Would we need to have some sort of qualification to ensure that people actually know HOW to draft? Assuming this catches on with the typical age-grouper that is.

good question. i'm thinking not. unless you want to get into some more hoity toity class, such as you want to be an elite, or some kind of elite junior, or pre-elite, or some such thing.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

1. no
2. no, you don't want someone drafting on the aerobars and you don't want to have to enforce the rule
3. what ever you want
4. yes
5. yes, 5 laps for Olympic distance
6. no
7. no, road bikes only
8. what is 1.3.073?

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''Sweeney - you can both crush your AG *and* cruise in dead last!! 😂 '' Murphy's Law

"what is 1.3.073?"

saddle nose 5cm behind the BB. except for morphological exceptions given one at a time. which is not going to happen in triathlon, that is, we're not going to train up commissaires in triathlon to grant MEs. so, everybody gets to race his bike. except, what if i get second, and you win, and i file a protest against you? then i'll win the protest. so we need to not honor that stupid rule. the very fact that there are no aero bars precludes someone from moving too far forward on a road bike. if we also get rid of shorty clip ons for DL racing in the AGs. which we probably also ought to do.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

btw, you said "no" to this:

1. can you draft off somebody not in your "race"?

this is the way it is in bike racing. but this is going to be a tough in tri, because everybody starts at once in bike racing, that is, all discrete races start at once. but in tri the swim first spreads out and intermingles the age groups and sexes. so it's much harder to identify each discrete pack, as is the case in cycling. this is going to be tough to enforce.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Couple thoughts,


Start them off male/female like the elite amateur waves. Have them compete by gender, no age breakdowns. That way, no worry about who you're drafting off of other than gender. You could always parse it out by AG for awards post race. Unless the bike course is more than three loops, you shouldn't run into too much trouble with lapping? Make wearing a bib on the bike mandatory toward the back and color code them so those in the non-draft race cannot latch onto a group on the second/third lap without sticking out to marshals.

-I should mention that this may only work if you have 20-25 people looking to compete in this format at each race. That way you can have a draft legal and non-draft legal race going on at the same time-

Wouldn't you need to mandate a closed road course if you had a draft event? Many of the races I do only partially closed their courses with volunteers/police at intersections.

Yes, I think you'll need to limit it to road bikes only, which means some kind of separate racking area in transition for supervision purposes.

I honestly don't understand why people have an issue with this. Ride whatever wheel you want. Bridge whatever gap you can. What am I missing?

As for bike rules, if I were dictator of this series, I'd use UCI road rules where possible. That would certainly be my guide for wheel depth, so 60mm as I understand (someone said Flos wouldn't work though?). And I'd just do away with clip-ons as well. Bikes look better as real tri bikes or real road bikes.

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The point is, ladies and gentleman, that speed, for lack of a better word, is good. Speed is right, Speed works. Speed clarifies, cuts through, and captures the essence of the evolutionary spirit.

My god, would anyone really show up to a draft legal tri and draft with 50-60 AGers with no idea of skill or qualifications? Will there at least be a cat system where people have to in essence prove up their skills before jumping in with the big boys?

In road bike racing, one is started off in a lower category until he/she demonstrates:

1) Strong ability and high finishes to earn upgrade points for moving up categories; or
2) Enough mass-race starts to show competency and at least move out of the lowest category.

Will there be a system like this for draft-legal racing?

When I moved states and had no USAC license, I started in the lowest category and worked my arse off to move up...for safety. If I'm going to show up for a draft-legal triathlon, I want assurance that the other racers with me are competent pack riders--as I'm sure they will want the same from me.

Then should we have this same requirement you know how to swim, and swim in open water?

..

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

One (the?) major difference is OW experience (generally) only affects the swimmer.

Drafting experience potentially takes out the entire peloton.

Interesting when you first posted what the ITU said, there was no change for bike rules. Now they way there is.
And the USAT has not position yet.

So, yep, lots more questions, very few answers.

I am not surprised how few have voted outright no DL race. Lots have been asking for this for a long time on ST, but a few vocal ones just shout them down. Well, I guess
DL is here now, we just need to understand what it all means.

I sure did not want to have to buy a road bike. :o(

I wonder how this would impact USAT rankings? Nationals qualification? TeamUSA stuff.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

1. This is why multi loop with multiple waves is a bad idea. Just creates too many unfair scenarios. BUT how if you say you cant draft, how to do regulate it? Is it 5 foot draft box you cant enter?

