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Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything.

 

 


Rappstar

Jun 11, 14 17:13

Post #1 of 120 (9112 views)
Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. Quote | Reply

EDIT #4 - LINK TO EXCEL DATA




Back in the Specialized Win(d) Tunnel again today.

Primary focus was clothing testing. We also did some helmet testing.

Most tests were two runs at 0deg and then two tests at 10deg. For helmets only we did a few tests at 20deg.

Clothing:
- Kiwami Rio Amphibian back-zip ITU tri suit
- Kiwami Spider ITU back-zip tri suit
- Kiwam Spider 2-piece front-zip long distance top & bottom
- Fusion SpeedTop 3/4-length top
- Fusion SpeedSuit short sleeve skinsuit
- Pearl Izumi PRO Octane short sleeve skinsuit (custom tailored in sleeves to fit me)

Helmets:
- Specialized S-Works TT (unreleased) CE edition. There is *ALSO* a CPSC version which tests virtually identical, but I tested the CE version as it VERY slightly faster and - for me - a bit more comfortable.
- Specialized S-Works TT with MEDIUM visor (there is also a small and a large visor; testing doesn't show a measurable aero difference between visors; the size is a reflection of how tall the visor is)
- Specialized McLaren
- Specialized Evade (high yaw)

Happy to share all the data and to answer questions as best as we can. Unlike the post-Ironman AMA threads, I'm still in full training, so my reply may be more delayed than "normal." Mark has free time, but he also works. So bear with us if an answer is not forthcoming as quickly as possible.

Basic summary:
-Pearl Izumi speedsuit was substantially faster than the other suits tested (multiple Kiwami suits & Fusion suit). Worked out to about 6w at 45kph. As a reference, that's more than the difference between a rear disc vs rear 808. This was by far the biggest discovery of the day.

- Two piece Kiwami kit with front zip was only very slightly slower than one piece back zip. Both back zip kits were equally fast (or slow... though they were both pretty good, overall, if you look at what my CdA is).

- Fusion long sleeve top was slower when worn over a Kiwami sleeveless suit. We did not test wearing it a bare chest. It was SLIGHTLY faster at 0deg yaw but then slower (by more than it was faster) at 10deg.

- Fusion sleeved kit was faster than sleeved top but slower than either Kiwami suit and even VERY slightly slower than the two-piece Kiwami kit.

-New S-Works TT was very close to the current S-Works + McLaren TT - within 1 watt at 45 kph.

-Was faster with glasses (Smith Pivlock V2 Max) than the face shield on you.

-Was faster at all yaw points than the Evade

- No difference at very high yaw among helmets (20deg). Some athletes saw the Evade become much faster at 20deg, which is relevant for a high crosswind course (e.g. Kona).

I'll try to get the data up in a spreadsheet on drop box along with some pictures.

Thanks again to Chris & Mark! And, of course, to Specialized for creating this awesome resource.

Edit #1 - Also tested DeSoto arm coolers. No penalty. MAYBE slightly faster, but negligible if so. This with sleeveless suit.

Edit #2 - Some subjective thoughts. I wanted to post these because I think it's easy to conflate aerodynamics with "overall." The fastest - aerodynamically-speaking - suit is not necessarily the best. It's also not necessarily not the best. I just want to make sure that folks appreciate that fit, comfort, and even how you feel about the way something looks are all important. I'm going to post the exact data, but the BIGGEST delta we saw was <10w at 45kph. That works out to say 2-3min over an Ironman. That's a lot. But it's also not very much.

I want to emphasize - in part because I have personal relationships with the folks at both companies - that the Fusion and Kiwami outfits are both AWESOME. And the people behind these products are even more awesome. That's not a dig at Pearl. The folks there are great too. But I really just don't want this to be a "the Pearl suit is great and everything else is shit" thread. Because that's absolutely not the case.

The Fusion suit is REALLY easy to pull on, even when wet. I was able to pull it off, go #2, and pull it back on during the run in IMTX losing - at most - 60 seconds. The Pearl suit - and this is certainly PARTLY the tailoring of the sleeves, since I was done aftermarket - is really tight. If I had to #2 in the Pearl suit, I would be going in the suit. It takes me about 15seconds to put on the Fusion suit. The Pearl suit - in part because of the sleeves, but also because the fabric is less elastic and also because the zipper is not as deep - takes a lot longer to put on. And I can't imagine taking it off during a race. As Mat said, they are changing the cut to address this, but it's definitely an issue.

I've also not swam with the Pearl suit. The Fusion suit is great to swim in. No restrictions of any kind. That may be the same with the Pearl suit, but I need to test it. And thinking about that as well is important for anyone making a decision about clothing. It's not just a bike race (despite what we all may wish...).

I've also not run in the Pearl suit. The Fusion suit is great to run in as well. The Pearl may be as well, but again, this is something everyone needs to evaluate for themselves. Honestly.

Would I recommend the Fusion suit? Without question. It doesn't - versus the suits that I tested - offer an aerodynamic advantage. But it's also not really any slower. To the extent that it's "slower" than the Kiwami suits, it's like 1w @ 45kph.

There's also the sun-protection factor of sleeved suits to consider. Not getting sunburned can be a pretty big deal, especially if you are out there for 12, 14, 16 hours...

On the Kiwami side, these suits are very similar to the suits I wore happily for two years as a sponsored athlete ('08 & '09). I won two Ironmans in Kiwami Amphibian suits, and the Zoot suit I raced in the past three years was largely informed by the Kiwami suit. These are also great suits. The fabric is really light, it holds almost no water, it dries super fast, it wicks super well, and it's just very comfortable. It's not very stretchy - which is a factor for some - but I happen to like that, as it also doesn't "bag."

While this thread is all about aerodynamics, it's important that people don't ONLY consider aerodynamics when making a choice about something as important as clothing. You also need to swim and run. You might need to go to the bathroom. And the suit needs to fit well for 5, 6, 8 hours on the bike too.

The Pearl suit is a great suit. And it's very aero. But the Fusion suit is also a great suit; and it's also very aero; just not quite as aero as the Pearl suit. The Kiwami suits are also great.

Everything I tested I would absolutely use in a race. To the extent that aerodynamics are a factor, I'm happy to have more information. But I also recognize there are lots of other factors, and I hope you do as well.

Pearl, Kiwami, or Fusion. You really cannot go wrong with any of them. And there are even more other great options from even more other good companies. That much I'm even more certain of after time in the tunnel.

Lastly, a special thank you to Mads, Chance, and the team at Fusion for making me such great looking kits. They are awesome.

And thanks to Andre and Craig at Kiwami for their great looking kits.

These are ALL companies worth supporting. It's MOST important to me that that message not be lost...


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | Facebook - Rappstar Racing | @rappstar | WTC Ironman Pro Ambassador

Ask me about: Specialized | Compex 20% OFF - RAPPSTAR20 | Zipp | 1st Endurance | Normatec 10% OFF - RAPP2013 | Quarq | SRAM | ZICO | Smith Optics


(This post was edited by Rappstar on Jun 12, 14 8:48)


Herbert

Jun 11, 14 17:20

Post #2 of 120 (9050 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Do you think the Pearl Izumi kit worked especially well on you?


Fleck

Jun 11, 14 17:22

Post #3 of 120 (9044 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

(custom tailored in sleeves to fit me)

For those who have no muscles! :)

I hear you brother. Us ectomorphs need to stick together!

Great data. Thanks JR!

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog


Rappstar

Jun 11, 14 17:24

Post #4 of 120 (9028 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Herbert] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Herbert wrote:
Do you think the Pearl Izumi kit worked especially well on you?

Yes and no.

The general policy is not to share data. Mark can't share, for example, Jesse's data unless Jesse does it.

I will say that, for what it's worth, Mark tested a lot of suits himself. And he is ALSO wearing that same suit.

The suit is fast. That's for sure. But ERO has found people for whom it is slower. So it's not fast for everyone. But, iF IT FITS YOU RIGHT, it seems like it blows everything else away. For now...


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | Facebook - Rappstar Racing | @rappstar | WTC Ironman Pro Ambassador

Ask me about: Specialized | Compex 20% OFF - RAPPSTAR20 | Zipp | 1st Endurance | Normatec 10% OFF - RAPP2013 | Quarq | SRAM | ZICO | Smith Optics


Lphc4L

Jun 11, 14 17:32

Post #5 of 120 (8973 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Do you think the tailoring is what makes it fast? Or is it the fabric?


Macho Grande

Jun 11, 14 17:38

Post #6 of 120 (8943 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Jordan:


Can you elaborate on the Evade and the high yaw?

Also do you carry anything in your back pockets during a race and if so, were the suits tested with objects in the pockets?

Thanks,

Bob



"If you have a dream, pursue it as hard as you can. The world needs more of that." - Jordan Rapp


GreenPlease

Jun 11, 14 17:40

Post #7 of 120 (8931 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

The Specialized TT helmet.... TT2, TT3, other? Any links to a pic?


