Shrug Off Some Aero Drag

Mar 1, 15 11:07

Post #1 of 41 (14081 views)

For the past 3 years, we've been having a lot of fun in our velodrome installations with a little trick that so many of you also know. It's sort-of our "go-to" trick after all the regular stuff (position, helmets, suits, etc...) has been aero tested.

For those of you who don't know, or those of you who have never seen the data, I'd like to share the importance of shrugging to improving your speed.

Below are photos of position A (no shrug) and B (shrug). It's easy to see how shrugging works -- the frontal area of the rider is much smaller in the shrug photo than in the non-shrug photo. Because our Track Aero System gives us real-time lap-by-lap CdA, shown in the bar chart, below, we can track the impact of the shrug while riding. We do what we call "rolling A-B-A" testing, where we do 18 continuous laps on the track: 6 laps of A, 6 laps of B, and to 6 laps of A again.

The shrug cuts about 3-4% off a rider's CdA, easily. Sometime, it cuts off even more aero drag. The questions we always ask are:

Have we put the rider in a comfortable enough position to enable the shrug to happen?
Is the shrug sustainable for the race distance?

What's fun is that it's almost always worth investigating a whole family of bike positions which might allow shrugging to be sustainable. Fun, huh?

I just wanted to share this with you guys. Please feel free to ask questions, or provide comments!

AndyF
bike geek

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [AndyF] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 11:24

Post #2 of 41 (14052 views)

So far for this summers races I'm shaving my legs and adding in shrugging. Cool stuff coming from these types of tests.

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [AndyF] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 11:46

Post #3 of 41 (14012 views)

thanks for sharing the data. Out of curiosity, is shrugging similar to turtling? I get the impression that when i shrug, my shoulders actually get wider. i must be doing something wrong...

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [AndyF] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 11:50

Post #4 of 41 (14002 views)

This makes me ponder the efficacy of Kinesiology Tape in cycling as a bit of a bio feedback device while adjusting to the new position. I have applied K Tape as "reminder tape" for many athletes in various sports to help them with posture/positional ailments via the elastic properties of the tape never thought about using it with cyclists in this manner. Cool stuff thanks for sharing.

Dynamic Athlete ProgrammingVIP Endurance Racing | Like us on Facebook Get Your Training Plan Here

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [AndyF] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 11:55

Post #5 of 41 (13981 views)

Thanks Andy,

Have you observed handling differences between the two positions? Interested in especially 500m, kilo, and 2k race efforts.

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [AndyF] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 11:59

Post #6 of 41 (13972 views)

Would the shrugging not tire out the muscles in the upper back/neck? Or is it a result of adjusting the position so that the shrug is achieved without constricting muscles?

The tiring out of the muscles wouldn't matter so much in a TT, but in a tri where you have to run afterwards, it could be detrimental.

Group Eleven – Websites for Athletes / mikael.racing / @mstaer

Last edited by: Staer: Mar 1, 15 12:00

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [echappist] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 12:06

Post #7 of 41 (13950 views)

echappist wrote:

thanks for sharing the data. Out of curiosity, is shrugging similar to turtling? I get the impression that when i shrug, my shoulders actually get wider. i must be doing something wrong...

Everyone's different, and that's the key. We use different words for different people. "Tuck your head in", "shrug", "make like a turtle", and "get small" are just a few of the different instructions we give people. Not all of them work. It depends on the rider, the helmet, the position, etc...

There are actually 2 ways that turtling helps. First, it usually presents a smaller frontal area. But second, it can also remove the shoulder-helmet gaps, and actually improve your Cd. But, as with everything we do, you have to try it to be sure.

AndyF
bike geek

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [IREPathletics] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 12:08

Post #8 of 41 (13940 views)

IREPathletics wrote:

This makes me ponder the efficacy of Kinesiology Tape in cycling as a bit of a bio feedback device while adjusting to the new position. I have applied K Tape as "reminder tape" for many athletes in various sports to help them with posture/positional ailments via the elastic properties of the tape never thought about using it with cyclists in this manner. Cool stuff thanks for sharing.

