I think one of the most interesting things he said was about how Wellington might have raced until she was 45. It's been said before, but it's actually rather sad for the sport she is now gone, and I wonder if she'd held back more, if she might have lasted longer.
That's a pretty deep psychological question, though, so who knows.

For some additional perspective, it's worth reading Brett's most recent post about his own kids. His daughters. For those who rip into him on this forum for the mistake(s) he made, it's some interesting perspective. I used to think the same way - he's a sleeze. Then I realized that I didn't really know him at all and was overlooking the fact that a lot of very smart and capable athletes trust him and care about him a lot. We've since become friends on email. Anyway...

The classic parts of Sutton get hammered on here a lot. This is something very different - http://www.teamtbb.com/...ask=view&id=1534

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

This is a fantastic article indeed and opens my eyes to a Sutton I never knew. He really hits it on the head when he mentions that kids should just play sports, his example of the soccer team practicing for 2 hours and maybe playing 15 minutes of the game really is a microcosm of what is going on in the U.S. I remember when I was in high school 9-13 years ago, and where I went it was all about winning, and developing into the next level. What happened to the days of letting kids play the sport they want to play, where winning isn't the only thing? I understand the competition and that is good and has it's place, but it can really take away from the enjoyment of the sport. A friend of mine earned a full-ride scholarship to play D-1 football, but was so burnt out from camps, practices, coaches, etc that he quit before college.

Kids youth is very important, and sport plays a huge role in their development not only athletically, but socially, cognitively, etc. When you put some much emphasis on pushing our youth so hard, it takes away from the pure enjoyment in the sport, and what Sutton says in his post "I just let my kids play what they want.". It is now becoming what the parents what their kids to play (sometimes to live vicariously of their HS dream falling a bit short), instead of what the KIDS want to play, most coaches do not help this situation either.

That should be an article every parents needs to read the day their first child is born.

Interesting read!!

Didn;t realize that TBB paid their stars that well. Caroline steffen getting 150K is quite impressive, so much for triathletes living hand to mouth!

She is widely-considered a top five pro at IM distance (if not top 3), so to lump her with every pro seems a bit off.

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Madison photographer Timothy Hughes | Instagram

Sutton's right - let the kids play. They'll play with joy and imagination which is it's own worthwhile result. Feeling the beauty of the game is something that won't happen in over structured practice sessions at early ages. Artists or technicians.

What he did wasn't a mistake; it was a failure of morality. I assure you a longer list of smart and capable athletes trusted and cared about Joe Paterno- what are your thoughts on him? Then remember that his was a failure to act while Sutton's is more on the Sandusky level.

Sutton's coaching accomplishments mean little to me and how he treats his daughters means substantially less than how he treated another man's little girl.

Disturbing.

Joe P and Sandusky never owned up to what they did. Difference.

My question on someone like Sutton: Isn't it possible he has redeemed himself at some point? He pleaded guilty, got booted from sport in his own country, openly expressed remorse, spent a long time in "exile", hasn't repeated the offense, and has lived a very constructive life since.

Finally, the company you keep says a lot about you. I think he has overcome his past crime and now merits respect.

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Joe

Jordan,
Thanks for that link to Sutton's article about kids and sports. I am so turned off to youth athletics. It has become so hyper-competitive and ridiculous. My kid will turn eight in a few months. He is very athletic but he doesn't have a competitive mindset and frankly just doesn't care whether he wins, loses or even plays well. He just likes to play something and have fun. I live in a very upper middle class 'burb of Houston. My kid just doesn't mesh well in the youth sports system in place in my area because it's all about extracting every iota of talent out of the kid in the hopes they can succeed at the next level. Parents have no problems spending thousands of dollars on 5-10 year olds to get them private coaching or into elite leagues or keeping their young kids up until 11pm on weeknights because they had a game or practice. I have no problem with that at the high school level where the talent is more obvious and an end game (like a college scholarship) is in sight. But for a 6 or 7 year old??? Pushing a kid that young is questionable at best.

It sucks because if my kid ever gives a shit about sports I feel that he will be so behind the eight ball he could never catch up to the kids that have been part of the ridiculous system since they were 5 or 6. I'm fine with that but I'm not sure how I'll be able to convey that to him if the time comes.

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Favorite Gear: Dimond | Cadex | Desoto Sport | Hoka One One

 

What he did wasn't a mistake; it was a failure of morality. I assure you a longer list of smart and capable athletes trusted and cared about Joe Paterno- what are your thoughts on him? Then remember that his was a failure to act while Sutton's is more on the Sandusky level.

Sutton's coaching accomplishments mean little to me and how he treats his daughters means substantially less than how he treated another man's little girl.[/quote]
To compare Sutton with Sandusky is a travesty. Sutton had one consensual relationship with a 14/15 year old girl that he coached. The police interviewed every single other athlete he coached and there was no other incidence. He did wrong no doubt. It was a different time and he is a different person now. On balance I think he has done more good than harm on earth.

Without even getting into his past, this man is just so not someone I'm going to look up to... I"m sure for some people his insistence on cult-like devotion and servitude is the best path to athletic success but that doesn't mean we have to hold up his old school, control freak methods as the ideal of the ultimate coach. No powermeters (can't have athletes understand their own physiology and training), total obedience, no science, only art (when really there's a place for both)... No thanks.

And I find his endless badmouthing of Chrissie Wellington really tedious. As if there is no reason she might not want to be part of his cult and give up a large part of her earnings potential to him. She seems intelligent and well educated, and triathlon is probably not her only chance to make her mark in life, why not give it her all for a few years, make a big splash, and then move on?

run a traffic light is a mistake... what he did... pfff don't want to read any of his crap

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The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev

there is no such thing as a consensual relationship of an adult with a minor child. At BEST it is statutory rape. Worse because he was her coach - a power position. Truly a predatory transgression.

I don't think it unfair to compare Sutton and Sandusky as it is a similar theme of adult in power exploiting minor child. The difference is that (from what we know) Sutton has not repeated the action

Its a distasteful topic granted but you are assuming that a 14/15 year old girl has no sexual drive, and it's pretty clear that is incorrect.
from all reports she seduced him and he never said that once in public to protect her.

There is so much difference between Sandusky using power to Seduce 12 year old boys and Sutton that if you really think the only difference is the number of people affected you are simpy wrong.

x2

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Head down, thumbs up, give'r
@barrettdj

a few things stand out from that sutton article, as with most of his that i've read:

-first, the man's in dire (dire) need of an editor
-second: let kids play. we get it.
-third, and most interesting to me, is the relationship of presumed antagonism between sutton and . . . almost everyone else. again and again in his articles the theme emerges that it's sutton against the world, that he's the only rational man in a world of idiots, that he has to constantly rail against all manner of people and things. weird and sort of tiresome.

-mike

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https://lshtm.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/

I know, he has it all wrong.
It's *me* that is the only rational man in a world of idiots....and a couple other guys ;)

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

his job as the ADULT and COACH was to NOT be seduced.
I don't care if she got naked and crawled on top of him

I agree they are apples and oranges. A 14 year old can't consent in most juriadictions to any adult nevermind the fact that he was an authority figure to her. He expolited a power and control situation. Honestly I am amazed and how much he travels given his sex offender status. He probably requires additional entry visa paperwork.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

Apoligize some more for him... <pink>

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http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

It would have been unfortunate if Wellington had continued to race had her heart not been in it any more... sad is when 20+ people get gunned down in Connecticut.

Every IM she raced she won, set records, and elevated the game of women's long course multisport. She went out on top, undefeated. I'm not sure why people think this is sad - I think it's refrshing.

The difference is that every athlete who signs up with Sutton knows about his past. He admitted to his crime, and it was a heinous crime; I do not deny, and neither does Brett. And he served the sentence he was given. That is - to me anyway - a significant difference. I respect that you may not see that as being a difference or being significant.

To Bjorn's point, I won't attempt to speak for other athletes in terms of what they will/won't overlook in Brett's past because of what they think he might offer them. It's a more cynical view of our peers than I'm willing to take to say that they only overlook it because of what might be in it for them. Do I accept that might be the reality? Sure. But I also accept that it might now be, and I have enough faith in the character of the athletes that I have known on TBB to assume it's the latter.

I also think it's interesting that people perceive him as badmouthing Chrissie. I don't think he ever badmouths her. I think he badmouths the people around her. In that sense, I actually think he gives Chrissie a bit of a free pass, since she chose who she wanted to surround herself with. But I think it's all out of a sense of loss. What "could have been" with Chrissie. I think we all have a bit of that sense of loss. If there is a person who doesn't think we all lost something special when Chrissie retired, I think that person is crazy.

Lastly, I also think Sutton's coaching accomplishments - the titles - are actually less profound than his care for the sport and for his athletes. I think he cares about being a steward of the sport. I think he violated that stewardship in a major way when he engaged in sexual relations with a minor, and a minor who was under his tutelage. And, more importantly, I think he believes that he violated that stewardship. And I think he's doing what he can to make up for that. In short, I think he cares about leaving the world and the sport in a better place, and I think that in large part he's motivated by the fact that he's got a lot to do to even get back to zero - if he can ever get there - in a lot of people's eyes.

What I like about Brett is that - in contrast to a lot of people who have transgressed in serious ways - he does NOT want people to forget what he's done. He wants them to forgive it. And he's working hard to earn that forgiveness, in spite of the fact that he knows that a lot of people will never give it.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I have always loved reading posts, or articles of Sutton. I could never word it like Rappster, but he summed up my reasons.

a few points:

1. If you had had a girl instead of a boy you'd have a vastly different opinion..

2. In terms of the character of the athletes on his team. Triathletes are a self absorbed bunch and that's what it takes to reach the top of any sport. But to overlook this 'transgression'..well, im sorry, i don't know how you do it. If he had done the same thing as a gas station attendant who coached part time and never reached his current status no one , not a single person on this board who support him in anyway. But since he is the almighty coach of world champion triathletes he automatically will have more people 'forgiving' than normally would. That being said, he certainly has a right to make a living. I'm sure he's paid over and over for his sins.

3. Some crimes are just not forgivable...

4. It's no one's place to forgive except for that teenage girl. Does anyone have any idea if she has 'forgiven' him? Did she turn out all screwed up?

Gotta disagree here. You may argue consensuality of a 16/17 year old and I might buy that based upon maturity, life experience, but I would still err on it being immoral, less immoral if the ages are close, like a 18 year old with a 16 year old. Still wrong. Something I have and lived by being off limits.

14 / 15? Sorry. especially this day and age, far to over sexualized and the mental capacity / maturity is not there, not to mention the manipulative difference of someone in a position of authority who can often be looked to as having that persons "best interests" involved.

the person in question ultimately may have been a "willing" participant, but that still does not rise, at least in my moral and understanding of the term, to a consensually possible outcome. That is why the act is considered statutory rape. Person may have been willing, or person may have in fact been the aggressor, morality and the law says it is a no-no, and it is up to the adult to control their hormones, understand the consequences

x2

Parents entrust their pride and joy to coaches all over the world. Coaches of teenagers have a far greater responsibility than a random adult. There is a very good reason why he is banned from coaching is Australia and it is because he crossed over one of the basic lines that should never be crossed in coaching teens. Sorry, on this one, I give him no second chances. At least here in Canada (and I am sure they have the equivalent in Oz) in the Intro to Community Coaching Module that you have to take in every NCCP course (regardless of sport) there is a big section devoted to that. I coach teens in an XC ski club and also coach the team at my son's high school. Both the national federations and the school boards are very up front of the expected behaviour of all coaches. Sorry Sutton....no forgiveness on this one!

For anyone to blame the 15 year old for seducing him is ridiculous. Nothing like blaming the rape victim....come on people, we're better than that (I hope).

I agree that it would have been unfortunate if Wellington continued to race in her current state. My point is that she apparently destroyed herself to the extent that her heart was no longer in it. She may well be the greatest long distance triathlete of all time, and she's no longer doing it. That, to me, is sad.

20+ children getting gunned down in Connecticut is horrific, not just sad. But it's interesting that's the only thing that registers on your emotional radar.

Cynical? Why do you think every other pro came running to him after his success with Chrissie? I doubt it was because they wanted to be best pals with him.. There is not exactly a lack of coaches to choose from out there and anyone who makes a decision on coaching has to weigh the pro and cons of the coach. I think most people would lie if they claimed Bretts past is not a relatively big con but obviously the athletes who still choose him over other high performance coaches think other things outweigh that. Not sure how anyone can dispute that.

The question of how bad it is to enable someone who commited his crime in the context of coaching to continue in that profession is one I'm not exactly sure of in this case, but it should probably never be taken lightly. I know some excellent people who are coached and have been coached by him and I don't question their character but at the same time the whole concept bothers me slightly.

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BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

Age of consent is 14 or 15 in many European countries: http://en.wikipedia.org/...of_consent_in_Europe

Maybe she accomplished all she ever wanted to, we'll never know. We assume so much nowadays.

No, mass murders aren't the only thing that registers on my emotional radar - another assumption.

"What could have been with Chrissie"

What the heck are you talking about... she accomplished everything and in many eyes, including my own, was the best ever. She was never beaten. What else more where you expecting? How many titles is enough?

Of course we lost something special when she retired.

I have heard I few people mention this dropped of to run back as a great coaching thing to do. How does that differ from finishing a 26 mile run from we're you start. The idea is so over looked. I had my wife drop we off 120 km away from penticton and rode one direction. It sucks I had a giant tail wind and was going 45- 50 km/ hr without hitting zone2.

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Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
http://Www.anthonytoth.ca, triathletetoth@twitter

I said as much in my original post. Impossible to say about her inner motivations and state.
But I loved having her in the sport and selfishly wish she hadn't retired.

Brett Sutton, is that you?

I don't think it is so much about running 26 miles, but instead the way that it was prescribed. Get out of the van, hi nice to meet you, here is your route. They had no idea until they were told to do so. Much different from a 26 mile run that is planned. To each their own though, lots of people don't think Sutton's ways work, but he must be doing something right.

For a guy who hammers other people about making assumptions, you are making a whole bunch yourself right there about my post. Why do you assume that I'm talking about titles? By not racing, her influence on the sport is diminished. I'm sure there are some who will disagree with that, but when she retired, she sacrificed a lot of her platform. I think Chrissie could have changed the sport in much, much more meaningful ways than just raising the bar on competition. She still might. But I think it will be harder to do that if she is not racing. Now, I don't think she needed to do that, by any means. She gave the sport and all of us a lot. But I think there was really no limit to what she could have done within the sport as a leader. And THAT is what I mean when I say "what could have been." And that's also what I think Brett is referring to.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

The age of consent in Canada was 14 until 2008 (changed to 16). Although in cases of authority the age is 18.


Although I agree with the base argument with respect to Sutton, I have trouble forgiving but simply because it would put me on a slippery slope towards supporting the reinstatement of Cecil Russell, something I am not inclined to do.

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"which is like watching one of your buddies announce that he's quitting booze and cigarettes, switching to a Vegan diet and training for triathalons ... but he's going to keep snorting heroin." Bill Simmons, ESPN

Fair enough. I'm more optimistic than you that she'll be able to actually make more change in her causes now that she'll have much more free time/energy. She can always use her athletic accomplishments from her past as credentials to be heard.