Rappstar

Jun 11, 14 17:42

Post #8 of 120 (8920 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Also tested DeSoto arm coolers. No penalty. MAYBE slightly faster, but negligible if so. This with sleeveless suit.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | Facebook - Rappstar Racing | @rappstar | WTC Ironman Pro Ambassador

Ask me about: Specialized | Compex 20% OFF - RAPPSTAR20 | Zipp | 1st Endurance | Normatec 10% OFF - RAPP2013 | Quarq | SRAM | ZICO | Smith Optics


Rappstar

Jun 11, 14 17:43

Post #9 of 120 (8914 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Lphc4L] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Both. Also location of seams and paneling. Based on other tests they've done.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | Facebook - Rappstar Racing | @rappstar | WTC Ironman Pro Ambassador

Ask me about: Specialized | Compex 20% OFF - RAPPSTAR20 | Zipp | 1st Endurance | Normatec 10% OFF - RAPP2013 | Quarq | SRAM | ZICO | Smith Optics


Rappstar

Jun 11, 14 17:44

Post #10 of 120 (8903 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [GreenPlease] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Looks virtually identical to mclaren. Is a new helmet. Name is just s-works TT.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | Facebook - Rappstar Racing | @rappstar | WTC Ironman Pro Ambassador

Ask me about: Specialized | Compex 20% OFF - RAPPSTAR20 | Zipp | 1st Endurance | Normatec 10% OFF - RAPP2013 | Quarq | SRAM | ZICO | Smith Optics


Rappstar

Jun 11, 14 17:46

Post #11 of 120 (8891 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Macho Grande] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Nothing in pockets during race. So no testing with items in pocket.

For some athletes, no tail helmets are much faster at high yaw. Starky for example. Why he wore the Giro air attack in Kona. Not the case for me.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | Facebook - Rappstar Racing | @rappstar | WTC Ironman Pro Ambassador

Ask me about: Specialized | Compex 20% OFF - RAPPSTAR20 | Zipp | 1st Endurance | Normatec 10% OFF - RAPP2013 | Quarq | SRAM | ZICO | Smith Optics


rrheisler

Jun 11, 14 17:51

Post #12 of 120 (8860 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Jordan--

We are of a similar build, and we've talked extensively before about different sizing/positioning on board our respective Shivs. I too am wearing the Octane this year and finding it significantly faster than any other apparel option.

Couple of questions:

1.) What, between the CE and the CPSC versions of the S-Works TT, do you think makes the CE more comfortable for you?
2.) How'd you wind up getting the logoing done on the Octane? I ask as I've landed a couple for myself and a.) want to keep wearing the suit and b.) don't want to f it up in the process.
3.) Any thoughts behind the sunglasses being faster than the visor?

Gracias, good sir.
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Thomas Gerlach

Jun 11, 14 17:54

Post #13 of 120 (8849 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Rappstar wrote:
Nothing in pockets during race. So no testing with items in pocket.

For some athletes, no tail helmets are much faster at high yaw. Starky for example. Why he wore the Giro air attack in Kona. Not the case for me.

Is there something specific that makes it work on Starky, or is just impossible to tell without going into the tunnel to test?

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craigj532

Jun 11, 14 17:57

Post #14 of 120 (8837 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Easy question - what size PI Octane did you wear?


dongustav

Jun 11, 14 18:29

Post #15 of 120 (8673 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thanks for doing this, this is the stuff that makes you valuable to sponsors. Can't wait to read more.

<pink>Now can you get specialized to make some of this stuff available to us slowtwitchers? We are pointy-end market influencers! I've got $20k worth of s-works bikes in my stable, but I can't get my hands on their good stuff (no luck on color-dipped shoes, no luck on getting a new evade from my dealer even!!) Get me into an Sworks TT helmet for IM Maryland and I'll show that baby 5 hours of a good time! </pink>


Mat Steinmetz

Jun 11, 14 18:57

Post #16 of 120 (8552 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Lphc4L] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Quote:
Do you think the tailoring is what makes it fast? Or is it the fabric?
I think it all matters. I raced in a custom made octane at St. G http://instagram.com/p/noTDqWpggg/
Pearl is in the process of revamping this suit to improve the fit...neck, legs, pockets. Dirk Bockel wore the suit in Melbourne.

Mat Steinmetz

51-SPEEDSHOP.com - instagram - @matsteinmetz - facebook

(This post was edited by Mat Steinmetz on Jun 11, 14 18:58)


denali2001

Jun 11, 14 19:10

Post #17 of 120 (8520 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

will the new helmet available in the US (ie CPSC approved)? Doh! I obviously didn't do well in reading comprehension... missed your comments in first post re: CPSC so no need to reply!


(This post was edited by denali2001 on Jun 11, 14 19:12)


dongustav

Jun 11, 14 19:22

Post #18 of 120 (8485 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Mat Steinmetz] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Mat is the octane better than the Stealth top?


bufit323

Jun 11, 14 20:03

Post #19 of 120 (8377 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Rappstar wrote:
Worked out to about 6w at 45kph.

What's that at 180k? Between 1 and 2 minutes?


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waff24

Jun 11, 14 20:13

Post #20 of 120 (8352 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

How much of a time penalty do you estimate to put the top of the PI octane on after a non-wetsuit swim?


nickag

Jun 11, 14 20:38

Post #21 of 120 (8301 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [bufit323] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

bufit323 wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
Worked out to about 6w at 45kph.


What's that at 180k? Between 1 and 2 minutes?

General rule quoted on ST is 50g drag @ 30mph = 5 watts @ 30mph = .5 seconds per km

Ballpark 1min 50sec in an IM.


ollie3856

Jun 11, 14 23:02

Post #22 of 120 (8099 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

thanks for posting all this! re:


'-Was faster with glasses (Smith Pivlock V2 Max) than the face shield on you. '

By how much?


DamonHenry

Jun 12, 14 0:33

Post #23 of 120 (8030 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Did anything surprise you or Mark?


tessartype

Jun 12, 14 2:25

Post #24 of 120 (7984 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Fleck] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Fleck wrote:
(custom tailored in sleeves to fit me)

For those who have no muscles! :)

I hear you brother. Us ectomorphs need to stick together!

Anxious to find a test comparing the CS Apex Speedsuit to one of the "established" options. Definitely tighter in the sleeve area, so I think that's an option if you don't want it custom-tailored.

ZONE3 - We Last Longer


scottinmd

Jun 12, 14 3:25

Post #25 of 120 (7934 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [dongustav] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

U til the winds of the Swamp land get you. And yes oh yes. They will!


thirstygreek

Jun 12, 14 4:05

Post #26 of 120 (3775 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [tessartype] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

tessartype wrote:
Fleck wrote:
(custom tailored in sleeves to fit me)

For those who have no muscles! :)

I hear you brother. Us ectomorphs need to stick together!

Anxious to find a test comparing the CS Apex Speedsuit to one of the "established" options. Definitely tighter in the sleeve area, so I think that's an option if you don't want it custom-tailored.

This! Why was CS left out? Please test it next time in


Mat Steinmetz

Jun 12, 14 4:52

Post #27 of 120 (3751 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [dongustav] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Quote:
Mat is the octane better than the Stealth top?


My best guess is yes, the stealth is not as fast as the octane. I've only seen one test with the stealth compared to the octane and it was slower.

I think the two different garments serve different needs. The stealth is a better option for folks that want to replace the bike jersey they wear on the bike, or not want to wear one-piece skinsuit. The stealth is also a more modest option for those that might feel uncomfortable in a one-piece.

Mat Steinmetz

51-SPEEDSHOP.com - instagram - @matsteinmetz - facebook

(This post was edited by Mat Steinmetz on Jun 12, 14 5:03)


Herbert

Jun 12, 14 5:57

Post #28 of 120 (3688 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [thirstygreek] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

If a Pro goes to the tunnel, should he/she really buy a suit from each possible manufacturer so they (the manufacturers) and all consumers get the data for free?



Helloooooo, anyone out there?




thirstygreek wrote:
tessartype wrote:
Fleck wrote:
(custom tailored in sleeves to fit me)

For those who have no muscles! :)

I hear you brother. Us ectomorphs need to stick together!

Anxious to find a test comparing the CS Apex Speedsuit to one of the "established" options. Definitely tighter in the sleeve area, so I think that's an option if you don't want it custom-tailored.

This! Why was CS left out? Please test it next time in


bullshark

Jun 12, 14 6:46

Post #29 of 120 (3631 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Rappstar wrote:
Looks virtually identical to mclaren. Is a new helmet. Name is just s-works TT.

any idea when it might be made available to the general public?


USPro Tri

Jun 12, 14 6:52

Post #30 of 120 (3617 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Jordan, curious if you happen to know what helmet size(s) were tested on the Evade?

My shop and I noticed when comparing the M vs L a substantial difference in the exterior size of the Evade (much bigger difference than expected). Some athletes like Jesse chose the Evade, but wondered how/if fit really impacts that? The Large looks huge/bulbous on me, wereas on some guys it fits better and looks really sleek. Evade has 3x sizes, whereas most aero tailed helmets often have just 1 or 2 sizes

I don't have a choice but to go with the Large if I do Evade, but other tailed aero helmets "look" faster on me fit-wise. Perhaps this is a Mark question, I'd guess he has tested people over various size helmets

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thirstygreek

Jun 12, 14 6:58

Post #31 of 120 (3602 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Herbert] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Hey it's worth a shot! Don't try and you'll never know! It makes the post biased if you limit the items tested. I don't think anyone would expect EVERY long sleeve top/suit to be tested but CS's suit has been worn by top ranked pros it deserves some attention.


ggeiger

Jun 12, 14 7:01

Post #32 of 120 (3597 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thanks for the great write up. I can start by saying I am biased as I do work with Andre at Kiwami at times. This pretty much validates what we feel about our suits, and I think you offer some exceptional advice when you state that it is not just a bike race. When I consider the 3 sports I think the Kiwami suits shine, as the swimming speed is exceptional as evidenced by the fact that many pros have purchased the suits for swim skins at Kona and it has been a standard on the ITU circuit. Your tests show the bike speed is only bettered by a suit that can be tough to fit and has shown signs of difficulty with getting in and out of. I think when one considers ALL 3 sports, the Amphibian Prima and the new Spider are in a league of their own.


texafornia

Jun 12, 14 7:27

Post #33 of 120 (3545 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Good info on the DeSoto arm coolers. I got a new pair this spring and love them. Thanks for verifying!

