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Brett Sutton Article

 

 


bcagle25

Jan 9, 13 14:33

Post #1 of 390 (14546 views)
Brett Sutton Article Quote | Reply

Say what you will about the site of the article, but the guy really is interesting. I especially enjoy the quote below from an elite age-grouper


"Carter had immediately resigned from his lifeguard job on Australia’s Gold Coast, sold off his furniture and belongings and borrowed $5,000. He arrived in Leysin with his bicycle, a small bag of clothing and the understanding that Sutton was now in charge of his life...Just outside the town of Martigny, the van abruptly stops. Sutton steps out from the driver’s seat and greets his athletes. He gives simple instructions—run the 26 miles back home. The pace is to be conversational; nobody should be dropped. When the group hits the 6-mile, 3,000-foot climb back to Leysin, it is every man for himself."

You can read the rest of the article here. I have respect for anyone like Carter that sells everything they have to work with this man, it will be interesting to see how this guy turns out.





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Trexlera

Jan 9, 13 15:20

Post #2 of 390 (14427 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [bcagle25] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I think one of the most interesting things he said was about how Wellington might have raced until she was 45. It's been said before, but it's actually rather sad for the sport she is now gone, and I wonder if she'd held back more, if she might have lasted longer.
That's a pretty deep psychological question, though, so who knows.


Rappstar

Jan 9, 13 15:40

Post #3 of 390 (14362 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [bcagle25] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

For some additional perspective, it's worth reading Brett's most recent post about his own kids. His daughters. For those who rip into him on this forum for the mistake(s) he made, it's some interesting perspective. I used to think the same way - he's a sleeze. Then I realized that I didn't really know him at all and was overlooking the fact that a lot of very smart and capable athletes trust him and care about him a lot. We've since become friends on email. Anyway...

The classic parts of Sutton get hammered on here a lot. This is something very different - http://www.teamtbb.com/...ask=view&id=1534


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bcagle25

Jan 9, 13 16:01

Post #4 of 390 (14279 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

This is a fantastic article indeed and opens my eyes to a Sutton I never knew. He really hits it on the head when he mentions that kids should just play sports, his example of the soccer team practicing for 2 hours and maybe playing 15 minutes of the game really is a microcosm of what is going on in the U.S. I remember when I was in high school 9-13 years ago, and where I went it was all about winning, and developing into the next level. What happened to the days of letting kids play the sport they want to play, where winning isn't the only thing? I understand the competition and that is good and has it's place, but it can really take away from the enjoyment of the sport. A friend of mine earned a full-ride scholarship to play D-1 football, but was so burnt out from camps, practices, coaches, etc that he quit before college.

Kids youth is very important, and sport plays a huge role in their development not only athletically, but socially, cognitively, etc. When you put some much emphasis on pushing our youth so hard, it takes away from the pure enjoyment in the sport, and what Sutton says in his post "I just let my kids play what they want.". It is now becoming what the parents what their kids to play (sometimes to live vicariously of their HS dream falling a bit short), instead of what the KIDS want to play, most coaches do not help this situation either.

That should be an article every parents needs to read the day their first child is born.
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asianzone

Jan 9, 13 18:12

Post #5 of 390 (14047 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [bcagle25] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Interesting read!!

Didn;t realize that TBB paid their stars that well. Caroline steffen getting 150K is quite impressive, so much for triathletes living hand to mouth!


Timtek

Jan 9, 13 19:08

Post #6 of 390 (13884 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [asianzone] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

asianzone wrote:
Interesting read!!

Didn;t realize that TBB paid their stars that well. Caroline steffen getting 150K is quite impressive, so much for triathletes living hand to mouth!

She is widely-considered a top five pro at IM distance (if not top 3), so to lump her with every pro seems a bit off.
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DaveyHoy

Jan 9, 13 19:34

Post #7 of 390 (13812 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Sutton's right - let the kids play. They'll play with joy and imagination which is it's own worthwhile result. Feeling the beauty of the game is something that won't happen in over structured practice sessions at early ages. Artists or technicians.


Yknot

Jan 9, 13 21:02

Post #8 of 390 (13668 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Rappstar wrote:
For some additional perspective, it's worth reading Brett's most recent post about his own kids. His daughters. For those who rip into him on this forum for the mistake(s) he made, it's some interesting perspective. I used to think the same way - he's a sleeze. Then I realized that I didn't really know him at all and was overlooking the fact that a lot of very smart and capable athletes trust him and care about him a lot. We've since become friends on email. Anyway...

The classic parts of Sutton get hammered on here a lot. This is something very different - http://www.teamtbb.com/...ask=view&id=1534

What he did wasn't a mistake; it was a failure of morality. I assure you a longer list of smart and capable athletes trusted and cared about Joe Paterno- what are your thoughts on him? Then remember that his was a failure to act while Sutton's is more on the Sandusky level.

Sutton's coaching accomplishments mean little to me and how he treats his daughters means substantially less than how he treated another man's little girl.


NAB777

Jan 9, 13 21:34

Post #9 of 390 (13636 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Rappstar wrote:
Then I realized that I didn't really know him at all and was overlooking the fact that a lot of very smart and capable athletes trust him and care about him a lot. We've since become friends on email. Anyway...

Disturbing.


SpicedRum

Jan 9, 13 22:26

Post #10 of 390 (13572 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Yknot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Joe P and Sandusky never owned up to what they did. Difference.


Joe C.

Jan 10, 13 5:03

Post #11 of 390 (13294 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Yknot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

My question on someone like Sutton: Isn't it possible he has redeemed himself at some point? He pleaded guilty, got booted from sport in his own country, openly expressed remorse, spent a long time in "exile", hasn't repeated the offense, and has lived a very constructive life since.

Finally, the company you keep says a lot about you. I think he has overcome his past crime and now merits respect.

-------
Joe



bjorn

Jan 10, 13 6:04

Post #12 of 390 (13177 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Rappstar wrote:
For some additional perspective, it's worth reading Brett's most recent post about his own kids. His daughters. For those who rip into him on this forum for the mistake(s) he made, it's some interesting perspective. I used to think the same way - he's a sleeze. Then I realized that I didn't really know him at all and was overlooking the fact that a lot of very smart and capable athletes trust him and care about him a lot. We've since become friends on email. Anyway...

The classic parts of Sutton get hammered on here a lot. This is something very different -http://www.teamtbb.com/...ask=view&id=1534[/quote[/url]]


How many of those people do you think would trust and care about him if they didn't think he could make them into world class athletes? The success of someone makes us forget, forgive and overlook a lot of things. This might not be the worst case but it's a somewhat scary phenomena.

As for the article you link I do agree with quite a few things but I think some of it is extremely simplified. For example I'd bet that the biggest difference between swiss and brazilian soccer is not how they practice. The total amount of soccer players and the amount of time they spend playing soccer dwarfs any other factor in this comparsion. Kids have different possiblities and consequently different priorities in some parts of the world.



BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se


(This post was edited by bjorn on Jan 10, 13 6:06)


GMAN19030

Jan 10, 13 6:08

Post #13 of 390 (13161 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Rappstar wrote:
For some additional perspective, it's worth reading Brett's most recent post about his own kids. His daughters. For those who rip into him on this forum for the mistake(s) he made, it's some interesting perspective. I used to think the same way - he's a sleeze. Then I realized that I didn't really know him at all and was overlooking the fact that a lot of very smart and capable athletes trust him and care about him a lot. We've since become friends on email. Anyway...

The classic parts of Sutton get hammered on here a lot. This is something very different - http://www.teamtbb.com/...ask=view&id=1534

Jordan,
Thanks for that link to Sutton's article about kids and sports. I am so turned off to youth athletics. It has become so hyper-competitive and ridiculous. My kid will turn eight in a few months. He is very athletic but he doesn't have a competitive mindset and frankly just doesn't care whether he wins, loses or even plays well. He just likes to play something and have fun. I live in a very upper middle class 'burb of Houston. My kid just doesn't mesh well in the youth sports system in place in my area because it's all about extracting every iota of talent out of the kid in the hopes they can succeed at the next level. Parents have no problems spending thousands of dollars on 5-10 year olds to get them private coaching or into elite leagues or keeping their young kids up until 11pm on weeknights because they had a game or practice. I have no problem with that at the high school level where the talent is more obvious and an end game (like a college scholarship) is in sight. But for a 6 or 7 year old??? Pushing a kid that young is questionable at best.

It sucks because if my kid ever gives a shit about sports I feel that he will be so behind the eight ball he could never catch up to the kids that have been part of the ridiculous system since they were 5 or 6. I'm fine with that but I'm not sure how I'll be able to convey that to him if the time comes.


avagoyamug

Jan 10, 13 6:18

Post #14 of 390 (13125 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Yknot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

 

What he did wasn't a mistake; it was a failure of morality. I assure you a longer list of smart and capable athletes trusted and cared about Joe Paterno- what are your thoughts on him? Then remember that his was a failure to act while Sutton's is more on the Sandusky level.

Sutton's coaching accomplishments mean little to me and how he treats his daughters means substantially less than how he treated another man's little girl.[/quote]
To compare Sutton with Sandusky is a travesty. Sutton had one consensual relationship with a 14/15 year old girl that he coached. The police interviewed every single other athlete he coached and there was no other incidence. He did wrong no doubt. It was a different time and he is a different person now. On balance I think he has done more good than harm on earth.


tttiltheend

Jan 10, 13 6:19

Post #15 of 390 (13118 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [bcagle25] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Without even getting into his past, this man is just so not someone I'm going to look up to... I"m sure for some people his insistence on cult-like devotion and servitude is the best path to athletic success but that doesn't mean we have to hold up his old school, control freak methods as the ideal of the ultimate coach. No powermeters (can't have athletes understand their own physiology and training), total obedience, no science, only art (when really there's a place for both)... No thanks.

And I find his endless badmouthing of Chrissie Wellington really tedious. As if there is no reason she might not want to be part of his cult and give up a large part of her earnings potential to him. She seems intelligent and well educated, and triathlon is probably not her only chance to make her mark in life, why not give it her all for a few years, make a big splash, and then move on?


LuisDF

Jan 10, 13 6:32

Post #16 of 390 (13078 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

run a traffic light is a mistake... what he did... pfff don't want to read any of his crap

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TriGirrrrl

Jan 10, 13 6:32

Post #17 of 390 (13076 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

avagoyamug wrote:


What he did wasn't a mistake; it was a failure of morality. I assure you a longer list of smart and capable athletes trusted and cared about Joe Paterno- what are your thoughts on him? Then remember that his was a failure to act while Sutton's is more on the Sandusky level.

Sutton's coaching accomplishments mean little to me and how he treats his daughters means substantially less than how he treated another man's little girl.

To compare Sutton with Sandusky is a travesty. Sutton had one consensual relationship with a 14/15 year old girl that he coached. The police interviewed every single other athlete he coached and there was no other incidence. He did wrong no doubt. It was a different time and he is a different person now. On balance I think he has done more good than harm on earth.


there is no such thing as a consensual relationship of an adult with a minor child. At BEST it is statutory rape. Worse because he was her coach - a power position. Truly a predatory transgression.

I don't think it unfair to compare Sutton and Sandusky as it is a similar theme of adult in power exploiting minor child. The difference is that (from what we know) Sutton has not repeated the action


(This post was edited by TriGirrrrl on Jan 10, 13 7:18)


avagoyamug

Jan 10, 13 6:40

Post #18 of 390 (13049 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [TriGirrrrl] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Its a distasteful topic granted but you are assuming that a 14/15 year old girl has no sexual drive, and it's pretty clear that is incorrect.
from all reports she seduced him and he never said that once in public to protect her.

There is so much difference between Sandusky using power to Seduce 12 year old boys and Sutton that if you really think the only difference is the number of people affected you are simpy wrong.


Deej

Jan 10, 13 6:53

Post #19 of 390 (13011 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [bcagle25] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

x2



Head down, thumbs up, give'r


iron_mike

Jan 10, 13 6:56

Post #20 of 390 (12992 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

a few things stand out from that sutton article, as with most of his that i've read:

-first, the man's in dire (dire) need of an editor
-second: let kids play. we get it.
-third, and most interesting to me, is the relationship of presumed antagonism between sutton and . . . almost everyone else. again and again in his articles the theme emerges that it's sutton against the world, that he's the only rational man in a world of idiots, that he has to constantly rail against all manner of people and things. weird and sort of tiresome.

-mike
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jackmott

Jan 10, 13 7:33

Post #21 of 390 (12891 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [iron_mike] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I know, he has it all wrong.
It's *me* that is the only rational man in a world of idiots....and a couple other guys ;)


iron_mike wrote:
-third, and most interesting to me, is the relationship of presumed antagonism between sutton and . . . almost everyone else. again and again in his articles the theme emerges that it's sutton against the world, that he's the only rational man in a world of idiots, that he has to constantly rail against all manner of people and things. weird and sort of tiresome.

-mike


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TriGirrrrl

Jan 10, 13 8:40

Post #22 of 390 (12751 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

avagoyamug wrote:
Its a distasteful topic granted but you are assuming that a 14/15 year old girl has no sexual drive, and it's pretty clear that is incorrect.
from all reports she seduced him and he never said that once in public to protect her.

There is so much difference between Sandusky using power to Seduce 12 year old boys and Sutton that if you really think the only difference is the number of people affected you are simpy wrong.

his job as the ADULT and COACH was to NOT be seduced.
I don't care if she got naked and crawled on top of him


realAlbertan

Jan 10, 13 9:09

Post #23 of 390 (12660 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [TriGirrrrl] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I agree they are apples and oranges. A 14 year old can't consent in most juriadictions to any adult nevermind the fact that he was an authority figure to her. He expolited a power and control situation. Honestly I am amazed and how much he travels given his sex offender status. He probably requires additional entry visa paperwork.
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realAlbertan

Jan 10, 13 9:12

Post #24 of 390 (12648 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Apoligize some more for him... <pink>
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SlayerHatebreed

Jan 10, 13 9:22

Post #25 of 390 (12601 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [trexleradam] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

It would have been unfortunate if Wellington had continued to race had her heart not been in it any more... sad is when 20+ people get gunned down in Connecticut.

Every IM she raced she won, set records, and elevated the game of women's long course multisport. She went out on top, undefeated. I'm not sure why people think this is sad - I think it's refrshing.


Rappstar

Jan 10, 13 9:53

Post #26 of 390 (4611 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Yknot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Yknot wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
For some additional perspective, it's worth reading Brett's most recent post about his own kids. His daughters. For those who rip into him on this forum for the mistake(s) he made, it's some interesting perspective. I used to think the same way - he's a sleeze. Then I realized that I didn't really know him at all and was overlooking the fact that a lot of very smart and capable athletes trust him and care about him a lot. We've since become friends on email. Anyway...

The classic parts of Sutton get hammered on here a lot. This is something very different - http://www.teamtbb.com/...ask=view&id=1534

What he did wasn't a mistake; it was a failure of morality. I assure you a longer list of smart and capable athletes trusted and cared about Joe Paterno- what are your thoughts on him? Then remember that his was a failure to act while Sutton's is more on the Sandusky level.

Sutton's coaching accomplishments mean little to me and how he treats his daughters means substantially less than how he treated another man's little girl.

The difference is that every athlete who signs up with Sutton knows about his past. He admitted to his crime, and it was a heinous crime; I do not deny, and neither does Brett. And he served the sentence he was given. That is - to me anyway - a significant difference. I respect that you may not see that as being a difference or being significant.