Hammering people? I hammer Dev regularly, I wasn't hammering the poster above.

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Chrissie said that she had given as much as she could to Ironman and was now moving on to persue other things in life.It was a hard decision for her but one she is very happy with..It is really that simple..

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Agreed. I also feel that any female IM Kona champ from 2012-2016ish will always be remembered mostly as champ-because-Wellington-retired in the theme of Carfrae's '10 win, Smyers' '95 or Welch's '94 with Allen absent.

But many respond with the "you can only race who shows up" cliche which is also fair.

You're a smart guy. I suggest you do a bit more research on the case, and also on the personality traits of people that commit the crimes such as the one Sutton committed. Everything that comes out of his mouth is for his own benefit. Manipulators are master conmen.

I'm happy she's happy, but athletic motivations are rarely simple.

Do you realize what you have written? An adult having a 'consensual relationship' with a 14 year old..? That's pretty sick.
Sutton & Lance - they'd make good pair. It's everyone else's fault.

His questionable behaviour didn't stop after the multiple incidents with the 14 year old girl.

He criticizes Mark Allen and Dave Scott as not being "real" coaches because they coach age groupers. But yet Chrissie left, in part, because Sutton was holding her back from receiving the pay she was truly worth as a pro.

How ironic that Chrissie eventually moved on to be coached by Dave Scott.

Even forgetting (or forgiving) Sutton's rape conviction, he continually reaffirms that he's not a world-class coach. Coaching is about more than making athletes winners in competition--it includes showing them how to professionally interact with competitors, the press, and the public without being catty or denigrating. He continually fails in this.

Save the drama queen act sweetheart.

I said that is was wrong. What I am saying is that there are degrees of wrong and what he did it is not in the same post code as what Sandusky did or what every second catholic priest has done all over the world that are still protected by that evil corporation, even today.

If you feel that what he did and molesting 6-12 year old boys are the same because there are no degrees of wrong, just either right or wrong, then go ahead. I just don't see it that way.

He has paid for what he did again and again and will continue to do so for the rest of his life. Its part of the reason he is doing so much good at the moment as he is trying to make amends.

And by the way, the girl in question married on of Australia's top triathletes (now Tri coach) and has been for over ten years. She's fine.

She's had a Spot of trouble though... if you really know the facts.

just curious as to what you feel chrissie could do to better the sport? (being sincere here)...

other than raising the bar for women's competition im really not sure what she's done. i dont see increased prize purses for pros. i dont know a single person who didnt know anything about triathlon before who now all of a sudden knows who chrissie is. i dont know any current triathletes who go 'im going to race more because of chrissie, shes so inspirational'...what am i missing here?

dont get me wrong shes a great personality and i love watching her race but im not sure what tangible impact shes had.

Seriously, not one? Dude, you need to meet more women triathletes. Plus learn how to use apostrophes.

If you were female you prolly would not see it that way.

Maybe but how many of those countries have a higher limit when the older party is an authority figure.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

You know, I draft up posts and delete them every time this subject comes up. I'll just give some comments as I was quoted in the article. I talked at length last summer with the author, and he picked out one sentence of our nearly hour long conversation. But, this post will be a summary of what the author of the InsideTri article and I talked on. There's an article from 2002 that summarizes the case against Brett pretty well as well as that against many other coaches. The accuser/victim, the husband of the victim, Brett, Brett's coaching methods at the time (same/similar as those presented in this latest article), and other similar stories of the time. This one is sourced out of the UK. And, I only write that as another point of reference. It's nothing new. And what also isn't anything new is that the same type of thing has become an epidemic in the US via USA Swimming. But, you guys don't rail on that as much here.

I draft these posts up and delete them because what good is it going to do? I'm not trying to change minds. I'm just providing my opinion, and opinions are like @$$holes everyone has one. So, there I said it. And, of people who frequent this message board, there are only a few to my knowledge who have any real business posting about Brett and his conduct towards his athletes. Yes, Amy and I are two of those athletes who must have questionable morals for choosing to go to TeamTBB and work with Brett. Suffice to say I'm willing to stack my morals up against anyone's, but go ahead and question them like some of you have Rapp's. I'm not going to justify our decision for being coached by Brett and TeamTBB. Suffice to say we knew the history. Me because I've been in this sport since 88 and remember one of the first interviews ever done with Sutton, which might have been here on this site as I remember a quote from it being that "Carlson got to Sutton"...before a lot of people on this board were involved in triathlon. And, I made sure that Amy knew the entire history as well. Actually, here's the article http://www.slowtwitch.com/...opinion/carlson.html Dan writes an op-ed that still rings true. But, Dan has a way of writing or at least op-eding that doesn't sit well with a lot of people on somewhat controversial subjects.

So, why am I writing this? I don't know. I know exactly where I stand on things related to Brett Sutton. The only regret, if you want to call it that, about racing with TeamTBB is that it was a risk for a 35 year old pro that resulted in mediocre results. His coaching style isn't for everyone. It has been described as throw a dozen eggs against the wall and maybe one will survive, but they aren't all physically broken. And there might be some truth to that 1 in 12 statement depending on who you deem to be a success on the team or from all of his athletes not just the superstars. But, really I don't think that is accurate about his coaching in the sense that most mean. Never at any point in time did Amy feel 'at risk' nor did I. Brett is a coach who cares about his athletes, but a lot of you aren't going to see that in this post and no amount of writing might convince you otherwise or at least change your opinions of the man. I'm not here to do that either. You are just going to see a little troll of a man who committed a crime, never really paid for it in your eyes, and should never ever be allowed to coach again or have anything to do with triathlon.

You won't read the fact that there is a lot of truth to what he says. You won't know that he tells aspiring coaches that what he did is the worst thing you could do as a coach and that he's still paying for it. And he tells them at the same time, it is one of the failings of many coaches...that temptation. You won't see that he's got some great ideas about the sport. You won't note that unlike a lot of those who are in the sport to get theirs and only theirs, that he's in the sport first because he loves it and is passionate about it. Yes, he wants to get his as well, but I've really seen a lot of efforts made for the improvement of the sport as well. Improvements that hit on a lot of the same topics that are hit upon in this forum for pros, age groupers, race directors, etc. Dan has questioned at times and written about whether or not various people or groups being a steward of the sport. Brett is that.

To Bjorn. I hear what you are saying, and some of it rings true. Brett is really the glue that holds TeamTBB together and a lot of athletes are there because of Brett. But, a lot of athletes are there because of the promise of sponsorship, equipment, and coaching all under one umbrella. That is what initially brought us to the team, the complete package of sponsorship and coaching with very little expense outside of getting to and being at the camps and some prize money %age. It might have changed a bit in 2012, but we don't know. It really does beat the pants off of trying to do it all yourself AND find a world class coach all wrapped into one.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Great stuff Tex.

You are of course free to be coached by Sutton for any reason you choose. And I won't question your morals for doing so, even if your decision was born mostly out of convenience (wanting the package deal of sponsorship and coaching with little front-end expense). He may be remorseful for his crime, and he may have paid a high price. He also may have some great ideas about triathlon that many could learn from.

That, however, does not change my opinion that the price he should pay for his crime is a lifetime ban from coaching. But because I have no influence over that, my choice is to simply consider him a persona non grata. I likewise feel that way about any athlete who chooses to be coached by him, and any companies that sponsor his team.

My choice may or may not be logical or fair, but that's what it is until someone changes my mind otherwise.

The letters Dan received in reply to that column are worth reading. Among them is a letter from Sutton himself that is definitely worth reading.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/.../opinion/sutton.html

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Agree about the letters being very good. That column also reminded me that the crazy-flashing ST ads literally were the reason that I installed adblock on my computer (although I think it was some other flash-blocker that existed before adblock?).

Your posting that link led me to see this piece written by Dan for the first time. I really can't believe someone as smart as Dan would write that, although I guess I shouldn't be surprised given his continuing (until recently) head-in-the-sand attitude about Lance.

Dan's wrong, Sutton isn't our sport's Pete Rose, preying on a minor is a world apart from betting on baseball. And Pete Rose is banned for life from baseball, unfortunately we can't say the same about Sutton. He has every right to be a contributing member of society, but no right in my opinion to be in a position of authority over others such as a teacher or coach.

I've seen your friendship develop with Sutton just via your tweets over the past few months and I must say, it kind of sucks to see. You're free to do as you choose certainly, and I guess I'm free to be disappointed.

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Portside Athletics Blog

Forgive me for being short, it is flu season and our resources are stretched thin trying to figure out who has the sniffles and who has the flu. Maybe it isn't as tiring as a Brett Sutton workout, but when you get to tell a kid he can go home and play Xbox with his brother it makes the long days worth it. Reminds me why I chose to work in a children's hospital- kids are precious and innocent and it is all of our responsibilities to keep them safe.

That having been said, we can now stack morals. I spend my days, and lately nights, trying to keep kids healthy and safe. You work for and publicly defend a man who as a 27 year old male used his position of authority to sexually abuse a 14 year old girl. A crime he pleaded guilty to and never spent a day in prison for. He is, however, contrite about the whole ordeal. Are we done stacking?

Look, here is the truth. I don't think you or Jordan or Chrissie or any other member of team tbb are bad people for working with Brett. I think you all know that interactions with him can aid your careers and I think you are willing to buy the line he has managed to sell you about him molesting a 14 year old girl. None of you would have given him a chance if he wasn't as good a coach as he is. And none of you would work with him if he didn't convince you that he is remorseful and reformed. Thing is, I am fairly certain Sutton knows all this and knows his success depends on convincing folks to look past his actions.
You aren't bad people; you are people buying a load of crap from a piece of shit. I think the professional success that piece of shit can offer is what brought you in the door to the showroom and I think the convincing sales pitch is what sold you. You aren't bad people, you are just human.

These same people who will support Sutton and talk about how he is reformed and his actions don't matter because time has passed or the girl is now happily married (that one totally blew my mind) are the same ones who want to see LA destroyed for doping and being an asshole to people even if he were to come out and confess. This is not a defense of LA it's simply unbelievable where some people place their priorities.

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Except I don't work for him or the team. That is the truth.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Maybe I really am tired to have misread this?

2010/2011. Work with = be coached by during those two years.

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Brandon Marsh - Website | @BrandonMarshTX | RokaSports | 1stEndurance | ATC Bikeshop |

Wow! So marrying a top triathlete makes you fine? WTF?

Most/all child rape victims marry. Yes it is RAPE. A 14 y.o. CANNOT have consensual sex with a 30 y.o. PERIOD.

Is it the top triathlete that makes her "fine" or the getting married?

14 year olds are protected by law for a reason. Their brains are not developed and cognitively they are unable to weigh long term consequences or adequately understand when people are being honest and when they are manipulating them. Which is why predators groom victims.

"Well, she signed that contract when she was 14 and lost all of her inheritance money but she married a top triathlete so she's fine".

Same thing. Although she lost much, much more than money.

Shame on you.

He works for you or did once upon a time ...ok

Would you hire Victor Conte of Balco to provide you legit and legal nutritional product that would help your performance, knowing the implications?

Would you hire Dr. Michele Ferrari if he were to provide you legit and legal medical services, knowing the implications?

I can't imagined what Brett Sutton is providing you all that is so great and above and beyond what other great coaches are providing that you would associate your names to him. I would imagine that image, perceived or otherwise, ranks pretty high up there for a professional athlete of any sport. Why would any triathlete associate with Sutton, knowing the baggage that is involved, eludes me.

If any major league baseball player, NFL, NBA, or pro runners were to hire Victor Conte and Michele Ferrari to help them, even in a legit manner, I would imagine their sponsors would be up in arms. I would also imagine them loosing some fans because of it.

I would tend to believe that if you were to hire Lance to be your cycling coach that you would also loose some fans even though he can probably make you a much better cyclist. I would think that some sponsors would shy from you also.

Wouldn't the smart thing to do is to shy away from a person with such controversy? If I were an Olympic podium caliber triathlete, I wouldn't touch Brett with a 10 foot pole even if it guaranteed me a podium spot. Everyone out there would look at my medal with a raised eyebrow even if I did nothing illegal or unethical.

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My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

Ouch! Brandon... enjoyed your Slowtwitch showcase article. And have been a fan. But DUDE!!!!

Bad PR.

As an athlete that needs fans/supporters (i.e. showing to your sponsors that you can influence people's buying decisions) posting on a thread tacitly supporting a convicted child rapist... Not a good idea.

Shit.

Not only did you compromise yourself but Amy as well.

Advice for the future. DO NOT EVER POST ON CONTROVERSIAL TOPICS! NO MATTER WHAT!

Now you are the dude associated with Brett Sutton. If you had a PR person they would be shitting in their pants.

Crap! Now when I see yours or Amy's results... first thought... they like the child rapist.

Head in hand. Shaking head. Wondering how I an reconcile this.

So much black and white viewing in this issue. It was a bad thing he did, he has paid for it and continues to pay and pay and suffer. Some on the typical Slowtwich lynch mob sit on their high horse with burning rods ready to burn him at the stake. Save me the shame on you histrionics please. I was just pointing out that the girl's life was not ruined and that is was consensual, and that he took a plea bargain to avoided sullying her name by making these statements himself in court. I understand there was a massive abuse of power and trust there and it was a terrible thing to do, but for me it's not enough to write a man off for life. Understand that for those ponitficating they have a right to their view too.
These are the details that those who have work with him and defend him are aware of and although I can't speak on their behalf I'd guess probably the reason they decided to work with him. He doesn't coach anyone under the age of 18 and seems to be only be a force for good in our sport and society these days.

He should pay every day until he dies.


Not a day should pass where he does not think of what he did and the reality that he breached the trust of society.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

For the record, I am not now and never have been a part of Team TBB. Brett is not now and never has been my coach. I do not "work with" Brett in any capacity. I do not seek his advice, input, or anything else in any capacity that would further my career. What knowledge I have gleaned from him, I have gleaned from what he writes on twitter, interviews he does, etc. There is no weighing of "well, on the one hand, Brett abused a minor, but on the other hand, he could help me win a lot of races." I have none of that. I do not ask Brett for advice. I have a coach - Michael Krueger. I trust him, and I do not need to second guess what he's doing with Brett. Just so we are clear.

I haven't been brought into any showroom. I haven't bought a load of crap. But you are right that I am human. And in being human I thought about the mistakes that I've made in my life. And some of them have been pretty massive. I've thought about the fact that I don't know this man at all outside of two things - 1) he committed a heinous crime that he owned up to and 2) he seems to care a great deal about making right for a very, very serious wrong that he committed. So I decided that it was not my place to judge him. And I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt.

After Ironman Texas, Brett wrote a short but complimentary tweet about me. So I asked Brandon for Brett's email. I wrote to Brett and said, paraphrasing slightly for brevity, "I saw what you wrote on twitter. Thank you. But you should know that I've said some pretty harsh and condemning things about you in very public forums. I feel badly about having done that, because I realized I don't actually know you or really know what happened other than - at best - some 3rd hand accounts. I assumed you were a scumbag because you did something awful. But people change. And based off what I know about you from people whose opinion I value - like Brandon - you don't actually seem like a scumbag. Anyway..."

