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The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops
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They're all the rage. As well they should be - there are significant time savings to be had, as well as UV protection and the ability to keep you cooler. I'm pretty sure we've done more testing with sleeved tri suits than anyone in the world at this point. Every aero test we conduct prioritizes position first, and then clothing. Here's the rub, I think for many athletes the suits are not working as intended for one very specific reason: fit. Paul Harder from Trek coined the phrase, "Skin is slow." This simple sentence is very true, but the problem is this...wrinkles are worse.

If these new suits do not fit correctly, they're likely slowing you down. Fit is the single most important factor which determines if a sleeved suit will provide benefit or loss. A properly fit top/suit needs to be tight; it needs to wrap you like a second skin. If it wrinkles while in your aero position, you've just slowed yourself down. I think, at this point, it's important to convey this clearly to all of you because there's very little knowledge in the retail world about the suits and, to be quite honest, not much more knowledge from many of the manufacturers who make them.

This presents a problem for consumers. How do you know of one of these suits will work for you? Well, without actually testing them, you don't; however, since not everyone can aero test, you need to try them on before buying them. Simulate the aero position or, better yet, bring your bike and drop into aero. Are there wrinkles (there will always be a wrinkle or two, but there shouldn't be much)? If so, no matter how much you like the suit, it likely isn't going to work.

Secondary to fit is materials used (I consider the suit's pattern part of the fit). Material is important, to be sure, but you could literally go buy yourself some lycra from a local store, have a suit sewn up to custom fit you, and it will be faster (possibly faster than most anything else).

As far as I can tell, there's really only two ways to help guarantee a sleeved suit will be faster. 1. Make multiple sizes of each size for different body types. You won't see this happen because retailers simply can't/won't carry that many sku's. 2. Custom make the suit to each individual athlete. Only Bioracer is doing this, I believe (at least with any type of consistency), and the price is pretty crazy. Funny thing is, there's a way to do it quite easily for a lot less, it's just no one has figured it out yet. It's right there in front of everyone, they just don't see it.

Okay, I felt I needed to get that information out there. Nothing that hasn't already been stated, but after Kona I'm sure there will be renewed interest. Oh, and just to get it out of the way:
  1. Pealr Izumi Tri Octane seem to still be King of the Mountain...if it fits.
  2. The 2015 Castelli T1 Stealth top is really, really good...if it fits.

Questions?

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Hey Jim,
As you know, some other suits test better on some riders, me for example. One of the things I found since you, Andy and I tested suits is that the suits test differently after the swim, and after being worn a few times, so lots of work has to go into suit testing and selection. One suit that tested well for a few weeks went to hell after a few months. The best thing anyone can do is test with you, or at a wind tunnel.
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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I think I need to trademark "Skin is slow, wrinkles are slower."
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [DamonHenry] [ In reply to ]
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DamonHenry wrote:
Hey Jim,
As you know, some other suits test better on some riders, me for example. One of the things I found since you, Andy and I tested suits is that the suits test differently after the swim, and after being worn a few times, so lots of work has to go into suit testing and selection. One suit that tested well for a few weeks went to hell after a few months. The best thing anyone can do is test with you, or at a wind tunnel.

Yep, I think a very important point to make about these suits is they're race suits; they're not for everyday training. In fact, they're probably only good for a dozen uses at best (I'm probably being generous). Just like cycling skin suits, they'll stretch, and both the fit and fabric lose their effectiveness. This makes it tough for us to keep them on hand for testing. Unless a manufacturer wants to keep supplying us with suits, we can't test the same suits over and over again and expect them to perform.

Testing the suits wet is something we plan to do in the very near future.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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So essentially, if the suit is painted-on snug throughout, with just a wrinkle or two around the armpit (around where my skin would also show a fold) - it's probably a fast suit?

In your experience, where does the CS Apex speedsuit slot into the hierarchy, and were there any differences between front and rear zips?

ZONE3 - We Last Longer
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Nice post.

What goodies does PI have for 2015?
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
Funny thing is, there's a way to do it quite easily for a lot less, it's just no one has figured it out yet. It's right there in front of everyone, they just don't see it.

Tell me more :-)

(P.S. Some skinsuit manufacturers will do "split sizing", e.g. small cut top, medium cut bottom...aka "Tyrannosaurus Rex Cut" ;-)...on custom team kits. I know Voler does this, for example).

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
Funny thing is, there's a way to do it quite easily for a lot less, it's just no one has figured it out yet. It's right there in front of everyone, they just don't see it.


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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [tessartype] [ In reply to ]
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tessartype wrote:
So essentially, if the suit is painted-on snug throughout, with just a wrinkle or two around the armpit (around where my skin would also show a fold) - it's probably a fast suit?

In your experience, where does the CS Apex speedsuit slot into the hierarchy, and were there any differences between front and rear zips?


Yep, painted on.

Funny you mention Champ Sys. Of course, many know the Apex was born out of our testing with Luke McKenzie last year, and it's a good suit...if it fits. However, I suspected another piece of kit they make would be even an better tri suit, and our testing of that piece has proven that to be correct. Now the fact that this piece tests faster is no big surprise. The surprising thing is, and I admit I never saw this coming, this particular suit, while tighter fitting, is actually far more comfortable than the Apex! Every single athlete, and I mean every one, puts it on and, despite not being a tri-specific piece of clothing, they boldly claim they want to use the suit due to its comfort and range of motion. I can't say much more than that, but don't be surprised to see a new suit announced very soon in time for next season. My guess is that suit will be right up there with the best of them.