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Tom A.

Jun 12, 14 7:43

Post #34 of 120 (3518 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [nickag] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

nickag wrote:
bufit323 wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
Worked out to about 6w at 45kph.


What's that at 180k? Between 1 and 2 minutes?


General rule quoted on ST is 50g drag @ 30mph = 5 watts @ 30mph = .5 seconds per km

Ballpark 1min 50sec in an IM.

Nope...~5W at typical race speeds.


i.e. in the low to mid 20s mph-wise


http://bikeblather.blogspot.com/


santino314

Jun 12, 14 7:56

Post #35 of 120 (3479 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

How were the sleeves on the PI Octane tailored? By PI themselves or aftermarket? Thanks for the insight on your trip to the tunnel.
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James Haycraft

Jun 12, 14 8:26

Post #36 of 120 (3436 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Mat Steinmetz] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Mat Steinmetz wrote:
Quote:
Mat is the octane better than the Stealth top?


My best guess is yes, the stealth is not as fast as the octane. I've only seen one test with the stealth compared to the octane and it was slower.

I think the two different garments serve different needs. The stealth is a better option for folks that want to replace the bike jersey they wear on the bike, or not want to wear one-piece skinsuit. The stealth is also a more modest option for those that might feel uncomfortable in a one-piece.

I think, as usual, is that it depends. The Castelli Stealth was no worse on me and no better than the PI Octane. https://vimeo.com/94653721

For me, basically everything was the same.
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chaparral

Jun 12, 14 8:42

Post #37 of 120 (3408 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [bullshark] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

bullshark wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
Looks virtually identical to mclaren. Is a new helmet. Name is just s-works TT.


any idea when it might be made available to the general public?

I doubt we will get answer to this question. I would guess that it would be available this fall or next spring, just based on when new products are generally released (at interbike or another even like that). There is a chance it could be released if it debuts during the TDF and be released concurrently. But I think that is less likely, since pro tour teams will probably just keep using the Mclaren, why would they start using one that is "inferior"?


Rappstar

Jun 12, 14 8:49

Post #38 of 120 (3396 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [santino314] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

santino314 wrote:
How were the sleeves on the PI Octane tailored? By PI themselves or aftermarket? Thanks for the insight on your trip to the tunnel.

Andre @ Kiwami USA had his seamstress do it for me. I gave him rough dimensions, and she made the changes. Probably went a bit tight. They are a real bitch to get on (the sleeves). And based on what Cote said, they don't need to be that tight to be aero.


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Rappstar

Jun 12, 14 8:50

Post #39 of 120 (3394 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [USPro Tri] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

USPro Tri wrote:
Jordan, curious if you happen to know what helmet size(s) were tested on the Evade?

My shop and I noticed when comparing the M vs L a substantial difference in the exterior size of the Evade (much bigger difference than expected). Some athletes like Jesse chose the Evade, but wondered how/if fit really impacts that? The Large looks huge/bulbous on me, wereas on some guys it fits better and looks really sleek. Evade has 3x sizes, whereas most aero tailed helmets often have just 1 or 2 sizes

I don't have a choice but to go with the Large if I do Evade, but other tailed aero helmets "look" faster on me fit-wise. Perhaps this is a Mark question, I'd guess he has tested people over various size helmets

I only have ever tested the medium. Mark will have to elaborate on what they may have seen with different sizes on different athletes.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | Facebook - Rappstar Racing | @rappstar | WTC Ironman Pro Ambassador

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Rappstar

Jun 12, 14 8:51

Post #40 of 120 (3394 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [bullshark] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

bullshark wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
Looks virtually identical to mclaren. Is a new helmet. Name is just s-works TT.

any idea when it might be made available to the general public?

I think it's a 2015 model year product, so probably sometime early spring of next year? But there are a lot of regulatory hurdles with helmets, so that's really just a best guess. Even the folks at SBC won't be able to say for sure.


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Rappstar

Jun 12, 14 8:52

Post #41 of 120 (3384 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [DamonHenry] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

DamonHenry wrote:
Did anything surprise you or Mark?

We both thought the 3/4 sleeve top would be faster. Definitely not slower.

Also thought the two piece would be slower than it was.

I thought for sure the Fusion suit would be faster than a sleeveless suit. Maybe not as fast as the "textured" fabric of the Pearl suit, but I did not expect 6w.


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Rappstar

Jun 12, 14 8:52

Post #42 of 120 (3384 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [craigj532] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

craigj532 wrote:
Easy question - what size PI Octane did you wear?

Medium


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Rappstar

Jun 12, 14 8:52

Post #43 of 120 (3384 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Thomas Gerlach] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thomas Gerlach wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
Nothing in pockets during race. So no testing with items in pocket.

For some athletes, no tail helmets are much faster at high yaw. Starky for example. Why he wore the Giro air attack in Kona. Not the case for me.

Is there something specific that makes it work on Starky, or is just impossible to tell without going into the tunnel to test?

You'd have to ask him. I think it depends a LOT on back shape. If the tail doesn't "tuck" into your back, it's more likely that the helmet will stall at higher yaws.


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shivermetimbers

Jun 12, 14 8:55

Post #44 of 120 (3380 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [scottinmd] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

any tunnel data on the evade? There are several twitchers in here who don't think it's aero.............
____________________________________
"If you can't teach, you teach P.E."-Dewey Finn


Rappstar

Jun 12, 14 8:56

Post #45 of 120 (3379 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [rrheisler] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

rrheisler wrote:
Jordan--

We are of a similar build, and we've talked extensively before about different sizing/positioning on board our respective Shivs. I too am wearing the Octane this year and finding it significantly faster than any other apparel option.

Couple of questions:

1.) What, between the CE and the CPSC versions of the S-Works TT, do you think makes the CE more comfortable for you?
2.) How'd you wind up getting the logoing done on the Octane? I ask as I've landed a couple for myself and a.) want to keep wearing the suit and b.) don't want to f it up in the process.
3.) Any thoughts behind the sunglasses being faster than the visor?

Gracias, good sir.

1) the ear flaps on the CE version go lower. Maybe some other changes with fit/shape. But the only one I know for sure is that the earflaps drop lower on the CE.

But really it just "felt" better - but only very slightly. Mostly just gut - "fast answer, which helmet is more comfy?" "This one." And that was the CE one.

2) Andre @ Kiwami USA. *THE* ABSOLUTE BEST transfer printer there is. He does a better job even than OE companies on transfer printing. If you need transfer printing, on any fabric, Andre is without question the best guy to do it. He can even do multiple colors. He's really a magician. And the logos NEVER peel.

3) The Smith Pivlock V2Max actually seems like it was tailor made for the shell shape of that McLaren helmet. It's practically like a visor, only smaller. So I think SOME of it may just be luck with those glasses and that helmet.


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Rappstar

Jun 12, 14 8:57

Post #46 of 120 (3374 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [shivermetimbers] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

shivermetimbers wrote:
any tunnel data on the evade? There are several twitchers in here who don't think it's aero.............

And they would be wrong. I published my findings on that helmet last september. 5w slower than the McLaren, which is pretty amazing.


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shivermetimbers

Jun 12, 14 9:00

Post #47 of 120 (3369 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Rappstar wrote:
shivermetimbers wrote:
any tunnel data on the evade? There are several twitchers in here who don't think it's aero.............


And they would be wrong. I published my findings on that helmet last september. 5w slower than the McLaren, which is pretty amazing.


Nick_Barkley wrote:
shivermetimbers wrote:
/Evade


hardly cheap or fast. pretty much ultimate fail.
____________________________________
"If you can't teach, you teach P.E."-Dewey Finn

(This post was edited by shivermetimbers on Jun 12, 14 9:02)


Rappstar

Jun 12, 14 9:05

Post #48 of 120 (3357 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [thirstygreek] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

thirstygreek wrote:
Hey it's worth a shot! Don't try and you'll never know! It makes the post biased if you limit the items tested. I don't think anyone would expect EVERY long sleeve top/suit to be tested but CS's suit has been worn by top ranked pros it deserves some attention.

I actually tried early in the year to get a CS suit. But the custom aspect of it makes it a bit trickier because it takes time to create a template that looks good. And I just didn't have the time to commit to it and CS understandably didn't want to devote a bunch of resources designing a suit for me that I might never have used. I may still try to get one for Kona. Not sure. It's definitely an interesting suit, and I would have liked to have had one to test.

The other suit/top I would have wanted to test was the Castelli SR Tri Skinsuit and T1 Stealth top. I also tried to get these from Castelli USA, but they weren't selling these to "normal" folks in the spring.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | Facebook - Rappstar Racing | @rappstar | WTC Ironman Pro Ambassador

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dongustav

Jun 12, 14 9:09

Post #49 of 120 (3348 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Question - when pulling up the sleeves on a tight-sleeved suit like the octane, do you punch yourself in the mouth nearly every time like I do? I split my lip open once a week getting into my castelli aero race jerseys. But seriously, would you race with the octane suit and try to pull it on in T1 considering how difficult it might be over wet arms?


Nick B

Jun 12, 14 9:13

Post #50 of 120 (3341 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [shivermetimbers] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

shivermetimbers wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
shivermetimbers wrote:
any tunnel data on the evade? There are several twitchers in here who don't think it's aero.............