Yup, heightened proprioception. One of the cool geeky bike things that we're keen to try is the Lazer head tilt sensor. Can't wait to see if it can help us control head position to get some aero benefit.

AndyF
bike geek

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [Staer] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 12:47

Post #9 of 41 (13846 views)

Staer wrote:

Would the shrugging not tire out the muscles in the upper back/neck? Or is it a result of adjusting the position so that the shrug is achieved without constricting muscles?

That's part of art of it. Sometimes you have to back down on the aggressiveness of the position to be able to promote a good, sustainable shrug.

Quote:

The tiring out of the muscles wouldn't matter so much in a TT, but in a tri where you have to run afterwards, it could be detrimental.

Yes, it needs to be tested and trained. But a little goes a long way.

AndyF
bike geek

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [IREPathletics] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 14:07

Post #10 of 41 (13709 views)

IREPathletics wrote:

This makes me ponder the efficacy of Kinesiology Tape in cycling as a bit of a bio feedback device while adjusting to the new position. I have applied K Tape as "reminder tape" for many athletes in various sports to help them with posture/positional ailments via the elastic properties of the tape never thought about using it with cyclists in this manner. Cool stuff thanks for sharing.

Two things;
1. I tried taping myself two years, ago for Master's Nationals, but it didn't work very well and I will be the first to admit that I have no idea what I am doing. It would be great to see what the proper placement would be.
2. I noticed that Rohan Dennis was pretty heavily taped for his hour record attempt. It looked to me that at least some of his tape job might have been to help him hold his head position. I can search for the link to the pictures if you are interested

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [Staer] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 14:10

Post #11 of 41 (13697 views)

Staer wrote:

Would the shrugging not tire out the muscles in the upper back/neck? Or is it a result of adjusting the position so that the shrug is achieved without constricting muscles?

The tiring out of the muscles wouldn't matter so much in a TT, but in a tri where you have to run afterwards, it could be detrimental.

One effective way IMHO to learn how to "shrug" and figure out a manner of doing so that isn't tiring is to bend your torso over in front of a mirror (a bathroom mirror works great because you can use the sink top area to rest your elbows) and then experiment with various arm and hand positions (especially hand height) relative to your torso to find a combination that allows a "relaxed" shrug. It's very easy to quickly try all sorts of elbows forward/ backward, elbows in/out, hands up/down combinations this way.

Mimic that position on your TT/Tri rig and you'll find that you'll naturally just "fall" into a relaxed shrug position.

That's what I did anyway...

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [Staer] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 14:33

Post #12 of 41 (13653 views)

Staer wrote:

Would the shrugging not tire out the muscles in the upper back/neck? Or is it a result of adjusting the position so that the shrug is achieved without constricting muscles?

The tiring out of the muscles wouldn't matter so much in a TT, but in a tri where you have to run afterwards, it could be detrimental.

The general trend in the "shrug laps" posted above seems to say so.

Steve

"If you ain't first, you're last." Reese Bobby Talladega Nights

Last edited by: The_Mickstar: Mar 1, 15 14:34

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [The_Mickstar] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 14:40

Post #13 of 41 (13640 views)

The_Mickstar wrote:

The general trend in the "shrug laps" posted above seems to say so.

Yes, I should have mentioned that: the shrug was performed with a very aggressive aero position so the rider couldn't sustain it. The shrug's aero benefits degrade after only 3 laps.

The example is there just to illustrate that there can be a great benefit to shrugging. It might be worth investing in.

AndyF
bike geek

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 14:57

Post #14 of 41 (13616 views)

An old Kraig Willet throwback suggestion to practice in front of the mirror but a good one. Another thing that can effect shrug comfort for me is hand width and position.

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [AndyF] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 15:02

Post #15 of 41 (13600 views)

Was it you who mentioned that�generally there is a better aero gain with a plus 15-20 degree up tilt on the hands vs elbows?

I have found that this is better for "shrugging" or getting your shoulders tight.