As far as the front vs rear zip. Both our testing and Specialized's has shown that the rear zip "tails" are aero neutral, and I wonder if it wouldn't be easier to slip on a rear zip suit coming out of the water.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
Last edited by: Jim@EROsports: Oct 15, 14 8:13
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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I'm glad I already own both the Pearl Izumi Octane and the Castelli T1 Stealth!

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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I worked in the triathlon wetsuit business for a number of years. I agree with everything you said here. It all comes down to fit - and that right/perfect fit is probably going to be more uncomfortable to the average triathlete.

In the wetsuit business, most triathletes, left up to their own devices tend to buy a wetsuit that is too big for them or ill-fitting in some way, because they are looking for ultimate comfort. Comfort, is important, and not to be thrown out completely, but it it needs to be balanced with performance.

If you want to see the extreme of this in the bad way, just stand on the side of the road at about the 70 mile mark of the bike, of any big Ironman and watch the back half of the race ride by. You'll see hundreds of people who've spent a considerable amount of money on an full on aero TT/tri bike and they are riding it for lengthy periods ( or almost exclusively), sitting up right and riding it like they would ride a road bike!


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
tessartype wrote:
So essentially, if the suit is painted-on snug throughout, with just a wrinkle or two around the armpit (around where my skin would also show a fold) - it's probably a fast suit?

In your experience, where does the CS Apex speedsuit slot into the hierarchy, and were there any differences between front and rear zips?


Yep, painted on.

Funny you mention Champ Sys. Of course, many know the Apex was born out of our testing with Luke McKenzie last year, and it's a good suit...if it fits. However, I suspected another piece of kit they make would be even an better tri suit, and our testing of that piece has proven that to be correct. Now the fact that this piece tests faster is no big surprise. The surprising thing is, and I admit I never saw this coming, this particular suit, while tighter fitting, is actually far more comfortable than the Apex! Every single athlete, and I mean every one, puts it on and, despite not being a tri-specific piece of clothing, they boldly claim they want to use the suit due to its comfort and range of motion. I can't say much more than that, but don't be surprised to see a new suit announced very soon in time for next season. My guess is that suit will be right up there with the best of them.

As far as the front vs rear zip. Both our testing and Specialized's has shown that the rear zip "tails" are aero neutral, and I wonder if it wouldn't be easier to slip on a rear zip suit coming out of the water.

Short or long-sleeved Speedsuit?

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Tom A.] [ In reply to ]
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Tom A. wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
Funny thing is, there's a way to do it quite easily for a lot less, it's just no one has figured it out yet. It's right there in front of everyone, they just don't see it.


Tell me more :-)

(P.S. Some skinsuit manufacturers will do "split sizing", e.g. small cut top, medium cut bottom...aka "Tyrannosaurus Rex Cut" ;-)...on custom team kits. I know Voler does this, for example).

(Please note the below is not typed in a mean-spirited way - don't want it to come off as nasty)

Oh no...I'm done giving away free advice. Discovering a possible new suit for Champ-Sys (posted above) is the last free thing I'm going to do. I think many would be very surprised at how little money we've (ERO & Alphamantis) been paid for our ideas. Mostly, and this is on me not the manufacturers, we've simply given the ideas away and not seen one dime from our work.

Honestly, Tom, the past few weeks I've needed to evaluate what I should be doing with all the knowledge I've gained over the past 18 months. Should I hire myself out for consulting to whomever needs it? Should I just pick one manufacturer and work with them? Or should I simply do what many have approached me to do - build an ERO line of clothing custom made to each athlete! :-)

Split sizing is okay but, seriously, there's a way to do it that will put a manufacturer so far out in front of everyone else it will make it difficult for anyone to match. And, it's not born out of some new, expensive, technology, it's easy. Would it be as cheap as the suits now? No, but it wouldn't approach the $1800 you pay to Bioracer for one of their suits either. It's there for the taking - someone just needs to step up.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Have you been able to notice the performance difference by where the wrinkles are located?

For instance - I just ordered the T1 Stealth. my chest/ arm sizing points me to a large (actually between L & XL), but my waist is more of a medium. (Damn swimmer's build). Are wrinkles on the more exposed areas, arms, upper back and chest more detrimental than wrinkles near the waist or vice versa?

Thoughts on being an Urban Triathlete
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [TeamBarenaked] [ In reply to ]
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TeamBarenaked wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:
Funny thing is, there's a way to do it quite easily for a lot less, it's just no one has figured it out yet. It's right there in front of everyone, they just don't see it.


This reminds of the time John Cobb and I were giving a presentation to a tri club. John is very funny in front of a group if you've never had the chance to hear him speak. He was talking about clothing for women, and specifically about the low-cut tri tops women use. I believe he said something like, "Now you know these low cut tri tops you ladies like to use that tend to let us boys get a good visual while you're in aero? Well, they're good for me, but bad for you!"

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [urbantriathlete] [ In reply to ]
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urbantriathlete wrote:
Have you been able to notice the performance difference by where the wrinkles are located?

For instance - I just ordered the T1 Stealth. my chest/ arm sizing points me to a large (actually between L & XL), but my waist is more of a medium. (Damn swimmer's build). Are wrinkles on the more exposed areas, arms, upper back and chest more detrimental than wrinkles near the waist or vice versa?