And they would be wrong. I published my findings on that helmet last september. 5w slower than the McLaren, which is pretty amazing.


Nick_Barkley wrote:
shivermetimbers wrote:
/Evade


hardly cheap or fast. pretty much ultimate fail.

1. Stop PMing stupid comments, troll.
2. The McLaren is 5w faster than the Evade.
3. The Giro A2 often tests faster than the McLaren.


Rappstar

Jun 12, 14 9:18

Post #51 of 120 (4243 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [dongustav] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

dongustav wrote:
Question - when pulling up the sleeves on a tight-sleeved suit like the octane, do you punch yourself in the mouth nearly every time like I do? I split my lip open once a week getting into my castelli aero race jerseys. But seriously, would you race with the octane suit and try to pull it on in T1 considering how difficult it might be over wet arms?

I wouldn't "try it" in a race. I'd have practiced it enough times in training that I would have a reasonable expectation of precisely how long it would take me to pull on. It *should* save 2-3min over 180km. But I would say that if took me any longer than a MAXIMUM of an additional 30 seconds to get on (versus a suit that required no additional time), I would not wear it.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | Facebook - Rappstar Racing | @rappstar | WTC Ironman Pro Ambassador

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shivermetimbers

Jun 12, 14 9:19

Post #52 of 120 (4239 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Nick_Barkley] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I PM'd you with the link to this topic, not sure how that is misconstrued as trolling............ But your statement was that (in case you missed the quotation) was that the evade wasn't cheap or fast...........do I need to link up your quote again?

Nick_Barkley wrote:
shivermetimbers wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
shivermetimbers wrote:
any tunnel data on the evade? There are several twitchers in here who don't think it's aero.............


And they would be wrong. I published my findings on that helmet last september. 5w slower than the McLaren, which is pretty amazing.


Nick_Barkley wrote:
shivermetimbers wrote:
/Evade


hardly cheap or fast. pretty much ultimate fail.


1. Stop PMing stupid comments, troll.
2. The McLaren is 5w faster than the Evade.
3. The Giro A2 often tests faster than the McLaren.
____________________________________
"If you can't teach, you teach P.E."-Dewey Finn

(This post was edited by shivermetimbers on Jun 12, 14 9:21)


Nick B

Jun 12, 14 9:21

Post #53 of 120 (4226 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [shivermetimbers] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

The Evade is $250 plus tax. It's slower than the A2 for most people. Yes it does fail in terms of bang/buck.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...rch_string=;#5118117



(This post was edited by Nick_Barkley on Jun 12, 14 9:25)


shivermetimbers

Jun 12, 14 9:25

Post #54 of 120 (4215 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Nick_Barkley] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I got mine from the LBS for under $200.........try again. Don't start back peddling now, that's not what you said originally! I can't believe people actually pay you for bike fit services.......

and for the record, you were the first to cast out the insults:


Home: Messages: Re: you just got destroyed by RappRe: you just got destroyed by Rapp
From: Nick_Barkley
Date Sent:
Jun 12, 14 9:14
Learn to read, moron.

____________________________________
"If you can't teach, you teach P.E."-Dewey Finn


(This post was edited by shivermetimbers on Jun 12, 14 9:34)


MITaerobike

Jun 12, 14 9:48

Post #55 of 120 (4159 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [USPro Tri] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

USPro Tri wrote:
Jordan, curious if you happen to know what helmet size(s) were tested on the Evade?

My shop and I noticed when comparing the M vs L a substantial difference in the exterior size of the Evade (much bigger difference than expected). Some athletes like Jesse chose the Evade, but wondered how/if fit really impacts that? The Large looks huge/bulbous on me, wereas on some guys it fits better and looks really sleek. Evade has 3x sizes, whereas most aero tailed helmets often have just 1 or 2 sizes

I don't have a choice but to go with the Large if I do Evade, but other tailed aero helmets "look" faster on me fit-wise. Perhaps this is a Mark question, I'd guess he has tested people over various size helmets

We tested all sizes and certifications (CPSC, CEN, Asia - S, M, L) on probably about 50ish athletes over the past year. Generally we do a comparison versus either a TT helmet or two and the Prevail. For good measure often throwing a few competitor helmets in there.

The Large is "bigger" but is proportionately shaped for aerodynamics. It still works as it's designed and offers a similar advantage versus a M vs. M or S vs. S, etc.

I won't use Watts because this means so many different things to different riders. But time saved works out well regardless of rider speed (to within a handful of seconds) - The rough median benefit of an Evade versus a Prevail is 45 seconds saved over 40 km. This is generally true per helmet size and head/shoulder/back position.

Mark
--
Mark Cote
MITAerobike (ST, Twitter)
Specialized Bicycle Components
Performance Road - Triathlon - Aero


Rappstar

Jun 12, 14 9:53

Post #56 of 120 (4151 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Nick_Barkley] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Nick_Barkley wrote:
shivermetimbers wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
shivermetimbers wrote:
any tunnel data on the evade? There are several twitchers in here who don't think it's aero.............


And they would be wrong. I published my findings on that helmet last september. 5w slower than the McLaren, which is pretty amazing.


Nick_Barkley wrote:
shivermetimbers wrote:
/Evade


hardly cheap or fast. pretty much ultimate fail.

1. Stop PMing stupid comments, troll.
2. The McLaren is 5w faster than the Evade.
3. The Giro A2 often tests faster than the McLaren.

1. The McLaren is 5w faster than the Evade *FOR ME.* That's definitely not universal. Helmet selection is hugely dependent on back choice.

2. Based on what data? I'm not saying that you're wrong (or right). I'm just saying that in a thread talking about my actual data from an actual wind tunnel, your statement, "the Giro A2 often tests faster than the McLaren" doesn't really mean very much.

- how often?
- on how many different riders?
- in what tunnel?

Just to take one data point - Crowie is *NOT* under contract with helmets from Specialized. That's why he always paints them up with Road ID logoing. So if he wanted to race in the Giro A2, he could. It is the helmet he wore in 2011, before the McLaren was released. But he doesn't; he wears the McLaren. Why? BECAUSE IT IS FASTER. By about 2min over 180km (roughly 5-6w). Based on his own PUBLIC data: http://triathlon.competitor.com/...ro-helmet-test_63574

So, based on that data - which supports other data if you want to go googling:
- The McLaren is faster than the A2
- The A2 is not even clearly faster than the Evade (this based on Specialized's own testing), and the Evade is lighter and better ventilated than the A2.

You can even just search this forum for more data. Jim @ ERO has some good numbers from the Evade. It's definitely the fastest aero-road helmet, besting both the LG Corse and the Giro Air Attack in their testing as well.

If you want to make the statement that the A2 "often tests faster than the McLaren," you can. But back it up. Often - to me - means that at least 50% of the time, the A2 is faster. What does it mean to you?


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | Facebook - Rappstar Racing | @rappstar | WTC Ironman Pro Ambassador

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jeffp

Jun 12, 14 10:03

Post #57 of 120 (4131 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [shivermetimbers] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

5w difference at 40kph for Rapp, which if we use the normal tunnel speed of 30mph, more like ~9 or just under watts which is, per ROT tossed around here, ~36sec for a 40k. this is not a small or insignificant number


johnnybefit

Jun 12, 14 10:03

Post #58 of 120 (4131 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Did you test with shaved legs and hairy legs like Jesse Thomas? I am interested to know if there truly is a watt benefit like he said in the Triathlete article.
His gain was 15 watts.


tucktri

Jun 12, 14 10:06

Post #59 of 120 (4122 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [shivermetimbers] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

shivermetimbers wrote:
I got mine from the LBS for under $200.........try again. Don't start back peddling now, that's not what you said originally! I can't believe people actually pay you for bike fit services.......

and for the record, you were the first to cast out the insults:


Home: Messages: Re: you just got destroyed by RappRe: you just got destroyed by Rapp
From: Nick_Barkley
Date Sent:
Jun 12, 14 9:14
Learn to read, moron.


So you called him "fagboy" over some comment he made over a helmet? How old are you?


Edit: sorry not my intention to take away from the true meaning if this thread with this. Jordan thanks for doing this. Always interesting to see how different equipment changes things.


(This post was edited by tucktri on Jun 12, 14 10:12)


MITaerobike

Jun 12, 14 10:07

Post #60 of 120 (4117 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [bullshark] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

bullshark wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
Looks virtually identical to mclaren. Is a new helmet. Name is just s-works TT.


any idea when it might be made available to the general public?

Jordan shouldn'tve told you it was a new helmet at all....hahaha it's OK. This is a transparent, open place. The new helmet is a major modification of the current S-Works + McLaren TT helmet.
-increased certification - CPSC, CEN
-removable face shield(s) - very much led by protour athletes asking for this - has taken us a while to get this to not be a ton slower than without. Generally what's optically clear and an effective aerodynamic leading edge are different shapes.
-increased ear "room" as the previous helmet was very tight in this area.
-completely new molding. Previous one was mega hard to make...

Aerodynamically, this new helmet is pretty much identical to the current CE S-Works + McLaren TT. Of course there are small nuances that on some athletes might show a small difference, but we've tested this on about 10 athletes now (in various sizes) and have had consistent data.

One other thing is that the TT to Evade difference on Jordan is a bit smaller than most athletes. More see a slightly bigger advantage to the TT helmet with a different back/shoulder/head relationship.

