 300 watts just because you have normal sized cranks instead of really long ones. Over what duration are we talking about?



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
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Re: Going back to longer cranks [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
" I noticed for the same gearing I could not push above about 260 watts, compared to the 300 watts I did with the 200's"

What if you use a different gear?
I mean from first principles if you lose 40 watts with a crank change, then yeah, don't do that.

But it is probably fundamentally impossible to not be able to do 300 watts just because you have normal sized cranks instead of really long ones. Over what duration are we talking about?

I did not try a different gear. I just know at the race Sunday, I was just crushed on the hills but BOP folks! I may not be the best in hills, but never have I been crushed like that. Same gearing
as other races so at the moment, the only logical thing for me seems to be the cranks. So will see what happens. If this does not work, will keep looking but so far the numbers seem to point in
one direction.

The intervals I do 3 times a week for the last few years start out with a ladder, 160 to 300 watts, 1 minute apart. As I said, when I switched to 175's, with the same gearing and ladder,
I basically have never been able to push sitting down usually over 260 watts. I would have to stand and do super slow RPM's to get to the top. Put the 200's back on, same gearing
and no real issue getting to 300 sitting the entire time with decent RPM's.

There are just so few folks who have ever tried longer cranks. There are so few tall folks who race. I am lucky that I can adjust my powercrank lengths on my Velotron and see what the power does
on intervals I have used for years.

As I said, this is just all a guess. I have to try something different after such a poor race. Shall see what happens shortly.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Going back to longer cranks [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe if you sold the power cranks and trained like a real murican you would be faster on 175s?
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Re: Going back to longer cranks [copperman] [ In reply to ]
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copperman wrote:
Maybe if you sold the power cranks and trained like a real murican you would be faster on 175s?

And run a lot slower.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Going back to longer cranks [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Re: Going back to longer cranks [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Dave, how tall are you?
What size frame are you on?

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Re: Going back to longer cranks [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
are your power cranks in power crank mode when doing this stuff?

Yep, they are unlocked.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Going back to longer cranks [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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In that case, I'm out of my element. Who knows!

h2ofun wrote:
jackmott wrote:
are your power cranks in power crank mode when doing this stuff?

Yep, they are unlocked.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: Going back to longer cranks [DarkSpeedWorks] [ In reply to ]
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DarkSpeedWorks wrote:
Dave, how tall are you?
What size frame are you on?

6'5" 36 inseam

The model says it is a 59. I think I was able to get the same specs from my fit onto a 58 cervelo, which is what I am working on buying now.

Since finding longer cranks are not easy, let alone folks having an open mind, not many have tried.

I talked with a crank mfg yesterday and he hears all the time from folks they somehow need shorter cranks because x person said so
without any test of longer or shorter. He told me he has played with down to 150's since he is not real tall but could not stand them riding
in the mountains where he lives and can ride on anything he wants. He rides 190's.

So even though I know very few, if anyone has tried some of this stuff going up, rather than down, but was worth a shot. As I said, I have 2 hilly races
next month so will get more data points. If this does not work, right now I would have no idea what is going on. But it is sure fun doing what ifs with the ability
to change change lengths on my trainer, and do some testing and see what the power does. Not many can do this test that I have ever read about.
The velotron makes is a 100% controlled test.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Going back to longer cranks [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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What was your power output in the races? Without this, you are really guessing. What was your heart rate on the bike? Do you know if you really pushed hard on the bike? Have you trained different cadence in your training? Probably one of the drawbacks of a velotron in erg mode, you need to focus on different cadence ranges since you have no gears.
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Re: Going back to longer cranks [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Shorter cranks are usually intended to improve fit issues. When you change crank size, your bike fit changes a little, mainly hip angle opens. When you have shorter cranks you need to use higher RPM's or push the pedals harder. It depends on what your limiting factors are.


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Re: Going back to longer cranks [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
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motoguy128 wrote:
Shorter cranks are usually intended to improve fit issues. When you change crank size, your bike fit changes a little, mainly hip angle opens. When you have shorter cranks you need to use higher RPM's or push the pedals harder. It depends on what your limiting factors are.