I didn't really write it expecting much of a reply. I just wrote it because I did not feel good about having sat in judgement - like plenty of folks on this thread have done and are doing - of someone I don't really know. That's not the person I want to be. That's it. That's why I wrote to Brett. And when he wrote back, he wrote something very similar to that letter to Dan. He thanked me, but said he lives with what he's done every day. And nothing can change that. But he's doing his best to try and make up for it. I take him at his word. If you don't that's fine. But ours is not a relationship of personal gain. I don't profit from Brett. And he doesn't profit from me.

I wrote to him most recently - I write about once a month or so - because I enjoyed his blog about kids' sports. And because I didn't know he was a father - he has two sets of kids from two marriages - 25, 22, 21 from #1 and 9 & 7 from #2. We talked a bit about running shoes. And then he asked me to share the post about the kids. He told me that he doesn't really care about people reading his coaching stuff, but that he cared a lot about the way we are affecting our kids through sport, and that he'd appreciate my sharing that post. Now, maybe that's a load of crap. And maybe I bought it. I'll accept that. I just don't want to be that cynical. I don't think the world is that dark. And I hope I never do...

To the poster who said Brett is not Pete Rose, I think you misunderstand the analogy. What Pete did - fundamentally - was to violate trust. That's the same thing that Brett did. Pete violated his stewardship of the game. Brett also violated his stewardship. Now, this is certainly not to equate statutory rape with betting on baseball. It's to analogize that their crimes directly impacted their role as stewards. E.g., if Brett had committed the same crime with a girl who Brett was not coaching, Dan would not have drawn that analogy. It is the violation of trust by a steward that led Dan to make that analogy. If you focus only on the severity of the crimes, you miss that. And I think it's important. I respect that other people may not.

What troubles me about this thread, more than anything, is that everyone assumes that people are acting solely out of self-interest. Have we really all become Homo economicus or some sort of Ayn Rand-ian traders who care only "what's in it for me?" I pray - and I'm not any sort of religious - that we haven't...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Should he be barred from coaching or barred from coaching athletes below a certain age?
He still has to earn a living. He still has a contribution to make.

Is there never any redemption, released murderers live among us.

He is banned from coaching in Australia. Cecil Russell is also banned from coaching as is Graham James. Sutto could have walked away and took a job as a labourer.

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http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

 
"Save me the shame on you histrionics please. I was just pointing out that the girl's life was not ruined and that is was consensual"

Sure I get it. Guy in his 20's screws up and repents and tries to make amends. I get it. I've done it. Not the child rape thing but we all make mistakes.

I can see that a lifetime of good deeds could/should wash away a "youthful" (although 27 is not really "youthful", I would say "willful") indiscretion.

If I'm 27 and some 14 y.o. is rubbing up on me... I have to make a decision. (although I am VERY doubtful that that is the way it worked out).

But you SHOULD be ashamed of yourself by trying to minimize the impact that that sort of inappropriate relationship has on a young girl/boy. Not only it's immediate aftermath but for years (a lifetime) later. And to reiterate... a 14 y.o. girl CANNOT have consensual sex with an almost 30 y.o. male. Cannot happen. Period. There are no Lolitas. There are only predators.

Similar to the pediatrician who posted earlier I too have intimate knowledge of how this type of situation effects young people.

Hint: My sign on name... wait for it.... wait for it... ding, ding. The "psych" stands for something.

So, should a man be able to rehab his image after a fall from grace. Yes. But should his actions lose context over time. No. A 27 y.o. man had sex with a 14 y.o. girl. There is not a single Western society that thinks that that is O.K. The context for Sutton is that we do not know that it has happened again. Which is a good sign. Although, doesn't he run his camps in Southeast Asia? That might not be a good sign.

And should pro triathletes who value sponsorship dollars be supporting controversial figures with a background like Sutton's. No. Can they be coached by them. Yes. But quietly.

And I am all for forgiveness. Check out my posts on the LA thread. But doping vs. child rape is much, much different. Not everybody was raping children in those days.

and it was not "CONSENSUAL".

Any ladies want to chime in?

Considering TBB is a big ponzi scheme (ask any of their suppliers) it's interesting to see how well the athletes are paid...

I would understand this point if you added the word "minors" and have no qualms with it but for coaching adults I simply don't see why that should be a problem. As reasoned adults we know his past and can choose to either work with him or not and there is no risk associated with it. There are lots of things about lots of people I don't like, some of them I choose as friends\acquaitances others I don't and the same principle applies here

"For the record, I am not now and never have been a part of Team TBB. Brett is not now and never has been my coach. I do not "work with" Brett in any capacity...

And then he asked me to share the post about the kids. He told me that he doesn't really care about people reading his coaching stuff, but that he cared a lot about the way we are affecting our kids through sport, and that he'd appreciate my sharing that post."

You may not "work with" him, but he's working with you. Using your credibility to increase his own. Here's the cynical view, he's a manipulator and he knows you are a nice guy with a huge audience. Did you ever think he might be using you for his own gain even if you aren't using him for yours?

To the poster who said Brett is not Pete Rose, I think you misunderstand the analogy. What Pete did - fundamentally - was to violate trust. That's the same thing that Brett did.

That was me, and no Jordan, you're absolutely wrong. I have tremendous respect for you, but I so wish you'd stop saying stuff like this. All violations of trust aren't the same, violating the trust of a sport versus sexually abusing a minor don't even fall on the same spectrum of "trust violations".

Now, this is certainly not to equate statutory rape with betting on baseball.

That's what Dan, and now you are doing.

It's to analogize that their crimes directly impacted their role as stewards.

You might think you're doing that, but you're actually doing the above.

If you focus only on the severity of the crimes, you miss that.

What else to focus on?

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Portside Athletics Blog

I am a woman, and a physician. And a teacher seduced me in high school. The director of a play I had a lead role in. As a 15 year old girl I was flattered and confused. It has DEFINITELY colored my relationships over the years. But of course avagoyamug would say I am fine because I went on to marry and have children and a successful career.

My experience as a Family Medicine Physician and as a woman is this haunts you for LIFE. Not only did Sutto have sex with a minor, he was her COACH he was in a position of trust! As a society we frown on that even in adults.

14 year old girls LOOK older - appear seductive. Part of what is going on is they are testing out their new sexuality. The job of the adults entrusted in the care of these young people is to keep firm boundaries.

Sutto violated that period.

I will not forgive his actions nor forget regardless of what contributions he gives as a coach to the sport of triathlon. He can state how it haunts him - it should.

Unlike peeing in the pool this is a moral lapse and Sutto is damaged morally. Those who choose to brush that aside can justify it any way they want. The facts remain.

I am a mother.
It greatly disturbs me that Coach Sutton, convicted child molester, claims the minor athlete trusted to his care "consented".
Her parents trusted him sufficiently to make him a "godfather" of her sibling.

I find I cannot cheer for athletes on TBB.
I don't want Sutton to get any more spotlight as a coach.
Had I known about his past and Cervelo's sponsorship at the time, I would never have purchased my P3.

Since you asked.

Had I known about his past and Cervelo's sponsorship at the time, I would never have purchased my P3.

I stopped following Jonathan Caron's blog after he joined Team TBB a few years ago and always kind of cringe when I see those black/white/pink uniforms crossing the finish line.

This forum skewered Matty Reed for the fact that he planned to get some cycling training advice from Tyler Hamilton, to the point that Reed then abandoned that plan. The sport's tolerance for this guy is shocking.

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Portside Athletics Blog

There has been plenty of comment on other elements of Sutton/Article, but from a sheer high performance standpoint, it is so interesting to me to see the difference in his style versus that of some other "coaches of champions," which just goes to show that like most debates on ST, the answer is often grey, and comes down to a matter of what works for a certain type of athlete. Some athletes need to give total control (e.g., by that I mean literally they cannot know their own power) to a coach, and others benefit from a more mutual/communicative understanding of their physiology and training...again, I think this has a lot more to do with the athlete than the coach.

In terms of giving back to the community, personally, I don't see Sutton writing a few posts here and there that can be quite hard to follow (I get English may not be his first language and can appreciate that, but I'm sure someone on his team could help him edit) and otherwise being very secretive/short is too heroic, especially when there are other "coaches of champions" out there like Matt Dixon that write regularly, provide tons of great educational material through websites, regular interviews, etc., etc.

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Brad Stulberg
Author, Peak Performance
http://www.BradStulberg.com

well said

General reply to this thread. I think many good points have been discussed. As a coach in youth sport for 12 years, and currently coaching teens in both clubs and high schools, I don't want to see anyone with a past like Sutton remotely close to the coaching ranks. Coaches are not just people who impart technical skills in a sport. We have to be role models for the kids, give them skills for life, guide them towards what is right and what is not right, teach them about goal setting, execution, winning, losing and fair play. Parents entrust coaches to impart all of this to their kids. It takes a village to raise a child, and there are some things parents cannot do, so they hand their kids off to sports coaches, piano teachers, academic teachers and so on, to make their kids better humans and prepare them for adult life. Sutton failed all of us with his actions.

To Ironpsych, it might be unfair to just pick on Brandon here as he is one of many athletes and is kind enough to actually come here to ST and post on many topics. Many pro athletes much more prominent than him have entrusted their development as adult professionals to Sutton. We can name Caroline Steffen and Chrissie Wellington among that top tier. Going back a decade Siri Lindley and Loretta Harrop (if I recall correctly). Do all criminals in society deserve a second chance to reform themselves? I think the answer is yes.

Does Sutton deserve to be still coaching after violating that most fundamental foundation in his role as a coach. I lean towards no and so does the Australian government. But enough people have leaned towards yes, and there have been no further incidents that anyone is publicly aware of, that maybe (just maybe) he is a reformed man, with the wisdom that comes with age. I don't know the answer to that, but before we throw all Team TBB athletes under the bus, let's think it through. I'm glad to throw Sutton under the bus 1000 times for what he did many years ago as there is no excuse for what he did with his athlete. His current athletes, they know more about him than you or I.

They are adults and need to make their own decisions and I am sure they all weigh the upside of what they can achieve with him with the moral dilemma of association with his past. Bjorn said things very well above. I can see how people might train under him, but for me personally, it just does not sit well. There are many areas in triathlon that Sutton could earn a living in outside of coaching, and I'd have preferred to see that path as everyone should be able to earn a living, once they are reformed past their conviction and served their penalties and re integrated into society.

Yep.

Well said. I just don't get why he gets any semblance of a "pass".

I can't help but view anything he touches without a bit of skepticism.

No.

Some of us are actually capable of having the position that Sutton committed a serious crime and should suffer those consequences, and that LA doped, lied and coerced others, and that he, too, should suffer those consequences.

I do my best to avoid Sutton and LA discussions now because there is little to gain from them. Nobody is going to change their positions....it is what it is.

It is very difficult for to find respect for those who are willing to cast aside Sutton's past. He may very well be truly repentant and I hope that he is.....but some crimes are of such a heinous nature that the perpetrator of those crimes deserves little compassion.

Sutton is free to try and make a living from coaching....just as I am free to ignore his teachings / advice. If he told me he could make me a Kona contender within a year, I still wouldn't heed his teachings.

YMMV.

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"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

Where is the disagreement, in light of what you wrote after this?

I appreciate as someone I've always found to be a person who considers the potential consequences of their actions, that you've still chosen to make public at least an email friendship with Sutton. He's a talented coach to be sure, and if we are to believe his transgression was a 1 time thing, then it's something to consider. A person can be reformed in my mind. With all the talk of doping and former dopers around here, there are some who I honestly believe even if told there was no chance of ever being caught, that some of them would never cross that line again. It doesn't vindicate him from the crime, but it's possible to see how a person can make a single mistake in their life and not have it become more than that. is the guy truly a sexual predator or merely someone who let his life get out of control? Hard to say. No way of knowing whats in a guys mind, but to me it's the action that makes the difference. I don't know that much about his crime, other than what has been reported here, but it's challenging to be sympathetic, but that as far as we know he has never re-offended, I think that's a positive sign.

As for Chrissie, sure, she'd probably have a bigger platform (as more people come to the sport every day), but the racing isn't in her heart now, I applaud she has stepped away. She certainly has stayed active, and her twitter following doesn't seem to be suffering for it. I don't know how effective her fundraising is, because she isn't making a big production of it. She just seems to be going out and doing it. the causes she's working for; health, women in sport, etc. I actually think she's doing things the right way, making a difference not being self congratulatory; being the same as a person as she was as a racer.

Brett most certainly does profit from you. He profits from you coming on Slowtwitch and using your credibility to support him.

And if I interpret your post correctly, you changed from thinking he was a scumbag to a reformed man simply because he tweeted nice about you and sends you some emails?

The whole point about being a "nation of laws, not men," is that we don't need to evaluate the character of someone to determine if they've committed a crime. In theory, good guys who are successful in their field shouldn't get less harsh treatment than non-productive bums.

He raped a teen girl. By definition, that makes him a scumbag. A forever scumbag? In my eyes, yes (no matter how contrite he now is). Apparently not in yours. But I'm surprised that you'll use his contribution to the sport as one of the criteria for deciding if he's reformed. What on earth can you possibly know about his heart, intentions and thinking? That he knows how to sweet talk on email is about all.

And why is he so important to the sport that you're on here promoting him?

FWIW, I think Lance is a sociopath, is borderline evil, and hope he never gets to compete or have anything to do with endurance sport again. Ive been shouting his evilness and phonyness from the roof tops for years.

But am a big fan of Sutton and think he knows more about triahtlon than any poster on this forum and his current influence on triathlon and in the world is only for the good.

So it's not the same people defending both, its just people can see different issues differently.

Reading your drivel makes me sick. Although finding out you feel LA actions are worse then Sutton's merely confirms the level of your degeneration. Since you obviously know jack shit about the realities of Sutton's actions the reason he took a plea was not to protect the victim. The reason more of these cases don't go to trial is the additional trauma the victim's would have to go through appearing on the stand and so many of them are plead down leaving the molester with a paltry penalty compared to the crime that helps idiots like you to justify their inane support.

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Just clarifying that people can be consistent in criticizing both parties. The implication form the above post is that people who support one automatically damn the other. Such an assertion is silly.....there are people who support Sutton AND Lance, people who damn Sutton and support Lance and people who support neither.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

I think the quote was expressing confusion that some would villify LA, but seem to go out of their way to support/forgive Sutton.

Jordan your support/friendship of Sutton is a bit of a catch-22. On one hand your accessibility on here and explanations of your thought process is something we all appreciate. Conversely you have lost a LOT of credibility with me and many others with this. For someone as intelligent as you it's surprising that all it took to turn you around on him was a supportive tweet and an email. You think he's not going to come off as credible to you? It's something straight out of the LA PR playbook. It's even more disturbing that you would actively share and promote anything he put out related to kids, sports and coaching. That just dropped you even lower. Although what he says may make sense there are plenty of other credible sources with the same message who didn't do what he did.