2. Shorty bars to the brake levers is current standard, stick with that. "Aerobars" are pretty pointless in DL racing, you don't want to be tucked on your p5 with 30 other people riding wheels.

3. 90mm deep enough?

4. AG should not have lap out rule. They also shouldn't do races where over 50% of the field can get lapped out. Bike loops need to be 10k per lap. That's roughly ~15 mins of racing, if you suck that bad, not sure what to tell you other than DL isn't for you if you want to "compete".

5. For AG race, it needs to be a 2 lap max bike course. 4-6 bike course loops creates too many issues if your going to have 600 people on the course at one time.

6. I don't think you have to "pass" anything, but have some respect for your fellow athlete. Of course that means you have to make them do stuff or else they'll say "well it's my right to race if I want to".

7. Is it wrong to just require traditional geometry and handlebars and that's it? Do we want the people with hybrids to do DL racing? Is that what we want to happen with DL? Is the goal to open it up to everyone and anyone, or can we agree some standards of equipment are required?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

We have no idea the answers to these questions, and we will not decide. I just do not see them making things more complicated. You talked about other NF's already doing DL races. So, what have their rules been?
And answers to your questions they are doing?

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I honestly don't understand why people have an issue with this. Ride whatever wheel you want. Bridge whatever gap you can. What am I missing?

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Competitive fairness. Let's say it's a 3 lap bike course, and the 40-49 AG is coming out of the swim and the U30 guys are already on the bike. U30 guys come through lap 1 and start of lap 2 just as the lead swimmer of 40 AG guy gets on bike. He jumps on the wheel of the U30 guys, and uses that advantage while 2nd place guy in 40AG is stuck doing the work on his own (he couldn't get on a group).

I've seen this happen at a DL race this spring, and it really causes competitive issues. Now if you don't really care, and it's truly a "free for all", you wont care, you'll tell the 2nd place 40AG to suck it up, he should have swam faster or been more lucky.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

"In road bike racing, one is started off in a lower category until he/she demonstrates:"

in another galaxy, far far away, i was a lowly CAT 3 cyclist. nevertheless, a CAT 3. but USA Cycling has long forgotten that now and when i show up at a race i buy a 1-day license and i can race 55-59 or whatever age category that fits my age. so, in this sense, i don't see that it's different in tri than it now is in cycling.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Yep, the second place guy needs to learn how to swim faster.

.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Or get lucky. If you think that's a fair setup, I'll just simply disagree.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Good Lord, I'm glad I'm pretty much done with competitive tri... I see so many close calls in non-DL tri (usually with passes, and lapping really slow riders), I just can't imagine a bunch of people whose closest brush with pack riding is watching the Tour on TV getting mixed up in a tri. Aero bars? No thanks. I've seen enough carnage on training rides to last the rest of my life.

A cat system is a good idea. No clue how it would be administrated, especially when "results" have to include swim and run.

As a RD, I can't imagine the headache of putting on multiple starts. There's a junior tri in Monroe (nationals qualifier), but they only do 4 starts, and it's basically a super-sprint for the younger set. Need to have closed roads... Even a rolling closure wouldn't work.

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Some are born to move the world to live their fantasies...

https://triomultisport.com/
http://www.mjolnircycles.com/

I finally have seen the light from Dan. The only way AG DL works is a 1 lap bike course, assuming we want 500 to show up at the race and it not take 14 hours to run 10 different races. Or shall I say, the only way it keeps it fair/less headaches. But then your mom and dad and gma miss seeing you 5 times on the bike, and that's really become an exciting part of DL racing.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

We can find many "unfair" things in our races today. I just race with what is given and am happy to just be there.
If one does not like a race setup, just do not do it.
.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

This may still be true at amateur national/regional championships (my second 'cross race EVER was at the National Championships for 35-39!) although I think that there's a minimum category requirement to be able to race, but I just raced a USAC stage race in the Cat 3 category and like the peace of mind it gives me that I can trust cyclists around me.

Bottom line for me if I were to race an AG draft-legal tri is to take some of the bike hours and move them over to swim hours in training-get to the pointy end of the race and stay away from trouble.

If ''you race'' is you wave or age group, I'd say draft whoever you want. If the second place guy in AG40-45 doesn't catch the passing wave, I say tell him to swim faster.

________
I have to laugh that the 2nd best guy in an AG is told to "swim faster" as to the justification to why the guy who beats him by 6s and was able to by sheer luck of time jump on another waves wheels and he didn't. The stupidity in that logic makes no sense to me. ETA: I feel like we are dumbing down DL racing just to get the masses involved?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com