Good point, I am not a spinner, I am around 80-85 rpm.

But with long legs I seem to be able to push.

Again, wish I could get some folks who have or are trying some longer cranks rather than just folks thoughts who have never tried something telling me it cannot work. :)

Why could longer cranks not be used to improve a fit issue?

Seems you can change your hip angle with changing your front end and not touching crank lengths?


.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Going back to longer cranks [Jctriguy] [ In reply to ]
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Jctriguy wrote:
What was your power output in the races? Without this, you are really guessing. What was your heart rate on the bike? Do you know if you really pushed hard on the bike? Have you trained different cadence in your training? Probably one of the drawbacks of a velotron in erg mode, you need to focus on different cadence ranges since you have no gears.

^^^ without actual data, it's just a WAG. It could be you need to change your RPM/gear selection.

You are over thinking it. You speed climbing is based on power divided by your weight. You choose the gear needed to hit your target power based on the grade. That's it. Nothing magical. You don't even need to train or practice riding hills to ride hills. Generate power.... pick gear. THATS IT!!! Same thing with a headwind. If you suck at climbing then it's a combination of 3 issues 1) you need to make more power 2) you need to lose weight 3) you need to learn to use your gear or select the correct gearing.


TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com
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Re: Going back to longer cranks [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Multiple people called you to ask if you were bagging the ride? You have some hardcore stalkerS
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Re: Going back to longer cranks [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
motoguy128 wrote:
Shorter cranks are usually intended to improve fit issues. When you change crank size, your bike fit changes a little, mainly hip angle opens. When you have shorter cranks you need to use higher RPM's or push the pedals harder. It depends on what your limiting factors are.

Good point, I am not a spinner, I am around 80-85 rpm.

But with long legs I seem to be able to push.

Again, wish I could get some folks who have or are trying some longer cranks rather than just folks thoughts who have never tried something telling me it cannot work. :)

Why could longer cranks not be used to improve a fit issue?

Seems you can change your hip angle with changing your front end and not touching crank lengths?

Draw the points on paper. Longer cranks mean the knee comes up higher at TDC. Regardless of how forward you get, longer cranks will always cause a reduced hip angle vs shorter cranks.

Had an interesting discussion with a few sports science staff I work with. We are working with a few new sports, and the sports are hesitant to use our staff since they don't have first hand knowledge of the sport. What our staff constantly remind people is that science is science, the sport specific part is fairly minimal in terms of the bigger picture. People can offer excellent advice and comments without ever having first hand experience with your specific situation. A coach in this situation would be able to ask a number of questions and get to a better answer than some random thoughts on a ST post.
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Re: Going back to longer cranks [npage148] [ In reply to ]
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npage148 wrote:
Multiple people called you to ask if you were bagging the ride? You have some hardcore stalkerS

Nah, just a group of my friends. We all support each other in our races and talk about how they went.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: Going back to longer cranks [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]
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motoguy128 wrote:
Jctriguy wrote:
What was your power output in the races? Without this, you are really guessing. What was your heart rate on the bike? Do you know if you really pushed hard on the bike? Have you trained different cadence in your training? Probably one of the drawbacks of a velotron in erg mode, you need to focus on different cadence ranges since you have no gears.


^^^ without actual data, it's just a WAG. It could be you need to change your RPM/gear selection.

You are over thinking it. You speed climbing is based on power divided by your weight. You choose the gear needed to hit your target power based on the grade. That's it. Nothing magical. You don't even need to train or practice riding hills to ride hills. Generate power.... pick gear. THATS IT!!! Same thing with a headwind. If you suck at climbing then it's a combination of 3 issues 1) you need to make more power 2) you need to lose weight 3) you need to learn to use your gear or select the correct gearing.

trust me on this. #2 for Dave is "mission impossible"

You look up skinny in the dictionary and you'll see a photo of him!