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I cringed and did a double take when I read what Rapp wrote concerning what you stated (in bold).

Just imagined the feedback from the football if an NFL player came out and said he and Sandusky had been corresponding via emails. Through those emails, said NFL player is now convinced that Sandusky has recognized the errors of his ways by trying to make amends by trying to promote pee-wee league football. Most reasonable people would cringe, just like most people would cringe at the Rapp's statments that you highlighted.

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My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

Just for definition sake: boyfriend and girlfriend of 15 and 13 2 years 4 months about. When he turns 18 and she's got 4 months until 16, is that immoral? When she's 16 or 17 is that still wrong? is it only wrong if they have sex? What if the girl turns 18 first and the boy is just shy of 16. Please tell me the moral guidelines there.

Nothing. And that's why I chose to change my opinion in advance of anything else. I decided to stop thinking the worst and to take a more optimistic view. I changed my opinion before I ever wrote to Brett. Maybe I'm a sucker. I can live with that.

I should be dead. But I'm not because some random stranger decided to do something remarkable. Of course, some other random stranger decided to do something terrible. But I'd rather assume the best in people, because I just find that to be the worldview I want to pass on to my son.


What else should I use?


Because he has a lot of wisdom to share. And because I think if there's one thing that the sporting world, triathlon in particular but sports in general, is short on, it's real wisdom.


For the record, I think that he's a forever scumbag too. And I think that he believes he's a forever scumbag too. I just don't think that's ALL he is.

It's human nature to assume that people are basically all X, whatever X is. It's in our basic psychology. We have a very hard time reconciling that good people do bad things and vice versa. You see this in particular with Lance. People believe he didn't dope because of his charity work. And on the flipside, people believe his charity work is a sham because of his massive crimes with regards to doping. I believe that his charity work is genuine and that he genuinely cares about cancer patients. The mission Livestrong makes sense when you think about why Lance almost died - it was not that his cancer was rare or untreatable; it was that he didn't get the right advice early enough, which is what - in part - Livestrong aims to do. People like to quote the 2007 article on Charity Watch that says it cost Livestrong "as much as 45 cents to raise $1." And they ignore the fact that as of 2011 - using 2010 returns - over the history of the charity, over $0.80 of every $1 has gone directly to programs/outreach/etc. I believe that Livestrong is legitimate for the exact same reason that I believe Lance was a fraud and a cheat as an athlete - it's the consensus based on evidence. The tax returns, the Livestrong employees (you don't think one Livestrong employee would roll on Lance if it was a fraud?), etc. Just like it's impossible to say that Lance did not commit atrocious acts of intimidation, fraud, malice, etc as an athlete with all of the evidence surrounding that, I think it's equally impossible to say that Livestrong does not do good work. Now, that's a very hard thing to reconcile in our brains. The easiest way to do it is to assume that the charity work is just a facade. But I don't believe that. I think it's genuine. I think he genuinely cares about the work that Livestrong does in a (mostly) altruistic way. And I also think he's a pathological liar, a fraud, a cheat, and worse. He forced athletes to put their lives at risk by doping; he ruined careers and reputations willfully and vindictively. I think he operates at more polar extremes than the typical person, but I think everyone has good and bad in them. I think it's rare that someone can be so skewed, but I don't believe it's impossible. I would certainly like to see Lance held accountable for his crimes to a much greater degree than he has been. He RUINED a lot of lives. But he also made a profound positive difference in a lot of lives. I want him to pay for his crimes. And to pay dearly. But I don't want to see him totally destroyed as a human being. I don't want to see done to him what he did to others. I do not want, "an eye for an eye." I understand that other people do, and I respect that. I'd just ask that people respect that other people's sense of justice may differ.

Is Brett manipulative, authoritarian, and otherwise precisely the kind of the person who would prey on a female minor over whom he had authority. Yes, he is. And he did precisely that. But I also think he's a father and a mentor who cares a lot about people. I expect that whatever lead him to make that terrible, terrible decision is still very much a part of his psyche. But I also don't think it's his whole person.

The world is most comfortable to our brains when it's black and white. But I don't actually think the world is very black and white. Or, more specifically, I don't think that people are very black and white. Actions? Sure. Brett committed - no shades of grey - an atrocity. But does that make him - as a person - an atrocity? I don't want to take that view of the world. If people think less of me because of that, I'm okay with that.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

In scenario what is the State, country or province. Immoral, probably not, illegal, possibly.

It also depends on the norms and culture of the state/country the people are in.

If you take the US, age of consent ranges from 16 to 18 generally. If you take Alaska for example, age of consent is 16, but there is an age gap allowance, so a 15 year old I think could have sex with a 16 year old still can be a crime, but lesser than statutory rape, but an 18 year old would be statutory rape. Alaska also would allow where I believe is the 16 year old used a fake ID to get into a dance club and that same 18 year old took her home, even though should be statutory, the fact that he had a reasonable expectation that she was 18 and screened, means he has a shot at getting off. Now if that was Alabama, no nice. Mistake of age is not a defense.

Massachusetts - if she is under 16, it is illegal regardless.

Now where this gets tricky for your boys and girls playing at home... and shame on you for not asking the real "Devils Advocate" question... what if you are in Massachusetts, and BOTH parties are under 16. In fact, I am not even going to specify gender since Massachusetts will free wheel so much... (Though technically I think sodomy is still illegal regardless of gender... ) Technically under Mass Law, I believe both parties could be charged with rape. Makes you wonder if you can have a "victimless crime" if both parties can be thought of criminal defiling each other.

Also not handled by your question of morality is the mental capacity of one of the participants. You in fact could have a 15 year old sleep with an 18 year old, and if the 18 year old had a mental defect, I may think of the the 15 year old being the immoral one and the 18 year old not responsible for their actions.

This is the problem with living in the microcosm of the ST triathlon world and only thinking in the small context of sport. You and the athletes he coaches are adults though and are free to balance his crime against what benefit he can provide you, or in your case "triathlon" as you claim. You apparently don't even feel he has lost the credibility to speak on issues related to coaching children let alone adults and support him as a source of knowledge in that sphere over others who don't share his background.

Actions affect credibility though and his have an effect on his ability to speak to issues related to kids. Your decision to support him affects your credibility on all the topics you speak on. I know I trust you a lot less now then before when you espouse a position or opinion given your ability to overlook and support Sutton. You obviously don't care as you stated above though.

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I am generally good about considering the world being shades of grey and I don't need to like or hate all aspects of a given person, and should be able to step back and accept a person's positive attributes while not supporting his negative ones.

On the coaching front though, I have difficulty separating Sutton's technical capabilities specific to triathlon from his moral/role model responsibilities as a coach in stewarding athletes, specific young impressionable ones over which he has great influence, who may not be able to exercise full adult judgement themselves. For a coach, both go hand in hard. Obviously many are able to make that separation, but perhaps for me, since my largest coaching role is with young impressionable athletes, I just can't get past it. Yesterday, I was on skis with 9 teenage girls of the exact age bracket that Sutton preyed on. Just the thought of him being on the field with us at the same time was really hard to deal with.

He may have moved on and reformed as a person, but like a doctor or a teacher, or a psychologist with a professional designation, if you use your position to transgress the confidence of those whose care you are been entrusted with, then you are removed from the profession. In my view, coaches need to be held to the same standard. No second chances.

"Just like it's impossible to say that Lance did not commit atrocious acts of intimidation, fraud, malice, etc. . ." (Rappstar)

Do you believe LA's teammates were afraid of being incinerated by him (Tygart)?

Lance is super human, but not that super human?

Some of this Lance rhetoric is an exaggeration. Overall, if Jordan can forgive Mr. Sutton, he can soften his position on Lance. Maybe not today, but some day!

Please don't try to hijack what is a fairly serious thread topic with more of your inane LA comments. We all know you support him. I fall on that side as well. Take it somewhere else though.

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So you think the fact that he committed statutory rape means that he shouldn't be allowed to offer comments on the athletic development of children? I fail to see how those two things are related.

"I think that it's crazy that we have our young kids doing core exercises and running in 'stability' shoes."

"Your opinion doesn't matter because you raped a child."

Is that, in summary, what you are saying? That doesn't make any sense to me.

And you think less of me because I choose to forgive him for the crime which he committed? That makes more sense to me, because I understand that it's important that we share a basic understanding of morality and consequence. But I'm not saying what Sutton did is okay; I'm just saying I don't believe it defines him as a person.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Read what Dev wrote. As usual he well thought out. Sutton lost his ability to ever have any place in the coaching world, especially related to kids, despite what you may think he brings to the table. You are free to disagree of course and support him as you continue to do. I think it's sad and reflects poorly on you. Simply my opinion though and one you've stated you're not worried about so there really isn't any value to debating it with you.

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I think this is a fair philosophy, but you seem to not share the same line of thinking when it comes to an athlete having a place in the athletic world after years of organized cheating.

Do you feel there is a significant distinction there, or do we as humans just tend to more easily forgive the people that we find inspiring or amazing?

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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We agree that a heinous action does not make a person entirely evil. In fact, I'd argue that the vast majority of criminals also have a lot of good qualities.

That said, "reform" doesn't mean doing good things in parts of life unrelated to the crime. It means reforming the characteristics that led to the crime. Sutton is still the manipulative, authoritarian coach searching for personal glory that he was at 27; they're the same qualities that led him to his crime, and the same qualities that make him say "FU" to the rest of the world.

Reform would be him recognizing that he abused his position as a coach so much that he should switch careers and start over. Reform would be dropping the manipulation and self-aggrandizement. Reform would be volunteering at USAT coaching certification programs and talking honestly about why he committed his crime, and the danger signals that other coaches should be aware of.

I see nothing of the wisdom you think he brings to triathlon. I see a lot of knowledge about training and racing. But wisdom is the ability to synthesize that knowledge into bigger life principles that transcend triathlon and sport. Sutton, through his actions and words, continually demonstrates that he is incapable of guiding himself--let alone his athletes--to be better human beings.

If he is in fact a father and mentor who cares a lot about people, why would it "totally destroy" him to do that in a medium outside of coaching? Lance can do good work through Livestrong, but shouldn't be involved in cycling/triathlon. Pete Rose can do lots of good for the world, as long as it's outside baseball. Why let Sutton off the hook? Why let him continue in the sport that he so violated? Why not insist that he move on?

Jordan, I appreciate that you don't want to stand in judgment of people's intentions, or speculate on the good or bad about people. But this is a man who acknowledged committing a terrible crime, so we're talking about facts, not speculation. It is, in fact, our job to stand in judgment of our peers/colleagues/friends who commit certain actions. To say, "Sure, but he's a good father and knows a lot about triathlon," is to abdicate the responsibility to punish those who we otherwise like. To ban him from triathlon and coaching is not the same as saying he is an entirely evil person.

I read what Dev wrote, and I agree it's well thought out. I agree with some. Disagree with other parts. But I don't think any less of Dev as a person because of what we disagree on.

That's what I find confusing about your stance. I don't have a problem disagreeing with you. That is what I am not worried about. And while I certainly respect your write to think less of me, it does make me sad.

In other words, I don't care that you and I have different opinions. But I do care that my opinion makes you think less of me as a person. Now, I'm not going to change my opinion simply to make you like me, but I think it's unfortunate that we can't agree to disagree and also maintain a respect for each other.

I think the Lance "debate" (which is less of debate than people shouting at each other) really has highlighted this here on this forum, but it's most pervasive in modern politics. And it troubles me. As someone who supports Lance, I thought you might have taken a less "with me or against me" attitude. I don't think less of you because you choose to have a different opinion of Lance than I do. FWIW, which maybe isn't very much...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I really don't want to devolve this thread into another LA one. See my comment to Tribeer above.

That said I simply don't care about what LA and did nothing is going to get me to. I fully appreciate people and their position who feel LA nor Sutton have a place in sport. They argue from a consistent place. If you somehow feel that LA's actions are worse then child molestation, and that is what it was despite some of the idiots who want to shade it grey on here, thenI have some serious issues with where you draw the line on right and wrong. Sure LA doped, he broke rules, probably caused some pain and suffering in the lives of others but for me that doesn't reach the level of what Sutton did. I have no issue with you disagreeing with my lack of care regarding LA but comparing the actions of both is a sliding scale and Sutton falls far lower down. If you live in a world of black and white morality, and I don't think you at least do, then it would be impossible to reconcile how I see it but most people aren't like that.

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A lot of the non american world doesn't care much about what Brett did either. Just different levels of 'shock and awe' there across cultures.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

Thanks. That was a great reply. Some stuff - a lot of stuff - I agree with. Other stuff, I just can't. I will give Nicola Spirig as a brief example. Brett wrote about her after the Olympics that they talked about what she should do now. Brett said that she and Reto Hug (her partner) should start a family; that she'd achieved everything there was to achieve in sport, and that what was important now was to pass on the gifts she had as an athlete and as a person. I read that post and saw it as genuine. Maybe you didn't read it. Maybe you did but drew a different conclusion. In any case, I disagree that there are no examples of him guiding his athletes to be better people.

He did the same with Chrissie. She struggled because she saw triathlon as "meaningless." Brett told that through triathlon, she could gain a platform that she could then use for meaningful change, which is what I think she wants to do now. Again, that doesn't seem to me to be the advice of someone who is incapable of guiding his athletes to better people.

I don't disagree that it would be appropriate to ban him from coaching minors. As far as I know, he doesn't coach minors. I don't think that he should be banned from coaching entirely - partly because I don't see how that's really enforceable - but I appreciate your reasons for why he should. And, in general, I don't disagree with any of what you wrote about needing to enforce the laws and morals of society. But I do disagree that there is no evidence of real wisdom.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I should have worded that differently. I don't think less of you as person it just affects how I view you as a spokesman and someone I listen to and look up to in the sport of triathlon. Your opinions and actions carry far more weight then mine do in the sport and you are going to get held to a much higher standard. There are a lot of people who feel that despite Sutton's apparent contrition for his actions, which I feel are much like LA's contrition will be in that he's just saying what he needs to, he has no place in coaching. Your support of him lends credence to his place in the sport though and touting his opinions on something related to kids lends even more support to an area of the sport he should absolutely never under any circumstance have a place or even deserve an opinion in.

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Dubai is a great place to race isn't it :-)

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Man I wonder what their take on this would be!

But yes it has been disturbing to me how little non americans care about that.

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Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
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Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter

That's fair. Thanks.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I don't have an argument to make or moral commentary but I do have a few questions about the Sutton/Team TBB approach...


One aspect about Sutton that I don't understand is why he is so openly confrontational in one aspect but seems to care a lot about his athletes and wanting to improve the sport in general. When it comes to his methods and rationale for training an athlete in a given way, he frequently comments that the rest of the world thinks he's an idiot. Aside from the moral questions (which Sutton has never tried to defend as far as I have read), what experts think Sutton is an idiot or that his methods are unsound? Even Sutton agrees that his approach is not for everyone (though he chalks that up to the athlete's psyche rather than the limitations of the Sutton method).