It's always first and foremost about what you're presenting to the wind. Big arms and shoulders fill these suits out better, and so tend to provide greater aero benefit. Since big arms and shoulders are a significant detriment to CdA, that's a nice win. On the other hand, you don't want that thing flapping around in the wind behind you either. That's an easy fix, though...a good seamstress could take it in around the waist without effecting the suits range of motion in the arms and shoulders.

By the way, the original T1 Stealth was good, but the 2015 suit has been changed a bit, and it's REALLY good! Not sure if it's available yet. They provided some for testing a few clients last month.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Interesting. From this link http://lavamagazine.com/...elli-rotor-for-2015/

My 2014 T1 Stealth looks exactly the same. It's a full zip as well. I'm curious as to what they apparently changed

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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Pattern and material placement. We tested on two athletes, both of whom wear a medium. One is significantly taller and thinner than the other, and for him it simply didn't test as well. It wasn't bad, just not as good as it was for the shorter, but more muscular athlete. Again - fit is most important.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks - it's great to hear. I ordered the full zip product on their website, not sure if that's 2015 or 2014.

Also - any chance you have plans to open an East Coast branch for testing? There's a big market in the northeast that can't easily make it to a wind tunnel!

Thoughts on being an Urban Triathlete
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [BryanD] [ In reply to ]
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Same here, my T1 Stealth (purchased from wiggle in August of 2014) appears identical from the front at least.
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [urbantriathlete] [ In reply to ]
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urbantriathlete wrote:
Thanks - it's great to hear. I ordered the full zip product on their website, not sure if that's 2015 or 2014.

Also - any chance you have plans to open an East Coast branch for testing? There's a big market in the northeast that can't easily make it to a wind tunnel!

Pretty sure Alphamantis will have something set up at the new velodrome in Milton (outside of Toronto) when it opens sometime around January.

If the velodrome in Pittsburgh gets built, my guess is you'll see it there, too, but not from ERO. I'm too busy as is - having the morning off to post on here has been fun, but doesn't happen too often.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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I wore the Castelli T1 and really liked it. Wore it in 2 other races as well. The difference in Kona is that you need to put it on AFTER you swim which presents some problems with your body being wet and trying to put on a fabric that stretches. It took a few miles on the Queen K to dry out and for me to adjust it. The other 2 races I did in it allowed me to wear it under my wetsuit...much more ideal.

Any suggestions on how to get them on quicker, and better, in T1? Anyone?

Great post by the way.
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Bogusdogs] [ In reply to ]
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Bogusdogs wrote:
Any suggestions on how to get them on quicker, and better, in T1? Anyone?
At Masters swim meets they sometimes have at the end of the day a wet t-shirt relay where each team of four has to share one t-shirt, removing it from one person to the next. From my observations (never participated), the best way to put it on is from inside out, hands through first and then peel it down over your head and body. So I might suggest you wet the shirt and place it in a ziplock bag in your T1 bag. Probably best to have a helper.

Proud member of FISHTWITCH: doing a bit more than fish exercise now.
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Good:




Not so good:


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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [LOW2000] [ In reply to ]
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Don't know if this is a very good comparison. One rider is on the base bar and the other (Cav) is in the aero position. Based on that, the guy in white, though maybe less wrinkles, is FAR less aero than Cav with a few wrinkles. I guess I am wondering where, if any, wrinkles will appear when the guy gets into his aero position.

Cool pics though.
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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chaparral wrote:
I think I need to trademark "Skin is slow, wrinkles are slower."

you might start a plastic surgery rage...

Interesting that I feel faster without sleeves, but it's just probably b/c I feel cooler and can push harder. perception, maybe.
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
Pattern and material placement. We tested on two athletes, both of whom wear a medium. One is significantly taller and thinner than the other, and for him it simply didn't test as well. It wasn't bad, just not as good as it was for the shorter, but more muscular athlete. Again - fit is most important.

Do you see more size options coming in the future, as it's obviously important? I wear a MT wetsuit, but that's not really a tri suit option.
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [chris948] [ In reply to ]
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More like swimmer build vs sickly racing weight triathlete build.
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [LOW2000] [ In reply to ]
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LOW2000 wrote:
Good:




Not so good:


Here's TO from 2013. He tested the top in the tunnel, and it was significantly faster, but is looks like it has tons or wrinkles for him.



Crowie and Luke look better, but still not wrinkle-free. I wonder at what lever of wrinkles the top actually detracts (esp. since putting something on in T1 won't be a clean as having all day to fit a skinsuit before testing or a TT).



ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Titanflexr] [ In reply to ]
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Titanflexr wrote:
Here's TO from 2013. He tested the top in the tunnel, and it was significantly faster, but is looks like it has tons or wrinkles for him.


Where did you hear/read about TO testing the top? I never heard anything about him in a wind tunnel... ever. Not that it hasn't happened, just that I've read/seen nothing about him specifically.

Also, even though Luke, TO, Crowie, etc tested the products and they tested faster doesn't mean they had the same wrinkles during testing. They likely didn't have wrinkles but considering they were frantically putting their tops on out of the swim in Kona, they then got the wrinkles. Plus, I've seen pictures of Luke testing his top in the velodrome where he got his results... he had no (or hardly any) wrinkles.
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Bogusdogs] [ In reply to ]
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Bogusdogs wrote:
I wore the Castelli T1 and really liked it. Wore it in 2 other races as well. The difference in Kona is that you need to put it on AFTER you swim which presents some problems with your body being wet and trying to put on a fabric that stretches. It took a few miles on the Queen K to dry out and for me to adjust it. The other 2 races I did in it allowed me to wear it under my wetsuit...much more ideal.