To Bjorn's point, I won't attempt to speak for other athletes in terms of what they will/won't overlook in Brett's past because of what they think he might offer them. It's a more cynical view of our peers than I'm willing to take to say that they only overlook it because of what might be in it for them. Do I accept that might be the reality? Sure. But I also accept that it might now be, and I have enough faith in the character of the athletes that I have known on TBB to assume it's the latter.

I also think it's interesting that people perceive him as badmouthing Chrissie. I don't think he ever badmouths her. I think he badmouths the people around her. In that sense, I actually think he gives Chrissie a bit of a free pass, since she chose who she wanted to surround herself with. But I think it's all out of a sense of loss. What "could have been" with Chrissie. I think we all have a bit of that sense of loss. If there is a person who doesn't think we all lost something special when Chrissie retired, I think that person is crazy.

Lastly, I also think Sutton's coaching accomplishments - the titles - are actually less profound than his care for the sport and for his athletes. I think he cares about being a steward of the sport. I think he violated that stewardship in a major way when he engaged in sexual relations with a minor, and a minor who was under his tutelage. And, more importantly, I think he believes that he violated that stewardship. And I think he's doing what he can to make up for that. In short, I think he cares about leaving the world and the sport in a better place, and I think that in large part he's motivated by the fact that he's got a lot to do to even get back to zero - if he can ever get there - in a lot of people's eyes.

What I like about Brett is that - in contrast to a lot of people who have transgressed in serious ways - he does NOT want people to forget what he's done. He wants them to forgive it. And he's working hard to earn that forgiveness, in spite of the fact that he knows that a lot of people will never give it.


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Noof

Jan 10, 13 10:47

Post #27 of 390 (4509 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I have always loved reading posts, or articles of Sutton. I could never word it like Rappster, but he summed up my reasons.


nameless ghoul

Jan 10, 13 11:14

Post #28 of 390 (4456 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

a few points:

1. If you had had a girl instead of a boy you'd have a vastly different opinion..

2. In terms of the character of the athletes on his team. Triathletes are a self absorbed bunch and that's what it takes to reach the top of any sport. But to overlook this 'transgression'..well, im sorry, i don't know how you do it. If he had done the same thing as a gas station attendant who coached part time and never reached his current status no one , not a single person on this board who support him in anyway. But since he is the almighty coach of world champion triathletes he automatically will have more people 'forgiving' than normally would. That being said, he certainly has a right to make a living. I'm sure he's paid over and over for his sins.

3. Some crimes are just not forgivable...

4. It's no one's place to forgive except for that teenage girl. Does anyone have any idea if she has 'forgiven' him? Did she turn out all screwed up?


Maui5150

Jan 10, 13 11:16

Post #29 of 390 (4448 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

avagoyamug wrote:


To compare Sutton with Sandusky is a travesty. Sutton had one consensual relationship with a 14/15 year old girl that he coached. The police interviewed every single other athlete he coached and there was no other incidence. He did wrong no doubt. It was a different time and he is a different person now. On balance I think he has done more good than harm on earth.

Gotta disagree here. You may argue consensuality of a 16/17 year old and I might buy that based upon maturity, life experience, but I would still err on it being immoral, less immoral if the ages are close, like a 18 year old with a 16 year old. Still wrong. Something I have and lived by being off limits.

14 / 15? Sorry. especially this day and age, far to over sexualized and the mental capacity / maturity is not there, not to mention the manipulative difference of someone in a position of authority who can often be looked to as having that persons "best interests" involved.

the person in question ultimately may have been a "willing" participant, but that still does not rise, at least in my moral and understanding of the term, to a consensually possible outcome. That is why the act is considered statutory rape. Person may have been willing, or person may have in fact been the aggressor, morality and the law says it is a no-no, and it is up to the adult to control their hormones, understand the consequences


devashish_paul

Jan 10, 13 11:35

Post #30 of 390 (4411 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [TriGirrrrl] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

TriGirrrrl wrote:
avagoyamug wrote:
Its a distasteful topic granted but you are assuming that a 14/15 year old girl has no sexual drive, and it's pretty clear that is incorrect.
from all reports she seduced him and he never said that once in public to protect her.

There is so much difference between Sandusky using power to Seduce 12 year old boys and Sutton that if you really think the only difference is the number of people affected you are simpy wrong.


his job as the ADULT and COACH was to NOT be seduced.
I don't care if she got naked and crawled on top of him

x2

Parents entrust their pride and joy to coaches all over the world. Coaches of teenagers have a far greater responsibility than a random adult. There is a very good reason why he is banned from coaching is Australia and it is because he crossed over one of the basic lines that should never be crossed in coaching teens. Sorry, on this one, I give him no second chances. At least here in Canada (and I am sure they have the equivalent in Oz) in the Intro to Community Coaching Module that you have to take in every NCCP course (regardless of sport) there is a big section devoted to that. I coach teens in an XC ski club and also coach the team at my son's high school. Both the national federations and the school boards are very up front of the expected behaviour of all coaches. Sorry Sutton....no forgiveness on this one!

For anyone to blame the 15 year old for seducing him is ridiculous. Nothing like blaming the rape victim....come on people, we're better than that (I hope).

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Trexlera

Jan 10, 13 11:37

Post #31 of 390 (4404 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [SlayerHatebreed] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

SlayerHatebreed wrote:
It would have been unfortunate if Wellington had continued to race had her heart not been in it any more... sad is when 20+ people get gunned down in Connecticut.

Every IM she raced she won, set records, and elevated the game of women's long course multisport. She went out on top, undefeated. I'm not sure why people think this is sad - I think it's refrshing.

I agree that it would have been unfortunate if Wellington continued to race in her current state. My point is that she apparently destroyed herself to the extent that her heart was no longer in it. She may well be the greatest long distance triathlete of all time, and she's no longer doing it. That, to me, is sad.

20+ children getting gunned down in Connecticut is horrific, not just sad. But it's interesting that's the only thing that registers on your emotional radar.


bjorn

Jan 10, 13 11:43

Post #32 of 390 (4386 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Cynical? Why do you think every other pro came running to him after his success with Chrissie? I doubt it was because they wanted to be best pals with him.. There is not exactly a lack of coaches to choose from out there and anyone who makes a decision on coaching has to weigh the pro and cons of the coach. I think most people would lie if they claimed Bretts past is not a relatively big con but obviously the athletes who still choose him over other high performance coaches think other things outweigh that. Not sure how anyone can dispute that.

The question of how bad it is to enable someone who commited his crime in the context of coaching to continue in that profession is one I'm not exactly sure of in this case, but it should probably never be taken lightly. I know some excellent people who are coached and have been coached by him and I don't question their character but at the same time the whole concept bothers me slightly.



BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se

(This post was edited by bjorn on Jan 10, 13 13:22)


duncan

Jan 10, 13 12:12

Post #33 of 390 (4315 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [realAlbertan] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

realAlbertan wrote:
A 14 year old can't consent in most juriadictions

Age of consent is 14 or 15 in many European countries: http://en.wikipedia.org/...of_consent_in_Europe


SlayerHatebreed

Jan 10, 13 12:39

Post #34 of 390 (4259 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [trexleradam] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Maybe she accomplished all she ever wanted to, we'll never know. We assume so much nowadays.

No, mass murders aren't the only thing that registers on my emotional radar - another assumption.


SlayerHatebreed

Jan 10, 13 12:43

Post #35 of 390 (4246 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

"What could have been with Chrissie"

What the heck are you talking about... she accomplished everything and in many eyes, including my own, was the best ever. She was never beaten. What else more where you expecting? How many titles is enough?

Of course we lost something special when she retired.


Triathletetoth

Jan 10, 13 13:17

Post #36 of 390 (4188 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [bcagle25] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I have heard I few people mention this dropped of to run back as a great coaching thing to do. How does that differ from finishing a 26 mile run from we're you start. The idea is so over looked. I had my wife drop we off 120 km away from penticton and rode one direction. It sucks I had a giant tail wind and was going 45- 50 km/ hr without hitting zone2.
Technique will always last longer then energy production. Improve biomechanics, improve performance.
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Trexlera

Jan 10, 13 13:19

Post #37 of 390 (4183 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [SlayerHatebreed] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

SlayerHatebreed wrote:
Maybe she accomplished all she ever wanted to, we'll never know. We assume so much nowadays.
I said as much in my original post. Impossible to say about her inner motivations and state.
But I loved having her in the sport and selfishly wish she hadn't retired.


SlayerHatebreed

Jan 10, 13 13:19

Post #38 of 390 (4183 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Triathletetoth] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Brett Sutton, is that you?


bcagle25

Jan 10, 13 13:22

Post #39 of 390 (4173 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Triathletetoth] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I don't think it is so much about running 26 miles, but instead the way that it was prescribed. Get out of the van, hi nice to meet you, here is your route. They had no idea until they were told to do so. Much different from a 26 mile run that is planned. To each their own though, lots of people don't think Sutton's ways work, but he must be doing something right.
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Rappstar

Jan 10, 13 13:28

Post #40 of 390 (4156 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [SlayerHatebreed] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

SlayerHatebreed wrote:
"What could have been with Chrissie"

What the heck are you talking about... she accomplished everything and in many eyes, including my own, was the best ever. She was never beaten. What else more where you expecting? How many titles is enough?

Of course we lost something special when she retired.


For a guy who hammers other people about making assumptions, you are making a whole bunch yourself right there about my post. Why do you assume that I'm talking about titles? By not racing, her influence on the sport is diminished. I'm sure there are some who will disagree with that, but when she retired, she sacrificed a lot of her platform. I think Chrissie could have changed the sport in much, much more meaningful ways than just raising the bar on competition. She still might. But I think it will be harder to do that if she is not racing. Now, I don't think she needed to do that, by any means. She gave the sport and all of us a lot. But I think there was really no limit to what she could have done within the sport as a leader. And THAT is what I mean when I say "what could have been." And that's also what I think Brett is referring to.


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Muh

Jan 10, 13 13:31

Post #41 of 390 (4145 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [duncan] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

The age of consent in Canada was 14 until 2008 (changed to 16). Although in cases of authority the age is 18.


Although I agree with the base argument with respect to Sutton, I have trouble forgiving but simply because it would put me on a slippery slope towards supporting the reinstatement of Cecil Russell, something I am not inclined to do.
____________________________________________

"which is like watching one of your buddies announce that he's quitting booze and cigarettes, switching to a Vegan diet and training for triathalons ... but he's going to keep snorting heroin." Bill Simmons, ESPN


SlayerHatebreed

Jan 10, 13 13:44

Post #42 of 390 (4108 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Fair enough. I'm more optimistic than you that she'll be able to actually make more change in her causes now that she'll have much more free time/energy. She can always use her athletic accomplishments from her past as credentials to be heard.

Hammering people? I hammer Dev regularly, I wasn't hammering the poster above.


Nick Mallett

Jan 10, 13 13:44

Post #43 of 390 (4106 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [trexleradam] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

trexleradam wrote:
SlayerHatebreed wrote:
Maybe she accomplished all she ever wanted to, we'll never know. We assume so much nowadays.

I said as much in my original post. Impossible to say about her inner motivations and state.
But I loved having her in the sport and selfishly wish she hadn't retired.

---

Chrissie said that she had given as much as she could to Ironman and was now moving on to persue other things in life.It was a hard decision for her but one she is very happy with..It is really that simple..

----


(This post was edited by Ultra-tri-guy on Jan 10, 13 13:45)


SlayerHatebreed

Jan 10, 13 13:50

Post #44 of 390 (4090 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [trexleradam] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Agreed. I also feel that any female IM Kona champ from 2012-2016ish will always be remembered mostly as champ-because-Wellington-retired in the theme of Carfrae's '10 win, Smyers' '95 or Welch's '94 with Allen absent.

But many respond with the "you can only race who shows up" cliche which is also fair.


NAB777

Jan 10, 13 14:26

Post #45 of 390 (4029 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Rappstar wrote:
Yknot wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
For some additional perspective, it's worth reading Brett's most recent post about his own kids. His daughters. For those who rip into him on this forum for the mistake(s) he made, it's some interesting perspective. I used to think the same way - he's a sleeze. Then I realized that I didn't really know him at all and was overlooking the fact that a lot of very smart and capable athletes trust him and care about him a lot. We've since become friends on email. Anyway...

The classic parts of Sutton get hammered on here a lot. This is something very different - http://www.teamtbb.com/...ask=view&id=1534


What he did wasn't a mistake; it was a failure of morality. I assure you a longer list of smart and capable athletes trusted and cared about Joe Paterno- what are your thoughts on him? Then remember that his was a failure to act while Sutton's is more on the Sandusky level.

Sutton's coaching accomplishments mean little to me and how he treats his daughters means substantially less than how he treated another man's little girl.


The difference is that every athlete who signs up with Sutton knows about his past. He admitted to his crime, and it was a heinous crime; I do not deny, and neither does Brett. And he served the sentence he was given. That is - to me anyway - a significant difference. I respect that you may not see that as being a difference or being significant.

What I like about Brett is that - in contrast to a lot of people who have transgressed in serious ways - he does NOT want people to forget what he's done. He wants them to forgive it. And he's working hard to earn that forgiveness, in spite of the fact that he knows that a lot of people will never give it.

You're a smart guy. I suggest you do a bit more research on the case, and also on the personality traits of people that commit the crimes such as the one Sutton committed. Everything that comes out of his mouth is for his own benefit. Manipulators are master conmen.


Trexlera

Jan 10, 13 14:35

Post #46 of 390 (4010 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Ultra-tri-guy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Ultra-tri-guy wrote:
trexleradam wrote:
SlayerHatebreed wrote:
Maybe she accomplished all she ever wanted to, we'll never know. We assume so much nowadays.

I said as much in my original post. Impossible to say about her inner motivations and state.
But I loved having her in the sport and selfishly wish she hadn't retired.

---

Chrissie said that she had given as much as she could to Ironman and was now moving on to persue other things in life.It was a hard decision for her but one she is very happy with..It is really that simple..

----
I'm happy she's happy, but athletic motivations are rarely simple.


NAB777

Jan 10, 13 14:36

Post #47 of 390 (4005 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

avagoyamug wrote:

To compare Sutton with Sandusky is a travesty. Sutton had one consensual relationship with a 14/15 year old girl that he coached. The police interviewed every single other athlete he coached and there was no other incidence. He did wrong no doubt. It was a different time and he is a different person now. On balance I think he has done more good than harm on earth.

Do you realize what you have written? An adult having a 'consensual relationship' with a 14 year old..? That's pretty sick.
Sutton & Lance - they'd make good pair. It's everyone else's fault.

His questionable behaviour didn't stop after the multiple incidents with the 14 year old girl.


AlwaysCurious

Jan 10, 13 14:40

Post #48 of 390 (3989 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [bcagle25] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

He criticizes Mark Allen and Dave Scott as not being "real" coaches because they coach age groupers. But yet Chrissie left, in part, because Sutton was holding her back from receiving the pay she was truly worth as a pro.

How ironic that Chrissie eventually moved on to be coached by Dave Scott.

Even forgetting (or forgiving) Sutton's rape conviction, he continually reaffirms that he's not a world-class coach. Coaching is about more than making athletes winners in competition--it includes showing them how to professionally interact with competitors, the press, and the public without being catty or denigrating. He continually fails in this.

(This post was edited by AlwaysCurious on Jan 10, 13 14:50)


Dilbert

Jan 10, 13 14:51

Post #49 of 390 (3964 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [bcagle25] (Deleted by Dilbert) [In reply to]

 


avagoyamug

Jan 10, 13 14:53

Post #50 of 390 (3959 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [NAB777] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

NAB777 wrote:
avagoyamug wrote:

To compare Sutton with Sandusky is a travesty. Sutton had one consensual relationship with a 14/15 year old girl that he coached. The police interviewed every single other athlete he coached and there was no other incidence. He did wrong no doubt. It was a different time and he is a different person now. On balance I think he has done more good than harm on earth.