In regards to his approach to improving the sport (or at least making it more economically viable for pro triathletes), he appears equally confrontational. Does he feel that to improve the appeal of triathlon, a wrecking ball of a personality is needed to smash through the old ideas (e.g. that triathlon is just too boring for mass appeal)? I tend to see the merits of such an argument but the approach is rather curious. I don't really follow the guy much so I don't understand what Team TBB's long-term approach to improving the sport is. Is it the concept of coach/sponsor package to turn non-star pros into stars?

My jaw finally dropped..

Yes, as a matter of fact his opinion on coaching children does not count. He raped a child so, no, I don't want to hear his opinion. He lost that right when he touched that little girl. Hate to break it to you but he's not the only great coach in the world, as you personally know.

Some thing in life are so simple...YOU DONT TOUCH KIDS!!! Why can you not see that this should have life lasting ramifications. Triathlon is essentially a meaningless pursuit. His presence in the sport is not required for the sport to grow or life to continue.

When people are convicted of insider trading they are banned from the stock exchange. Why should this be any different and why can't you see that?

This is what Jordan wrote about the Sutton article. I'm not attacking you Jordan. You put it out there in public. I just don't see how you can write that as a parent.

"I feel privileged to have gotten to know Brett Sutton as a friend (over email) this past year. But I had no idea until today he was a father. Great read on parenting, kids, REAL development, and the insanity of what we are doing to our children athletically/physically. A great read."

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Those are two good examples of him advising athletes in ways that transcend sport. I'll accept that there may be more. And it does show that he can have a positive influence on people he's mentoring.

It doesn't, however, change my desire to see him stop coaching, and to see pro triathletes stop working with him.

I agree that we can use more wisdom in triathlon. But hundreds of coaches are upset that kids are doing core strengthening programs and wearing stability shoes. Let's highlight messages of wisdom from people who haven't violated basic tenets of the sport.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion.

Difference: Lance hasn't even apologized (yet) further he hasnt done anything to show he cares to make things better. What Sutton did was horrible, but by all accounts that one relationship was his only inappropriate one. he was punished (such as it was) and has cleaned up his act. Lance has very likely doped his entire career, and even when presented with multiple chances to clean up his act, failed to do so. recidivist behavior is the real indicator of whether or not a person has changed.

Going to say the same thing to you Ben I did to Tribeer. Can you seriously not find enough LA action elsewhere that you have to hijack every thread that might be remotely related?

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I don't disagree that it would be appropriate to ban him from coaching minors. As far as I know, he doesn't coach minors. I don't think that he should be banned from coaching entirely

Here's an analogy for you. I try to read what you write on here, and I follow both your tweets and your blog as I have found you to be an intelligent and interesting person whose views I enjoy reading. I know that you are pretty openly dismissive of our country's political system and financial institutions.

So people that commit political crimes, or commit some sort of financial fraud (whether at the institutional or individual level), should those people be allowed to return to their professions? Politicians, like policemen, teachers, coaches and few other professions have a tremendous amount of influence over people's lives. And financial institutions, as we all learned 5 years ago, as so interwoven into our country's poli/econ infrastructure that we can't do without them and are nearly at their mercy.

Would you trust a fraudalent banker or his institution with your parent's retirement? Should a politician convicted of using his/her position of authority for personal financial gain be allowed to hold another similar position?

And the hypotheticals above ignore the whole issue that in Sutton's situation it was a sexual crime against a minor, not a financial or political crime against an adult.

You break the trust of your profession, in my opinion you lose your ability to hold that same profession in the future.

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Portside Athletics Blog

Ehh I don't blame you if you are getting tired of defending yourself but here you go:

Sutton was in such desperate need to feel powerful that he manipulated a little girl into having sex with him. To the extent that forgiveness matters, it should only be given if he understands that power and control are nothing compared to love and compassion.

I don’t know him, but I have read a couple of his blogs, and honestly I see a pathetic man who has structured his entire life as a hierarchy where he sits firmly entrenched on top. So I view him the same way I view other child predators: Someone who is scheming for their next victim.

I just don't get it Jordan.

The short answer is that I think it depends. I think all of these hypotheticals require the same sort of black-and-white thinking that I don't think like.

I will preempt this next statement with saying that I don't believe this crime is at all comparable to what Sutton did. It's NOT statutory rape...

That said, President Obama's campaign was fined $375,000 for failing to disclose donors. It is among the highest fines ever levied by the FEC.

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/...federal-campaign-fec

Now, does this mean that I think Obama should be impeached? I do not.

Now, if you are asking me if Sutton should be barred from coaching minors? Yes I do. And - as far as I know - he does not coach any minors. His article on kids' sports was based on his own children. Do I think that he should have been barred from having children? Even though I mean that as a rhetorical question, I'll actually answer it and say I don't.

So, as is so often the case, the answer to your question is, "it depends." Considering that the job of coach is often especially ethereal - it's much harder to enforce a ban on coaching than it is to enforce a ban on someone serving in a government office - how do you really ban someone from coaching. Banning someone from contact with minors? That's much easier, though again, are we to say that means someone cannot have children? But, more directly, what does it mean to be a coach? That's much less clear cut, and that's PART OF why I don't support a ban on coaching. I don't want to have to apply the "I know it when I see it" definition of law to coaching.

I don't see that somehow justice is better served by Sutton being a "laborer," as realAlbertan suggested. I appreciate that other folks do.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

That Obama fine analogy is BS, for a variety of reasons. Addressing the aspect of it being the largest ever, well his campaign also raised the most money ever, and other campaigns have received similar fines when you consider the actual size of the respective campaigns and the amounts raised. I figured we could dismiss that right away and then either move it to the LR for further discussion or just drop it altogether, I am fine with either.

With regards to this line you keep repeating about it being hard to ban someone from coaching, so just because it's hard means we shouldn't do it? To swing back to a political analogy, that's like saying "Ah, there is no easy answer to stop this gun violence, so let's just do nothing".

I could be wrong, but isn't Sutton banned from coaching in Australia? I am almost certain there is a ban on him coaching somewhere, so some federation has figured it out. Going back to my original analogy, let's say an LA cop is dismissed from the force for police brutality, would you then be OK with him joining the NYPD? Even though he violated the most basic trust of his position of authority?

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Portside Athletics Blog

Hey Jordan, first of all, I am glad that we can all actually have a grown up discussion on this thread (unlike some other threads about number 7 that go where number 7 threads go) and as you said, agree on some points and respectfully disagree on others.

My thought is that as a coach, you are entrusted with the large responsibility, be it of minors or of adults. Many of us are saying that Sutton relinquishes his privilege of being a coach (across the board), when he violated the trust that his athletes (and their parents) place in him. At least the authorities in question in Australia have also agreed with many of us and have barred him from coaching there (from what I understand). Sutton has chosen to circumvent that and establish shop in the likes of Switzerland, the Philippines and Korea (may have in other place too).

As I said, I have the same difficulty accepting him practicing coaching as I would of a doctor/psychologist/teacher who did the same things he did and return to their professions...even if they only practiced medicine, psychology or teaching of grown adults, I'd still have difficulty if someone was banned from practicing those professions in Australia and circumvented it by setting up shop in Switzerland, Philippines or Korea.

I don't have a daughter and like you only have a son. But I coach teenagers of both sexes. I know the responsibility I have to their parents. Those parents are relying on me to make their kids better humans in addition to better athletes. That is what they should expect of every coach. When you violate that trust, as Australia has done, you should lose the privilege to coach. It is one of the first things covered in Canada's NCCP Introduction to Community Coaching Module.

My comments are exclusively related to Sutton coaching. I hold no ill will towards any Team TBB athlete, because I am a commentator from far, judging the scenario based only on what I have read. I respect many team TBB athletes and them working with Sutton does not change my views on Sutton coaching but at the same time, it does not change the respect I have of these athletes in many other domains of their life. They were privy to many more details than us in the public fan base when they chose to align themselves with Team TBB. Like you said, shades of grey, not all white, not all black.

Anyway, in summary we agree on him not being able to coach minors. We disagree with him being able to coach adults. He could still stay involved in many ways in the sport without coaching nor having to be a laborer (as realAlbertan was saying).

I have daughters. I will not go into the details of what happened with one of them and a coach. What I can say is that I will never forget and will never forgive. Ever.

I've read both that he has been banned for life from coaching in Australia and also that he received a 3-year ban there - not sure.
He was reportedly escorted out of a race in Japan.
He would be unable to obtain a work permit in some countries (convicted child molesters are not warmly welcomed); indeed he was to teach young triathletes in the U.K. in 2005 but had to cancel.

Even were one against a ban, there is a chasm between that and promoting his coaching.

Excerpt from http://www.mako.org.au/brett_sutton1.html
CONTROVERSIAL Queensland triathlon coach Brett Sutton has been barred from conducting planned workshops with young triathletes in England because he is a convicted sex offender.
Sutton was due to run a weekend camp at Torquay in April with some of Britain's most promising young triathletes, but officials intervened to stop him attending.
The 12 participants had paid about $A500 each to attend.
Sutton pleaded guilty in 1999 in the Southport District Court on the Gold Coast to sexually abusing a 13-year-old five times, dating back 12 years, while he was her swimming coach in Brisbane.
He was sacked by Triathlon Australia and is now based in Switzerland.

I cannot understand Jordan's comment "How do you even enforce a ban?"

It just seems so contrary to what I would have expected his opinion to be. So it's gone from a full defense of Sutton being able to coach to "Well, even if you're right, I don't know that it's possible."

We can at least try, right? A simple step would be that any athlete associated with him would also be banned, that would be a pretty simple way to enforce a ban. I've disagreed with Jordan throughout this whole thread, but on this specific aspect, it's not just disagreement on a value position, he simply me thinking "WTF?".

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Portside Athletics Blog

I have the same WTF reactions like you.

If Jerry Sandusky were to write a football/linebacker coaching book with great advice, how would we feel about other coaches and NFL players tweeting out those advice and give credit to Sandusky for such advice? Every time that you attribute something positive from Sutton, you one way or another are supporting him. You are validating him. Such validations should not be placed on someone who has molested a kid, let alone more than once. There are many of other great coaches out there that you can quote from.

Evidently he doesn't think much about staying away from coaching kids because he tried to coach kids again at a clinic in England 6 years AFTER, I repeat ... AFTER pleading guilty to molesting a kid. How would we feel about an 8th-9th grade teacher attempting to teach 8th-9th grade kids again 6 AFTERS pleading guilty to molesting one of his students.

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My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."

What most in this thread seem to be implying is that Sutton should be banned from having OPINIONS.

Can we not separate the information in the article from our emotional responses to the person who wrote it?

I could have picked a better politics analogy, certainly. That was just the first that came to mind. We can dismiss it or move it. Whatever...

I think either you misunderstand my point on the ban or I did a poor job wording it or both.

Pursuant to your cop question. If the guy is banned from LAPD for excessive force, am I okay with him joining the NYPD as a clerk? I dunno. I'm not saying that's a direct analogy, since Sutton is in a very similar role, except for not coaching minors.

So there's the question I think of:
- should he banned from coaching minors?
- should he banned from coaching entirely?
- how do we define what it means to be a coach?

I certainly don't mean that we should do nothing. Let's take Milken, as an example. He's banned by the SEC from "any involvement in the securities industry." Now, does that mean he can't offer advice to someone on what stocks to buy? To sell?

That's part of my problem with bans, in general, of any kind. Where do you draw the line? I actually think this is a more interesting discussion in a lot of ways than even whether or not someone should be banned. What does a ban really mean? What if an athlete asks Sutton for advice over email? Is that coaching?

I don't see why my stance is so "WTF." I'm saying, "okay, let's talk about what you believe should be done. How does that work?"

I don't see why it's so absurd in your opinion that I think Brett should be allowed to coach both because I think he is not coaching minors, and because he admitted wrongdoing and is working - in my opinion anyway - to redeem himself, and because trying to actually enact a ban on something like coaching is too nebulous to be meaningful. My opinion is the result of all of those things. Why should it be the result of just one?

To swing back to that same political analogy, I'd say, "there's no easy to stop this gun violence, so that's not do something that is knee-jerk and seems 'right' - like the 90s assault weapon ban, which statistically had basically zero actual effect on gun violence."

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I responded to the point made, that's all. Further, Im not close to the only one making that comparison, you had a long conversation with Jordan about it, and he did it too. You're being a dick. My stuff on Sutton was the primary point of my post.

USADA has banned 3 coaches (likely 4 in the near future).
What are the rules regarding such bans?
I would guess pro athletes risk sanctions for seeking professional advice from banned individuals, possibly only if some form of payment is made.
But perhaps the ban has few teeth.

That's part of my problem with bans, in general, of any kind. Where do you draw the line? I actually think this is a more interesting discussion in a lot of ways than even whether or not someone should be banned. What does a ban really mean? What if an athlete asks Sutton for advice over email? Is that coaching?


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I think what is almost as important is how the community responds, regardless of actual sanctions and this can be applied to just about any controversial issue. Based on the feedback on here, there are some that are willing to overlook his past transgressions, and there are others that cant overlook that.

In terms of drawing the line, there is never really ever a hard line in anything. Someone can usually find a way around just about any decision (IE, your example about getting "coaching" from emails).

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

In many countries coaches, particularly of children, have to be certified, so banning in those countries means you can't get hired, or volunteer as a coach. In mst other places a federation can ban a coach, but that just means he can't work for the federation or member in an official capacity.

I wouldn't be against coaches being licensed in some way, but thats pretty much a state by state or country by country type of thing.

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Styrrell

For an already established coach, those regulations dont really matter though. It's as you say, being "banned" only means you cant basically be an representative of said country or get any of their benefits. Hell, look at how many top athletes have flocked to Sutton after all of this. We have pro's on this thread already saying they've pretty much ok'd/accepted/forgiven what has happened to Sutton's past, because they could gain athletic achievement under him. ETA: And I'm not saying that's wrong, it's pretty much a personal decision that each has to face.

I dont think any country makes coaches be certified, whether working with kids or not. I know of several coaches in my area (Raleigh) that work with and hold kid triathlon camps/races that arent certified with anyone (nor will they ever be).

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

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In Australia you need a "Blue Card" which is a government issued card allowing a person to work with children across the board.They do all the background checks and if you don't pass those then no Blue Card and no working with kids..

www.ccypcg.qld.gov.au/bluecard/index.html

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Along a similar line...

How do we feel about Roman Polanski? And actors who have worked with him? And directors who give him public credit?

Cuts out a lot of movies to watch while riding indoors...

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How do we feel about the Catholic Church and everyone who still attends knowing of the child molestation that is prevalent among the priests?

How do we feel about soldiers who rape and kill women and children and those who still support them?

We could have quite a list that will include all of us in one way or another..

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Man, I start a thread on an interesting topic and what I think was a very brave venture for an elite AG'er and look how this thread turns! Back to my original post and point....lol

Mention Sutton and the baggage comes with it. Don't want the baggage, don't bring him up.