I should be so lucky! (umm... I mean disciplined :-| )

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Re: Going back to longer cranks [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Another potential issue is that the 175's would result in your legs being more bent at the bottom of the pedal stroke, which can hurt power for some people I think. To compensate exactly you would need to raise your seat by 25mm. Of course then you'd have to raise your bars too to hold the same upper body position.
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Re: Going back to longer cranks [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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About 18 months ago I changed my 200mm powercranks to 175 on the Velotron. I noticed for the same gearing I could not push above about 260 watts, compared
to the 300 watts I did with the 200's with the same gearing but did not think much about it.


When you use shorter cranks you need to increase cadence and force in some combination that equals the proportion of the length change if you want to put out the same power. In your case this means a 14% increase. You could increase force or cadence 14%, or combination of the two that adds up to 14%. If you left the Velotron in the same gear, you must have been running a lower cadence, correct?

Did you change your saddle position? You would normally want to keep the same leg extension, which would mean moving your saddle up and back ~25mm.

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Re: Going back to longer cranks [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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What changes did you make to your saddle and bar positions to accommodate the crank length change?

What changes did you make to your gearing to ensure you had the same range of "gain ratio" (especially on the low end for climbing)?

If you didn't make the proper changes in regards to those 2 questions above, then I'm not surprised you noticed a difference.

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Going back to longer cranks [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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Not to harp on the obvious here, but this is one of the primary reasons to have a coach, especially for those that don't have a good understanding of training methods. A coach would be tracking your training and would have some system in place to monitor progress. They would help you figure out why you biked slower and ran faster. They would help in your training so you wouldn't need to post about biking slower and not knowing why. They would've suggested some things to try when you first saw a 10%+ drop in power during training.

Coaches do a heck of a lot more than kicking your butt off the couch. But you know...
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Re: Going back to longer cranks [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:

About 18 months ago I changed my 200mm powercranks to 175 on the Velotron. I noticed for the same gearing I could not push above about 260 watts, compared
to the 300 watts I did with the 200's with the same gearing but did not think much about it.

It's this statement that indicates that you don't fully understand that the crank arm is one lever in a series of "levers" between your foot and the ground (or velotron load generator in this case). With the shorter crank length and the same "gearing" (chainring and cassette choices) then you had less gain to the load generator...you weren't comparing "apples to applies".

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Going back to longer cranks [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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"you weren't comparing "apples to applies"."

As a matter of fact that is literally what he was doing!
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Re: Going back to longer cranks [Trirunner] [ In reply to ]
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Trirunner wrote:
"you weren't comparing "apples to applies"."

As a matter of fact that is literally what he was doing!

Too funny...stupid ipad autocorrect :-/

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: Going back to longer cranks [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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I don't know about stupid but surely inconsistent, lol
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Re: Going back to longer cranks [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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OMG were can i purchase Powercranks and a Velotron trainer? please take my money
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Re: Going back to longer cranks [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
About 18 months ago I changed my 200mm powercranks to 175 on the Velotron. I noticed for the same gearing I could not push above about 260 watts, compared
to the 300 watts I did with the 200's with the same gearing but did not think much about it.


When you use shorter cranks you need to increase cadence and force in some combination that equals the proportion of the length change if you want to put out the same power. In your case this means a 14% increase. You could increase force or cadence 14%, or combination of the two that adds up to 14%. If you left the Velotron in the same gear, you must have been running a lower cadence, correct?

Did you change your saddle position? You would normally want to keep the same leg extension, which would mean moving your saddle up and back ~25mm.

If anything, with the same gearing for the 175's, my cadence went up some. I did raise the seat some but since I probably did not have it at the "perfect" spot when I went to 200's years ago, ..

On the trainer I have not changed gearing. But in the race, I have my 50/34 11/32 gearing, which is as wide as I ever want it.

Makes since one would have to increase the force with the shorter cranks.

I do thank all the ideas. Is interesting no one person has posted yet who really has tried, or is using longer cranks. Still trying to find others who have had some of the same experiences but again,
I very very seldom see a "tall" person racing.

.

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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