Do you realize what you have written? An adult having a 'consensual relationship' with a 14 year old..? That's pretty sick.
Sutton & Lance - they'd make good pair. It's everyone else's fault.

His questionable behaviour didn't stop after the multiple incidents with the 14 year old girl.

Save the drama queen act sweetheart.

I said that is was wrong. What I am saying is that there are degrees of wrong and what he did it is not in the same post code as what Sandusky did or what every second catholic priest has done all over the world that are still protected by that evil corporation, even today.

If you feel that what he did and molesting 6-12 year old boys are the same because there are no degrees of wrong, just either right or wrong, then go ahead. I just don't see it that way.

He has paid for what he did again and again and will continue to do so for the rest of his life. Its part of the reason he is doing so much good at the moment as he is trying to make amends.

And by the way, the girl in question married on of Australia's top triathletes (now Tri coach) and has been for over ten years. She's fine.


NAB777

Jan 10, 13 15:00

Post #51 of 390 (4204 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

avagoyamug wrote:
NAB777 wrote:
avagoyamug wrote:

To compare Sutton with Sandusky is a travesty. Sutton had one consensual relationship with a 14/15 year old girl that he coached. The police interviewed every single other athlete he coached and there was no other incidence. He did wrong no doubt. It was a different time and he is a different person now. On balance I think he has done more good than harm on earth.


Do you realize what you have written? An adult having a 'consensual relationship' with a 14 year old..? That's pretty sick.
Sutton & Lance - they'd make good pair. It's everyone else's fault.

His questionable behaviour didn't stop after the multiple incidents with the 14 year old girl.


Save the drama queen act sweetheart.

I said that is was wrong. What I am saying is that there are degrees of wrong and what he did it is not in the same post code as what Sandusky did or what every second catholic priest has done all over the world that are still protected by that evil corporation, even today.

If you feel that what he did and molesting 6-12 year old boys are the same because there are no degrees of wrong, just either right or wrong, then go ahead. I just don't see it that way.

He has paid for what he did again and again and will continue to do so for the rest of his life. Its part of the reason he is doing so much good at the moment as he is trying to make amends.

And by the way, the girl in question married on of Australia's top triathletes (now Tri coach) and has been for over ten years. She's fine.

She's had a Spot of trouble though... if you really know the facts.


nameless ghoul

Jan 10, 13 15:39

Post #52 of 390 (4149 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

just curious as to what you feel chrissie could do to better the sport? (being sincere here)...

other than raising the bar for women's competition im really not sure what she's done. i dont see increased prize purses for pros. i dont know a single person who didnt know anything about triathlon before who now all of a sudden knows who chrissie is. i dont know any current triathletes who go 'im going to race more because of chrissie, shes so inspirational'...what am i missing here?

dont get me wrong shes a great personality and i love watching her race but im not sure what tangible impact shes had.


AlwaysCurious

Jan 10, 13 15:47

Post #53 of 390 (4129 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [butch] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

butch wrote:
just curious as to what you feel chrissie could do to better the sport? (being sincere here)...

other than raising the bar for women's competition im really not sure what she's done. i dont see increased prize purses for pros. i dont know a single person who didnt know anything about triathlon before who now all of a sudden knows who chrissie is. i dont know any current triathletes who go 'im going to race more because of chrissie, shes so inspirational'...what am i missing here?

dont get me wrong shes a great personality and i love watching her race but im not sure what tangible impact shes had.

Seriously, not one? Dude, you need to meet more women triathletes. Plus learn how to use apostrophes.


avagoyamug

Jan 10, 13 15:49

Post #54 of 390 (4126 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [butch] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

If you were female you prolly would not see it that way.


realAlbertan

Jan 10, 13 15:58

Post #55 of 390 (4107 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [duncan] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Maybe but how many of those countries have a higher limit when the older party is an authority figure.
___________________________________________
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-BrandonMarshTX

Jan 10, 13 15:59

Post #56 of 390 (4105 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

You know, I draft up posts and delete them every time this subject comes up. I'll just give some comments as I was quoted in the article. I talked at length last summer with the author, and he picked out one sentence of our nearly hour long conversation. But, this post will be a summary of what the author of the InsideTri article and I talked on. There's an article from 2002 that summarizes the case against Brett pretty well as well as that against many other coaches. The accuser/victim, the husband of the victim, Brett, Brett's coaching methods at the time (same/similar as those presented in this latest article), and other similar stories of the time. This one is sourced out of the UK. And, I only write that as another point of reference. It's nothing new. And what also isn't anything new is that the same type of thing has become an epidemic in the US via USA Swimming. But, you guys don't rail on that as much here.

I draft these posts up and delete them because what good is it going to do? I'm not trying to change minds. I'm just providing my opinion, and opinions are like @$$holes everyone has one. So, there I said it. And, of people who frequent this message board, there are only a few to my knowledge who have any real business posting about Brett and his conduct towards his athletes. Yes, Amy and I are two of those athletes who must have questionable morals for choosing to go to TeamTBB and work with Brett. Suffice to say I'm willing to stack my morals up against anyone's, but go ahead and question them like some of you have Rapp's. I'm not going to justify our decision for being coached by Brett and TeamTBB. Suffice to say we knew the history. Me because I've been in this sport since 88 and remember one of the first interviews ever done with Sutton, which might have been here on this site as I remember a quote from it being that "Carlson got to Sutton"...before a lot of people on this board were involved in triathlon. And, I made sure that Amy knew the entire history as well. Actually, here's the article http://www.slowtwitch.com/...opinion/carlson.html Dan writes an op-ed that still rings true. But, Dan has a way of writing or at least op-eding that doesn't sit well with a lot of people on somewhat controversial subjects.

So, why am I writing this? I don't know. I know exactly where I stand on things related to Brett Sutton. The only regret, if you want to call it that, about racing with TeamTBB is that it was a risk for a 35 year old pro that resulted in mediocre results. His coaching style isn't for everyone. It has been described as throw a dozen eggs against the wall and maybe one will survive, but they aren't all physically broken. And there might be some truth to that 1 in 12 statement depending on who you deem to be a success on the team or from all of his athletes not just the superstars. But, really I don't think that is accurate about his coaching in the sense that most mean. Never at any point in time did Amy feel 'at risk' nor did I. Brett is a coach who cares about his athletes, but a lot of you aren't going to see that in this post and no amount of writing might convince you otherwise or at least change your opinions of the man. I'm not here to do that either. You are just going to see a little troll of a man who committed a crime, never really paid for it in your eyes, and should never ever be allowed to coach again or have anything to do with triathlon.

You won't read the fact that there is a lot of truth to what he says. You won't know that he tells aspiring coaches that what he did is the worst thing you could do as a coach and that he's still paying for it. And he tells them at the same time, it is one of the failings of many coaches...that temptation. You won't see that he's got some great ideas about the sport. You won't note that unlike a lot of those who are in the sport to get theirs and only theirs, that he's in the sport first because he loves it and is passionate about it. Yes, he wants to get his as well, but I've really seen a lot of efforts made for the improvement of the sport as well. Improvements that hit on a lot of the same topics that are hit upon in this forum for pros, age groupers, race directors, etc. Dan has questioned at times and written about whether or not various people or groups being a steward of the sport. Brett is that.

To Bjorn. I hear what you are saying, and some of it rings true. Brett is really the glue that holds TeamTBB together and a lot of athletes are there because of Brett. But, a lot of athletes are there because of the promise of sponsorship, equipment, and coaching all under one umbrella. That is what initially brought us to the team, the complete package of sponsorship and coaching with very little expense outside of getting to and being at the camps and some prize money %age. It might have changed a bit in 2012, but we don't know. It really does beat the pants off of trying to do it all yourself AND find a world class coach all wrapped into one.



Brandon Marsh - Blog | Website | @BrandonMarshTX | AshworthAwards | Cervelo | RokaWetsuits | 1stEndurance | CobbSaddles |


avagoyamug

Jan 10, 13 16:38

Post #57 of 390 (4050 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [-BrandonMarshTX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Great stuff Tex.


AlwaysCurious

Jan 10, 13 16:46

Post #58 of 390 (4038 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [-BrandonMarshTX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

You are of course free to be coached by Sutton for any reason you choose. And I won't question your morals for doing so, even if your decision was born mostly out of convenience (wanting the package deal of sponsorship and coaching with little front-end expense). He may be remorseful for his crime, and he may have paid a high price. He also may have some great ideas about triathlon that many could learn from.

That, however, does not change my opinion that the price he should pay for his crime is a lifetime ban from coaching. But because I have no influence over that, my choice is to simply consider him a persona non grata. I likewise feel that way about any athlete who chooses to be coached by him, and any companies that sponsor his team.

My choice may or may not be logical or fair, but that's what it is until someone changes my mind otherwise.


Rappstar

Jan 10, 13 17:08

Post #59 of 390 (4006 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [-BrandonMarshTX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

The letters Dan received in reply to that column are worth reading. Among them is a letter from Sutton himself that is definitely worth reading.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/.../opinion/sutton.html


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | Facebook - Rappstar Racing | @rappstar | WTC Ironman Pro Ambassador

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AlwaysCurious

Jan 10, 13 17:33

Post #60 of 390 (3969 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Rappstar wrote:
The letters Dan received in reply to that column are worth reading. Among them is a letter from Sutton himself that is definitely worth reading.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/.../opinion/sutton.html

Agree about the letters being very good. That column also reminded me that the crazy-flashing ST ads literally were the reason that I installed adblock on my computer (although I think it was some other flash-blocker that existed before adblock?).


Mad Jee

Jan 10, 13 18:02

Post #61 of 390 (3929 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Your posting that link led me to see this piece written by Dan for the first time. I really can't believe someone as smart as Dan would write that, although I guess I shouldn't be surprised given his continuing (until recently) head-in-the-sand attitude about Lance.

Dan's wrong, Sutton isn't our sport's Pete Rose, preying on a minor is a world apart from betting on baseball. And Pete Rose is banned for life from baseball, unfortunately we can't say the same about Sutton. He has every right to be a contributing member of society, but no right in my opinion to be in a position of authority over others such as a teacher or coach.

I've seen your friendship develop with Sutton just via your tweets over the past few months and I must say, it kind of sucks to see. You're free to do as you choose certainly, and I guess I'm free to be disappointed.






Portside Athletics Blog


Yknot

Jan 10, 13 19:05

Post #62 of 390 (3866 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [-BrandonMarshTX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
Suffice to say I'm willing to stack my morals up against anyone's, but go ahead and question them like some of you have Rapp's....

Forgive me for being short, it is flu season and our resources are stretched thin trying to figure out who has the sniffles and who has the flu. Maybe it isn't as tiring as a Brett Sutton workout, but when you get to tell a kid he can go home and play Xbox with his brother it makes the long days worth it. Reminds me why I chose to work in a children's hospital- kids are precious and innocent and it is all of our responsibilities to keep them safe.

That having been said, we can now stack morals. I spend my days, and lately nights, trying to keep kids healthy and safe. You work for and publicly defend a man who as a 27 year old male used his position of authority to sexually abuse a 14 year old girl. A crime he pleaded guilty to and never spent a day in prison for. He is, however, contrite about the whole ordeal. Are we done stacking?

Look, here is the truth. I don't think you or Jordan or Chrissie or any other member of team tbb are bad people for working with Brett. I think you all know that interactions with him can aid your careers and I think you are willing to buy the line he has managed to sell you about him molesting a 14 year old girl. None of you would have given him a chance if he wasn't as good a coach as he is. And none of you would work with him if he didn't convince you that he is remorseful and reformed. Thing is, I am fairly certain Sutton knows all this and knows his success depends on convincing folks to look past his actions.
You aren't bad people; you are people buying a load of crap from a piece of shit. I think the professional success that piece of shit can offer is what brought you in the door to the showroom and I think the convincing sales pitch is what sold you. You aren't bad people, you are just human.


TravisT

Jan 10, 13 19:11

Post #63 of 390 (3854 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Yknot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Yknot wrote:
-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
Suffice to say I'm willing to stack my morals up against anyone's, but go ahead and question them like some of you have Rapp's....


Forgive me for being short, it is flu season and our resources are stretched thin trying to figure out who has the sniffles and who has the flu. Maybe it isn't as tiring as a Brett Sutton workout, but when you get to tell a kid he can go home and play Xbox with his brother it makes the long days worth it. Reminds me why I chose to work in a children's hospital- kids are precious and innocent and it is all of our responsibilities to keep them safe.

That having been said, we can now stack morals. I spend my days, and lately nights, trying to keep kids healthy and safe. You work for and publicly defend a man who as a 27 year old male used his position of authority to sexually abuse a 14 year old girl. A crime he pleaded guilty to and never spent a day in prison for. He is, however, contrite about the whole ordeal. Are we done stacking?

Look, here is the truth. I don't think you or Jordan or Chrissie or any other member of team tbb are bad people for working with Brett. I think you all know that interactions with him can aid your careers and I think you are willing to buy the line he has managed to sell you about him molesting a 14 year old girl. None of you would have given him a chance if he wasn't as good a coach as he is. And none of you would work with him if he didn't convince you that he is remorseful and reformed. Thing is, I am fairly certain Sutton knows all this and knows his success depends on convincing folks to look past his actions.
You aren't bad people; you are people buying a load of crap from a piece of shit. I think the professional success that piece of shit can offer is what brought you in the door to the showroom and I think the convincing sales pitch is what sold you. You aren't bad people, you are just human.

These same people who will support Sutton and talk about how he is reformed and his actions don't matter because time has passed or the girl is now happily married (that one totally blew my mind) are the same ones who want to see LA destroyed for doping and being an asshole to people even if he were to come out and confess. This is not a defense of LA it's simply unbelievable where some people place their priorities.
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-BrandonMarshTX

Jan 10, 13 19:11

Post #64 of 390 (3853 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Yknot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Except I don't work for him or the team. That is the truth.



Brandon Marsh - Blog | Website | @BrandonMarshTX | AshworthAwards | Cervelo | RokaWetsuits | 1stEndurance | CobbSaddles |


Yknot

Jan 10, 13 19:21

Post #65 of 390 (3830 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [-BrandonMarshTX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
... Yes, Amy and I are two of those athletes who must have questionable morals for choosing to go to TeamTBB and work with Brett.....

Maybe I really am tired to have misread this?


-BrandonMarshTX

Jan 10, 13 19:22

Post #66 of 390 (3832 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Yknot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

2010/2011. Work with = be coached by during those two years.



Brandon Marsh - Blog | Website | @BrandonMarshTX | AshworthAwards | Cervelo | RokaWetsuits | 1stEndurance | CobbSaddles |


ironpsych

Jan 10, 13 19:35

Post #67 of 390 (3806 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Wow! So marrying a top triathlete makes you fine? WTF?

Most/all child rape victims marry. Yes it is RAPE. A 14 y.o. CANNOT have consensual sex with a 30 y.o. PERIOD.

Is it the top triathlete that makes her "fine" or the getting married?

14 year olds are protected by law for a reason. Their brains are not developed and cognitively they are unable to weigh long term consequences or adequately understand when people are being honest and when they are manipulating them. Which is why predators groom victims.

"Well, she signed that contract when she was 14 and lost all of her inheritance money but she married a top triathlete so she's fine".

Same thing. Although she lost much, much more than money.