Any suggestions on how to get them on quicker, and better, in T1? Anyone?

I volunteered in the transition tent in Kona this year, and a number of athletes had problems getting their tops on in T1. This was not so much of an issue with the full zip Castelli tops, but it definitely took some time for the guys who were wearing suits like the PI one rolled down around their waists during the swim. There were several guys that I saw who wasted a good deal of time wrestling their way into those suits. I guess it's just a question of how much time you save with the suit vs. the time it costs to pull it on. Of course, I also saw many guys who forgot to take their swimskins off until they'd already put their bike shoes on or, for quite a few guys, until they were on their way out of the tent.

Then, there were several other guys, including a few pros, that either forgot to take the long-sleeve shirt off in T2 or took their long-sleeve shirt off and then grabbed the wrong shirt on the way out the door (as was discussed in another thread). There was also at least one pro who intended to change out of the suit in T2, but forgot to pack running shorts in her run bag. She did the marathon with the top of the suit rolled down around her waist. So, if you're planning on wearing sleeves just for the bike leg, there's two times that you can lose time in transition in a non-wetsuit race.
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [BrentwoodTriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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BrentwoodTriGuy wrote:
Titanflexr wrote:

Here's TO from 2013. He tested the top in the tunnel, and it was significantly faster, but is looks like it has tons or wrinkles for him.



Where did you hear/read about TO testing the top? I never heard anything about him in a wind tunnel... ever. Not that it hasn't happened, just that I've read/seen nothing about him specifically.

Also, even though Luke, TO, Crowie, etc tested the products and they tested faster doesn't mean they had the same wrinkles during testing. They likely didn't have wrinkles but considering they were frantically putting their tops on out of the swim in Kona, they then got the wrinkles. Plus, I've seen pictures of Luke testing his top in the velodrome where he got his results... he had no (or hardly any) wrinkles.

My bad. TO went to the wind tunnel, but that was in 2011 (not '13). Castelli did wind tunnel testing on the top, but not with TO.

ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Bogusdogs] [ In reply to ]
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Bogusdogs wrote:
Don't know if this is a very good comparison. One rider is on the base bar and the other (Cav) is in the aero position. Based on that, the guy in white, though maybe less wrinkles, is FAR less aero than Cav with a few wrinkles. I guess I am wondering where, if any, wrinkles will appear when the guy gets into his aero position.

Cool pics though.

Yea...who is that guy in the white and what does he know about a time trial anyway? Clearly not much... /pink

_____________________________________________________
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Bogusdogs] [ In reply to ]
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Bogusdogs wrote:
Don't know if this is a very good comparison. One rider is on the base bar and the other (Cav) is in the aero position. Based on that, the guy in white, though maybe less wrinkles, is FAR less aero than Cav with a few wrinkles. I guess I am wondering where, if any, wrinkles will appear when the guy gets into his aero position.

Cool pics though.

The guy in the white is wearing a custom-made speedsuit that has a retail cost of well over $1000. So, I'm betting that he has very few wrinkles in the aero position.
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [craigj532] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
I guess it's just a question of how much time you save with the suit vs. the time it costs to pull it on

From the numbers I've seen during the AeroCamps I run, if it takes you 3 minutes to put it on the majority of people will still be ahead.

Brian Stover USAT LII
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Very cool to hear you will be in Toronto next year!!

I've been following your approach + testing results on ST for a while but was always too far away to even think about getting some testing done. Anyway...I doubt I'd be able to justify the cost of testing next year...but if you need any volunteers for set-up, etc...I wouldnt mind helping out for a day or two. It will give me a chance to observe the testing and benefits first hand. Please keep me in mind if this is something you may find useful.

...and thanks for the free advice on clothing!

Duathlete by choice?
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
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And I'm sure there are several of us that would love to have you back at the Carson Velodrome.
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [BrentwoodTriGuy] [ In reply to ]
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BrentwoodTriGuy wrote:
Titanflexr wrote:

Here's TO from 2013. He tested the top in the tunnel, and it was significantly faster, but is looks like it has tons or wrinkles for him.



Where did you hear/read about TO testing the top? I never heard anything about him in a wind tunnel... ever. Not that it hasn't happened, just that I've read/seen nothing about him specifically.

Also, even though Luke, TO, Crowie, etc tested the products and they tested faster doesn't mean they had the same wrinkles during testing. They likely didn't have wrinkles but considering they were frantically putting their tops on out of the swim in Kona, they then got the wrinkles. Plus, I've seen pictures of Luke testing his top in the velodrome where he got his results... he had no (or hardly any) wrinkles.


He was also in the LSWT tunnel in 2012 as a part of the Mavic event that introduced the CXR80 wheelset. http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...post=4098851#4098851

http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/
Last edited by: Tom A.: Oct 15, 14 20:49
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
tessartype wrote:
So essentially, if the suit is painted-on snug throughout, with just a wrinkle or two around the armpit (around where my skin would also show a fold) - it's probably a fast suit?

In your experience, where does the CS Apex speedsuit slot into the hierarchy, and were there any differences between front and rear zips?