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___________________________________________
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2020 National Masters Champion - M40-44 - 400m IM
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M & 40-44M - 200 m Butterfly (LCM)

 
"To Ironpsych, it might be unfair to just pick on Brandon here as he is one of many athletes and is kind enough to actually come here to ST and post on many topics. Many pro athletes much more prominent than him have entrusted their development as adult professionals to Sutton. We can name Caroline Steffen and Chrissie Wellington among that top tier. Going back a decade Siri Lindley and Loretta Harrop (if I recall correctly). Do all criminals in society deserve a second chance to reform themselves? I think the answer is yes. "

I actually don't have a problem with people who are coached by Sutton. People are adults and can choose whom they want to associate with. I was responding to Marsh's post which seemed very "wishy washy" about Sutton's past behavior.

"I don't know how I feel about him", etc. While at the same time extolling his virtues as a coach and seeming to tacitly defend/minimize his past activity. Although he did consider it a crime. This is what I was responding to.

I am all about bringing some balance to threads that have historically been black and white. Although have a more emotional connection to this thread which may have influenced my reply to Brandon.

But compare his post to Jordan's post in which he clearly stated his distaste for Sutton's past behavior. Although, then thinks he's the most wonderful coach in triathlon (my wording). Unclear, where that sentiment comes from. I am now wondering how I am going to feel when I see HIS results. I hope (pray?) that he will be able to come up with a good defense.

Again, I do not have a problem with TBB members per se, but if you sign up for that then you have to know that you will catch flack. And Brandon's noodle handshake of a post was very disappointing. And when you make your living from sponsors and coaching dollars you either need to be very clear where you stand on controversial issues or not say anything. Strictly from a PR point of view. I think he did more harm to his reputation than good. That was the gist of my (attempt to be funny) post. I have a pro as a coach and if he came on line supporting things I thought where B.S. Then... no more dineros from me.

And from a general PR standpoint (Jordan did a much better job than Brandon) you do not want to be associated with defending a child molester. Bad for your sponsor, bad for coaching people. Jordan may have fallen into this as well but... he's a much more successful athlete than Brandon and people may give him more wiggle room. No offense Brandon.

Which brings me to my next point. The only reason that Sutton is still coaching is because he is very good. A small town swimming coach who bangs a 14 y.o... Prison. No coaching ever again. Pariah in the regional and state world.

Successful people get more of a pass than "regular" people. Which allowed Sandusky to continue to operate for so many more years (absolutely not comparing. Apples and Oranges)

To expand this conversation to a much broader platform. I think that the posters on this thread who seem to "gloss over" Sutton's "indiscretion" with the "consensual" attitude are just continuing an undercurrent of misogyny that (although has improved) is still rampant in our society (and Australia).

Imagine if Sutton was gay. Nothing wrong with that. And then imagine if he had molested a 14 y.o. gay male. Imagine if he had been prosecuted for molesting a 14 y.o. male during "consensual" sex. Do you think he would be coaching at all? Likely not. Or imagine if a 27 y.o. female coach had "consensual" sex with a 14 y.o. boy. Do you think that she would be coaching? Don't think so.

But it happened to a 14 y.o. "Lolita" who seduced a 27 y.o. male coach. Of course she got what she wanted. The "Red Dress" defense.

"Oh, that..." Let's move on. He's a great guy. Done a lot for the sport. Why dwell on the past?"

Vs. "I can't believe he raped that little boy. He was only what? 14. What a horrible person. I hope he never coaches again. "

25% of American women have been molested as children. Not necessarily penetrated and raped but have had an adult male touch them inappropriately or "more". When we overlook or trivialize their experience we contribute to the the perpetual cycle of abuse.

Sutton did what lots of Uncles and Fathers and Grandfathers have done. Yet we somehow we think that because he is "contributing" and is full of "wisdom" about triathlon that this should be overlooked.

"My grandfather only molested my once. He's a great guy!"

Would we overlook the lawyer who screwed his 14 y.o. daughter (only once) because he is a damn good lawyer? I don't think so. Maybe?

I have a very personal connection to this topic. Not only do I deal with this sort of stuff on a routine basis as a professional but I was also faced with a similar situation.

When I was 23 and working at a company, one of the bosses daughters interned over the summer to earn a little extra $$. Somehow she got hooked up with someone in our circle and started hanging out with us. It was kinda cute, we would by her drinks and have fun, etc. As the summer went on, her and I started flirting (innocently) and spent some time alone. One night we all went out and got loaded and somehow she wound up back at my place. She was very cute (and from my point of view open to "persuasion") and I definitely had some thoughts about what might transpire. We both slept in my bed and... nothing happened.

Why? Because even as a drunk 23 y.o. I knew that a 16 y.o. female was an "inappropriate" sexual partner!!!!!!!!

Now does that make me a better man than Sutton? I don't know. But what I do know is that it didn't happen.

My wife, when discussing this topic, simply said... "What 27 y.o. doesn't have other opportunities? He must be a weirdo if he couldn't hook up with someone his own age." She's not an athlete (just a very understanding triathlete spouse). But I thought that made a lot of sense.

Jordan, you have used the word "forgive" in your posts about Sutton. But you can never "forgive" but people do "overlook", which is what athletes that work with Sutton do. They overlook his past to further their careers. That's business and that's the world. And I'm O.K. with that.

But just like the Grandpa who sullied his 14 y.o. Granddaughter, Sutton should never be "forgiven". If people want to work with him then they need to take the knocks and not get all butt hurt when people come after them.

And from a PR stand point. Do not ever defend a child molester!!!! How many potential clients have you guys lost? (Personally, NOW, I would never sign up with you or Brandon). You have made your case and have hopefully weighed the outcomes of your support for Sutton. That's fine. You are professionals who make decisions based on your convictions. I respect that.

But I wonder how many people are going to respond to this emotionally laden topic with phone calls to your sponsors?

LA postings are very different. But child molester threads. Stay away!!!!

And I can't but wonder what its like for his female athletes to look up at him from the pool and not think "If I was 14 would he want to be with me"?

 
"On balance I think he has done more good than harm on earth."

I find this hard to believe. Wow!

An adult man sexually molests a 14 y.o. girl.

And then coaches a bunch of triathletes to championships. So "He is alright in my book." Thumbs up!

Um, I hate to say this but TravisT may be right. You are one fucked up individual.

Do you have Asperger's by any chance? That would explain a lot of things.

Dude. I'm at a loss for words. Although, I really want to call you a bitch. But I'm not completely sure why.

Damn.

x2

Coaches needs to be put on some kind of list blocking them for working with kids ever again. No second chances to do wrong again.

I don't know why there is even room for discussion here. The scumbag raped a child repeatedly over years. End of story.

~~ kate

Just to add to the already disturbing things this guy writes, he is a triathlon "coach" and has a daughter.

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I could have picked a better politics analogy, certainly. That was just the first that came to mind. We can dismiss it or move it. Whatever...


I have no idea why you felt it was even remotely appropriate or comparable to make an analogy between campaign finance violations and sexual assault of a minor.

Pursuant to your cop question. If the guy is banned from LAPD for excessive force, am I okay with him joining the NYPD as a clerk? I dunno. I'm not saying that's a direct analogy, since Sutton is in a very similar role, except for not coaching minors.

Again, why are you choosing to make analogies that are not analogous? You even said, "I'm not saying that's a direct analogy", so then why are you making it? Sutton violated the trust of his position and is now maintaining that same position just before a different group. Let's make this analogy as simple as possible, let's say our LAPD cop sexually assaulted a minor during the course of an investigation, should be allowed to transfer to the NYPD as long as he doesn't work on any cases involving children?

- should he banned from coaching minors?

I think everyone agrees the answer here is yes.

- should he banned from coaching entirely?

I think yes, you seem to think no. He violated the trust of his position, he doesn't get to keep that position just because it's before a different audience.

- how do we define what it means to be a coach?


Here's where you have me saying, "WTF?" This seems pretty simple and it's seems like you are only making it difficult in order to make it seem like it would be hard to ban Sutton. If the sport doesn't force coaches to register and have a concrete definition of what they do, I think it would be pretty simple for a representative group of athletes, coaches and others to define this. You are very clear on who your coach is and who is not your coach, so you want to apply shades of gray to Sutton but seem not to have them with regards to your own coaching relationship.

I certainly don't mean that we should do nothing. Let's take Milken, as an example. He's banned by the SEC from "any involvement in the securities industry." Now, does that mean he can't offer advice to someone on what stocks to buy? To sell?


Sure, I'll concede we can't monitor advice Milken or Sutton give through conversations with friends or acquaintances, but we can ban them from acting in a professional capacity. The SEC has managed to do it with Milken, and I believe at least one national federation has done it with Sutton, I don't know why you are pretending it would be so hard for others to do the same.

That's part of my problem with bans, in general, of any kind. Where do you draw the line? I actually think this is a more interesting discussion in a lot of ways than even whether or not someone should be banned. What does a ban really mean? What if an athlete asks Sutton for advice over email? Is that coaching?


I don't know how I can make this clearer to you, I wish I saw it as being more complex so I could attempt to describe it differently. The fact that it seems so simple to me leaves me lacking another way to describe it to you. How does Lance's ban work? "What does a ban really man?" It means he's not allowed to race professionally, Lance can ride his bike and race his buddies to the stop sign, but he can't race professionally. I think banning Sutton from coaching could be similarly straightforward.

I don't see why my stance is so "WTF." I'm saying, "okay, let's talk about what you believe should be done. How does that work?"

Athletes found working with him in a professional capacity are sanctioned. Pretty simple and I think it would be very effective, do you disagree? You have me saying "WTF?" because you're acting like this would be hard and I think it is stunningly simple.

I don't see why it's so absurd in your opinion that I think Brett should be allowed to coach both because I think he is not coaching minors, and because he admitted wrongdoing and is working - in my opinion anyway - to redeem himself, and because trying to actually enact a ban on something like coaching is too nebulous to be meaningful. My opinion is the result of all of those things. Why should it be the result of just one?


Well, I guess we just have to agree to have a fundamental disagreement here which certainly changes my opinion of how I'll view what I read or hear coming from you in the future. I understand what you said earlier in the thread about second chances, shades of gray, and your perspective having changed since your accident. I'll take the other view, there are enough smart, interesting, and valuable things to learn from more people than I have time to read or listen to. Basically, there is more valuable content than I have time to consume, I don't need to add to that with content from someone with a history such as Sutton.

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Portside Athletics Blog

I'm with you, it doesn't seem complicated were there a will. There is precedence in USA sports for coaches to receive lifetime bans based on the same type offense. How many athletes would want to take the PR hit of using a coach banned for child molestation, particularly if they risk sanctions themselves?

USA Swimming has banned 46 (as of 2010) coaches for life, most for sexual misconduct: http://sports.espn.go.com/...ews/story?id=5220940

USA Track and Field has banned coaches for sexual offenses against minors.

USA Triathlon has rules in place that might also be used, although I think it would be far better if they created new language to specifically address the issue:

3.8 Acts Warranting Suspension.
j. Any act which disgraces or brings discredit to the sport of triathlon.

3.12 Acts of Agents.
The conduct of any agent acting with apparent authority on behalf of a participant shall constitute grounds for penalizing such participant if such agent's conduct violates any of these Rules.

you wrote

"it was a failure of morality"

ok

a temporary one that deserves forgiveness, or a seminal character flaw that deserves eternal damnation?

just one or the other - there IS no grey area

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http://www.fitspeek.com the Fraser Valley's fitness, wellness, and endurance sports podcast

Sutton's right - let the kids play. They'll play with joy and imagination which is it's own worthwhile result. Feeling the beauty of the game is something that won't happen in over structured practice sessions at early ages

It's my view that we have sucked the life, the elation and joy out of kids sports. I've been a passive side-line observer myself the last few years, as my son has worked his way through and I have coupled that with my own experience a generation ago.

What is astonishing is that in Canada, we have this absolute frenzy of organized kids sports that starts up for middle and upper middle class kids( that right there is saying something), at around ages 6 - 7. They progress though house-league and rep/club programs in various sports. What is startling is the attrition rates along the way, to the point that when you reach the late teen years the two end products are:

1. If you talk to high performance national team level coaches in many sports they tell you that one of the problems is very small talent pools to pick from

2. Statistical evidence that by-and-large most teenagers by this age, have almost zero physical activity in their days/weeks.

So what was that frenzy of activity at an earlier age for? We got really nothing out of it!

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

I think you and many are missing the point here even although many are pointing it out then in some sense arguing against themselves. What Sutton was guilty of was betraying a position of trust over a minor and he should never be allowed to do that again and as such should never be allowed to work with minors, eg school teacher, scout leader, peadatric nurse etc. The actual job function he did at the time in some ways is academic, it was merely a route that gave him access to the underage girl. For me I have no issue with him coaching adults who are aware of his past, that is their choice to work with him and they are certainly not vulnerable.

On the issue of the seriousness of the crime and redemption (and yes I do believe it was of the utmost serious nature) I will use another analogy. Would you view a 20 year old who stole a Hershy bar (and please I'm not comparing rape with stealing a hershy bar just making a point of range of crime) with a sophisticate bank robber and think they should get the same punishment? The law in civilised societies doesn't think so and quite rightly to. What happened to the poor girl in India recently with rape and murder is degrees more heinous than what Sutton did and the law will see it that way as well and hopefully the perpetrators will get due punishment. Again I'm in no way defending Sutton but he was punished as the law in a civilised democratic society saw fit and the focus of any decent society should be rehabilitation of offenders so they never re-offend and, at least in Sutton's case, that seems to have been successful. He committed a horrible crime, was punished and will carry the stigma for the rest of his life but he is trying to get on with his life as best he can without being in a position to do the same again.

In reply to Jordan, as so often on this board people get slaughtered for certain statements. It appears over the last few years that sadly America has become incredibly polarised (abortion, gun control, political affiliation etc) and there is no room for shades of grey or compromise. Unfortunately your views have been victim of this polarisation as with so many conversations on this forum which in many instances just makes it an unpleasant place to visit. Whether I agree or disagree with your views (and I'm a bit of both) I will at least consider them and respect your views and I understand you have it in you to give someone a second chance. Everyone can make a mistake in life, heaven help us if the world tunred it's back on us completely and people refused to forgive. Note to the flamers, I'm saying forgive NOT forget, two very different things.

Inherent to the concept of consent is understanding the impact and implications of the act to which you are consenting.
Legal or not (always a handy excuse), NO 14 yo girl can reasonably consent to such an act with a person whom she (assuming) admires, respects , wishes to please and , to some degree, fears.
As a female, I truly believe that there is never, ever any excuse, reasoning or justification for such an act as was perpetrated upon this child.

And to the poster who attempted to minimize the impact by saying that the victim (not a word I often use) is now married and successful : Shame on you.

Except that he still coaches minors. It's right on the TBB website. Here's a picture of him with the Philippines team.


The girl behind him is 16. Two of the boys are 17. The President of the team describes it here: "We are very pleased to have top foreign athletes like Caroline Steefen, Ali Fitch, Matt O'Halloran and David Dellow in Alaska teamTBB. But we also want to augment this team with promising young Filipino athletes who will hopefully be able to represent the country at international competitions in the near future. Obviously having a top caliber coach in Brett Sutton helps make this goal a real possibility."