Do you think there is a connection (generally, yes I know every one is different)

Maurice

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 15:26

Post #16 of 41 (13561 views)

mauricemaher wrote:

Was it you who mentioned that�generally there is a better aero gain with a plus 15-20 degree up tilt on the hands vs elbows?

I may have mentioned that there is more stability. But, yes, a slight uptilt also cleans up the air flowing up front.

Quote:

I have found that this is better for "shrugging" or getting your shoulders tight.

Do you think there is a connection (generally, yes I know every one is different)

Maurice

Yup, totally. I like ski bends with slight uptilt on the forearms. Keeps you axially stable, and skeletally supported.

AndyF
bike geek

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [mauricemaher] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 15:26

Post #17 of 41 (13561 views)

^quasi Mantis position. Fickle position. Seems to work for some but not for others. When it works it can work very very well.

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [AndyF] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 15:54

Post #18 of 41 (13522 views)

Good info and thanks..

I did similar 3 seasons ago but mine was a povo version.. whilst on a trainer in the garage, facing some sliding doors, i noted my reflection, and over a number of weeks adjusted my position to minimize my frontal area... i ended up in almost an identical shrugged position as you did...

For me i had to add 20mm to the extension height to allow my functionality to remain, but provide enough relaxation to bring my shoulders up. This narrowed things almost exactly as per your images.. for me i can maintain it for 80-90% of an IM leg..

Re being comfortable etc.. i find it more comfortable as there is almost no tension in the shoulders.. i find i am almost hanging my chest / neck / head from my shoulders.. slung if you will.. *this is where raising the extensions helped here.. ) Also lower extensions forced me to extend my shoulders down and out to reach hence making me wider..... so a more "conservative" bar position can and in my case is faster..

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [AndyF] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 20:08

Post #19 of 41 (13355 views)

AndyF wrote:

For the past 3 years, we've been having a lot of fun in our velodrome installations with a little trick that so many of you also know. It's sort-of our "go-to" trick after all the regular stuff (position, helmets, suits, etc...) has been aero tested.

For those of you who don't know, or those of you who have never seen the data, I'd like to share the importance of shrugging to improving your speed.

Below are photos of position A (no shrug) and B (shrug). It's easy to see how shrugging works -- the frontal area of the rider is much smaller in the shrug photo than in the non-shrug photo. Because our Track Aero System gives us real-time lap-by-lap CdA, shown in the bar chart, below, we can track the impact of the shrug while riding. We do what we call "rolling A-B-A" testing, where we do 18 continuous laps on the track: 6 laps of A, 6 laps of B, and to 6 laps of A again.

The shrug cuts about 3-4% off a rider's CdA, easily. Sometime, it cuts off even more aero drag. The questions we always ask are:

Have we put the rider in a comfortable enough position to enable the shrug to happen?
Is the shrug sustainable for the race distance?

What's fun is that it's almost always worth investigating a whole family of bike positions which might allow shrugging to be sustainable. Fun, huh?

I just wanted to share this with you guys. Please feel free to ask questions, or provide comments!

I tunnel tested this a while back, it was worth ~10-14W for me. It's trainable too. The more you do this during training rides, the more easily you can do it in races. Barbell/dumbbell shrugs can help develop these muscles.

__________________________

I tweet!

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [ZackCapets] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 20:11

Post #20 of 41 (13352 views)

Holding your head low and your shoulders tight is mostly just a choice.

People will chose to train 20 hours a week
Bike racers will chose to risk life and limb to contest a field sprint properly.

Hold yourself small when you tt. At worst it is slightly annoying, at best it is fine, just effing do it.

10+ watts!

You know how hard it is to train yourself to make 10 more watts?

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 20:13

Post #21 of 41 (13349 views)

Yeah it was a big change, the biggest"free" change of the day. I kinda forgot about that but that's some juicy low-hanging fruit there...

__________________________

I tweet!