Mark
--
Mark Cote
MITAerobike (ST, Twitter)
Specialized Bicycle Components
Performance Road - Triathlon - Aero


MITaerobike

Jun 12, 14 10:18

Post #61 of 120 (4093 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [MITaerobike] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Oh I never answered the question - the helmet will be eventually commercially available. We don't know when yet. Still in testing.

Mark
--
Mark Cote
MITAerobike (ST, Twitter)
Specialized Bicycle Components
Performance Road - Triathlon - Aero


Rappstar

Jun 12, 14 11:48

Post #62 of 120 (3966 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [johnnybefit] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

johnnybefit wrote:
Did you test with shaved legs and hairy legs like Jesse Thomas? I am interested to know if there truly is a watt benefit like he said in the Triathlete article.
His gain was 15 watts.

I was given a "4 on the Chewbacca scale." I'm hoping that's out of 10. I mean, I had hair on my legs, but I was no Jesse Thomas... That said, I always shave for races. How much? Ankles-to-sideburns. (TMI, sorry...) So I shave both my arms and my legs, even for wetsuit legal races (where some people wonder why I shave my arms).


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | Facebook - Rappstar Racing | @rappstar | WTC Ironman Pro Ambassador

Ask me about: Specialized | Compex 20% OFF - RAPPSTAR20 | Zipp | 1st Endurance | Normatec 10% OFF - RAPP2013 | Quarq | SRAM | ZICO | Smith Optics


bwain

Jun 12, 14 12:46

Post #63 of 120 (3865 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Do shaved arms test better? Pits too?


Jim@EROsports

Jun 12, 14 16:44

Post #64 of 120 (3636 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Rappstar wrote:
Nick_Barkley wrote:
shivermetimbers wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
shivermetimbers wrote:
any tunnel data on the evade? There are several twitchers in here who don't think it's aero.............


And they would be wrong. I published my findings on that helmet last september. 5w slower than the McLaren, which is pretty amazing.


Nick_Barkley wrote:
shivermetimbers wrote:
/Evade


hardly cheap or fast. pretty much ultimate fail.

1. Stop PMing stupid comments, troll.
2. The McLaren is 5w faster than the Evade.
3. The Giro A2 often tests faster than the McLaren.

1. The McLaren is 5w faster than the Evade *FOR ME.* That's definitely not universal. Helmet selection is hugely dependent on back choice.

2. Based on what data? I'm not saying that you're wrong (or right). I'm just saying that in a thread talking about my actual data from an actual wind tunnel, your statement, "the Giro A2 often tests faster than the McLaren" doesn't really mean very much.

- how often?
- on how many different riders?
- in what tunnel?

Just to take one data point - Crowie is *NOT* under contract with helmets from Specialized. That's why he always paints them up with Road ID logoing. So if he wanted to race in the Giro A2, he could. It is the helmet he wore in 2011, before the McLaren was released. But he doesn't; he wears the McLaren. Why? BECAUSE IT IS FASTER. By about 2min over 180km (roughly 5-6w). Based on his own PUBLIC data: http://triathlon.competitor.com/...ro-helmet-test_63574

So, based on that data - which supports other data if you want to go googling:
- The McLaren is faster than the A2
- The A2 is not even clearly faster than the Evade (this based on Specialized's own testing), and the Evade is lighter and better ventilated than the A2.

You can even just search this forum for more data. Jim @ ERO has some good numbers from the Evade. It's definitely the fastest aero-road helmet, besting both the LG Corse and the Giro Air Attack in their testing as well.

If you want to make the statement that the A2 "often tests faster than the McLaren," you can. But back it up. Often - to me - means that at least 50% of the time, the A2 is faster. What does it mean to you?

We've been lucky enough to have a McClaren in for testing several times, including last week. I have never seen an A2 beat it that I can recall. Maybe I'm forgetting one athlete for whom it tested faster, but none come to mind at the moment.

Jim Manton / ERO Sports
http://www.facebook.com/erosports
@erosports
Please do not pm me through this site. There's a good chance I won't see it!


Nick B

Jun 12, 14 18:06

Post #65 of 120 (3554 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Jim@EROsports] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thanks for the correction Jim.


GreenPlease

Jun 12, 14 18:12

Post #66 of 120 (3546 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [MITaerobike] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Mark: did you test out any of the different kits... specifically the Pearl Izumi? Rapp mentioned in the first comment it was a bit faster for him. Perhaps you could offer another data point.

Just as an aside, this might be a good area for Specialized to research.


BikeTechReview

Jun 12, 14 18:45

Post #67 of 120 (3513 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Mark,

Could you talk a bit more about what goes on between the repeats (pt 1,2 & pt 3,4...etc...)? time delta between end of pt1 and beginning of pt2/wind status/what does rider do?

also, just a quickie - are the reported CxA's corrected for beta?



thanks for your time,
=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================


dwesley

Jun 12, 14 18:57

Post #68 of 120 (3500 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Jordan, what areas on the kit have you found most critical for aerodynamics? No kit will fit everyone the same way, and I'd imagine poor fit could easily trump the particular aero qualities of a kit (just like in bike fits).

Any typical problem areas should we be aware of? I'd imagine bunching up around the shoulders would be detrimental, and many kits tend to crease around the hip.


MITaerobike

Jun 12, 14 20:40

Post #69 of 120 (3416 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [BikeTechReview] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

BikeTechReview wrote:
Mark,

Could you talk a bit more about what goes on between the repeats (pt 1,2 & pt 3,4...etc...)? time delta between end of pt1 and beginning of pt2/wind status/what does rider do?

also, just a quickie - are the reported CxA's corrected for beta?



thanks for your time,

Jordan thought that during his warm up period, the first several tests, his knees were wider when pedaling than after about and hour when he got comfortable. Our tunnel tares and photos showed nothing different but we believe the deltas were due to dynamic motion. This is why we went back and re-tested a control suit and then repeated the interesting suits to make sure the deltas repeated. Of course, there IS variation to how a suit is worn and to do a proper test I always recommend we do multiple repeats where a rider has to change and then change back between suits to see if the material in the shoulders and back goes back to where it needs to be.

Jordan's individual repeats were right on (~0.001 m^2 deltas) so it was a bigger shift than data or rider repeatability. Hope this answers question #1.

For q #2 - These are body axis Cd*A reported in m^2. We test at a constant dynamic pressure. I don't know what corrections you're asking about.

Best,

Mark
--
Mark Cote
MITAerobike (ST, Twitter)
Specialized Bicycle Components
Performance Road - Triathlon - Aero


devashish_paul

Jun 12, 14 20:42

Post #70 of 120 (3413 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [MITaerobike] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

MITaerobike wrote:
bullshark wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
Looks virtually identical to mclaren. Is a new helmet. Name is just s-works TT.


any idea when it might be made available to the general public?


Jordan shouldn'tve told you it was a new helmet at all....hahaha it's OK. This is a transparent, open place. The new helmet is a major modification of the current S-Works + McLaren TT helmet.
-increased certification - CPSC, CEN
-removable face shield(s) - very much led by protour athletes asking for this - has taken us a while to get this to not be a ton slower than without. Generally what's optically clear and an effective aerodynamic leading edge are different shapes.
-increased ear "room" as the previous helmet was very tight in this area.
-completely new molding. Previous one was mega hard to make...

Aerodynamically, this new helmet is pretty much identical to the current CE S-Works + McLaren TT. Of course there are small nuances that on some athletes might show a small difference, but we've tested this on about 10 athletes now (in various sizes) and have had consistent data.

One other thing is that the TT to Evade difference on Jordan is a bit smaller than most athletes. More see a slightly bigger advantage to the TT helmet with a different back/shoulder/head relationship.

Mark

Mark, if you ride head down, will there be a less of a delta between TT and Evade?

cervelo.com (P3) |infinitnutrition.ca | bushtukah.com
Whiteface Hill Climb + Epicman Lake Placid 3k/180k/21k June 5/6 2014, Epicman Tremblant 10k/260k/42.2k 11-13 July 2014


chrisyu

Jun 12, 14 22:06

Post #71 of 120 (3368 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [BikeTechReview] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Hey everyone, I've been away from ST for a while!...have been super swamped lately (something about finishing that last degree, haha).

Anyways, Kraig: thought I would jump in here on your q's (edit: Just saw Cote replied - I know he's swamped too, so I'm thinking he quickly replied about the config repeats when he saw your question. Sounds like you're asking about the point repeats?):

What happens between the repeat points varies depending on the athlete (on some occasions, we just do single point sweeps and just run more repeat configs throughout the session). Generally, we tell the athlete that they can relax, take a drink, move if necessary, etc... after the first point. Once we see they've settled back into position, we'll take the second point. If we are being very careful about something (say helmet position R&D), we'll have the athlete sit up or get off the bike and reassume the position for pt 2. With some athletes that are super dialed with their positions, and if we have a history of testing the athlete (so we have a good idea of how repeatable their position is), we'll knock through the 2 points with only a couple of seconds between - this was the case with Jordan. So really, it's just an extended time record more than a true repeat.

For the CxA reporting, Jordan's a special case. Since he's super techie, we just offered to give him a copy and paste subset of the raw data dump so the correction has not yet been applied. For normal full athlete/team reports or obviously with course simulations that I run, I'll apply a beta angle correction in those cases.

Chris Yu
Specialized Bicycle Components
Aerodynamics/Racing R&D
Twitter: @chrisyuinc

(This post was edited by chrisyu on Jun 12, 14 22:28)


chrisyu

Jun 12, 14 22:12

Post #72 of 120 (3365 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Hey Dev,

Long time no chat! It depends on the head down TT vs. Evade. The profile and planform shapes of the two helmets are essentially identical, and we know the vents are near 0 added drag so the only major differences are the ear flaps and tail on the TT. Depending on how head down is "head down" and how arched the back is, we've seen either test fastest depending on the athlete. I'd have to dig through everyone we've tested, but if I had to guess, I'd say the two test pretty close in the head down position for most people.