In fact, kids' projects seems to be a major focus of Team TBB, as shown on their "Our Activities" page.

In Brazil, "Together with Cali Amaral, president of the Association of Southeast Triathlon (ASTRI) in Brazil, and world renowned triathlon coach Brett Sutton, teamTBB is working to make a real difference in the lives of underprivileged youths in this country through the sport of triathlon." This page describes how one of their members "who not too many years ago was just another kid helped by a social project, then discovered by a triathlon coach at the tender age of 15."

Here's where Brett talks about his involvement, and going to "this little school type building and to 30 or so smiling little kids running around having a great time."

In short, he both coaches minors and has worked his way into a position of power and authority over them.

To those who say it's fine for pro triathletes to be coached by him, because they're adults and "know what they're getting into and can look after themselves"...it appears that some of the money these pros pay goes toward giving him access to minors in an "official" capacity. Are you okay with that?

Well there we go.

Jordan, others, care to comment?

Sutton got exactly what he wanted from Jordan, a well respected figure in the sport with an especially large voice due to his role here with Slowtwitch coming out in support of him. Unfortunately, it has just left me to support Jordan less, not Sutton any more..

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Portside Athletics Blog

Wow. How anybody can defend the guy after seeing that is beyond me. He keeps right on coaching and interacting with minors like he never did anything. The door is open for Jordan and the others who try the justify this guy's involvement in the sport to step back but I doubt they will do it.

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i been out of the TBB Team after 2009. here's what i know

of the picture posted of team TBB alaska, brett dosnt coach the Filipino. They are part of a developpement team with the a philippine coach but like the brazil team and others, it s other local coach that are responsable for those team.

for the 4 months i was in the philipines, the local athlete werent allowed at our session, only the adulte pro team is supervised by Brett. I do not know if it as chance since but i douth it as. the pro team take all the time of brett so developpement coach do the work with others. so in resume, we had about no contact with those developpement team other than a few pictures photo shoot for promotion.

i have work with brett sutton for 1 year, learn a lot from him, he always as been a gentlemen with everyone around me and on the team. he was hard as a coach but i never had any red flag on his behavior during my time with the team.

i have dicuss the pass with him at a few occassion, he never ran away from talking about it. what i saw is someone that was trying to do good from a very bad pass. That is all i can judge, i can only take into account what i see and what i know.

my time with brett was very positive and i have learn a lot even if it didnt happen to be the most positive impact on my racing performance at the time.

.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

As I said earlier in the thread, your blog was one I used to follow which I stopped following after you went to work with Team TBB.

I feel the same way about Brandon Marsh after reading his comments here, he essentially said that he went to train under Brett and Team TBB because it was "easy" for him, it checked all the boxes of coaching, sponsorship, etc. So he was willing to work with someone convicted of sexual assault against a minor because it happened to be convenient for him. That's not something I can respect.

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Portside Athletics Blog

So the multiple quotes in the above post about him still working with minor's are lies?

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I dont know, if you read my replie, i said that i m sharing what i saw and what i witness from the 2009 edition team. We had all those teams....some of the same athlete and philipino. and none of them were part of our training group.

Brett was working with a team of professional athlete and trying to get them to make a living out of this sport. While Team TBB and developpement program was big, very few were actually working with brett. I douth it as chance since but i might be wrong.

I have done so much research about brett and interview him, the manage and about 15+ of his ex athletes befoe joining in 2009. it was a major concern of mine. in the end, i had very positive comments from everyoone about him so i decided that i would go there as a adult and see for myself. That s all i can judge on.

I do beleive someone should be given a chance in life. A chance to go own with his life, pay the price of his crime and try to do good. I dont think he deserve a second chance to work with kids as a coach. but what i saw at tbb was a coach working with adult only. so i was in peice with that and the way he behavied with everyone around the team.

not here to defend him... i m here to share my experience.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

yeah, i understand your reaction. IT wasnt a easy call for me at the time. And it was a decision that i have taken very seriously and reseached a long time. At the end, i was in peice with it as i had done my homework and saw what i saw.

I dont know if things as changed now? if brett was working with kids now, i would not join the team. but whne i was part of it.... it was adult only and my impression is that it is still the case. Brett is the leader of team tbb but he dosnt coach everyone under the team unberealla.....

.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

So what Sutton did was criminal. That seems fairly black and white. What is also black and white to me is that a genuinely remorseful person should be able to rehabilitate himself over time and given a second chance. That idea seems to be under attack in this thread and it disturbs me to no end. Shit, the average alchoholic can do hard-core damage to lot's of people, and when he sobers up he's cool, get's to drive, continue his career, as long as he stays off the bottle.

It does makes sense that Sutton should never get to coach a minor again (i.e give up the bottle), however pure is heart and actions might be now. But if I were a pro that's one person I'd try to get for a coach, and I'd be proud of the association. He pulled himself out of a low, low place.

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Joe

You can reason/justify it in any way but for him to be even in contact with minors within the sport, to me is wrong. So you can say he doesn't "coach" them 3 posts after a picture of him with juniors, is odd.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

The fact that he is still associating with minors let alone coaching them completely invalidates everything you just wrote.

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So what will you do about it? will you just cry about it and type on your keyboard or fly out there and tell him you think he should not be around minor?????

because i took the second option....... when there and told him face to face, and i m happy of what i saw in 2009. he was doing the right thing.


.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
Instargram

I will just say that it's an unfortunate situation, when we have stuff like this. And then for you to seemingly excuse/justify it just as unfortunate. We should all hope, an situation like that doesn't ever occur. In his situation, I'm surprised he is an an setting that puts him in contact with minors (ie, an photo like that was just posted.

Eta: I don't have the financial means to do anything more than discuss this on here. But when talk about the degree of his coaching minors ( or lack of "coaching" minors) and then pops up a picture of him with a minor in a coaching related picture, well seems odd. That is the part that should be questioned and hopefully not allowed.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I'll continue to do what I have done up until now, that is, make a point to not follow athletes associated with him, such as yourself, and make every effort to purchase products made by companies that sponsor those athletes.

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Portside Athletics Blog

Your discovery should not be buried in this thread, but rather a new thread should be started.
Everyone will be alerted, and maybe facts will emerge.
A convicted child molester is again coaching minors?!

I don't have any issue with you taking the moral high ground, but when you start to take the intellectual high ground and act like I'm an idiot, then I have problems. You are correct that one federation - Australia - has banned him from coaching; the fact that you only THINK that is the case, instead of being certain, makes me wonder why you are so adamant in your stance. You could at least be bothered to read up on the facts. But the fact that he is banned from coaching by Australia hasn't stopped him from coaching Australian athletes to success at all levels of the sport since the ban. So...

The real analogy is whether or not a LAPD officer who is fired for excessive force can be banned from working for Blackwater as a private security guard in Singapore.

The real analogy is whether or not a school shooting in the US can affect gun control laws in Switzerland.

Now, I don't think that's a particularly interesting discussion to have, because the answers are obvious.

Yes, I am very clear about who and who is not my coach, but I'm actually - in that regard - much more the exception than the rule among pro triathletes. Macca - he "consults" with Darren Smith, but Darren isn't his coach. Crowie - he "consults" with Mat Steinmetz, but Mat isn't his coach. The list of athletes who have "advisors" and "consultants" - but who would say they are self-coached - is VERY long. My "shades of grey" aren't hypotheticals. They are a reflection of the very real state of triathlon.

And as to your "it should be simple to get a group to define..." you clearly don't work in a bureaucracy. Our sport can't even come up with a reasonably cohesive or consistent definition of what a pro athlete is, and you think it'd be simple to get a committee to define what a coach is? You're delusional.

Furthermore, even if that was a realistic possibility, banning a coach is not at all like banning an athlete, per your Lance example. Lance can't grab a timing chip and go from start to finish. Cut-and-dry. But you keep evading the basic question I have of how do you define coaching. How would you define "working in a professional capacity?" You still haven't done that. You've just passed it off as something that someone else should be able to define. If it's so easy, why can't you define it?

And as for your means of enforcement, I definitely have a problem there. You punish the athletes as a result of working with him? Really? Especially when you've refused to define in practical terms what, specifically, they'd be punished for. Email? On-site coaching? Phone? What?

As to your last comment, about agreeing to disagree, I can respect that there is certainly more good stuff in the world than we can consume, so if you want to weed some out because you don't agree with Sutton's past, that's your prerogative, and I respect that. I'm sorry that our disagreement changes your feelings about what I have to say, but I can respect that as well.

Lastly, because it was certainly news to me, I will say that I don't condone Brett's working with juniors. I hope Alex Bok - owner of TBB - might chime in to let us know the details. As Jonnyo said, do we know that he's actually working directly with them? He's the head coach of Team TBB, but that doesn't mean that he's actually directly involved in the day-to-day. Is he's simply writing a training plan that other coaches execute? Is he under constant supervision when he's with minors? None of those things would make me okay with the decision, but they at least might make me understand how someone else was. But the short answer is definitely that I do not think Brett should be working with minors/juniors. I think he lost that right.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I have always thought it odd that Switzerland, a country with very strict immigration and residency laws, would allow someone with his record to live and work in the country. I doubt the US or Canada would give him a work isa. Anybody know anything about that?

I don't have any issue with you taking the moral high ground, but when you start to take the intellectual high ground and act like I'm an idiot, then I have problems.


I never said, nor did I mean to imply, that you were an idiot. So I will apologize for whatever gave you that impression, I have enough respect for you to not need to insult you just because we disagree.

You are correct that one federation - Australia - has banned him from coaching; the fact that you only THINK that is the case, instead of being certain, makes me wonder why you are so adamant in your stance. You could at least be bothered to read up on the facts.

I said I "thought" that because I wasn't sure. I prefer not to state things assuredly that I am not sure of. As to why I didn't look it up, it's because that aspect of this conversation isn't important to me. I can be adamant in my stance whether or not he was actually banned by a national federation, I don't need an official sanction to make up MY mind. I was just using as a counter-point to your argument that it would be tough to do, because I was relatively sure it had been done.

The real analogy is whether or not a school shooting in the US can affect gun control laws in Switzerland.

No, again that is not an appropriate analogy. There is no world governing body that controls guns laws that could take that step. However, there is the International Triathlon Union, and the World Triathlon Corporation, two international bodies that could take a single step to ban him from coaching athletes that compete in those federations.

And as to your "it should be simple to get a group to define..." you clearly don't work in a bureaucracy.

Now who is taking the intellectual high ground and treating the other like they are an idiot? I work for the federal government, so if you think I am unaware of the workings of a bureaucracy you're wrong.

Our sport can't even come up with a reasonably cohesive or consistent definition of what a pro athlete is, and you think it'd be simple to get a committee to define what a coach is? You're delusional.

That says more about the professionalism, or lack thereof, in triathlon, than it does about me or my delusions.

And as for your means of enforcement, I definitely have a problem there. You punish the athletes as a result of working with him? Really?

Yes, really. You want to eliminate drugs? Eliminate the demand. If there is a demand, there will always be a supply. Same is true here, you want to eliminate the supply of those convicted of sexually molesting a minor as triathlon coaches? Then make demanding the services of that person something no athlete will consider.


I'll say what I said elsewhere in this thread. I think Sutton is getting exactly what he wants from you, a well respected person in the sport who has an especially loud voice because of his association with the largest triathlon site on the internet coming to his defense. I am just not sure if you're getting what you want.

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Portside Athletics Blog

I just reread my previous post and if it was this line "I don't know how I can make this clearer to you, I wish I saw it as being more complex so I could attempt to describe it differently. The fact that it seems so simple to me leaves me lacking another way to describe it to you." that left you feeling insulted, I apologize.

I could see how it could it could come across that way. I just meant to express frustration that we couldn't make each other understand the other's point of view. I was implying that this probably seemed straightforward and simple to you, and that it seemed that same to me, but that we couldn't make the other understand. Basically that we were communicating on different wave lengths, not that you were some sort of simpleton.

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Portside Athletics Blog

Technically, a ban by the ITU should be honored by WTC, so you shouldn't need both. But the ITU already enacted such a ban - for three years. So in that sense, the governing body handed down that sentence, and he served his time. However, it's not clear that he was actually prevented from coaching in any meaningful way. He was persona non grata at races - and was actually escorted out of some races - during that period, but the ITU chose not to use their means of enforcement as a punishment of the athletes. Now, you can choose to disagree with that (and it seems clear that you do), but the ITU both chose to sanction him for a set time period - not for life - and also to direct the punishment at him, not at the athletes.

I also would say that there is indeed a world governing body that could enact such legislation - the UN. Now, I happen to think that the UN is pretty much a joke, and that they could never actually enact anything with any real teeth, so perhaps it's meaningless. Alternatively, you could suggest that NATO countries abide by a set of gun import/export laws, since the trafficking and ownership of arms has consequences if NATO decides to intervene in a country. Unfortunately, it seems most often we seem to be sending arms into countries as opposed to keeping them out... But I disagree that it couldn't be done. If Americans were as interested in gun control as the Australians were after the tragic school shooting there in '96, I am certain that the US government would find a way to influence the manufacture and import/export of weapons globally.

You are correct that my statement says more about the state of professionalism in triathlon than it does about you. However, I would say that doesn't mean you aren't delusional. I just means that triathlon is ridiculously unprofessional whereas I'd say you are only somewhat delusional.

As far as your employer, according to LinkedIn, you work for the bureau of labor statistics as an economist. I get where more of your arguments are coming from - punish the demand and the supply disappears, for instance - but I am truly shocked that, as an economist in today's society, you genuinely believe that a bureaucracy can be ever as functional as you want the ITU to be in this case.

On to a more interesting question, how would you propose eliminate the demand for drugs? I certainly agree that it's been futile to focus on the supply side, but I'm curious what you answer to working on the demand side might be...

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

Thanks. That was indeed what I was interpreting as you implying that I was a simpleton. Appreciate the clarification.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I have read some of Sutton's interviews and find him intriguing enough to follow on twitter. However, in light of his past, when I read the below tweet from him which was posted 2 hrs ago, it makes me feel extremely uncomfortable.

"when away from my girls, down and sinking deeper,always good2 c see keen wide eyed innocence, the first session4 cuzumel elite youth program"

Jordan, I agree that a federation banning all sorts of "grey area" coaching (consulting, email, etc.) is difficult. But Brett Sutton's coaching is as clear cut as it gets. He advertises it on a web page. He publicly brags about his coaching skills. And Slowtwitch writes fawning articles about his team every few years (2008 & 2011).

It would really be quite simple to stop him from coaching. A few dozen individuals--tier 1 and tier 2 pro triathletes--could all publicly state that they won't work with him because he has violated a basic tenet of the sport, and that they refuse to enable his continued access to minors. Peer pressure would do the rest. If it drives him to "underground" coaching by email...so what? He doesn't have access to kids this way.

Look, the Penn State scandal opened a lot of eyes. People in charge "thought" Sandusky was properly supervised around kids--but didn't really want to ask too many questions because they didn't want to rock the boat, and because he and Paterno were "too important to the sport."