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [ZackCapets] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 20:18

Post #22 of 41 (13336 views)

ZackCapets wrote:

Yeah it was a big change, the biggest"free" change of the day. I kinda forgot about that but that's some juicy low-hanging fruit there...

Tony Martin and the successful hour record breakers of late are good inspiration for this.

It is hard to find a picture of Tony Martin since he has been world TT champ where his head isn't held perfectly and his shoulders aren't squeeze so tight that you wonder if he has had his collar bones shortened. He is like that for the *whole* tt

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

Mar 1, 15 23:36

Post #23 of 41 (13195 views)

A quick illustration of Jack's point. Almost 30% narrower...

BTW, I tried to hold the position for a few minutes, quite uncomfortable.

http://www.falcobike.com
https://www.facebook.com/falcobikeglobal
http://www.twitter.com/Falco_Bike
falcobike@gmail.com

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [ZackCapets] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 5:29

Post #24 of 41 (13021 views)

ZackCapets wrote:

Yeah it was a big change, the biggest"free" change of the day. I kinda forgot about that but that's some juicy low-hanging fruit there...

Well, that's why I posted this. However you do it -- using Aerolab for free, through our velodrome aero partners, or in a wind tunnel -- it's really worth testing which position, helmet, posture, and skin suit is best. It is the lowest hanging fruit available.

AndyF
bike geek

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [AndyF] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 6:30

Post #25 of 41 (12937 views)

This shouldn't be so hard for triathlete whom already should have good shoulder flexibility and strength from swimming. Swimming also helps your understand the need to get small and narrow.

I think one mistake that I see a lot is incorrect saddle angle. IF it's tilted downward in front, you end up using your shoulder muscles to push yourself back in the seat. This is often compensated by tilting bars up. But now all your done is create a wedge. That still means some of your weight is being pushed outward not downward. If you need your seat tilted down for comfort or can't roll your hip forward enough to properly rotate forward, then you might have the wrong saddle.

TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 6:37

Post #26 of 41 (5633 views)

motoguy128 wrote:

This shouldn't be so hard for triathlete whom already should have good shoulder flexibility and strength from swimming. Swimming also helps your understand the need to get small and narrow.

Ah, good point!

Quote:

I think one mistake that I see a lot is incorrect saddle angle. IF it's tilted downward in front, you end up using your shoulder muscles to push yourself back in the seat. This is often compensated by tilting bars up. But now all your done is create a wedge. That still means some of your weight is being pushed outward not downward. If you need your seat tilted down for comfort or can't roll your hip forward enough to properly rotate forward, then you might have the wrong saddle.

You're right, but I'd also be careful with that. There's an old taboo that you should never tilt your saddle forward. This has led to a lot of injury, particularly in women. The UCI allows 3 degrees forward tilt, and I think this is reasonable. As long as it's part of a complete fitting solution.

I'd agree with you that you should definitely try out a few saddles. The newest Cobb, ISM, and Adamo are certainly interesting.

AndyF
bike geek

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [AndyF] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 7:54

Post #27 of 41 (5582 views)

Awesome tip Andy!

Here is something we've found through our 4 trips testing people that helps to determine how good of a shrugger (did I invent a new term?) you are. While it hasn't worked for everyone it's working quite a bit

1. First off, it helps to have mobile (for lack of a better word) scapula. Some people have very square shoulders where others can round their shoulders rather easily. Some people are more gumby like and some people are more like a 2x4 through the shoulders. The more of a gumby you are the more likely this is to work.

2. Move your extensions & armpads (and therefore your elbows) forward a bit.

To find out if you're a good candidate to be a shrugger do this:
Put your bike in a trainer facing a mirror or better yet have someone handy with a camera.

get in the aero position. Try shrugging. Photo yourself from the sides/front. next move your extensions/elbow pads forward 1-2.5cm. Change nothing else. Get back in the aero position. shoot more photos. Compare. If you're a natural shrugger your scapula will follow that increased length and round around if that makes sense.

Doesn't work for everyone. I'd estimate that at least 75% of the people we test find it slightly to a lot more comfortable.