Shame on you.


zoom

Jan 10, 13 19:35

Post #68 of 390 (3806 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [-BrandonMarshTX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

He works for you or did once upon a time ...ok

Would you hire Victor Conte of Balco to provide you legit and legal nutritional product that would help your performance, knowing the implications?

Would you hire Dr. Michele Ferrari if he were to provide you legit and legal medical services, knowing the implications?

I can't imagined what Brett Sutton is providing you all that is so great and above and beyond what other great coaches are providing that you would associate your names to him. I would imagine that image, perceived or otherwise, ranks pretty high up there for a professional athlete of any sport. Why would any triathlete associate with Sutton, knowing the baggage that is involved, eludes me.

If any major league baseball player, NFL, NBA, or pro runners were to hire Victor Conte and Michele Ferrari to help them, even in a legit manner, I would imagine their sponsors would be up in arms. I would also imagine them loosing some fans because of it.

I would tend to believe that if you were to hire Lance to be your cycling coach that you would also loose some fans even though he can probably make you a much better cyclist. I would think that some sponsors would shy from you also.

Wouldn't the smart thing to do is to shy away from a person with such controversy? If I were an Olympic podium caliber triathlete, I wouldn't touch Brett with a 10 foot pole even if it guaranteed me a podium spot. Everyone out there would look at my medal with a raised eyebrow even if I did nothing illegal or unethical.

============================================
My marathon PR is "under three, high twos. I had a two hour and fifty-something."


ironpsych

Jan 10, 13 20:49

Post #69 of 390 (3747 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [-BrandonMarshTX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Ouch! Brandon... enjoyed your Slowtwitch showcase article. And have been a fan. But DUDE!!!!

Bad PR.

As an athlete that needs fans/supporters (i.e. showing to your sponsors that you can influence people's buying decisions) posting on a thread tacitly supporting a convicted child rapist... Not a good idea.

Shit.

Not only did you compromise yourself but Amy as well.

Advice for the future. DO NOT EVER POST ON CONTROVERSIAL TOPICS! NO MATTER WHAT!

Now you are the dude associated with Brett Sutton. If you had a PR person they would be shitting in their pants.

Crap! Now when I see yours or Amy's results... first thought... they like the child rapist.

Head in hand. Shaking head. Wondering how I an reconcile this.


avagoyamug

Jan 10, 13 20:50

Post #70 of 390 (3743 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ironpsych] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

So much black and white viewing in this issue. It was a bad thing he did, he has paid for it and continues to pay and pay and suffer. Some on the typical Slowtwich lynch mob sit on their high horse with burning rods ready to burn him at the stake. Save me the shame on you histrionics please. I was just pointing out that the girl's life was not ruined and that is was consensual, and that he took a plea bargain to avoided sullying her name by making these statements himself in court. I understand there was a massive abuse of power and trust there and it was a terrible thing to do, but for me it's not enough to write a man off for life. Understand that for those ponitficating they have a right to their view too.
These are the details that those who have work with him and defend him are aware of and although I can't speak on their behalf I'd guess probably the reason they decided to work with him. He doesn't coach anyone under the age of 18 and seems to be only be a force for good in our sport and society these days.


realAlbertan

Jan 10, 13 21:23

Post #71 of 390 (3723 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

He should pay every day until he dies.


Not a day should pass where he does not think of what he did and the reality that he breached the trust of society.
___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M - 400 & 1500 m Freestyle/200 m Butterfly

(This post was edited by realAlbertan on Jan 10, 13 21:33)


Rappstar

Jan 10, 13 21:23

Post #72 of 390 (3722 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Yknot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Yknot wrote:
-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
Suffice to say I'm willing to stack my morals up against anyone's, but go ahead and question them like some of you have Rapp's....

Forgive me for being short, it is flu season and our resources are stretched thin trying to figure out who has the sniffles and who has the flu. Maybe it isn't as tiring as a Brett Sutton workout, but when you get to tell a kid he can go home and play Xbox with his brother it makes the long days worth it. Reminds me why I chose to work in a children's hospital- kids are precious and innocent and it is all of our responsibilities to keep them safe.

That having been said, we can now stack morals. I spend my days, and lately nights, trying to keep kids healthy and safe. You work for and publicly defend a man who as a 27 year old male used his position of authority to sexually abuse a 14 year old girl. A crime he pleaded guilty to and never spent a day in prison for. He is, however, contrite about the whole ordeal. Are we done stacking?

Look, here is the truth. I don't think you or Jordan or Chrissie or any other member of team tbb are bad people for working with Brett. I think you all know that interactions with him can aid your careers and I think you are willing to buy the line he has managed to sell you about him molesting a 14 year old girl. None of you would have given him a chance if he wasn't as good a coach as he is. And none of you would work with him if he didn't convince you that he is remorseful and reformed. Thing is, I am fairly certain Sutton knows all this and knows his success depends on convincing folks to look past his actions.
You aren't bad people; you are people buying a load of crap from a piece of shit. I think the professional success that piece of shit can offer is what brought you in the door to the showroom and I think the convincing sales pitch is what sold you. You aren't bad people, you are just human.

For the record, I am not now and never have been a part of Team TBB. Brett is not now and never has been my coach. I do not "work with" Brett in any capacity. I do not seek his advice, input, or anything else in any capacity that would further my career. What knowledge I have gleaned from him, I have gleaned from what he writes on twitter, interviews he does, etc. There is no weighing of "well, on the one hand, Brett abused a minor, but on the other hand, he could help me win a lot of races." I have none of that. I do not ask Brett for advice. I have a coach - Michael Krueger. I trust him, and I do not need to second guess what he's doing with Brett. Just so we are clear.

I haven't been brought into any showroom. I haven't bought a load of crap. But you are right that I am human. And in being human I thought about the mistakes that I've made in my life. And some of them have been pretty massive. I've thought about the fact that I don't know this man at all outside of two things - 1) he committed a heinous crime that he owned up to and 2) he seems to care a great deal about making right for a very, very serious wrong that he committed. So I decided that it was not my place to judge him. And I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt.

After Ironman Texas, Brett wrote a short but complimentary tweet about me. So I asked Brandon for Brett's email. I wrote to Brett and said, paraphrasing slightly for brevity, "I saw what you wrote on twitter. Thank you. But you should know that I've said some pretty harsh and condemning things about you in very public forums. I feel badly about having done that, because I realized I don't actually know you or really know what happened other than - at best - some 3rd hand accounts. I assumed you were a scumbag because you did something awful. But people change. And based off what I know about you from people whose opinion I value - like Brandon - you don't actually seem like a scumbag. Anyway..."

I didn't really write it expecting much of a reply. I just wrote it because I did not feel good about having sat in judgement - like plenty of folks on this thread have done and are doing - of someone I don't really know. That's not the person I want to be. That's it. That's why I wrote to Brett. And when he wrote back, he wrote something very similar to that letter to Dan. He thanked me, but said he lives with what he's done every day. And nothing can change that. But he's doing his best to try and make up for it. I take him at his word. If you don't that's fine. But ours is not a relationship of personal gain. I don't profit from Brett. And he doesn't profit from me.

I wrote to him most recently - I write about once a month or so - because I enjoyed his blog about kids' sports. And because I didn't know he was a father - he has two sets of kids from two marriages - 25, 22, 21 from #1 and 9 & 7 from #2. We talked a bit about running shoes. And then he asked me to share the post about the kids. He told me that he doesn't really care about people reading his coaching stuff, but that he cared a lot about the way we are affecting our kids through sport, and that he'd appreciate my sharing that post. Now, maybe that's a load of crap. And maybe I bought it. I'll accept that. I just don't want to be that cynical. I don't think the world is that dark. And I hope I never do...

To the poster who said Brett is not Pete Rose, I think you misunderstand the analogy. What Pete did - fundamentally - was to violate trust. That's the same thing that Brett did. Pete violated his stewardship of the game. Brett also violated his stewardship. Now, this is certainly not to equate statutory rape with betting on baseball. It's to analogize that their crimes directly impacted their role as stewards. E.g., if Brett had committed the same crime with a girl who Brett was not coaching, Dan would not have drawn that analogy. It is the violation of trust by a steward that led Dan to make that analogy. If you focus only on the severity of the crimes, you miss that. And I think it's important. I respect that other people may not.

What troubles me about this thread, more than anything, is that everyone assumes that people are acting solely out of self-interest. Have we really all become Homo economicus or some sort of Ayn Rand-ian traders who care only "what's in it for me?" I pray - and I'm not any sort of religious - that we haven't...


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | Facebook - Rappstar Racing | @rappstar | WTC Ironman Pro Ambassador

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BLACKSHEEP

Jan 10, 13 21:33

Post #73 of 390 (3711 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [AlwaysCurious] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Should he be barred from coaching or barred from coaching athletes below a certain age?
He still has to earn a living. He still has a contribution to make.

Is there never any redemption, released murderers live among us.


realAlbertan

Jan 10, 13 21:38

Post #74 of 390 (3707 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [BLACKSHEEP] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

He is banned from coaching in Australia. Cecil Russell is also banned from coaching as is Graham James. Sutto could have walked away and took a job as a labourer.
___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M - 400 & 1500 m Freestyle/200 m Butterfly


ironpsych

Jan 10, 13 21:41

Post #75 of 390 (3699 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

 
"Save me the shame on you histrionics please. I was just pointing out that the girl's life was not ruined and that is was consensual"

Sure I get it. Guy in his 20's screws up and repents and tries to make amends. I get it. I've done it. Not the child rape thing but we all make mistakes.

I can see that a lifetime of good deeds could/should wash away a "youthful" (although 27 is not really "youthful", I would say "willful") indiscretion.

If I'm 27 and some 14 y.o. is rubbing up on me... I have to make a decision. (although I am VERY doubtful that that is the way it worked out).

But you SHOULD be ashamed of yourself by trying to minimize the impact that that sort of inappropriate relationship has on a young girl/boy. Not only it's immediate aftermath but for years (a lifetime) later. And to reiterate... a 14 y.o. girl CANNOT have consensual sex with an almost 30 y.o. male. Cannot happen. Period. There are no Lolitas. There are only predators.

Similar to the pediatrician who posted earlier I too have intimate knowledge of how this type of situation effects young people.

Hint: My sign on name... wait for it.... wait for it... ding, ding. The "psych" stands for something.

So, should a man be able to rehab his image after a fall from grace. Yes. But should his actions lose context over time. No. A 27 y.o. man had sex with a 14 y.o. girl. There is not a single Western society that thinks that that is O.K. The context for Sutton is that we do not know that it has happened again. Which is a good sign. Although, doesn't he run his camps in Southeast Asia? That might not be a good sign.

And should pro triathletes who value sponsorship dollars be supporting controversial figures with a background like Sutton's. No. Can they be coached by them. Yes. But quietly.

And I am all for forgiveness. Check out my posts on the LA thread. But doping vs. child rape is much, much different. Not everybody was raping children in those days.

and it was not "CONSENSUAL".

Any ladies want to chime in?


DieAnotherDay

Jan 10, 13 23:04

Post #76 of 390 (5172 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [asianzone] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Considering TBB is a big ponzi scheme (ask any of their suppliers) it's interesting to see how well the athletes are paid...


ZingUK

Jan 11, 13 0:44

Post #77 of 390 (5115 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [AlwaysCurious] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

AlwaysCurious wrote:
You are of course free to be coached by Sutton for any reason you choose. And I won't question your morals for doing so, even if your decision was born mostly out of convenience (wanting the package deal of sponsorship and coaching with little front-end expense). He may be remorseful for his crime, and he may have paid a high price. He also may have some great ideas about triathlon that many could learn from.

That, however, does not change my opinion that the price he should pay for his crime is a lifetime ban from coaching. But because I have no influence over that, my choice is to simply consider him a persona non grata. I likewise feel that way about any athlete who chooses to be coached by him, and any companies that sponsor his team.

My choice may or may not be logical or fair, but that's what it is until someone changes my mind otherwise.

I would understand this point if you added the word "minors" and have no qualms with it but for coaching adults I simply don't see why that should be a problem. As reasoned adults we know his past and can choose to either work with him or not and there is no risk associated with it. There are lots of things about lots of people I don't like, some of them I choose as friends\acquaitances others I don't and the same principle applies here


Mad Jee

Jan 11, 13 2:55

Post #78 of 390 (5073 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

"For the record, I am not now and never have been a part of Team TBB. Brett is not now and never has been my coach. I do not "work with" Brett in any capacity...

And then he asked me to share the post about the kids. He told me that he doesn't really care about people reading his coaching stuff, but that he cared a lot about the way we are affecting our kids through sport, and that he'd appreciate my sharing that post."

You may not "work with" him, but he's working with you. Using your credibility to increase his own. Here's the cynical view, he's a manipulator and he knows you are a nice guy with a huge audience. Did you ever think he might be using you for his own gain even if you aren't using him for yours?

To the poster who said Brett is not Pete Rose, I think you misunderstand the analogy. What Pete did - fundamentally - was to violate trust. That's the same thing that Brett did.

That was me, and no Jordan, you're absolutely wrong. I have tremendous respect for you, but I so wish you'd stop saying stuff like this. All violations of trust aren't the same, violating the trust of a sport versus sexually abusing a minor don't even fall on the same spectrum of "trust violations".

Now, this is certainly not to equate statutory rape with betting on baseball.

That's what Dan, and now you are doing.

It's to analogize that their crimes directly impacted their role as stewards.

You might think you're doing that, but you're actually doing the above.

If you focus only on the severity of the crimes, you miss that.

What else to focus on?


Portside Athletics Blog


meuf

Jan 11, 13 4:10

Post #79 of 390 (5039 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ironpsych] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

ironpsych wrote:


and it was not "CONSENSUAL".

Any ladies want to chime in?

I am a woman, and a physician. And a teacher seduced me in high school. The director of a play I had a lead role in. As a 15 year old girl I was flattered and confused. It has DEFINITELY colored my relationships over the years. But of course avagoyamug would say I am fine because I went on to marry and have children and a successful career.

My experience as a Family Medicine Physician and as a woman is this haunts you for LIFE. Not only did Sutto have sex with a minor, he was her COACH he was in a position of trust! As a society we frown on that even in adults.

14 year old girls LOOK older - appear seductive. Part of what is going on is they are testing out their new sexuality. The job of the adults entrusted in the care of these young people is to keep firm boundaries.

Sutto violated that period.

I will not forgive his actions nor forget regardless of what contributions he gives as a coach to the sport of triathlon. He can state how it haunts him - it should.

Unlike peeing in the pool this is a moral lapse and Sutto is damaged morally. Those who choose to brush that aside can justify it any way they want. The facts remain.


caf0

Jan 11, 13 4:50

Post #80 of 390 (4998 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ironpsych] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I am a mother.
It greatly disturbs me that Coach Sutton, convicted child molester, claims the minor athlete trusted to his care "consented".
Her parents trusted him sufficiently to make him a "godfather" of her sibling.

I find I cannot cheer for athletes on TBB.
I don't want Sutton to get any more spotlight as a coach.
Had I known about his past and Cervelo's sponsorship at the time, I would never have purchased my P3.

Since you asked.


Mad Jee

Jan 11, 13 5:10

Post #81 of 390 (4961 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [caf0] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Had I known about his past and Cervelo's sponsorship at the time, I would never have purchased my P3.

I stopped following Jonathan Caron's blog after he joined Team TBB a few years ago and always kind of cringe when I see those black/white/pink uniforms crossing the finish line.

This forum skewered Matty Reed for the fact that he planned to get some cycling training advice from Tyler Hamilton, to the point that Reed then abandoned that plan. The sport's tolerance for this guy is shocking.