Hope that helps

Chris Yu
Specialized Bicycle Components
Aerodynamics/Racing R&D
Twitter: @chrisyuinc


pyf

Jun 13, 14 2:24

Post #73 of 120 (3282 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thanks so much for sharing Jordan !
One note to confirm what you say : the fastest suit in the tunnel is not always the fastest suit in a full triathlon ! I've had the Pearl Izumi Octane since summer 2012 and as much as I like to use it on the bike, it is a suit I run slow with, there is no elasticity on the side pannel and as a consequence my "compressed" chest is not an efficiently breathing chest... so while I might end up saving let's say a minute for a said distance on the bike, I might loose two on the corresponding distance for the run so it's a 1mn slower suit FOR ME.
In the end the fastest suit is the one that help you get the fastest time from start to finish, it includes time in transition as well as how good you feel running in the suit, maybe we could even include how much better you recover for your next race and so on if you are not sun burnt ;-) . I'm all for sleeved suit if it's fast and fits well, only problem is at this point I haven't found that suit. Hopefully the next generation of PI Octane suit will solve the issues I faces with the first version !

----------------------------------------

Works for Look Cycle - Races Xterra, 70.3 and Ironman (finally !).
Website : http://pyfrides.wordpress.com/


bufit323

Jun 13, 14 3:13

Post #74 of 120 (3239 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [pyf] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I haven't had a good run off the bike yet in my PI yet either. I think it causes me to over heat. It sucks too, because I love the concept of the suit.

My next big race is a hot one and I think it will see me in a desoto short sleeve riviera tri top. Way cooler for me and fits very tight. I may give up some time (and who really know for me in particular), but I will get it back on the run.

I am still toying with the idea of changing in T2.


BLeP wrote: "I'll never race Kona but I am proudly literate"


shivermetimbers

Jun 13, 14 4:39

Post #75 of 120 (3179 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Nick_Barkley] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Nick_Barkley wrote:
Thanks for the correction Jim.

so you were wrong.....the Evade is fast, you are the moron, and your life as a bike fitter is fail.
____________________________________
"If you can't teach, you teach P.E."-Dewey Finn


BikeTechReview

Jun 13, 14 5:38

Post #76 of 120 (4802 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [chrisyu] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thanks for the info, Chris (I actually hadn't even noticed there were duplicate runs done later on in the schedule -> looks like ~1% deltas or so). Your answers and the repeat runs help me to put these results in context. Nice work, and thanks for sharing!

Jordan, out of curiosity, what is your shoulder width to hip width ratio while riding?

Cheers,
-k
=================
Kraig Willett
http://www.biketechreview.com - check out our reduced report pricing
=================


devashish_paul

Jun 13, 14 5:40

Post #77 of 120 (4800 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [chrisyu] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

chrisyu wrote:
Hey Dev,

Long time no chat! It depends on the head down TT vs. Evade. The profile and planform shapes of the two helmets are essentially identical, and we know the vents are near 0 added drag so the only major differences are the ear flaps and tail on the TT. Depending on how head down is "head down" and how arched the back is, we've seen either test fastest depending on the athlete. I'd have to dig through everyone we've tested, but if I had to guess, I'd say the two test pretty close in the head down position for most people.

Hope that helps

First of all, congrats on closing in towards finishing the second degree. If you are working and doing it at night school and trying to write a thesis that is a brutal stretch. I remember trying to do that thinking I'd crank my thesis off in 6 months, and it ended up taking me 2 more years!!!
Here is the best shot of my arched back and head down.


I was going to pick up an Evade because it sounds like the best all conditions helmet but may wait for the TT. By the way, how do you get the drag down for the Evade vents to close to zero. Is this because there is a "pass through" effect, and thus the Evade has less "virtual frontal" than its shape indicates (ie close to laminar airflow through the vents and out the other end?). If not the vents should create some turbulence and resultant drag?

cervelo.com (P3) |infinitnutrition.ca | bushtukah.com
Whiteface Hill Climb + Epicman Lake Placid 3k/180k/21k June 5/6 2014, Epicman Tremblant 10k/260k/42.2k 11-13 July 2014


Rappstar

Jun 13, 14 9:46

Post #78 of 120 (4612 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [bwain] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

bwain wrote:
Do shaved arms test better? Pits too?

Yes, shaved arms test faster.

Shaved pits? I guess it depends on how hairy you are. And, of course, if you have a sleeved suit or not. I generally shave there too, mostly because for wetsuit swims, I find that wetsuits - with a sleeveless kit - pull on armpit hair. And for a non-wetsuit swim, well, it certainly can't hurt.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | Facebook - Rappstar Racing | @rappstar | WTC Ironman Pro Ambassador

Ask me about: Specialized | Compex 20% OFF - RAPPSTAR20 | Zipp | 1st Endurance | Normatec 10% OFF - RAPP2013 | Quarq | SRAM | ZICO | Smith Optics


Rappstar

Jun 13, 14 9:48

Post #79 of 120 (4609 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [dwesley] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

dwesley wrote:
Jordan, what areas on the kit have you found most critical for aerodynamics? No kit will fit everyone the same way, and I'd imagine poor fit could easily trump the particular aero qualities of a kit (just like in bike fits).

Any typical problem areas should we be aware of? I'd imagine bunching up around the shoulders would be detrimental, and many kits tend to crease around the hip.

I wish I had an answer for you. I'm still very much in the learning phase with these sleeved kits. Mark said that basically it's arms/shoulders/upper back. The obvious stuff. But of course anywhere that it fits poorly could be a problem.

But Mark or Chris really are the best people to ask about this. Or Jim from ERO.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | Facebook - Rappstar Racing | @rappstar | WTC Ironman Pro Ambassador

Ask me about: Specialized | Compex 20% OFF - RAPPSTAR20 | Zipp | 1st Endurance | Normatec 10% OFF - RAPP2013 | Quarq | SRAM | ZICO | Smith Optics


Rappstar

Jun 13, 14 9:50

Post #80 of 120 (4607 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [BikeTechReview] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

BikeTechReview wrote:
Thanks for the info, Chris (I actually hadn't even noticed there were duplicate runs done later on in the schedule -> looks like ~1% deltas or so). Your answers and the repeat runs help me to put these results in context. Nice work, and thanks for sharing!

Jordan, out of curiosity, what is your shoulder width to hip width ratio while riding?

Cheers,
-k

I have no idea.

Does this help?




"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | Facebook - Rappstar Racing | @rappstar | WTC Ironman Pro Ambassador

Ask me about: Specialized | Compex 20% OFF - RAPPSTAR20 | Zipp | 1st Endurance | Normatec 10% OFF - RAPP2013 | Quarq | SRAM | ZICO | Smith Optics


chrisyu

Jun 13, 14 10:52

Post #81 of 120 (4556 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Yea, hard to say even with the photo. Like I mentioned, my best educated guess would be it'll be super close between the two helmets with that head orientation.

The vents on the Evade was a LONG project. To boil it down, there is enough channeling and exit area for the front vents to not cause additional drag (and they are shaped to not disrupt flow over the outer shell shape). You have to remember that airflow will stagnate on the front of the helmet whether there are vents or not (with vents, part of the flow stagnates on your head instead). The key is what happens after that. The rear vents are placed and shaped (more scoop like) carefully. You'll notice that there's an absence of vents over the midsection of the helmet - this was by design.

Best,

Chris Yu
Specialized Bicycle Components
Aerodynamics/Racing R&D
Twitter: @chrisyuinc


chrisyu

Jun 13, 14 10:57

Post #82 of 120 (4546 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [dwesley] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

We always say the low hanging fruit is with fit and usually the eyeball test is good enough for that. It's like a tailored suit - your eye will know when something fits well.

After that, we're talking about panel shapes, seam placement, fabric textures, trip features, etc... and generally those are much more athlete dependent. Wrinkles are not always a symptom of a poor testing suit. Obviously too many of them would point to a poor fitting suit, but we have tested some fast suits that have a wrinkle here or there on certain athletes.

As a general rule of thumb, a "good" suit will be pretty good on almost everyone (and a "bad" suit will be pretty bad on almost everyone). To choose the best among the good suits usually requires testing the specific person.


dwesley wrote:
Jordan, what areas on the kit have you found most critical for aerodynamics? No kit will fit everyone the same way, and I'd imagine poor fit could easily trump the particular aero qualities of a kit (just like in bike fits).

Any typical problem areas should we be aware of? I'd imagine bunching up around the shoulders would be detrimental, and many kits tend to crease around the hip.

Chris Yu
Specialized Bicycle Components
Aerodynamics/Racing R&D
Twitter: @chrisyuinc


TPerry

Jun 14, 14 21:16

Post #83 of 120 (4009 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Dittos on the sharing. Although not related to clothing, what wheels and tires are you choosing? Along with that what tubes and at what pressure are you running them? Thank you.


Rappstar

Jun 15, 14 9:41

Post #84 of 120 (3759 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [TPerry] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

For Kona:
808 front & rear. Carbon clincher.

For everything else:
808 front and Super9 rear. Carbon clincher.