Yep, painted on.

Funny you mention Champ Sys. Of course, many know the Apex was born out of our testing with Luke McKenzie last year, and it's a good suit...if it fits. However, I suspected another piece of kit they make would be even an better tri suit, and our testing of that piece has proven that to be correct. Now the fact that this piece tests faster is no big surprise. The surprising thing is, and I admit I never saw this coming, this particular suit, while tighter fitting, is actually far more comfortable than the Apex! Every single athlete, and I mean every one, puts it on and, despite not being a tri-specific piece of clothing, they boldly claim they want to use the suit due to its comfort and range of motion. I can't say much more than that, but don't be surprised to see a new suit announced very soon in time for next season. My guess is that suit will be right up there with the best of them.

As far as the front vs rear zip. Both our testing and Specialized's has shown that the rear zip "tails" are aero neutral, and I wonder if it wouldn't be easier to slip on a rear zip suit coming out of the water.

I hope is a cycling-specific piece, because while their tri line fits me perfectly, the sleeves on their higher-end cycling kit is disappointing ( for a very tall and skinny athlete - 140lbs on a 6"2 frame). My team uses Champ Sys, so there's always a way to justify a purchase.

ZONE3 - We Last Longer
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:

(Please note the below is not typed in a mean-spirited way - don't want it to come off as nasty)

Oh no...I'm done giving away free advice. Discovering a possible new suit for Champ-Sys (posted above) is the last free thing I'm going to do. I think many would be very surprised at how little money we've (ERO & Alphamantis) been paid for our ideas. Mostly, and this is on me not the manufacturers, we've simply given the ideas away and not seen one dime from our work.

Honestly, Tom, the past few weeks I've needed to evaluate what I should be doing with all the knowledge I've gained over the past 18 months.

First, I'm happy that you've shared what you've shared. Thanks for that. Second, knowledge is cool, ain't it?
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [chaparral] [ In reply to ]
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chaparral wrote:
I think I need to trademark "Skin is slow, wrinkles are slower."

"Wrinkly skin is the slowest"
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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RChung wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:


(Please note the below is not typed in a mean-spirited way - don't want it to come off as nasty)

Oh no...I'm done giving away free advice. Discovering a possible new suit for Champ-Sys (posted above) is the last free thing I'm going to do. I think many would be very surprised at how little money we've (ERO & Alphamantis) been paid for our ideas. Mostly, and this is on me not the manufacturers, we've simply given the ideas away and not seen one dime from our work.

Honestly, Tom, the past few weeks I've needed to evaluate what I should be doing with all the knowledge I've gained over the past 18 months.


First, I'm happy that you've shared what you've shared. Thanks for that. Second, knowledge is cool, ain't it?

I've been dumbfounded how much Jim has shared. Think of all the helmets and suits born out of the Alphamantis experiments.
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [DamonHenry] [ In reply to ]
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DamonHenry wrote:
RChung wrote:
Jim@EROsports wrote:


(Please note the below is not typed in a mean-spirited way - don't want it to come off as nasty)

Oh no...I'm done giving away free advice. Discovering a possible new suit for Champ-Sys (posted above) is the last free thing I'm going to do. I think many would be very surprised at how little money we've (ERO & Alphamantis) been paid for our ideas. Mostly, and this is on me not the manufacturers, we've simply given the ideas away and not seen one dime from our work.

Honestly, Tom, the past few weeks I've needed to evaluate what I should be doing with all the knowledge I've gained over the past 18 months.


First, I'm happy that you've shared what you've shared. Thanks for that. Second, knowledge is cool, ain't it?


I've been dumbfounded how much Jim has shared. Think of all the helmets and suits born out of the Alphamantis experiments.


Sharing the knowledge is some of the most fun I have; I'm learning right along with everyone else (and I have a plan to share much more!). We've certainly had companies tell us that virtually every time we post about their product, their sales numbers go up. We do understand we have that sort of impact. I'm pretty sure you could get a PI Tri Octane pretty cheap on one of the clearance web sites until we started posting about it's effectiveness, the Castelli T1 Stealth came from our testing with Leanda Cave and her desire for a two-piece tri suit (or at least sped up the project), we all know where the Champ-Sys Apex came from, and I along with everyone else discovered how good LG is at making fast helmets over the past 15 months. We don't expect anyone to kiss our collective arses for any of this, we just want to continue moving the needle and help people go faster.

A couple of points for everyone:
  1. While there are some good suits out there, I don't think any one has hit it out of the park yet. There's plenty of room for improvement.
  2. When looking at how clothing fits, we need to understand/remember that your bike position will have a significant effect. If you take a good look at the Triathlete mag pic, you'll notice Macca's elbows are narrower than the others. Certainly this would lead to more wrinkling at the shoulders and hurt the performance of the suit (it also pulls the sleeve up towards the shoulders causing wrinkles on the arm). This doesn't mean that narrow elbows are a bad thing, it just means you need to understand your position will alter the suit's fit. Just trying it on standing up is not enough; bring your bike with you if you're going to try one on and make sure it fits in aero.


Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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You're correct about the Octane, that I didn't ever post about due to the non-disclosure agreement, which is how we got so many competitors to work together. PI customized that first Octane for me, and added a longer zipper, which PI now incorporates into production. Sales took off. Kiwami, another of the wardrobe products tested finally had their new sleeved suit at Kona this year. You noted some of Champ-Sys' developments. Not only LG, but three or four helmets evolved after those tests. Then, there were the bikes too. Notable are some of the variables we tested that never got public data exposure, thus still offer opportunities for significant gains. As Robert wrote (I think quoting Bevis or Butthead) "knowledge is cool" and sometimes more than cool.
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim,
Any thoughts on the compressport tops, I have one, it fits very well but the material on both the front and the back is not smooth, its very rippled, presumeably for cooling. This surely would be very very bad for aerodynamics.


Running analysis based in Leeds UK.
http://www.trimechanics.co.uk

https://www.facebook.com/trimechanics
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [LOW2000] [ In reply to ]
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LOW2000 wrote:
And I'm sure there are several of us that would love to have you back at the Carson Velodrome.

We are already on the schedule for an AeroCamp there on Jan 28 and March 1. Would love to have you out.



Heath Dotson
HD Coaching:Website |Twitter: 140 Characters or Less|Facebook:Follow us on Facebook
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Any chance you could expand on your point you mention about 'patterning' is this material texture.
The T1 stealth seems to have a textured material on the back, would this improve aerodynamics in terms of helping the air stick?
The compressport one I have is very textured to say the least, not sure if this is a good thing!
Last edited by: Marcell_S: Oct 21, 14 1:21
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Any thoughts on how throwing water all over the suit/tops like in Kona would affect their performance?
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Marcell_S] [ In reply to ]
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Marcell_S wrote:
Any chance you could expand on your point you mention about 'patterning' is this material texture.
The T1 stealth seems to have a textured material on the back, would this improve aerodynamics in terms of helping the air stick?
The compressport one I have is very textured to say the least, not sure if this is a good thing!

I'm going to "attempt" to keep this short - we'll see if I succeed. Just know this explanation will be simplified a great deal.

Just to be clear on nomenclature: the pattern is the actual cut, or shape of the panels, on an article of clothing. Where the panels are placed can have a large impact on how a piece of clothing fits and feels, and the fit, as discussed, will have an effect on air flow around the clothing. Texture is how a piece of fabric is woven, and a particular piece of fabric's texture can be altered depending on the weave pattern. Texture can also be added by a process known as flocking. Material texture can also have a significant impact on air flow around an article of clothing.

Typically, utilizing textured material in a performance piece of clothing like a tri suit is an attempt to create air turbulence. This might seem counter-intuitive, as turbulent air causes more drag over a surface than a nice, laminar, flow, but really what the manufacturer is doing is choosing between the lesser of two evils. Between the two types of drag: friction and pressure, pressure drag is by far the worst. When air separates from an object, pressure drag is created. However, if you can delay the separation of the air from an object, pressure drag is reduced and that object moves through the air more freely. As it turns out, turbulent air, while causing more friction drag, delays the separation of air from an object and, therefore, reduces the amount of pressure drag. This is commonly known as "tripping the boundary layer" and is best illustrated by the dimples on a golf ball.

If you're still with me on this, let me add to the equation that an article of clothing's pattern can also act as a Boundary Layer Trip, mostly due to the placement of seams connecting the patterns which form the piece of clothing.

The question some are trying to solve is: What is the best combination of pattern and textured material for delaying separation of air from an article of clothing on an athlete's body? Answer this, and you'll have a fast piece of clothing. Castelli is pretty darn good at it, and the placement of seams and specific textured materials on the T1 in specific places is their attempt to reduce pressure drag while allowing for a piece that fits properly with adequate comfort and range of motion (the fit being very important).

Hopefully that all makes sense. It's probably an article I should just write to provide a better explanation, but time always seems so short.

By the way, this then begs the question...If creating turbulence is a good thing, and texture creates turbulence, don't wrinkles simply create turbulence too? Why are they bad, but texture is not? :-)

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you Jim, that is really interesting. I saw Marcells post above and with the same top I was wondering the same thing.

I have gone back and put my compressport top on and it's pretty wrinkly!

Another quick question if you don't mind. This seems to be an area of aerodynamics that doesn't seem to have a standard as such. i.e. there is no way of looking at something and saying that is more aero than anything else.
If I was to get the castelli top, is it likely the difference between that and the compressport one would be detectable in aero testing on the road using aerolab? I know it probably depends on the difference, but if Castelli are claiming 3 minutes in an ironman over their own tri-suit that likely dictates a significant difference could be found.


Running analysis based in Leeds UK.
http://www.trimechanics.co.uk

https://www.facebook.com/trimechanics
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Tri-Mechanics] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, you should be able to tease out the differences with field testing, no problem.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Really straightforward explanation, thanks Jim. I assumed the wrinkles were in the wrong direction, if you could get it to wrinkle vertically that might be better..

I sometimes wondered - how difficult to make a truly bespoke bit of DIY boundary layer trip tailoring. Put on your tight fitting smooth sleeved top, get in aero. Buddy draws a line down your biceps at the leading edge. Attach something, say a thin strip of dimpled bar tape, or sew a rough seam along that line.

Craziness?

Obviously have to prove the concept in the tunnel, or at alphamantis..! ;-)

Nice picture to help visualize what Jim is saying about pressure drag. High pressure in front of the ball, low pressure behind.


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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
By the way, this then begs the question...If creating turbulence is a good thing, and texture creates turbulence, don't wrinkles simply create turbulence too? Why are they bad, but texture is not? :-)

Well if you can grow wrinkles in the right locations...