Portside Athletics Blog


Bstulberg

Jan 11, 13 5:18

Post #82 of 390 (4947 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [bcagle25] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

There has been plenty of comment on other elements of Sutton/Article, but from a sheer high performance standpoint, it is so interesting to me to see the difference in his style versus that of some other "coaches of champions," which just goes to show that like most debates on ST, the answer is often grey, and comes down to a matter of what works for a certain type of athlete. Some athletes need to give total control (e.g., by that I mean literally they cannot know their own power) to a coach, and others benefit from a more mutual/communicative understanding of their physiology and training...again, I think this has a lot more to do with the athlete than the coach.

In terms of giving back to the community, personally, I don't see Sutton writing a few posts here and there that can be quite hard to follow (I get English may not be his first language and can appreciate that, but I'm sure someone on his team could help him edit) and otherwise being very secretive/short is too heroic, especially when there are other "coaches of champions" out there like Matt Dixon that write regularly, provide tons of great educational material through websites, regular interviews, etc., etc.
*********************************************
Brad Stulberg, Public Health Advocate & Triathlete
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TriGirrrrl

Jan 11, 13 5:31

Post #83 of 390 (4920 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [caf0] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

caf0 wrote:
I am a mother.
It greatly disturbs me that Coach Sutton, convicted child molester, claims the minor athlete trusted to his care "consented".
Her parents trusted him sufficiently to make him a "godfather" of her sibling.

I find I cannot cheer for athletes on TBB.
I don't want Sutton to get any more spotlight as a coach.
Had I known about his past and Cervelo's sponsorship at the time, I would never have purchased my P3.

Since you asked.

well said


devashish_paul

Jan 11, 13 5:33

Post #84 of 390 (4914 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [caf0] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

General reply to this thread. I think many good points have been discussed. As a coach in youth sport for 12 years, and currently coaching teens in both clubs and high schools, I don't want to see anyone with a past like Sutton remotely close to the coaching ranks. Coaches are not just people who impart technical skills in a sport. We have to be role models for the kids, give them skills for life, guide them towards what is right and what is not right, teach them about goal setting, execution, winning, losing and fair play. Parents entrust coaches to impart all of this to their kids. It takes a village to raise a child, and there are some things parents cannot do, so they hand their kids off to sports coaches, piano teachers, academic teachers and so on, to make their kids better humans and prepare them for adult life. Sutton failed all of us with his actions.

To Ironpsych, it might be unfair to just pick on Brandon here as he is one of many athletes and is kind enough to actually come here to ST and post on many topics. Many pro athletes much more prominent than him have entrusted their development as adult professionals to Sutton. We can name Caroline Steffen and Chrissie Wellington among that top tier. Going back a decade Siri Lindley and Loretta Harrop (if I recall correctly). Do all criminals in society deserve a second chance to reform themselves? I think the answer is yes.

Does Sutton deserve to be still coaching after violating that most fundamental foundation in his role as a coach. I lean towards no and so does the Australian government. But enough people have leaned towards yes, and there have been no further incidents that anyone is publicly aware of, that maybe (just maybe) he is a reformed man, with the wisdom that comes with age. I don't know the answer to that, but before we throw all Team TBB athletes under the bus, let's think it through. I'm glad to throw Sutton under the bus 1000 times for what he did many years ago as there is no excuse for what he did with his athlete. His current athletes, they know more about him than you or I.

They are adults and need to make their own decisions and I am sure they all weigh the upside of what they can achieve with him with the moral dilemma of association with his past. Bjorn said things very well above. I can see how people might train under him, but for me personally, it just does not sit well. There are many areas in triathlon that Sutton could earn a living in outside of coaching, and I'd have preferred to see that path as everyone should be able to earn a living, once they are reformed past their conviction and served their penalties and re integrated into society.

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(This post was edited by devashish_paul on Jan 11, 13 5:50)


Goosedog

Jan 11, 13 5:51

Post #85 of 390 (4886 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [TravisT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

TravisT wrote:
These same people who will support Sutton and talk about how he is reformed and his actions don't matter because time has passed or the girl is now happily married (that one totally blew my mind) are the same ones who want to see LA destroyed for doping and being an asshole to people even if he were to come out and confess. This is not a defense of LA it's simply unbelievable where some people place their priorities.

Yep.


slimfast

Jan 11, 13 6:01

Post #86 of 390 (4864 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [zoom] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Quote:
Would you hire Victor Conte of Balco to provide you legit and legal nutritional product that would help your performance, knowing the implications?

Would you hire Dr. Michele Ferrari if he were to provide you legit and legal medical services, knowing the implications?



Well said. I just don't get why he gets any semblance of a "pass".

I can't help but view anything he touches without a bit of skepticism.


(This post was edited by slimfast on Jan 11, 13 6:05)


Power13

Jan 11, 13 6:06

Post #87 of 390 (4847 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Goosedog] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Goosedog wrote:
TravisT wrote:
These same people who will support Sutton and talk about how he is reformed and his actions don't matter because time has passed or the girl is now happily married (that one totally blew my mind) are the same ones who want to see LA destroyed for doping and being an asshole to people even if he were to come out and confess. This is not a defense of LA it's simply unbelievable where some people place their priorities.

Yep.

No.

Some of us are actually capable of having the position that Sutton committed a serious crime and should suffer those consequences, and that LA doped, lied and coerced others, and that he, too, should suffer those consequences.

I do my best to avoid Sutton and LA discussions now because there is little to gain from them. Nobody is going to change their positions....it is what it is.

It is very difficult for to find respect for those who are willing to cast aside Sutton's past. He may very well be truly repentant and I hope that he is.....but some crimes are of such a heinous nature that the perpetrator of those crimes deserves little compassion.

Sutton is free to try and make a living from coaching....just as I am free to ignore his teachings / advice. If he told me he could make me a Kona contender within a year, I still wouldn't heed his teachings.

YMMV.
__________________________________________________
“I want to tell the world of cycling to please join me in telling Pat McQuaid to f##k off and resign." - Greg Lemond


Goosedog

Jan 11, 13 6:10

Post #88 of 390 (4833 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Power13] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Power13 wrote:
Goosedog wrote:
TravisT wrote:

These same people who will support Sutton and talk about how he is reformed and his actions don't matter because time has passed or the girl is now happily married (that one totally blew my mind) are the same ones who want to see LA destroyed for doping and being an asshole to people even if he were to come out and confess. This is not a defense of LA it's simply unbelievable where some people place their priorities.


Yep.


No.

Where is the disagreement, in light of what you wrote after this?


pick6

Jan 11, 13 6:20

Post #89 of 390 (4817 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Rappstar wrote:
SlayerHatebreed wrote:
"What could have been with Chrissie"


What the heck are you talking about... she accomplished everything and in many eyes, including my own, was the best ever. She was never beaten. What else more where you expecting? How many titles is enough?

Of course we lost something special when she retired.



For a guy who hammers other people about making assumptions, you are making a whole bunch yourself right there about my post. Why do you assume that I'm talking about titles? By not racing, her influence on the sport is diminished. I'm sure there are some who will disagree with that, but when she retired, she sacrificed a lot of her platform. I think Chrissie could have changed the sport in much, much more meaningful ways than just raising the bar on competition. She still might. But I think it will be harder to do that if she is not racing. Now, I don't think she needed to do that, by any means. She gave the sport and all of us a lot. But I think there was really no limit to what she could have done within the sport as a leader. And THAT is what I mean when I say "what could have been." And that's also what I think Brett is referring to.


I appreciate as someone I've always found to be a person who considers the potential consequences of their actions, that you've still chosen to make public at least an email friendship with Sutton. He's a talented coach to be sure, and if we are to believe his transgression was a 1 time thing, then it's something to consider. A person can be reformed in my mind. With all the talk of doping and former dopers around here, there are some who I honestly believe even if told there was no chance of ever being caught, that some of them would never cross that line again. It doesn't vindicate him from the crime, but it's possible to see how a person can make a single mistake in their life and not have it become more than that. is the guy truly a sexual predator or merely someone who let his life get out of control? Hard to say. No way of knowing whats in a guys mind, but to me it's the action that makes the difference. I don't know that much about his crime, other than what has been reported here, but it's challenging to be sympathetic, but that as far as we know he has never re-offended, I think that's a positive sign.

As for Chrissie, sure, she'd probably have a bigger platform (as more people come to the sport every day), but the racing isn't in her heart now, I applaud she has stepped away. She certainly has stayed active, and her twitter following doesn't seem to be suffering for it. I don't know how effective her fundraising is, because she isn't making a big production of it. She just seems to be going out and doing it. the causes she's working for; health, women in sport, etc. I actually think she's doing things the right way, making a difference not being self congratulatory; being the same as a person as she was as a racer.


AlwaysCurious

Jan 11, 13 6:22

Post #90 of 390 (4812 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Brett most certainly does profit from you. He profits from you coming on Slowtwitch and using your credibility to support him.

And if I interpret your post correctly, you changed from thinking he was a scumbag to a reformed man simply because he tweeted nice about you and sends you some emails?

The whole point about being a "nation of laws, not men," is that we don't need to evaluate the character of someone to determine if they've committed a crime. In theory, good guys who are successful in their field shouldn't get less harsh treatment than non-productive bums.

He raped a teen girl. By definition, that makes him a scumbag. A forever scumbag? In my eyes, yes (no matter how contrite he now is). Apparently not in yours. But I'm surprised that you'll use his contribution to the sport as one of the criteria for deciding if he's reformed. What on earth can you possibly know about his heart, intentions and thinking? That he knows how to sweet talk on email is about all.

And why is he so important to the sport that you're on here promoting him?


avagoyamug

Jan 11, 13 6:44

Post #91 of 390 (4759 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [AlwaysCurious] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

FWIW, I think Lance is a sociopath, is borderline evil, and hope he never gets to compete or have anything to do with endurance sport again. Ive been shouting his evilness and phonyness from the roof tops for years.

But am a big fan of Sutton and think he knows more about triahtlon than any poster on this forum and his current influence on triathlon and in the world is only for the good.

So it's not the same people defending both, its just people can see different issues differently.


(This post was edited by avagoyamug on Jan 11, 13 6:45)


TravisT

Jan 11, 13 7:00

Post #92 of 390 (4729 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Reading your drivel makes me sick. Although finding out you feel LA actions are worse then Sutton's merely confirms the level of your degeneration. Since you obviously know jack shit about the realities of Sutton's actions the reason he took a plea was not to protect the victim. The reason more of these cases don't go to trial is the additional trauma the victim's would have to go through appearing on the stand and so many of them are plead down leaving the molester with a paltry penalty compared to the crime that helps idiots like you to justify their inane support.
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Power13

Jan 11, 13 7:51

Post #93 of 390 (4660 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Goosedog] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Goosedog wrote:
Power13 wrote:
Goosedog wrote:
TravisT wrote:

These same people who will support Sutton and talk about how he is reformed and his actions don't matter because time has passed or the girl is now happily married (that one totally blew my mind) are the same ones who want to see LA destroyed for doping and being an asshole to people even if he were to come out and confess. This is not a defense of LA it's simply unbelievable where some people place their priorities.


Yep.


No.


Where is the disagreement, in light of what you wrote after this?

Just clarifying that people can be consistent in criticizing both parties. The implication form the above post is that people who support one automatically damn the other. Such an assertion is silly.....there are people who support Sutton AND Lance, people who damn Sutton and support Lance and people who support neither.
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Goosedog

Jan 11, 13 7:53

Post #94 of 390 (4655 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Power13] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Power13 wrote:
Just clarifying that people can be consistent in criticizing both parties. The implication form the above post is that people who support one automatically damn the other.

I think the quote was expressing confusion that some would villify LA, but seem to go out of their way to support/forgive Sutton.


TravisT

Jan 11, 13 8:14

Post #95 of 390 (4614 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Rappstar wrote:
Yknot wrote:
-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
Suffice to say I'm willing to stack my morals up against anyone's, but go ahead and question them like some of you have Rapp's....


Forgive me for being short, it is flu season and our resources are stretched thin trying to figure out who has the sniffles and who has the flu. Maybe it isn't as tiring as a Brett Sutton workout, but when you get to tell a kid he can go home and play Xbox with his brother it makes the long days worth it. Reminds me why I chose to work in a children's hospital- kids are precious and innocent and it is all of our responsibilities to keep them safe.

That having been said, we can now stack morals. I spend my days, and lately nights, trying to keep kids healthy and safe. You work for and publicly defend a man who as a 27 year old male used his position of authority to sexually abuse a 14 year old girl. A crime he pleaded guilty to and never spent a day in prison for. He is, however, contrite about the whole ordeal. Are we done stacking?

Look, here is the truth. I don't think you or Jordan or Chrissie or any other member of team tbb are bad people for working with Brett. I think you all know that interactions with him can aid your careers and I think you are willing to buy the line he has managed to sell you about him molesting a 14 year old girl. None of you would have given him a chance if he wasn't as good a coach as he is. And none of you would work with him if he didn't convince you that he is remorseful and reformed. Thing is, I am fairly certain Sutton knows all this and knows his success depends on convincing folks to look past his actions.
You aren't bad people; you are people buying a load of crap from a piece of shit. I think the professional success that piece of shit can offer is what brought you in the door to the showroom and I think the convincing sales pitch is what sold you. You aren't bad people, you are just human.


For the record, I am not now and never have been a part of Team TBB. Brett is not now and never has been my coach. I do not "work with" Brett in any capacity. I do not seek his advice, input, or anything else in any capacity that would further my career. What knowledge I have gleaned from him, I have gleaned from what he writes on twitter, interviews he does, etc. There is no weighing of "well, on the one hand, Brett abused a minor, but on the other hand, he could help me win a lot of races." I have none of that. I do not ask Brett for advice. I have a coach - Michael Krueger. I trust him, and I do not need to second guess what he's doing with Brett. Just so we are clear.

I haven't been brought into any showroom. I haven't bought a load of crap. But you are right that I am human. And in being human I thought about the mistakes that I've made in my life. And some of them have been pretty massive. I've thought about the fact that I don't know this man at all outside of two things - 1) he committed a heinous crime that he owned up to and 2) he seems to care a great deal about making right for a very, very serious wrong that he committed. So I decided that it was not my place to judge him. And I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt.

After Ironman Texas, Brett wrote a short but complimentary tweet about me. So I asked Brandon for Brett's email. I wrote to Brett and said, paraphrasing slightly for brevity, "I saw what you wrote on twitter. Thank you. But you should know that I've said some pretty harsh and condemning things about you in very public forums. I feel badly about having done that, because I realized I don't actually know you or really know what happened other than - at best - some 3rd hand accounts. I assumed you were a scumbag because you did something awful. But people change. And based off what I know about you from people whose opinion I value - like Brandon - you don't actually seem like a scumbag. Anyway..."

I didn't really write it expecting much of a reply. I just wrote it because I did not feel good about having sat in judgement - like plenty of folks on this thread have done and are doing - of someone I don't really know. That's not the person I want to be. That's it. That's why I wrote to Brett. And when he wrote back, he wrote something very similar to that letter to Dan. He thanked me, but said he lives with what he's done every day. And nothing can change that. But he's doing his best to try and make up for it. I take him at his word. If you don't that's fine. But ours is not a relationship of personal gain. I don't profit from Brett. And he doesn't profit from me.