Tires:
on 808: GP4000S 23mm
on Super9: GP4000S 25mm

Tubes:
Vittoria Latex 19-23mm
23mm @ 105psi
25mm @ 95psi


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | Facebook - Rappstar Racing | @rappstar | WTC Ironman Pro Ambassador

Ask me about: Specialized | Compex 20% OFF - RAPPSTAR20 | Zipp | 1st Endurance | Normatec 10% OFF - RAPP2013 | Quarq | SRAM | ZICO | Smith Optics


stevej

Jun 16, 14 9:27

Post #85 of 120 (2983 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Why do you run a wider tire with the disc?


My Blog
Tri Bike Run


Rappstar

Jun 16, 14 9:48

Post #86 of 120 (2964 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [stevej] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Discs have less vertical compliance. They are also more aerodynamically forgiving of tire choice.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | Facebook - Rappstar Racing | @rappstar | WTC Ironman Pro Ambassador

Ask me about: Specialized | Compex 20% OFF - RAPPSTAR20 | Zipp | 1st Endurance | Normatec 10% OFF - RAPP2013 | Quarq | SRAM | ZICO | Smith Optics


sharkGu

Jun 16, 14 10:21

Post #87 of 120 (2930 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Rappstar wrote:
For Kona:
808 front & rear. Carbon clincher.

For everything else:
808 front and Super9 rear. Carbon clincher.

Tires:
on 808: GP4000S 23mm
on Super9: GP4000S 25mm

Tubes:
Vittoria Latex 19-23mm
23mm @ 105psi
25mm @ 95psi

Jordan, is your choice of tire based on aerodynamics, rolling resistance, puncture resistance, or all 3? I know this tire tests pretty well on these parameters, but I'm curious which other ones you've tested? Also, can you give some color on your choice of tire pressure?


MITaerobike

Jun 17, 14 18:58

Post #88 of 120 (2233 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Our Win Tunnel video for this week is a tour of the facility with a few more light details and specs.

Win Tunnel Tour

Mark
--
Mark Cote
MITAerobike (ST, Twitter)
Specialized Bicycle Components
Performance Road - Triathlon - Aero

(This post was edited by MITaerobike on Jun 17, 14 18:59)


theKAISER

Jun 17, 14 21:19

Post #89 of 120 (2176 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

How about aero shoe covers. Seems like it would be fairly easy to have them rolled up over the toebox and pull them up later.


GreenPlease

Jun 18, 14 12:44

Post #90 of 120 (1945 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [MITaerobike] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

MITaerobike wrote:
Our Win Tunnel video for this week is a tour of the facility with a few more light details and specs.

Win Tunnel Tour

Mark

Very cool. Have you guys ever considered including wind tunnel time if someone purchases a "super bike" from you guys? I could see that being a good selling point.


Rappstar

Jun 19, 14 15:12

Post #91 of 120 (1776 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [sharkGu] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

sharkGu wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
For Kona:
808 front & rear. Carbon clincher.

For everything else:
808 front and Super9 rear. Carbon clincher.

Tires:
on 808: GP4000S 23mm
on Super9: GP4000S 25mm

Tubes:
Vittoria Latex 19-23mm
23mm @ 105psi
25mm @ 95psi

Jordan, is your choice of tire based on aerodynamics, rolling resistance, puncture resistance, or all 3? I know this tire tests pretty well on these parameters, but I'm curious which other ones you've tested? Also, can you give some color on your choice of tire pressure?

All three. But with a bias towards aero & Crr first. Puncture protection is a factor, though not to the same degree

Tire pressure comes mostly from Tom A., but with some advice from SRAM and Conti thrown in as well. That's pretty much what they are recommending these days. A lot of it is the shift to wider wheels, and I think some of it is also tire quality as well. But it just seems that the recommended pressures keep dropping.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | Facebook - Rappstar Racing | @rappstar | WTC Ironman Pro Ambassador

Ask me about: Specialized | Compex 20% OFF - RAPPSTAR20 | Zipp | 1st Endurance | Normatec 10% OFF - RAPP2013 | Quarq | SRAM | ZICO | Smith Optics


Rappstar

Jun 19, 14 15:14

Post #92 of 120 (1776 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [theKAISER] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

theKAISER wrote:
How about aero shoe covers. Seems like it would be fairly easy to have them rolled up over the toebox and pull them up later.

Depending on the shoe, they may actually not offer much - if any advantage. Versus the S-Works Road shoes, you'd need to run the non-permeable rain covers to see any benefit at all, and those are HOT (and not easy to "roll on"). And even then, you're not seeing a significant gain. The S-Works road shoes have this sort of "slick" material that's quite fast. But BOAs are low profile. And the shoe itself is low profile. It's a FAST shoe.

Oh, as an aside, I also asked about gloves. Mark said he's never found any gloves that *improve* aerodynamics.


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | Facebook - Rappstar Racing | @rappstar | WTC Ironman Pro Ambassador

Ask me about: Specialized | Compex 20% OFF - RAPPSTAR20 | Zipp | 1st Endurance | Normatec 10% OFF - RAPP2013 | Quarq | SRAM | ZICO | Smith Optics


DamonHenry

Jun 19, 14 17:13

Post #93 of 120 (1717 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [MITaerobike] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

MITaerobike wrote:
Our Win Tunnel video for this week is a tour of the facility with a few more light details and specs.

Win Tunnel Tour

Mark

Mark, Amazing work on the tunnel!

What do you or Chris think is the reason that shields on a helmet often increases drag?


pyrahna

Jun 19, 14 17:38

Post #94 of 120 (1706 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

 Mark, have you done any testing of the Giro Empire shoe? I'd be curious if that is more or less aero than the S-Works shoe....not that it would be a great choice for triathlon.


durk onion

Jun 19, 14 17:43

Post #95 of 120 (1698 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

How much do you weigh?


mungub50

Jun 23, 14 10:38

Post #96 of 120 (1501 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Mat Steinmetz] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Matt, thanks for all of the info on the suit. From your experience, did you and how was it swimming with it on?

Thanks


https://twitter.com/mungub
http://benmunguia.blogspot.com


arca_tern

Jun 29, 14 15:09

Post #97 of 120 (1271 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [mungub50] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Rappstar, are those stickers on your helmet/bike or are they custom paint type graphics?
If they're stickers, do you think they effect drag in any measureable/significant way?


Rappstar

Jun 29, 14 15:27

Post #98 of 120 (1254 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [arca_tern] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Stickers. And I do not think they affect drag in any meaningful way. If I was super badass, I'd maybe coat them with some awesome textured coating and place them in strategic locations to improve drag. But I am not that awesome...

My basis for stickers not affecting drag is based on Zipp's testing of their wheels with/without stickers.


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arca_tern

Jun 29, 14 15:36

Post #99 of 120 (1239 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Oohh! Didn't know they'd done such a test. Link?


mungub50

Jun 29, 14 15:43

Post #100 of 120 (1231 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Rgreat race in the heat in Texas today. I have to say, I noticed you were in the Pearl Izumi octane. How did it do in the heat and how did it feel on the run?

If you go back through Austin, you should hit up salt lick BBQ for the post race feast.


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pyf

Jun 30, 14 0:57

Post #101 of 120 (1564 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [mungub50] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Congrats on a great race yesterday Jordan !

Curious about this too, how did you like running in the Octane during a race ? As I told you before, like wearing it for the bike, hate wearing it for the run as it compresses my chest --> there is also a rule in France which actually doesn't help when I race locally : not allowed to unzip the top lower than the heart rate strap... but even completely open the Octane is a pain to run in for me.
I'm getting a Fusion Speedsuit in the next few days to see how good that one is in term of comfort, but it's heart breaking to already know I have a faster suit at my disposal that I can't use :-( . Maybe the next Octane as raced by Dirk Bockel will be great, until then I'm trying to find the best compromise ;-) . Still I'm curious to hear if the Octane influences your run or not ? Did you make any change on it (appart from the upper arms) to make it work better ? Thanks !

----------------------------------------

Works for Look Cycle - Races Xterra, 70.3 and Ironman (finally !).
Website : http://pyfrides.wordpress.com/


tessartype

Jun 30, 14 1:45

Post #102 of 120 (1548 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [pyf] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

pyf wrote:
there is also a rule in France which actually doesn't help when I race locally : not allowed to unzip the top lower than the heart rate strap...

That rule is in place in all races run under ITU regulations - which is basically everything outside the US and WTC. Not allowed to unzip in my country either. That's one of the reasons I prefer a back-zip suit, since that one you can open completely.

ZONE3 - We Last Longer


Rappstar

Jun 30, 14 5:38

Post #103 of 120 (1498 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [arca_tern] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

arca_tern wrote:
Oohh! Didn't know they'd done such a test. Link?

It might be in one of the old "ask Josh" podcasts. Or maybe Josh will answer here. But this isn't something I know because I read it somewhere; it's from being a Zipp athlete for seven years and having had a lot of conversations about these sorts of things with the engineers there.


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Rappstar

Jun 30, 14 5:51

Post #104 of 120 (1485 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [mungub50] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

mungub50 wrote:
Rgreat race in the heat in Texas today. I have to say, I noticed you were in the Pearl Izumi octane. How did it do in the heat and how did it feel on the run?

If you go back through Austin, you should hit up salt lick BBQ for the post race feast.