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [threefire] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 7:55

Post #28 of 41 (5578 views)

threefire wrote:

A quick illustration of Jack's point. Almost 30% narrower...

BTW, I tried to hold the position for a few minutes, quite uncomfortable.

Maybe the shrug is a reason for Martin's rise to dominance from 2009:

Professional Athlete: http://jordancheyne.wordpress.com/ http://www.strava.com/athletes/145340

Coaching Services:http://www.peakformcoaching.com/

Last edited by: Jordano: Mar 2, 15 7:56

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [AndyF] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 8:02

Post #29 of 41 (5567 views)

I'm on a Cobb JOF now because it allowed me to rotate forward, seem to fit me well and over a few months last year I made small adjustments to angle until I found a compromise between comfort and being more "neutral" in my shoulders. Just a degree made a pretty remarkable change on a ride over 4 hours. WHereas I'd consistently have fatigue in my shoulders, after that change 5+ hours without issue and I noticed on bumpy roads I wasn't constantly scooting back in the seat.

Because of the way the Cobb seat compresses and flexes, when static (no rider on it) you actually have a upward tilt in the nose of the saddle. Cobb includes specific instructions for this. It also depends where you sit on the saddle. I noticed for example more tri pros are on the tip of their saddles, but interestingly, Daniela Ryf, breaks that trend and sit pretty far back, farther back than I do when climbing uphill sitting up.

TrainingBible Coaching
http://www.trainingbible.com

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 9:26

Post #30 of 41 (5485 views)

In addition to extending the reach so that your upper arm and torso angle are beyond 90 degrees, I've found it also helps to have a lot of drop. This basically forces you to narrow your shoulders, making them "reach" for the pads to keep your thigh- torso angle from getting too extreme. I don't know if I'm unusual in this respect, but I can vary the height of my upper back more than 10cm easily by changing how my shoulders are held. My shoulders are naturally pretty wide, but I can pull them in a lot. Pulling them in also raises my back, which is why I need to have a lot of drop to keep it low.

A side view of Martin when his crank is at full height illustrates this well. It also shows the turtle. Turtling is not the same as shrugging... it's extending your neck *downward* and then tilting your head up just enough to peer through your eyebrows.

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 9:35

Post #31 of 41 (5472 views)

Tried this at the A2 wind tunnel recently and it shaved off 18 grams of drag. Biggest improvement over anything else we tested (helmets, wheels, etc)

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [AndyF] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 10:00

Post #32 of 41 (5438 views)

When I've tunnel tested it's always been interesting to me the trade-offs you make (and most don't even know it). For example, a big one for me was that when I narrowed up my arm pads I gained quite a bit, yet it made the shrug significantly more difficult. So widening the arm pads was a "loss" in terms of tunnel aero by a few grams but it allowed that position to be significantly more sustainable.

This position I couldn't hold for more than maybe 2-3 minutes even though it was SIGNIFICANTLY faster than the non "shrug" position

Whereas this I can hold for quite a lot more than that, so it effectively is more aero even though it didn't test absolutely to be more aero.

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [James Haycraft] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 10:14

Post #33 of 41 (5413 views)

James makes a really killer point about the tunnel. I cannot tell you how many tunnel tests I've seen (even with some of the top athletes in the world) where the focus was on getting that ultimate low number..only to find that the athlete couldn't hold it for long, or abandoned the position in a few weeks, or in some cases, ends up causing some other shoulder or head/neck movement which induces some penalty.

I love this about the Alphamantis testing, you can put the athlete out there and make them ride laps and watch the data drift (or not)...whereas in the tunnel it is so easy to have the athlete do it for a 30 second data point and then extrapolate the drag savings to 40k or whatever.. great stuff here guys.
Josh

http://www.SILCA.cc
Check out my podcast, inside stories from more than 20 years of product and tech innovation from inside the Pro Peloton and Pro Triathlon worlds!
http://www.marginalgainspodcast.cc

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 10:28

Post #34 of 41 (5382 views)

(To add to your excellent list)

3.) Rotate your extensions up a little bit to semi-mantis. Tends to stabilize the over-reach by bringing the elbow back to a ~90 degree angle and puts more weight directly into the elbow pad than needing to "hold" yourself in that position.