I wrote to him most recently - I write about once a month or so - because I enjoyed his blog about kids' sports. And because I didn't know he was a father - he has two sets of kids from two marriages - 25, 22, 21 from #1 and 9 & 7 from #2. We talked a bit about running shoes. And then he asked me to share the post about the kids. He told me that he doesn't really care about people reading his coaching stuff, but that he cared a lot about the way we are affecting our kids through sport, and that he'd appreciate my sharing that post. Now, maybe that's a load of crap. And maybe I bought it. I'll accept that. I just don't want to be that cynical. I don't think the world is that dark. And I hope I never do...

To the poster who said Brett is not Pete Rose, I think you misunderstand the analogy. What Pete did - fundamentally - was to violate trust. That's the same thing that Brett did. Pete violated his stewardship of the game. Brett also violated his stewardship. Now, this is certainly not to equate statutory rape with betting on baseball. It's to analogize that their crimes directly impacted their role as stewards. E.g., if Brett had committed the same crime with a girl who Brett was not coaching, Dan would not have drawn that analogy. It is the violation of trust by a steward that led Dan to make that analogy. If you focus only on the severity of the crimes, you miss that. And I think it's important. I respect that other people may not.

What troubles me about this thread, more than anything, is that everyone assumes that people are acting solely out of self-interest. Have we really all become Homo economicus or some sort of Ayn Rand-ian traders who care only "what's in it for me?" I pray - and I'm not any sort of religious - that we haven't...


Jordan your support/friendship of Sutton is a bit of a catch-22. On one hand your accessibility on here and explanations of your thought process is something we all appreciate. Conversely you have lost a LOT of credibility with me and many others with this. For someone as intelligent as you it's surprising that all it took to turn you around on him was a supportive tweet and an email. You think he's not going to come off as credible to you? It's something straight out of the LA PR playbook. It's even more disturbing that you would actively share and promote anything he put out related to kids, sports and coaching. That just dropped you even lower. Although what he says may make sense there are plenty of other credible sources with the same message who didn't do what he did.
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(This post was edited by TravisT on Jan 11, 13 8:14)


zoom

Jan 11, 13 8:31

Post #96 of 390 (4579 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [TravisT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I cringed and did a double take when I read what Rapp wrote concerning what you stated (in bold).

Just imagined the feedback from the football if an NFL player came out and said he and Sandusky had been corresponding via emails. Through those emails, said NFL player is now convinced that Sandusky has recognized the errors of his ways by trying to make amends by trying to promote pee-wee league football. Most reasonable people would cringe, just like most people would cringe at the Rapp's statments that you highlighted.

Quote:

Jordan your support/friendship of Sutton is a bit of a catch-22. On one hand your accessibility on here and explanations of your thought process is something we all appreciate. Conversely you have lost a LOT of credibility with me and many others with this. For someone as intelligent as you it's surprising that all it took to turn you around on him was a supportive tweet and an email. You think he's not going to come off as credible to you? It's something straight out of the LA PR playbook. It's even more disturbing that you would actively share and promote anything he put out related to kids, sports and coaching. That just dropped you even lower. Although what he says may make sense there are plenty of other credible sources with the same message who didn't do what he did.

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(This post was edited by zoom on Jan 11, 13 8:33)


pick6

Jan 11, 13 8:55

Post #97 of 390 (4527 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Maui5150] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Maui5150 wrote:

Gotta disagree here. You may argue consensuality of a 16/17 year old and I might buy that based upon maturity, life experience, but I would still err on it being immoral, less immoral if the ages are close, like a 18 year old with a 16 year old. Still wrong. Something I have and lived by being off limits.

Just for definition sake: boyfriend and girlfriend of 15 and 13 2 years 4 months about. When he turns 18 and she's got 4 months until 16, is that immoral? When she's 16 or 17 is that still wrong? is it only wrong if they have sex? What if the girl turns 18 first and the boy is just shy of 16. Please tell me the moral guidelines there.


Rappstar

Jan 11, 13 9:00

Post #98 of 390 (4519 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [AlwaysCurious] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

AlwaysCurious wrote:
<snip>What on earth can you possibly know about his heart, intentions and thinking?</snip>

Nothing. And that's why I chose to change my opinion in advance of anything else. I decided to stop thinking the worst and to take a more optimistic view. I changed my opinion before I ever wrote to Brett. Maybe I'm a sucker. I can live with that.

I should be dead. But I'm not because some random stranger decided to do something remarkable. Of course, some other random stranger decided to do something terrible. But I'd rather assume the best in people, because I just find that to be the worldview I want to pass on to my son.

Quote:
<snip>But I'm surprised that you'll use his contribution to the sport as one of the criteria for deciding if he's reformed.<snip>

What else should I use?

Quote:
<snip>And why is he so important to the sport that you're on here promoting him?</snip>

Because he has a lot of wisdom to share. And because I think if there's one thing that the sporting world, triathlon in particular but sports in general, is short on, it's real wisdom.

Quote:
<snip>He raped a teen girl. By definition, that makes him a scumbag. A forever scumbag? In my eyes, yes (no matter how contrite he now is). Apparently not in yours.<snip>

For the record, I think that he's a forever scumbag too. And I think that he believes he's a forever scumbag too. I just don't think that's ALL he is.

It's human nature to assume that people are basically all X, whatever X is. It's in our basic psychology. We have a very hard time reconciling that good people do bad things and vice versa. You see this in particular with Lance. People believe he didn't dope because of his charity work. And on the flipside, people believe his charity work is a sham because of his massive crimes with regards to doping. I believe that his charity work is genuine and that he genuinely cares about cancer patients. The mission Livestrong makes sense when you think about why Lance almost died - it was not that his cancer was rare or untreatable; it was that he didn't get the right advice early enough, which is what - in part - Livestrong aims to do. People like to quote the 2007 article on Charity Watch that says it cost Livestrong "as much as 45 cents to raise $1." And they ignore the fact that as of 2011 - using 2010 returns - over the history of the charity, over $0.80 of every $1 has gone directly to programs/outreach/etc. I believe that Livestrong is legitimate for the exact same reason that I believe Lance was a fraud and a cheat as an athlete - it's the consensus based on evidence. The tax returns, the Livestrong employees (you don't think one Livestrong employee would roll on Lance if it was a fraud?), etc. Just like it's impossible to say that Lance did not commit atrocious acts of intimidation, fraud, malice, etc as an athlete with all of the evidence surrounding that, I think it's equally impossible to say that Livestrong does not do good work. Now, that's a very hard thing to reconcile in our brains. The easiest way to do it is to assume that the charity work is just a facade. But I don't believe that. I think it's genuine. I think he genuinely cares about the work that Livestrong does in a (mostly) altruistic way. And I also think he's a pathological liar, a fraud, a cheat, and worse. He forced athletes to put their lives at risk by doping; he ruined careers and reputations willfully and vindictively. I think he operates at more polar extremes than the typical person, but I think everyone has good and bad in them. I think it's rare that someone can be so skewed, but I don't believe it's impossible. I would certainly like to see Lance held accountable for his crimes to a much greater degree than he has been. He RUINED a lot of lives. But he also made a profound positive difference in a lot of lives. I want him to pay for his crimes. And to pay dearly. But I don't want to see him totally destroyed as a human being. I don't want to see done to him what he did to others. I do not want, "an eye for an eye." I understand that other people do, and I respect that. I'd just ask that people respect that other people's sense of justice may differ.

Is Brett manipulative, authoritarian, and otherwise precisely the kind of the person who would prey on a female minor over whom he had authority. Yes, he is. And he did precisely that. But I also think he's a father and a mentor who cares a lot about people. I expect that whatever lead him to make that terrible, terrible decision is still very much a part of his psyche. But I also don't think it's his whole person.

The world is most comfortable to our brains when it's black and white. But I don't actually think the world is very black and white. Or, more specifically, I don't think that people are very black and white. Actions? Sure. Brett committed - no shades of grey - an atrocity. But does that make him - as a person - an atrocity? I don't want to take that view of the world. If people think less of me because of that, I'm okay with that.


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Maui5150

Jan 11, 13 9:54

Post #99 of 390 (4447 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [pick6] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

pick6 wrote:
Maui5150 wrote:


Gotta disagree here. You may argue consensuality of a 16/17 year old and I might buy that based upon maturity, life experience, but I would still err on it being immoral, less immoral if the ages are close, like a 18 year old with a 16 year old. Still wrong. Something I have and lived by being off limits.


Just for definition sake: boyfriend and girlfriend of 15 and 13 2 years 4 months about. When he turns 18 and she's got 4 months until 16, is that immoral? When she's 16 or 17 is that still wrong? is it only wrong if they have sex? What if the girl turns 18 first and the boy is just shy of 16. Please tell me the moral guidelines there.

In scenario what is the State, country or province. Immoral, probably not, illegal, possibly.

It also depends on the norms and culture of the state/country the people are in.

If you take the US, age of consent ranges from 16 to 18 generally. If you take Alaska for example, age of consent is 16, but there is an age gap allowance, so a 15 year old I think could have sex with a 16 year old still can be a crime, but lesser than statutory rape, but an 18 year old would be statutory rape. Alaska also would allow where I believe is the 16 year old used a fake ID to get into a dance club and that same 18 year old took her home, even though should be statutory, the fact that he had a reasonable expectation that she was 18 and screened, means he has a shot at getting off. Now if that was Alabama, no nice. Mistake of age is not a defense.

Massachusetts - if she is under 16, it is illegal regardless.

Now where this gets tricky for your boys and girls playing at home... and shame on you for not asking the real "Devils Advocate" question... what if you are in Massachusetts, and BOTH parties are under 16. In fact, I am not even going to specify gender since Massachusetts will free wheel so much... (Though technically I think sodomy is still illegal regardless of gender... ) Technically under Mass Law, I believe both parties could be charged with rape. Makes you wonder if you can have a "victimless crime" if both parties can be thought of criminal defiling each other.

Also not handled by your question of morality is the mental capacity of one of the participants. You in fact could have a 15 year old sleep with an 18 year old, and if the 18 year old had a mental defect, I may think of the the 15 year old being the immoral one and the 18 year old not responsible for their actions.


TravisT

Jan 11, 13 9:58

Post #100 of 390 (4434 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Rappstar wrote:
AlwaysCurious wrote:
<snip>What on earth can you possibly know about his heart, intentions and thinking?</snip>


Nothing. And that's why I chose to change my opinion in advance of anything else. I decided to stop thinking the worst and to take a more optimistic view. I changed my opinion before I ever wrote to Brett. Maybe I'm a sucker. I can live with that.

I should be dead. But I'm not because some random stranger decided to do something remarkable. Of course, some other random stranger decided to do something terrible. But I'd rather assume the best in people, because I just find that to be the worldview I want to pass on to my son.

Quote:
<snip>But I'm surprised that you'll use his contribution to the sport as one of the criteria for deciding if he's reformed.<snip>


What else should I use?

Quote:
<snip>And why is he so important to the sport that you're on here promoting him?</snip>


Because he has a lot of wisdom to share. And because I think if there's one thing that the sporting world, triathlon in particular but sports in general, is short on, it's real wisdom.

Quote:
<snip>He raped a teen girl. By definition, that makes him a scumbag. A forever scumbag? In my eyes, yes (no matter how contrite he now is). Apparently not in yours.<snip>


For the record, I think that he's a forever scumbag too. And I think that he believes he's a forever scumbag too. I just don't think that's ALL he is.

It's human nature to assume that people are basically all X, whatever X is. It's in our basic psychology. We have a very hard time reconciling that good people do bad things and vice versa. You see this in particular with Lance. People believe he didn't dope because of his charity work. And on the flipside, people believe his charity work is a sham because of his massive crimes with regards to doping. I believe that his charity work is genuine and that he genuinely cares about cancer patients. The mission Livestrong makes sense when you think about why Lance almost died - it was not that his cancer was rare or untreatable; it was that he didn't get the right advice early enough, which is what - in part - Livestrong aims to do. People like to quote the 2007 article on Charity Watch that says it cost Livestrong "as much as 45 cents to raise $1." And they ignore the fact that as of 2011 - using 2010 returns - over the history of the charity, over $0.80 of every $1 has gone directly to programs/outreach/etc. I believe that Livestrong is legitimate for the exact same reason that I believe Lance was a fraud and a cheat as an athlete - it's the consensus based on evidence. The tax returns, the Livestrong employees (you don't think one Livestrong employee would roll on Lance if it was a fraud?), etc. Just like it's impossible to say that Lance did not commit atrocious acts of intimidation, fraud, malice, etc as an athlete with all of the evidence surrounding that, I think it's equally impossible to say that Livestrong does not do good work. Now, that's a very hard thing to reconcile in our brains. The easiest way to do it is to assume that the charity work is just a facade. But I don't believe that. I think it's genuine. I think he genuinely cares about the work that Livestrong does in a (mostly) altruistic way. And I also think he's a pathological liar, a fraud, a cheat, and worse. He forced athletes to put their lives at risk by doping; he ruined careers and reputations willfully and vindictively. I think he operates at more polar extremes than the typical person, but I think everyone has good and bad in them. I think it's rare that someone can be so skewed, but I don't believe it's impossible. I would certainly like to see Lance held accountable for his crimes to a much greater degree than he has been. He RUINED a lot of lives. But he also made a profound positive difference in a lot of lives. I want him to pay for his crimes. And to pay dearly. But I don't want to see him totally destroyed as a human being. I don't want to see done to him what he did to others. I do not want, "an eye for an eye." I understand that other people do, and I respect that. I'd just ask that people respect that other people's sense of justice may differ.

Is Brett manipulative, authoritarian, and otherwise precisely the kind of the person who would prey on a female minor over whom he had authority. Yes, he is. And he did precisely that. But I also think he's a father and a mentor who cares a lot about people. I expect that whatever lead him to make that terrible, terrible decision is still very much a part of his psyche. But I also don't think it's his whole person.

The world is most comfortable to our brains when it's black and white. But I don't actually think the world is very black and white. Or, more specifically, I don't think that people are very black and white. Actions? Sure. Brett committed - no shades of grey - an atrocity. But does that make him - as a person - an atrocity? I don't want to take that view of the world. If people think less of me because of that, I'm okay with that.


This is the problem with living in the microcosm of the ST triathlon world and only thinking in the small context of sport. You and the athletes he coaches are adults though and are free to balance his crime against what benefit he can provide you, or in your case "triathlon" as you claim. You apparently don't even feel he has lost the credibility to speak on issues related to coaching children let alone adults and support him as a source of knowledge in that sphere over others who don't share his background.

Actions affect credibility though and his have an effect on his ability to speak to issues related to kids. Your decision to support him affects your credibility on all the topics you speak on. I know I trust you a lot less now then before when you espouse a position or opinion given your ability to overlook and support Sutton. You obviously don't care as you stated above though.
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(This post was edited by TravisT on Jan 11, 13 10:00)


devashish_paul

Jan 11, 13 10:01

Post #101 of 390 (3484 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I am generally good about considering the world being shades of grey and I don't need to like or hate all aspects of a given person, and should be able to step back and accept a person's positive attributes while not supporting his negative ones.

On the coaching front though, I have difficulty separating Sutton's technical capabilities specific to triathlon from his moral/role model responsibilities as a coach in stewarding athletes, specific young impressionable ones over which he has great influence, who may not be able to exercise full adult judgement themselves. For a coach, both go hand in hard. Obviously many are able to make that separation, but perhaps for me, since my largest coaching role is with young impressionable athletes, I just can't get past it. Yesterday, I was on skis with 9 teenage girls of the exact age bracket that Sutton preyed on. Just the thought of him being on the field with us at the same time was really hard to deal with.

He may have moved on and reformed as a person, but like a doctor or a teacher, or a psychologist with a professional designation, if you use your position to transgress the confidence of those whose care you are been entrusted with, then you are removed from the profession. In my view, coaches need to be held to the same standard. No second chances.