The suit was fine in the heat. I did not perceive it to be materially warmer (or cooler) than any other suit I've used. It was quite windy, which certainly would help an all black suit with more fabric be cooler - more evaporative cooling - than in less windy and/or more humid conditions. I also seem to have finally sorted out my issues racing in the heat that I had last year, and I feel like I'm back to being someone who enjoys and races well in the heat. In general, I think the key with the sleeved suits is to keep the sleeves wet. You have more coverage of your upper back, and if you can keep that cool, I think it really reduces the impact of the heat and - especially - the sun. I don't know what, if any, effect the "coldblack" had. I think that's somewhat of a gimmick, having raced in all black (or mostly black) suits without it for a long time, I just don't perceive a real difference. That said, the suit was fine.

I have the old version with the high collar, which was a bit constrictive on the bike when fully zipped up. But I unzipped it about 1-2cm, and it was fine, and that doesn't affect aero.

Swimming, I had a worse swim than I syracuse, but I don't think it was the suit. I did some open water swimming in the suit and did not perceive that it limited my ROM in any way. It would be hard to do a speed test in just the suit since that also factors in drag, and I didn't have access to a lake cool enough where I could comfortably swim in suit+wetsuit to test for speed (i.e. high-effort swimming).

On the run, I would have liked for the zipper to open maybe another 3-5cm, but it wasn't an issue. I ran a lot in the suit and finally felt comfortable enough in it that I didn't perceive it affected my performance. I.e., I *want* the suit to open up a bit more but I don't think I *need* it to. I don't perceive that the suit in any way hampered my running.

On balance, I thought it was a very good suit. Especially in the windy conditions, I think it was a really, really good decision to wear it. The suit could be improved - some of my proposed improvements have already been made or are being made by Pearl, but IF IT FITS YOU, it's very good.

Sadly routing home through Vegas...


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Rappstar

Jun 30, 14 5:52

Post #105 of 120 (1485 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [pyf] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

pyf wrote:
Congrats on a great race yesterday Jordan !

Curious about this too, how did you like running in the Octane during a race ? As I told you before, like wearing it for the bike, hate wearing it for the run as it compresses my chest --> there is also a rule in France which actually doesn't help when I race locally : not allowed to unzip the top lower than the heart rate strap... but even completely open the Octane is a pain to run in for me.
I'm getting a Fusion Speedsuit in the next few days to see how good that one is in term of comfort, but it's heart breaking to already know I have a faster suit at my disposal that I can't use :-( . Maybe the next Octane as raced by Dirk Bockel will be great, until then I'm trying to find the best compromise ;-) . Still I'm curious to hear if the Octane influences your run or not ? Did you make any change on it (appart from the upper arms) to make it work better ? Thanks !

it's totally stock except for the sleeves being tailored.

Other than that see my comments re: run above this.


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TPerry

Jul 9, 14 8:13

Post #106 of 120 (1244 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Have you found the Advantage2 to be better for most people than the Selector?


ggeiger

Jul 9, 14 8:38

Post #107 of 120 (1203 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [pyf] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Seems it would make more sense to get a fast Kiwami Spider instead of the one that tested slowest for him....

pyf wrote:
Congrats on a great race yesterday Jordan !

Curious about this too, how did you like running in the Octane during a race ? As I told you before, like wearing it for the bike, hate wearing it for the run as it compresses my chest --> there is also a rule in France which actually doesn't help when I race locally : not allowed to unzip the top lower than the heart rate strap... but even completely open the Octane is a pain to run in for me.
I'm getting a Fusion Speedsuit in the next few days to see how good that one is in term of comfort, but it's heart breaking to already know I have a faster suit at my disposal that I can't use :-( . Maybe the next Octane as raced by Dirk Bockel will be great, until then I'm trying to find the best compromise ;-) . Still I'm curious to hear if the Octane influences your run or not ? Did you make any change on it (appart from the upper arms) to make it work better ? Thanks !


Nate Pearson

Jul 9, 14 8:39

Post #108 of 120 (1198 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Are you running the s-works road shoe over the tri-vent?

Is there an aero reason for that? I see that you said the s-works road shoe is already pretty aero and doesn't really need a shoe cover.

I guess my question is the s-works road shoe significantly more aero than the tri-vent, and if so what was the difference during your tests?
---------------------------------------------------------
http://www.trainerroad.com - Indoor Cycling Training System


Rappstar

Jul 9, 14 9:01

Post #109 of 120 (1166 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Nate Pearson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Nate Pearson wrote:
Are you running the s-works road shoe over the tri-vent?

Is there an aero reason for that? I see that you said the s-works road shoe is already pretty aero and doesn't really need a shoe cover.

I guess my question is the s-works road shoe significantly more aero than the tri-vent, and if so what was the difference during your tests?

I run the S-Works shoe because it's more comfortable for me. Never tested the trivent, though I doubt it would be any faster. Mark would have to answer if it is slower. My guess is no, just based off eyeball and construction similarities.


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Nate Pearson

Jul 9, 14 9:42

Post #110 of 120 (1127 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Rappstar wrote:
For Kona:
808 front & rear. Carbon clincher.

For everything else:
808 front and Super9 rear. Carbon clincher.

Tires:
on 808: GP4000S 23mm
on Super9: GP4000S 25mm

Tubes:
Vittoria Latex 19-23mm
23mm @ 105psi
25mm @ 95psi

I just got this exact same setup that I'm going to use this weekend at Vineman. I thought that 120 psi was always going to have better rolling resistance.

What's the science behind lower tire pressure offering better rolling resistance? I know in MTBing people are starting to recommend lower tire pressure too.
---------------------------------------------------------
http://www.trainerroad.com - Indoor Cycling Training System


micaza75

Jul 9, 14 10:47

Post #111 of 120 (1088 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

do you really gain 1mph by putting 1 arm behind your back on a downhill going 40-50mph?


snackchair

Jul 9, 14 13:41

Post #112 of 120 (1017 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Nate Pearson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Simply put, higher psi is going to bounce more along the road. If you were riding on a totally smooth track, you could run higher pressures. On real roads though, it's better to be in that 90-110 range. The slightly wider rims that are more common now also favor lower pressures.

There's good info about tire pressure in this thread:

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum.cgi?do=post_view_flat;post=5091336;page=1;mh=-1;sb=post_latest_reply;so=ASC
___________________
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Nate Pearson

Jul 9, 14 15:19

Post #113 of 120 (978 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [snackchair] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Perfect. I have a new PSI to run at Vineman :). Thanks!
---------------------------------------------------------
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kjmcawesome

Jul 9, 14 16:32

Post #114 of 120 (951 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [micaza75] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Like this?



Does that mean 2mph with both hands behind back?



I tried this commuting home Monday. Not too hard to go no hands w/ arms tucked, but I couldn't get that low.
/kj

http://kjmcawesome.tumblr.com/


tetonrider

Jul 9, 14 18:27

Post #115 of 120 (914 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Nate Pearson] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Nate Pearson wrote:
I know in MTBing people are starting to recommend lower tire pressure too.

starting?

low 20s (tubeless) has been going on for quite some time. i'll run mid-teens with a tubular MTB setup. the traction is unreal.


micaza75

Jul 9, 14 20:39

Post #116 of 120 (865 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [kjmcawesome] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

you bet.....and another with a full skin suit!!


btmoney

Jul 9, 14 20:45

Post #117 of 120 (861 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [micaza75] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

micaza75 wrote:
you bet.....and another with a full skin suit!!

Not the Under Armour one though...
____________________________


pyf

Jul 10, 14 3:15

Post #118 of 120 (809 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [ggeiger] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

You may be right... but I'm still looking for a sleeved option, I really like racing with sleeves, the Spider suit looks interesting but I have plenty of sleeveless trisuits ;-) .

----------------------------------------

Works for Look Cycle - Races Xterra, 70.3 and Ironman (finally !).
Website : http://pyfrides.wordpress.com/


bullshark

Jul 16, 14 19:25

Post #119 of 120 (658 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [MITaerobike] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

MITaerobike wrote:
bullshark wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
Looks virtually identical to mclaren. Is a new helmet. Name is just s-works TT.


any idea when it might be made available to the general public?


Jordan shouldn'tve told you it was a new helmet at all....hahaha it's OK. This is a transparent, open place. The new helmet is a major modification of the current S-Works + McLaren TT helmet.
-increased certification - CPSC, CEN
-removable face shield(s) - very much led by protour athletes asking for this - has taken us a while to get this to not be a ton slower than without. Generally what's optically clear and an effective aerodynamic leading edge are different shapes.
-increased ear "room" as the previous helmet was very tight in this area.
-completely new molding. Previous one was mega hard to make...

Aerodynamically, this new helmet is pretty much identical to the current CE S-Works + McLaren TT. Of course there are small nuances that on some athletes might show a small difference, but we've tested this on about 10 athletes now (in various sizes) and have had consistent data.

One other thing is that the TT to Evade difference on Jordan is a bit smaller than most athletes. More see a slightly bigger advantage to the TT helmet with a different back/shoulder/head relationship.

Mark


This is going on my Christmast list
Wont make it in time to be under the tree but I can wait.....


GreenPlease

Aug 17, 14 16:49

Post #120 of 120 (380 views)
Re: Specialized Win(d) Tunnel Trip - Jun 11, 2014. Ask me & Mark Cote anything. [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I thought of a few ideas I thought you guys could test in the near future:

1. q-factor affect on aerodynamics (you guys could just use speedplay pedals/cleats and try a variety of widths). The current thinking is narrower=better but I've never seen this tested.
2. aero texturing on calf sleeves. See if you can find something similar to the PI Octane suit material and make a calf sleeve out of it.

 
 
 
 



Current-aided swims
Do swims aided by a current, such as the NYC Tri and the past weekend's IM Chattanooga, diminish the achievement? Or are they just a local geographic expression of multisport?
Diminish the achievement
Just the local geography