Since you guys seem to have such success with the LG helmet, perhaps you can comment on something that always has bothered me about their helmets. Why have dimples and a fairing?
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [fierceSun] [ In reply to ]
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Anyone know if PI improved the zipper on the Octane? I had one an the zipper came off the track the 2nd time I wore it and wouldn't go back on. Luckily the place I bought it from took it back and gave me a credit so I bought something else. Loved the suit except for that one deal killer problem!
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
Marcell_S wrote:
Any chance you could expand on your point you mention about 'patterning' is this material texture.
The T1 stealth seems to have a textured material on the back, would this improve aerodynamics in terms of helping the air stick?
The compressport one I have is very textured to say the least, not sure if this is a good thing!


I'm going to "attempt" to keep this short - we'll see if I succeed. Just know this explanation will be simplified a great deal.

Just to be clear on nomenclature: the pattern is the actual cut, or shape of the panels, on an article of clothing. Where the panels are placed can have a large impact on how a piece of clothing fits and feels, and the fit, as discussed, will have an effect on air flow around the clothing. Texture is how a piece of fabric is woven, and a particular piece of fabric's texture can be altered depending on the weave pattern. Texture can also be added by a process known as flocking. Material texture can also have a significant impact on air flow around an article of clothing.

Typically, utilizing textured material in a performance piece of clothing like a tri suit is an attempt to create air turbulence. This might seem counter-intuitive, as turbulent air causes more drag over a surface than a nice, laminar, flow, but really what the manufacturer is doing is choosing between the lesser of two evils. Between the two types of drag: friction and pressure, pressure drag is by far the worst. When air separates from an object, pressure drag is created. However, if you can delay the separation of the air from an object, pressure drag is reduced and that object moves through the air more freely. As it turns out, turbulent air, while causing more friction drag, delays the separation of air from an object and, therefore, reduces the amount of pressure drag. This is commonly known as "tripping the boundary layer" and is best illustrated by the dimples on a golf ball.

If you're still with me on this, let me add to the equation that an article of clothing's pattern can also act as a Boundary Layer Trip, mostly due to the placement of seams connecting the patterns which form the piece of clothing.

The question some are trying to solve is: What is the best combination of pattern and textured material for delaying separation of air from an article of clothing on an athlete's body? Answer this, and you'll have a fast piece of clothing. Castelli is pretty darn good at it, and the placement of seams and specific textured materials on the T1 in specific places is their attempt to reduce pressure drag while allowing for a piece that fits properly with adequate comfort and range of motion (the fit being very important).

Hopefully that all makes sense. It's probably an article I should just write to provide a better explanation, but time always seems so short.

By the way, this then begs the question...If creating turbulence is a good thing, and texture creates turbulence, don't wrinkles simply create turbulence too? Why are they bad, but texture is not? :-)

Seems like a modular approach would be a way to go with this. Same thing that is done with DeSoto wetsuits; and with testing bits and pieces of bikes in the tunnel. Break it down to sleeves; top bottom and then mix and match them to fit each individual in terms of length; seam areas; size; texture; trip lines; etc. This would allow the testing to possibly go faster, and provide a nice way to market it as well, as you can substitute out one part for another base on the race and conditions being raced in (everything from warm to cold weather). Might this be one of the things which is in plain sight? Just my first thought after reading through your posts. Thanks.

Stephen J

I believe my local reality has been violated.
____________________________________________
Happiness = Results / (Expectations)^2
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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I like carefully positioned trip strips in predictable areas such as thighs, hips and arms/shoulders. Textures are better on the back as optimal positioning of a trip strip will be dependent on aggressiveness of the position.

____________________________________
Pain is inevitable. Suffering is up to you.
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Runorama] [ In reply to ]
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I believe this was attempted by the British track team in the development of their skin suits.

Michael hutchinson talks about it in his book 'faster'

He also mentions trying to recreate them himself with tape stuck on!


Running analysis based in Leeds UK.
http://www.trimechanics.co.uk

https://www.facebook.com/trimechanics
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Tri-Mechanics] [ In reply to ]
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It's nothing new. I used to be a downhill ski racer. Spyder integrated trip strips into their skin suits in the early 90s. It reduced drag so much it was banned.

____________________________________
Pain is inevitable. Suffering is up to you.
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Hello Jim and All,

Wrinkles ...

That is why tailors and seamstresses were invented.

It is fairly inexpensive to have your (athletic) clothes tailored .... as often as stretch and the dreaded wrinkles occur.

Holes can be patched ..... the garment is an evolutionary project ....



You certainly would have your riding clothes tailored at Savile Row on a wooden horse.

Next we will see stationary bicycles and a guy or gal with a mouthful of pins at bike shops.

While at the tailor it is a good time to add that special hidden pocket for weapons, or that full length zipper that zips on the diagonal, and so on.


Cheers,

Neal

+ 1 mph Faster
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [nealhe] [ In reply to ]
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Quite a few have had their tri speed suits tailored, but the results have been mixed. The main complaint is that the range of motion of the suit is restricted. Better to have it custom made from the start.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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I think these wrinkles went pretty well ;)
Last edited by: Bogusdogs: Oct 22, 14 8:40
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Thanka again for your input Jim.

I have just got one of the castelli tops. It fits very nicely over the chest and shoulders, tight but not too constrictive.
However when I go into aero position I get ripple and wrinkles on the waist due to the zipp.