The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [motoguy128] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 10:38

Post #35 of 41 (5360 views)

I actually do a bit of this while swimming as well - trying to keep shoulders up and near your ears. Makes for faster lap times due to reduction in frontal drag. Never hear about it in swim talk, though.

----------------------------------------------------------
Zen and the Art of Triathlon. Strava Workout Log
Interviews with Chris McCormack, Helle Frederikson, Angela Naeth, and many more.
http://www.zentriathlon.com

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [desert dude] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 10:39

Post #36 of 41 (5358 views)

desert dude wrote:

1. First off, it helps to have mobile (for lack of a better word) scapula. Some people have very square shoulders where others can round their shoulders rather easily. Some people are more gumby like and some people are more like a 2x4 through the shoulders. The more of a gumby you are the more likely this is to work.

2. Move your extensions & armpads (and therefore your elbows) forward a bit.

My n=1 has been exactly that. Moved my pads forward (upper arms no longer vertical) and the shrug "just happened". Comfortable for hours, the helmet mated better with my back, and narrower. Win x3.

ZONE3 - We Last Longer

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [tessartype] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 10:45

Post #37 of 41 (5347 views)

My best season of TTs and duathlons I also move the reach up a bit forward of 'normal' and tried really hard to hold my head like this the whole time. It was not at all physically uncomfortable to do so, just has to be something you focus on the whole TT.

Not wind tunnel tested but I performed drastically better than the season previous:

2013 "faster" position

2012 "slower" position

Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [rruff] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 11:37

Post #38 of 41 (5289 views)

rruff wrote:

In addition to extending the reach so that your upper arm and torso angle are beyond 90 degrees, I've found it also helps to have a lot of drop. This basically forces you to narrow your shoulders, making them "reach" for the pads to keep your thigh- torso angle from getting too extreme. I don't know if I'm unusual in this respect, but I can vary the height of my upper back more than 10cm easily by changing how my shoulders are held. My shoulders are naturally pretty wide, but I can pull them in a lot. Pulling them in also raises my back, which is why I need to have a lot of drop to keep it low.

+1 on this. A pure "shrug" does little for me but by increasing my pad reach I'm able to round my chest quite a bit... it's almost like I'm trying to get both shoulders to touch my chin... and this reduces my frontal area pretty dramatically vs the conventional upper arms @90 degrees fit.

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 11:37

Post #39 of 41 (5289 views)

Similarly, another Old (top) Vs. New (bottom), main difference is more reach and less stack to improve shrugging:

Looking at it now, it looks like I'm pretty upright in the second photo as well. Looks like some more experimenting is in order.

ZONE3 - We Last Longer

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [jackmott] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 11:38

Post #40 of 41 (5289 views)

jackmott wrote:

My best season of TTs and duathlons I also move the reach up a bit forward of 'normal' and tried really hard to hold my head like this the whole time. It was not at all physically uncomfortable to do so, just has to be something you focus on the whole TT.

Not wind tunnel tested but I performed drastically better than the season previous:

2013 "faster" position

2012 "slower" position

I'm not sure what you look like from a frontal perspective but there's a pretty radical change in your head position (much lower).

Re: Shrug Off Some Aero Drag [GreenPlease] [ In reply to ]

Mar 2, 15 11:44

Post #41 of 41 (5277 views)

Yea it would be, it's easy to have a head position like that when you're testing. Real world head positions are often quite different. I'm sure Jack is good at keeping it pretty close to that, but there's no way it's like that more than slightly-most of the time.

Our Partners

transition-DOT-area-AT-slowtwitch-DOT-com

Advertise with us

©1999-2024 Slowtwitch, Inc., and Slowtwitch.com
Reproduction of material from any Slowtwitch.com page
without written permission is strictly prohibited.