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TriBeer

Jan 11, 13 10:08

Post #102 of 390 (3460 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

"Just like it's impossible to say that Lance did not commit atrocious acts of intimidation, fraud, malice, etc. . ." (Rappstar)

Do you believe LA's teammates were afraid of being incinerated by him (Tygart)?

Lance is super human, but not that super human?

Some of this Lance rhetoric is an exaggeration. Overall, if Jordan can forgive Mr. Sutton, he can soften his position on Lance. Maybe not today, but some day!




(This post was edited by TriBeer on Jan 11, 13 14:17)


TravisT

Jan 11, 13 10:12

Post #103 of 390 (3445 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [TriBeer] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

TriBeer wrote:
"Just like it's impossible to say that Lance did not commit atrocious acts of intimidation, fraud, malice, etc. . ." (Rappstar)

Do you believe LA's teammates were afraid of being incinerated by him (Tygart)?

Lance is super human, but really?

Some of this rhetoric is an exaggeration.


Please don't try to hijack what is a fairly serious thread topic with more of your inane LA comments. We all know you support him. I fall on that side as well. Take it somewhere else though.
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Rappstar

Jan 11, 13 10:30

Post #104 of 390 (3410 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [TravisT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

So you think the fact that he committed statutory rape means that he shouldn't be allowed to offer comments on the athletic development of children? I fail to see how those two things are related.

"I think that it's crazy that we have our young kids doing core exercises and running in 'stability' shoes."

"Your opinion doesn't matter because you raped a child."

Is that, in summary, what you are saying? That doesn't make any sense to me.

And you think less of me because I choose to forgive him for the crime which he committed? That makes more sense to me, because I understand that it's important that we share a basic understanding of morality and consequence. But I'm not saying what Sutton did is okay; I'm just saying I don't believe it defines him as a person.


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TravisT

Jan 11, 13 10:36

Post #105 of 390 (3390 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Rappstar wrote:
So you think the fact that he committed statutory rape means that he shouldn't be allowed to offer comments on the athletic development of children? I fail to see how those two things are related.

"I think that it's crazy that we have our young kids doing core exercises and running in 'stability' shoes."

"Your opinion doesn't matter because you raped a child."

Is that, in summary, what you are saying? That doesn't make any sense to me.

And you think less of me because I choose to forgive him for the crime which he committed? That makes more sense to me, because I understand that it's important that we share a basic understanding of morality and consequence. But I'm not saying what Sutton did is okay; I'm just saying I don't believe it defines him as a person.

Read what Dev wrote. As usual he well thought out. Sutton lost his ability to ever have any place in the coaching world, especially related to kids, despite what you may think he brings to the table. You are free to disagree of course and support him as you continue to do. I think it's sad and reflects poorly on you. Simply my opinion though and one you've stated you're not worried about so there really isn't any value to debating it with you.
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jackmott

Jan 11, 13 10:40

Post #106 of 390 (3383 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [TravisT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I think this is a fair philosophy, but you seem to not share the same line of thinking when it comes to an athlete having a place in the athletic world after years of organized cheating.

Do you feel there is a significant distinction there, or do we as humans just tend to more easily forgive the people that we find inspiring or amazing?

TravisT wrote:
Sutton lost his ability to ever have any place in the coaching world


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AlwaysCurious

Jan 11, 13 10:42

Post #107 of 390 (3380 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

We agree that a heinous action does not make a person entirely evil. In fact, I'd argue that the vast majority of criminals also have a lot of good qualities.

That said, "reform" doesn't mean doing good things in parts of life unrelated to the crime. It means reforming the characteristics that led to the crime. Sutton is still the manipulative, authoritarian coach searching for personal glory that he was at 27; they're the same qualities that led him to his crime, and the same qualities that make him say "FU" to the rest of the world.

Reform would be him recognizing that he abused his position as a coach so much that he should switch careers and start over. Reform would be dropping the manipulation and self-aggrandizement. Reform would be volunteering at USAT coaching certification programs and talking honestly about why he committed his crime, and the danger signals that other coaches should be aware of.

I see nothing of the wisdom you think he brings to triathlon. I see a lot of knowledge about training and racing. But wisdom is the ability to synthesize that knowledge into bigger life principles that transcend triathlon and sport. Sutton, through his actions and words, continually demonstrates that he is incapable of guiding himself--let alone his athletes--to be better human beings.

If he is in fact a father and mentor who cares a lot about people, why would it "totally destroy" him to do that in a medium outside of coaching? Lance can do good work through Livestrong, but shouldn't be involved in cycling/triathlon. Pete Rose can do lots of good for the world, as long as it's outside baseball. Why let Sutton off the hook? Why let him continue in the sport that he so violated? Why not insist that he move on?

Jordan, I appreciate that you don't want to stand in judgment of people's intentions, or speculate on the good or bad about people. But this is a man who acknowledged committing a terrible crime, so we're talking about facts, not speculation. It is, in fact, our job to stand in judgment of our peers/colleagues/friends who commit certain actions. To say, "Sure, but he's a good father and knows a lot about triathlon," is to abdicate the responsibility to punish those who we otherwise like. To ban him from triathlon and coaching is not the same as saying he is an entirely evil person.


Rappstar

Jan 11, 13 10:44

Post #108 of 390 (3372 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [TravisT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I read what Dev wrote, and I agree it's well thought out. I agree with some. Disagree with other parts. But I don't think any less of Dev as a person because of what we disagree on.

That's what I find confusing about your stance. I don't have a problem disagreeing with you. That is what I am not worried about. And while I certainly respect your write to think less of me, it does make me sad.

In other words, I don't care that you and I have different opinions. But I do care that my opinion makes you think less of me as a person. Now, I'm not going to change my opinion simply to make you like me, but I think it's unfortunate that we can't agree to disagree and also maintain a respect for each other.

I think the Lance "debate" (which is less of debate than people shouting at each other) really has highlighted this here on this forum, but it's most pervasive in modern politics. And it troubles me. As someone who supports Lance, I thought you might have taken a less "with me or against me" attitude. I don't think less of you because you choose to have a different opinion of Lance than I do. FWIW, which maybe isn't very much...


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TravisT

Jan 11, 13 10:52

Post #109 of 390 (3350 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [jackmott] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

jackmott wrote:
I think this is a fair philosophy, but you seem to not share the same line of thinking when it comes to an athlete having a place in the athletic world after years of organized cheating.

Do you feel there is a significant distinction there, or do we as humans just tend to more easily forgive the people that we find inspiring or amazing?

TravisT wrote:
Sutton lost his ability to ever have any place in the coaching world

I really don't want to devolve this thread into another LA one. See my comment to Tribeer above.

That said I simply don't care about what LA and did nothing is going to get me to. I fully appreciate people and their position who feel LA nor Sutton have a place in sport. They argue from a consistent place. If you somehow feel that LA's actions are worse then child molestation, and that is what it was despite some of the idiots who want to shade it grey on here, thenI have some serious issues with where you draw the line on right and wrong. Sure LA doped, he broke rules, probably caused some pain and suffering in the lives of others but for me that doesn't reach the level of what Sutton did. I have no issue with you disagreeing with my lack of care regarding LA but comparing the actions of both is a sliding scale and Sutton falls far lower down. If you live in a world of black and white morality, and I don't think you at least do, then it would be impossible to reconcile how I see it but most people aren't like that.
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jackmott

Jan 11, 13 10:54

Post #110 of 390 (3344 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [TravisT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

A lot of the non american world doesn't care much about what Brett did either. Just different levels of 'shock and awe' there across cultures.


TravisT wrote:
jackmott wrote:
I think this is a fair philosophy, but you seem to not share the same line of thinking when it comes to an athlete having a place in the athletic world after years of organized cheating.

Do you feel there is a significant distinction there, or do we as humans just tend to more easily forgive the people that we find inspiring or amazing?

TravisT wrote:
Sutton lost his ability to ever have any place in the coaching world

I really don't want to devolve this thread into another LA one. See my comment to Tribeer above.

That said I simply don't care about what LA and did nothing is going to get me to. I fully appreciate people and their position who feel LA nor Sutton have a place in sport. They argue from a consistent place. If you somehow feel that LA's actions are worse then child molestation, and that is what it was despite some of the idiots who want to shade it grey on here, thenI have some serious issues with where you draw the line on right and wrong. Sure LA doped, he broke rules, probably caused some pain and suffering in the lives of others but for me that doesn't reach the level of what Sutton did. I have no issue with you disagreeing with my lack of care regarding LA but comparing the actions of both is a sliding scale and Sutton falls far lower down. If you live in a world of black and white morality, and I don't think you at least do, then it would be impossible to reconcile how I see it but most people aren't like that.


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Rappstar

Jan 11, 13 10:57

Post #111 of 390 (3338 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [AlwaysCurious] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thanks. That was a great reply. Some stuff - a lot of stuff - I agree with. Other stuff, I just can't. I will give Nicola Spirig as a brief example. Brett wrote about her after the Olympics that they talked about what she should do now. Brett said that she and Reto Hug (her partner) should start a family; that she'd achieved everything there was to achieve in sport, and that what was important now was to pass on the gifts she had as an athlete and as a person. I read that post and saw it as genuine. Maybe you didn't read it. Maybe you did but drew a different conclusion. In any case, I disagree that there are no examples of him guiding his athletes to be better people.

He did the same with Chrissie. She struggled because she saw triathlon as "meaningless." Brett told that through triathlon, she could gain a platform that she could then use for meaningful change, which is what I think she wants to do now. Again, that doesn't seem to me to be the advice of someone who is incapable of guiding his athletes to better people.

I don't disagree that it would be appropriate to ban him from coaching minors. As far as I know, he doesn't coach minors. I don't think that he should be banned from coaching entirely - partly because I don't see how that's really enforceable - but I appreciate your reasons for why he should. And, in general, I don't disagree with any of what you wrote about needing to enforce the laws and morals of society. But I do disagree that there is no evidence of real wisdom.


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TravisT

Jan 11, 13 11:01

Post #112 of 390 (3333 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Rappstar wrote:
I read what Dev wrote, and I agree it's well thought out. I agree with some. Disagree with other parts. But I don't think any less of Dev as a person because of what we disagree on.

That's what I find confusing about your stance. I don't have a problem disagreeing with you. That is what I am not worried about. And while I certainly respect your write to think less of me, it does make me sad.

In other words, I don't care that you and I have different opinions. But I do care that my opinion makes you think less of me as a person. Now, I'm not going to change my opinion simply to make you like me, but I think it's unfortunate that we can't agree to disagree and also maintain a respect for each other.

I think the Lance "debate" (which is less of debate than people shouting at each other) really has highlighted this here on this forum, but it's most pervasive in modern politics. And it troubles me. As someone who supports Lance, I thought you might have taken a less "with me or against me" attitude. I don't think less of you because you choose to have a different opinion of Lance than I do. FWIW, which maybe isn't very much...

I should have worded that differently. I don't think less of you as person it just affects how I view you as a spokesman and someone I listen to and look up to in the sport of triathlon. Your opinions and actions carry far more weight then mine do in the sport and you are going to get held to a much higher standard. There are a lot of people who feel that despite Sutton's apparent contrition for his actions, which I feel are much like LA's contrition will be in that he's just saying what he needs to, he has no place in coaching. Your support of him lends credence to his place in the sport though and touting his opinions on something related to kids lends even more support to an area of the sport he should absolutely never under any circumstance have a place or even deserve an opinion in.
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TravisT

Jan 11, 13 11:02

Post #113 of 390 (3338 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [jackmott] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

jackmott wrote:
A lot of the non american world doesn't care much about what Brett did either. Just different levels of 'shock and awe' there across cultures.


TravisT wrote:
jackmott wrote:
I think this is a fair philosophy, but you seem to not share the same line of thinking when it comes to an athlete having a place in the athletic world after years of organized cheating.

Do you feel there is a significant distinction there, or do we as humans just tend to more easily forgive the people that we find inspiring or amazing?

TravisT wrote:
Sutton lost his ability to ever have any place in the coaching world


I really don't want to devolve this thread into another LA one. See my comment to Tribeer above.

That said I simply don't care about what LA and did nothing is going to get me to. I fully appreciate people and their position who feel LA nor Sutton have a place in sport. They argue from a consistent place. If you somehow feel that LA's actions are worse then child molestation, and that is what it was despite some of the idiots who want to shade it grey on here, thenI have some serious issues with where you draw the line on right and wrong. Sure LA doped, he broke rules, probably caused some pain and suffering in the lives of others but for me that doesn't reach the level of what Sutton did. I have no issue with you disagreeing with my lack of care regarding LA but comparing the actions of both is a sliding scale and Sutton falls far lower down. If you live in a world of black and white morality, and I don't think you at least do, then it would be impossible to reconcile how I see it but most people aren't like that.

Dubai is a great place to race isn't it :-)
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jackmott

Jan 11, 13 11:06

Post #114 of 390 (3332 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [TravisT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Man I wonder what their take on this would be!

But yes it has been disturbing to me how little non americans care about that.


TravisT wrote:
jackmott wrote:
A lot of the non american world doesn't care much about what Brett did either. Just different levels of 'shock and awe' there across cultures.


TravisT wrote:
jackmott wrote:
I think this is a fair philosophy, but you seem to not share the same line of thinking when it comes to an athlete having a place in the athletic world after years of organized cheating.

Do you feel there is a significant distinction there, or do we as humans just tend to more easily forgive the people that we find inspiring or amazing?

TravisT wrote:
Sutton lost his ability to ever have any place in the coaching world


I really don't want to devolve this thread into another LA one. See my comment to Tribeer above.

That said I simply don't care about what LA and did nothing is going to get me to. I fully appreciate people and their position who feel LA nor Sutton have a place in sport. They argue from a consistent place. If you somehow feel that LA's actions are worse then child molestation, and that is what it was despite some of the idiots who want to shade it grey on here, thenI have some serious issues with where you draw the line on right and wrong. Sure LA doped, he broke rules, probably caused some pain and suffering in the lives of others but for me that doesn't reach the level of what Sutton did. I have no issue with you disagreeing with my lack of care regarding LA but comparing the actions of both is a sliding scale and Sutton falls far lower down. If you live in a world of black and white morality, and I don't think you at least do, then it would be impossible to reconcile how I see it but most people aren't like that.

Dubai is a great place to race isn't it :-)


Local running hero Liz Shelton gets her first TT bike and reports on Jack's Generic Triathlon
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
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Rappstar

Jan 11, 13 11:09

Post #115 of 390 (3321 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [TravisT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

TravisT wrote:
Rappstar wrote:
I read what Dev wrote, and I agree it's well thought out. I agree with some. Disagree with other parts. But I don't think any less of Dev as a person because of what we disagree on.

That's what I find confusing about your stance. I don't have a problem disagreeing with you. That is what I am not worried about. And while I certainly respect your write to think less of me, it does make me sad.

In other words, I don't care that you and I have different opinions. But I do care that my opinion makes you think less of me as a person. Now, I'm not going to change my opinion simply to make you like me, but I think it's unfortunate that we can't agree to disagree and also maintain a respect for each other.

I think the Lance "debate" (which is less of debate than people shouting at each other) really has highlighted this here on this forum, but it's most pervasive in modern politics. And it troubles me. As someone who supports Lance, I thought you might have taken a less "with me or against me" attitude. I don't think less of you because you choose to have a different opinion of Lance than I do. FWIW, which maybe isn't very much...