Looking at the sizing the size I have is the right chest size but larger than I am in the waist and hips. But the only size I can change to is 2 sizes down. I don't know whether this would fit me in the chest, or if the material would stretch.

Any other T1 users have this issue?


Running analysis based in Leeds UK.
http://www.trimechanics.co.uk

https://www.facebook.com/trimechanics
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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is what we're saying here actually that the chance of getting it right is so small, that you're almost certainly going to be going slower with a mass produced sleeved tri-suit over sticking with a sleeveless tri-suit and bare skin?

sounds like the variables on the age of material, how wet it is after the swim (or if raining), how wet it is from sweating (fabrics perform differently when moist/ wet), wrinkles, seams, pattern/ direction of thread on the material, wind direction, wind angle, humidity, whether the wind has been disrupted blowing through a hedgerow, whether it's smooth air, how the aerodynamics of the suit are interacting with the aerodynamics of the bike, body shape of the rider.... need to be so specifically fine tuned that you're unlikely to actually realise the potential theoretical aero advantage that is possible in controlled testing? especially that most of these variables will change over and over during a race.

i think most of these also apply to most aero 'gains' you can get from equipment. if you actually added up all the extra benefit you were supposed have gotten from all these aero parts you should have theoretically taken off a hugely unrealistic amount of time from your tt times.

the reality is that it's not possible for something to work in all the conditions that come up during a race, interact with all the other complex aerodynamics of other parts and work for every different body type.

after a reasonable baseline of aerodynamics everything else must surely be either not working as intended and at best having zero benefit or worse slowing you down.

still didn't stop me buying those lovely firecrests this year though......

Feel the Speed
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Bogusdogs] [ In reply to ]
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That's actually fitting pretty well. I really liked how the Orca suits were fitting both SK and Starky. You can't get rid of wrinkles altogether, but too many and you'll go slower.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Westover] [ In reply to ]
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Westover wrote:
is what we're saying here actually that the chance of getting it right is so small, that you're almost certainly going to be going slower with a mass produced sleeved tri-suit over sticking with a sleeveless tri-suit and bare skin?

sounds like the variables on the age of material, how wet it is after the swim (or if raining), how wet it is from sweating (fabrics perform differently when moist/ wet), wrinkles, seams, pattern/ direction of thread on the material, wind direction, wind angle, humidity, whether the wind has been disrupted blowing through a hedgerow, whether it's smooth air, how the aerodynamics of the suit are interacting with the aerodynamics of the bike, body shape of the rider.... need to be so specifically fine tuned that you're unlikely to actually realise the potential theoretical aero advantage that is possible in controlled testing? especially that most of these variables will change over and over during a race.

i think most of these also apply to most aero 'gains' you can get from equipment. if you actually added up all the extra benefit you were supposed have gotten from all these aero parts you should have theoretically taken off a hugely unrealistic amount of time from your tt times.

the reality is that it's not possible for something to work in all the conditions that come up during a race, interact with all the other complex aerodynamics of other parts and work for every different body type.

after a reasonable baseline of aerodynamics everything else must surely be either not working as intended and at best having zero benefit or worse slowing you down.

still didn't stop me buying those lovely firecrests this year though......

I think the only way you can guarantee a suit is faster is to have it custom made, or aero test several to see which is better for you. Other than that, it's an "eye test" to hopefully guess which fits better. Of course, we can't dismiss the materials used as they're important, too, it's just fit comes first.

About aero testing, I think perhaps we've failed to properly explain what Alphamantis' system does since this comes up fairly often. You see, it is measuring the aero/time/power differences as they happen...as you ride. We're seeing the actual changes in real time, and our clients are seeing the differences when they race. We're not saying, "This is how much time you should have saved." We're sating, "This is how much time you did save."

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Westover] [ In reply to ]
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To further follow up on Jim's last post (hi Jim) when companies measure product x they are doing it in a vacuum of sorts. They are just measuring product X.
When you race you've got product X,Y, Z, A & B on your bike (say brake, aero frame, wheels, aero helmet & say skin suit or top tube storage or your choice)

Yes if you tested all these independently of each other you'd get 1+1+1+1+1=5. But when you test all of them together it's a system and you may get 1+1+1+1+1 = 3.5

Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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If you look at the Seb picture a few posts above you can see his chest area is littered with wrinkles. I assume this is almost impossible to avoid in triathlon as you have to be able to swim and run in the suit (of course it could simply be unzipped for running). I know in my Tri Octane I have wrinkles in the chest, but without that "extra fabric" there during the bike there's no way it would fit correctly during the swim and run. The suit is already a bit "short" for me for running.

24 Hour World TT Champs-American record holder
Fat Bike Worlds - Race Director
Insta: chris.s.apex
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Tri-Mechanics] [ In reply to ]
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I had the same issue. I ordered an XL due to my chest size. It was so big and wrinkled on me when in the aero position. I sized down to a Large and it works perfectly. It's a little tight but since the material stretches it fits perfectly

Make Inside Out Sports your next online tri shop! http://www.insideoutsports.com/
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Re: The most important thing about sleeved tri suits/tops [Jim@EROsports] [ In reply to ]
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Jim@EROsports wrote:
Funny you mention Champ Sys.....

Jim, is the Apex Summer Short Sleeve Skin Suit or the Short Sleeve Speed Suit the CS item that's faster than the Apex Tri Suit?

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