I make no accusations about Sutton's current behavior. Regardless, there is no way in hell that he should be working around minors. And there is no way in hell that any self-respecting triathlete should be supporting and enabling that by hiring him as a coach.

Penn State opened a lot of eyes, and caused a lot of us to lose tolerance for the "look the other way" attitude that has pervaded sports for decades. And many of us are saying, "ENOUGH!"

This is a basic moral issue, and the management of Slowtwitch needs to decide what's more important--its backing of an influential triathlon coach, or taking a stand against old-school ways where convicted child molesters get to continue working around children while everyone pretends all is well.

Technically, a ban by the ITU should be honored by WTC, so you shouldn't need both.

I wasn't aware of the jurisdictional overlap there.

But the ITU already enacted such a ban - for three years. So in that sense, the governing body handed down that sentence, and he served his time. However, it's not clear that he was actually prevented from coaching in any meaningful way. He was persona non grata at races - and was actually escorted out of some races - during that period

So despite your comments earlier in the thread about your interactions with him, do those seem like the behaviors of someone who was actually contrite? Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying it sounds like he was violating the spirit, if not the letter, of his ban?


As far as your employer, according to LinkedIn, you work for the bureau of labor statistics as an economist. I get where more of your arguments are coming from - punish the demand and the supply disappears, for instance - but I am truly shocked that, as an economist in today's society, you genuinely believe that a bureaucracy can be ever as functional as you want the ITU to be in this case.

We can move the gun control debate to the LR but I will address this. Yes, I am an economist with the BLS, and despite what Jack Welch says, I think we do a pretty good job at the task we are assigned to do. I am aware of the limitations of bureaucracies, but this again is an instance where we are on different wavelengths. "As functional as I want the ITU to be"? You mean define the role of coach? Besides "athlete" I'd assume that coach is the second most numerous profession in the sport, I don't think asking the international governing body to define that position is that big of an ask.

On to a more interesting question, how would you propose eliminate the demand for drugs? I certainly agree that it's been futile to focus on the supply side, but I'm curious what you answer to working on the demand side might be...

Oh boy, approaching LR territory here, but briefly I'll say I guess it depends on what drugs we are talking about. Marijuana? I think the current trend of legalization is a positive development that I certainly support. The cost/benefit to society of legalizing marijuana is a net positive in my opinion as opposed to continuing with current expenditures on enforcement and prosecution as that seems to have been a poor use of societal resources.

As for other drugs, I think demand from drugs and it's role in the drug trade is sort of analogous the mental health in the gun violence debate. For drugs, it certainly starts with education as to the dangers, but beyond that, eliminating that climate that makes someone turn to drugs in the first place. There are many things including mental health, economic conditions and opportunities, socio-economic status, etc., that all contribute there. If it was easy it would have been figure out already...

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Portside Athletics Blog

Jordan, I agree that a federation banning all sorts of "grey area" coaching (consulting, email, etc.) is difficult. But Brett Sutton's coaching is as clear cut as it gets. He advertises it on a web page. He publicly brags about his coaching skills. And Slowtwitch writes fawning articles about his team every few years (2008 & 2011).

It would really be quite simple to stop him from coaching. A few dozen individuals--tier 1 and tier 2 pro triathletes--could all publicly state that they won't work with him because he has violated a basic tenet of the sport, and that they refuse to enable his continued access to minors. Peer pressure would do the rest.


x2

Jordan put it on me to define coaching. Most simply, we can use the old definition of pornography, "I know it when I see it."

Can I define coaching? I could try and people could pick it apart. Triathlon is not my profession though so I don't have a vested interest in entering that debate. That said, we certainly know what "coaching" is when it's as clear cut as it is in Sutton's case. Drive him underground and sure, some may still consult with him. But I think the "grey area" that Jordan points out is pretty small, and the black and white aspect would cover the vast majority. If the ITU simply said "Brett Sutton is banned from coaching" and a few athletes stepped up to support the ban as you said, I think the need for a further definition beyond that would be unnecessary.

I know sexual harassment is banned in my workplace. I haven't searched out a definition to find out what I can get away with, I just don't engage in any behavior that may be remotely consider sexually harassing. There is probably a definition out there, but I don't need it to know what I should and shouldn't be doing.

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Portside Athletics Blog

How much more proof is the head in the sand group going to need that he is still working with kids? I guess people like Jordan can just say they don't agree with it and keep supporting him while thinking that somehow maintains their integrity.

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i m with you on this, if there is proof.... if he actually is working with kids, i m against it.

When i have work with him, he WAS NOT AT ALL. (2009) and told me he would not.

i m sure a few of the pro in cozumel could pitch in on what s happening out there. i was told TBB was having a rookies camp to get new memeber on the team. but the people i know, are all adult.... for exemple, andrew yoder is there right now on a try-out.

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Jonathan Caron / Professional Coach / ironman champions / age group world champions
Jonnyo Coaching
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Sorry for the tangent, but some of this is starting to become a little clearer to me....

I had wondered for a while what the Alaska sponsorship was all about. Was it the state tourism board, Alaska Brewing Company, etc.

The picture posted on the previous page finally got me googling a bit....Alaska Milk Company, the largest dairy producer in the Phillipines.

Side note to the tangent - it drives me crazy when sponsors just put logos on jerseys / shorts with no further clarification. It is just wasted PR opportunities, or worse PR for something completely unrelated to the actual sponsor. This is basic marketing and companies fail the test all the time.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

If he is still working with kids, and I doubt he just suddenly started, then anybody with a brain should be against it. I don't doubt what you said about what happened wihen you worked with him but he has tried and been barred from working with minors before. If he truely cared about what he had done he would never attempt to be anywhere near another situation that could place him in contact with young athletes. He obviously doesn't care though. It reflects worse and worse on those who continue trying to intellectually argue away what he is and has done.

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If he truely cared about what he had done he would never attempt to be anywhere near another situation that could place him in contact with young athletes. He obviously doesn't care though. It reflects worse and worse on those who continue trying to intellectually argue away what he is and has done.

Between this information, and Jordan stating above that he was escorted away from several races during his ban what more information are people looking for that he doesn't care or respect his punishment and the seriousness of what he did, no matter what he might say.

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Portside Athletics Blog

Someone who is truly contrite does not engage in the behavior he did and continues to. Anything he says to the contrary to make people think otherwise is self serving bullshit to get people to support him. Actions speak.

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"He was persona non grata at races - and was actually escorted out of some races - during that period, but the ITU chose not to use their means of enforcement as a punishment of the athletes."

This is yet another disturbing fact about Sutton.

I think this demonstrates another flaw in his character. Which reinforces my ideas about the man.

He was just convicted of molesting a child and given a sentence by his governing body yet, per your post, REPEATEDLY and willfully violated those sanctions. That doesn't sound much to me like a man who was remorseful and understanding of why he was sanctioned. That sounds like a man who felt his punishment was unjustified. "Screw them, I didn't do anything wrong, I'm going to the race to watch my athletes"

And that leads me to wonder about the sincerity of his "speaking out and warning other coaches" about sexual conduct with teen athletes. I wonder if his warning is coming from a "If you get caught it's a big hassle" mindset rather than a "It is morally reprehensible" mindset.

And the fact that he continues to have contact with youth athletes demonstrates a complete lack of judgement/sensitivity by him and the TBB management. That sort of institutional disregard for the seriousness of his past transgressions is why Penn State administrators are being charged as well as Sandusky.

Sample discussion from TBB management:

"Hey, didn't Brett molest a 14 y.o. girl? Maybe we shouldn't let him have contact with our youth athletes.".

"Naw, he said he was sorry. And he's a really good coach. We'll just keep and eye on him. Where is he at these days?"

"Dunno, somewhere doing a girls youth camp I think. Wanna go get some coffee?"

"Sure"

And the fact that he himself doesn't recuse himself from having contact with youth athletes (which is at least demonstrated by the photo and his tweet) is another strike against his character. I would suppose that a lot of us would know that people would be upset if we (if we had been convicted of child molestation) continued to have contact with children. Sample self talk: "Yeah, I really enjoy coaching kids but I totally get that what I did was really bad and that people will be upset if I continue coaching them. Bummer but I'll just have to stick to adults."

Sutton either doesn't feel that what he did precludes him from working with children (again, to me, demonstrating a lack remorse) or, one could argue, he personally feels that he could never, ever under any circumstance do anything like that again and thus feels comfortable continuing to work with youth athletes.

Either could be the case but in the vernacular of the political pundit world "The optics are very, very bad".

And, unfortunately, this is making me have second thoughts about my tolerance for TBB as an organization and TBB athletes in general. If it is true (not 100% verified but it looks like there is some smoke in the air) that Sutton is again coaching youth athletes then TBB athletes should put pressure on the management to stop this. If not then I would have difficulty understanding their continued work with him. That's just me.

surprisingly he did not openly discuss any dodgy things he might be doing with you. Once your wired like that you always are, they don't change. These people are predators.

He got caught left Australia, the leopard does not change his spots, just moves to a different country.

The fact that he's an appalling human does not diminish his ability as a coach, and if you don't mind hanging out with a child molester then he's probably good for you.

Test for all those triathletes forgiving him and understanding, do they forgive and understand all the other scumbags or just Brett because they want the advantage from being coached by him

It's "out of sight, out of mind" mentality from what I'm reading. Reading what now several different pro's have said, they got their time with him, believed he was not working with kids and as long as their time with him didn't include minors, all was good, with the acknowledgment that he messed up early in life.

Now what I find intersting is that with most issues, the more you stay in that environment, the harder it is to actually stay away from what you are suppose to stay away from. But I guess when you can nitpick what "coaching" is, well then there is always seemingly an out. I'm shocked that a coach in his position is still allowed juniors in any triathlon related event (whether coaching, sponsorship, team function). That just kinda seems like its a little too close for comfort, and I'm not suggesting anything wrong will/would happen. Just that in this circumstances, it seems like better judgment could occur. But again, I guess you have to define what "coaching" or else that will continue to be an out.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Brett seemed/seems to have serious issues with Les McDonald, and I am not clear what the exact wording and stipulations of the ITU sanctions were. (EDIT: added the following ->It's also not entirely clear how much was Les McDonald's personal opposition to Brett and how much was an official ITU position.<-) However, yes, I agree that he certainly violated the spirit of the ban, and - in some cases per appearing at ITU events and being escorted away - even the letter of it. However, that was a decade ago (EDIT for clarity - Brett committed this trangsression 25 years ago, but it only came out ~15yrs ago, which helps if someone is trying to do the math on how he could be 52 now, 27 when it happened.), and I was willing to accept that he may have changed, especially in light of what I heard from athletes who worked directly with him.

What really concerns me is that it definitely appears that he is in fact coaching minors, which I really cannot agree with or support. I have tried to get some direct confirmation, as I do not want to assume the worst. That said, it's hard not to. However, there are some circumstances that I would not absolutely decry. E.g., Brett is the head coach of TBB. TBB has a youth program that Brett thinks is a positive thing. As long as his role in the program is administrative - and not direct involvement with any of the kids - I can sort of see that being okay (like our LAPD cop getting a desk job with the NYPD). In other words, I think, for example, that he should be allowed to write a book, "swim technique for juniors;" I definitely do not think that he should be allowed to show that swim technique to juniors firsthand.

But, as I said, this is definitely the first I've heard of it. And if it's clear that he is working with minors, I do not support that, and will speak with Dan and Herbert to make sure that Slowtwitch doesn't support that, and I will cease to engage with Brett. I certainly won't bury my head in the sand, but I'd like to get some first hand confirmation - not just a 140 character comment and a single news article. I hope that is understandable.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

E.g., Brett is the head coach of TBB. TBB has a youth program that Brett thinks is a positive thing. As long as his role in the program is administrative - and not direct involvement with any of the kids - I can sort of see that being okay (like our LAPD cop getting a desk job with the NYPD).

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I cant if it puts him in contact with juniors at any point in the coaching/team aspects, and that's already been shown to happen.

ETA: When you get too close to the fire, you are very likely to get burned. From the accounts on here, it already seems to show that Sutton has been put in some situations that have him directly in contact with juniors. Now if you want clarify exactly what he can or cant do, then fair enough, but I just find it very hard to put an coach in an situation where the boundary seems to be ever moving around. X is ok if it deals with juniors by Y isnt because it's too close of contact. That just seems to basically want to self cloudy the waters, more than anything. If someone wants to strike out on their own than fair enough, but to be part of a structured junior program, where it's pretty evident he's already in some capacity interacting with juniors, well seems unfortunate.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I've never been a big fan of "appearances". Meaning I care how things are not what they appear to be. But in the case of something like rape of a minor I think appearances also matter. Brett may well be scrupulous in making sure he isn't in contact with minors without adult supervision or arents around, but stuff like the picture of him surrounded by kids, and even him endorsing a kids triathlon team is going to cause concern and questions.

If he wants to support youth triathlon he can donate money to an existing team, there doesn't need to be a Kids Team TBB.

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Styrrell

That is very understandable, I just hope you'll report back with what you hear, whether you like what you hear or not. I trust that you will and you committment to making sure ST does the same is admirable.

Thanks, apologies again for my sloppy wording earlier.

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Portside Athletics Blog

To that end, whether he is officially coaching those kids or not, as is plainly obvious, he is at a minimum doing photo ops with minors. He is also responsible for the funding of that Jr. Team.

That, by itself, puts him in a position if influence and power over those kids.

Flat out wrong. Whether he is directly coaching those minors or not is not the issue. Being in a position if power over them is.

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Chicago Cubs - 2016 WORLD SERIES Champions!!!!

"If ever the time should come, when vain and aspiring men shall possess the highest seats in government, our country will stand in need of its experienced patriots to prevent its ruin." - Samuel Adams

It is my understanding that Alex Bok, owner of TBB, is going to reply directly to this thread, so I will hopefully not have to serve as a go-between. I will not reply to this thread again until Alex has had a chance to reply or unless I hear that Alex can't/won't.

I don't expect that Alex's answer will please everyone, regardless of what it is; one thing about which there is definitely no grey is that Brett is like religion and politics (or both) to people. But I would ask that folks at least be respectful. There's been a lot of "guilt by association" in this thread, but hopefully we can at least give Alex a chance to speak without going ad hominem on him simply because he chooses to give Brett a second chance that some (many) on here think he shouldn't have.

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"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp

I'll be honest and say I am not optimistic we are going to get the whole story given that Bok has a financial stake in Sutton and Sutton's reputation...we'll see though. You have to recognize the conflict of interest there.

But as you said, let's at least give him a chance.

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Portside Athletics Blog

This thread makes it sound like their is no grey area, but I think it exists. I really have no issue with adults, who know his history seeking his help. I don't think he should have any coaching or advising, in person, with minors. Primarily for the minors sake but also for his.

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Styrrell

I think the grey area has allowed him contact with minors and in more than just an "adminstrative" role. But that's just my take on the info that has been provided in this thread from pages 7 and 8. So I guess it goes back to Rapp's discussion about having to define what "coaching" is, and what is or isnt allowed. ETA: Which is why as the other poster said, I'll be curious to the actually explaination they have about Sutton's involvement with their team and juniors, and how they define that involvement.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com