I should have worded that differently. I don't think less of you as person it just affects how I view you as a spokesman and someone I listen to and look up to in the sport of triathlon. Your opinions and actions carry far more weight then mine do in the sport and you are going to get held to a much higher standard. There are a lot of people who feel that despite Sutton's apparent contrition for his actions, which I feel are much like LA's contrition will be in that he's just saying what he needs to, he has no place in coaching. Your support of him lends credence to his place in the sport though and touting his opinions on something related to kids lends even more support to an area of the sport he should absolutely never under any circumstance have a place or even deserve an opinion in.

That's fair. Thanks.


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RandyS

Jan 11, 13 11:10

Post #116 of 390 (3316 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [-BrandonMarshTX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I don't have an argument to make or moral commentary but I do have a few questions about the Sutton/Team TBB approach...


One aspect about Sutton that I don't understand is why he is so openly confrontational in one aspect but seems to care a lot about his athletes and wanting to improve the sport in general. When it comes to his methods and rationale for training an athlete in a given way, he frequently comments that the rest of the world thinks he's an idiot. Aside from the moral questions (which Sutton has never tried to defend as far as I have read), what experts think Sutton is an idiot or that his methods are unsound? Even Sutton agrees that his approach is not for everyone (though he chalks that up to the athlete's psyche rather than the limitations of the Sutton method).

In regards to his approach to improving the sport (or at least making it more economically viable for pro triathletes), he appears equally confrontational. Does he feel that to improve the appeal of triathlon, a wrecking ball of a personality is needed to smash through the old ideas (e.g. that triathlon is just too boring for mass appeal)? I tend to see the merits of such an argument but the approach is rather curious. I don't really follow the guy much so I don't understand what Team TBB's long-term approach to improving the sport is. Is it the concept of coach/sponsor package to turn non-star pros into stars?


nameless ghoul

Jan 11, 13 11:43

Post #117 of 390 (3268 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

My jaw finally dropped..

Yes, as a matter of fact his opinion on coaching children does not count. He raped a child so, no, I don't want to hear his opinion. He lost that right when he touched that little girl. Hate to break it to you but he's not the only great coach in the world, as you personally know.

Some thing in life are so simple...YOU DONT TOUCH KIDS!!! Why can you not see that this should have life lasting ramifications. Triathlon is essentially a meaningless pursuit. His presence in the sport is not required for the sport to grow or life to continue.

When people are convicted of insider trading they are banned from the stock exchange. Why should this be any different and why can't you see that?


TravisT

Jan 11, 13 11:48

Post #118 of 390 (3253 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [butch] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

This is what Jordan wrote about the Sutton article. I'm not attacking you Jordan. You put it out there in public. I just don't see how you can write that as a parent.

"I feel privileged to have gotten to know Brett Sutton as a friend (over email) this past year. But I had no idea until today he was a father. Great read on parenting, kids, REAL development, and the insanity of what we are doing to our children athletically/physically. A great read."
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AlwaysCurious

Jan 11, 13 12:24

Post #119 of 390 (3197 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Rappstar wrote:
Thanks. That was a great reply. Some stuff - a lot of stuff - I agree with. Other stuff, I just can't. I will give Nicola Spirig as a brief example. Brett wrote about her after the Olympics that they talked about what she should do now. Brett said that she and Reto Hug (her partner) should start a family; that she'd achieved everything there was to achieve in sport, and that what was important now was to pass on the gifts she had as an athlete and as a person. I read that post and saw it as genuine. Maybe you didn't read it. Maybe you did but drew a different conclusion. In any case, I disagree that there are no examples of him guiding his athletes to be better people.

He did the same with Chrissie. She struggled because she saw triathlon as "meaningless." Brett told that through triathlon, she could gain a platform that she could then use for meaningful change, which is what I think she wants to do now. Again, that doesn't seem to me to be the advice of someone who is incapable of guiding his athletes to better people.

I don't disagree that it would be appropriate to ban him from coaching minors. As far as I know, he doesn't coach minors. I don't think that he should be banned from coaching entirely - partly because I don't see how that's really enforceable - but I appreciate your reasons for why he should. And, in general, I don't disagree with any of what you wrote about needing to enforce the laws and morals of society. But I do disagree that there is no evidence of real wisdom.

Those are two good examples of him advising athletes in ways that transcend sport. I'll accept that there may be more. And it does show that he can have a positive influence on people he's mentoring.

It doesn't, however, change my desire to see him stop coaching, and to see pro triathletes stop working with him.

I agree that we can use more wisdom in triathlon. But hundreds of coaches are upset that kids are doing core strengthening programs and wearing stability shoes. Let's highlight messages of wisdom from people who haven't violated basic tenets of the sport.

Anyway, thanks for the discussion.


pick6

Jan 11, 13 12:41

Post #120 of 390 (3162 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [TriBeer] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

TriBeer wrote:
"Just like it's impossible to say that Lance did not commit atrocious acts of intimidation, fraud, malice, etc. . ." (Rappstar)

Do you believe LA's teammates were afraid of being incinerated by him (Tygart)?

Lance is super human, but really?

Some of this Lance rhetoric is an exaggeration. Overall, if Jordan can forgive Mr. Sutton, he can soften is position of Lance. Maybe not today, but some day!

Difference: Lance hasn't even apologized (yet) further he hasnt done anything to show he cares to make things better. What Sutton did was horrible, but by all accounts that one relationship was his only inappropriate one. he was punished (such as it was) and has cleaned up his act. Lance has very likely doped his entire career, and even when presented with multiple chances to clean up his act, failed to do so. recidivist behavior is the real indicator of whether or not a person has changed.


TravisT

Jan 11, 13 12:49

Post #121 of 390 (3146 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [pick6] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Going to say the same thing to you Ben I did to Tribeer. Can you seriously not find enough LA action elsewhere that you have to hijack every thread that might be remotely related?
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Mad Jee

Jan 11, 13 13:16

Post #122 of 390 (3100 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I don't disagree that it would be appropriate to ban him from coaching minors. As far as I know, he doesn't coach minors. I don't think that he should be banned from coaching entirely

Here's an analogy for you. I try to read what you write on here, and I follow both your tweets and your blog as I have found you to be an intelligent and interesting person whose views I enjoy reading. I know that you are pretty openly dismissive of our country's political system and financial institutions.

So people that commit political crimes, or commit some sort of financial fraud (whether at the institutional or individual level), should those people be allowed to return to their professions? Politicians, like policemen, teachers, coaches and few other professions have a tremendous amount of influence over people's lives. And financial institutions, as we all learned 5 years ago, as so interwoven into our country's poli/econ infrastructure that we can't do without them and are nearly at their mercy.

Would you trust a fraudalent banker or his institution with your parent's retirement? Should a politician convicted of using his/her position of authority for personal financial gain be allowed to hold another similar position?

And the hypotheticals above ignore the whole issue that in Sutton's situation it was a sexual crime against a minor, not a financial or political crime against an adult.

You break the trust of your profession, in my opinion you lose your ability to hold that same profession in the future.


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ajthomas

Jan 11, 13 13:22

Post #123 of 390 (3083 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Ehh I don't blame you if you are getting tired of defending yourself but here you go:

Sutton was in such desperate need to feel powerful that he manipulated a little girl into having sex with him. To the extent that forgiveness matters, it should only be given if he understands that power and control are nothing compared to love and compassion.

I don’t know him, but I have read a couple of his blogs, and honestly I see a pathetic man who has structured his entire life as a hierarchy where he sits firmly entrenched on top. So I view him the same way I view other child predators: Someone who is scheming for their next victim.

I just don't get it Jordan.


Rappstar

Jan 11, 13 13:54

Post #124 of 390 (3041 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

The short answer is that I think it depends. I think all of these hypotheticals require the same sort of black-and-white thinking that I don't think like.

I will preempt this next statement with saying that I don't believe this crime is at all comparable to what Sutton did. It's NOT statutory rape...

That said, President Obama's campaign was fined $375,000 for failing to disclose donors. It is among the highest fines ever levied by the FEC.

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/...federal-campaign-fec

Now, does this mean that I think Obama should be impeached? I do not.

Now, if you are asking me if Sutton should be barred from coaching minors? Yes I do. And - as far as I know - he does not coach any minors. His article on kids' sports was based on his own children. Do I think that he should have been barred from having children? Even though I mean that as a rhetorical question, I'll actually answer it and say I don't.

So, as is so often the case, the answer to your question is, "it depends." Considering that the job of coach is often especially ethereal - it's much harder to enforce a ban on coaching than it is to enforce a ban on someone serving in a government office - how do you really ban someone from coaching. Banning someone from contact with minors? That's much easier, though again, are we to say that means someone cannot have children? But, more directly, what does it mean to be a coach? That's much less clear cut, and that's PART OF why I don't support a ban on coaching. I don't want to have to apply the "I know it when I see it" definition of law to coaching.

I don't see that somehow justice is better served by Sutton being a "laborer," as realAlbertan suggested. I appreciate that other folks do.


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Mad Jee

Jan 11, 13 14:05

Post #125 of 390 (3021 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

That Obama fine analogy is BS, for a variety of reasons. Addressing the aspect of it being the largest ever, well his campaign also raised the most money ever, and other campaigns have received similar fines when you consider the actual size of the respective campaigns and the amounts raised. I figured we could dismiss that right away and then either move it to the LR for further discussion or just drop it altogether, I am fine with either.

With regards to this line you keep repeating about it being hard to ban someone from coaching, so just because it's hard means we shouldn't do it? To swing back to a political analogy, that's like saying "Ah, there is no easy answer to stop this gun violence, so let's just do nothing".

I could be wrong, but isn't Sutton banned from coaching in Australia? I am almost certain there is a ban on him coaching somewhere, so some federation has figured it out. Going back to my original analogy, let's say an LA cop is dismissed from the force for police brutality, would you then be OK with him joining the NYPD? Even though he violated the most basic trust of his position of authority?


Portside Athletics Blog


devashish_paul

Jan 11, 13 14:20

Post #126 of 390 (4280 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Hey Jordan, first of all, I am glad that we can all actually have a grown up discussion on this thread (unlike some other threads about number 7 that go where number 7 threads go) and as you said, agree on some points and respectfully disagree on others.

My thought is that as a coach, you are entrusted with the large responsibility, be it of minors or of adults. Many of us are saying that Sutton relinquishes his privilege of being a coach (across the board), when he violated the trust that his athletes (and their parents) place in him. At least the authorities in question in Australia have also agreed with many of us and have barred him from coaching there (from what I understand). Sutton has chosen to circumvent that and establish shop in the likes of Switzerland, the Philippines and Korea (may have in other place too).

As I said, I have the same difficulty accepting him practicing coaching as I would of a doctor/psychologist/teacher who did the same things he did and return to their professions...even if they only practiced medicine, psychology or teaching of grown adults, I'd still have difficulty if someone was banned from practicing those professions in Australia and circumvented it by setting up shop in Switzerland, Philippines or Korea.

I don't have a daughter and like you only have a son. But I coach teenagers of both sexes. I know the responsibility I have to their parents. Those parents are relying on me to make their kids better humans in addition to better athletes. That is what they should expect of every coach. When you violate that trust, as Australia has done, you should lose the privilege to coach. It is one of the first things covered in Canada's NCCP Introduction to Community Coaching Module.

My comments are exclusively related to Sutton coaching. I hold no ill will towards any Team TBB athlete, because I am a commentator from far, judging the scenario based only on what I have read. I respect many team TBB athletes and them working with Sutton does not change my views on Sutton coaching but at the same time, it does not change the respect I have of these athletes in many other domains of their life. They were privy to many more details than us in the public fan base when they chose to align themselves with Team TBB. Like you said, shades of grey, not all white, not all black.

Anyway, in summary we agree on him not being able to coach minors. We disagree with him being able to coach adults. He could still stay involved in many ways in the sport without coaching nor having to be a laborer (as realAlbertan was saying).

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AndrewPhx

Jan 11, 13 15:11

Post #127 of 390 (4231 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I have daughters. I will not go into the details of what happened with one of them and a coach. What I can say is that I will never forget and will never forgive. Ever.


caf0

Jan 11, 13 15:20

Post #128 of 390 (4219 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I've read both that he has been banned for life from coaching in Australia and also that he received a 3-year ban there - not sure.
He was reportedly escorted out of a race in Japan.
He would be unable to obtain a work permit in some countries (convicted child molesters are not warmly welcomed); indeed he was to teach young triathletes in the U.K. in 2005 but had to cancel.

Even were one against a ban, there is a chasm between that and promoting his coaching.

Excerpt from http://www.mako.org.au/brett_sutton1.html
CONTROVERSIAL Queensland triathlon coach Brett Sutton has been barred from conducting planned workshops with young triathletes in England because he is a convicted sex offender.
Sutton was due to run a weekend camp at Torquay in April with some of Britain's most promising young triathletes, but officials intervened to stop him attending.
The 12 participants had paid about $A500 each to attend.
Sutton pleaded guilty in 1999 in the Southport District Court on the Gold Coast to sexually abusing a 13-year-old five times, dating back 12 years, while he was her swimming coach in Brisbane.
He was sacked by Triathlon Australia and is now based in Switzerland.



Mad Jee

Jan 11, 13 15:28

Post #129 of 390 (4201 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [caf0] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I cannot understand Jordan's comment "How do you even enforce a ban?"

It just seems so contrary to what I would have expected his opinion to be. So it's gone from a full defense of Sutton being able to coach to "Well, even if you're right, I don't know that it's possible."

We can at least try, right? A simple step would be that any athlete associated with him would also be banned, that would be a pretty simple way to enforce a ban. I've disagreed with Jordan throughout this whole thread, but on this specific aspect, it's not just disagreement on a value position, he simply me thinking "WTF?".


Portside Athletics Blog


zoom

Jan 11, 13 15:42

Post #130 of 390 (4178 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I have the same WTF reactions like you.

If Jerry Sandusky were to write a football/linebacker coaching book with great advice, how would we feel about other coaches and NFL players tweeting out those advice and give credit to Sandusky for such advice? Every time that you attribute something positive from Sutton, you one way or another are supporting him. You are validating him. Such validations should not be placed on someone who has molested a kid, let alone more than once. There are many of other great coaches out there that you can quote from.

Evidently he doesn't think much about staying away from coaching kids because he tried to coach kids again at a clinic in England 6 years AFTER, I repeat ... AFTER pleading guilty to molesting a kid. How would we feel about an 8th-9th grade teacher attempting to teach 8th-9th grade kids again 6 AFTERS pleading guilty to molesting one of his students.

============================================
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bobloblaw

Jan 11, 13 15:50

Post #131 of 390 (4161 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Rappstar wrote:
Now, if you are asking me if Sutton should be barred from coaching minors? Yes I do. And - as far as I know - he does not coach any minors. His article on kids' sports was based on his own children. Do I think that he should have been barred from having children? Even though I mean that as a rhetorical question, I'll actually answer it and say I don't.

What most in this thread seem to be implying is that Sutton should be banned from having OPINIONS.

Can we not separate the information in the article from our emotional responses to the person who wrote it?


Rappstar

Jan 11, 13 19:17

Post #132 of 390 (4040 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Mad Jee wrote:
That Obama fine analogy is BS, for a variety of reasons. Addressing the aspect of it being the largest ever, well his campaign also raised the most money ever, and other campaigns have received similar fines when you consider the actual size of the respective campaigns and the amounts raised. I figured we could dismiss that right away and then either move it to the LR for further discussion or just drop it altogether, I am fine with either.

With regards to this line you keep repeating about it being hard to ban someone from coaching, so just because it's hard means we shouldn't do it? To swing back to a political analogy, that's like saying "Ah, there is no easy answer to stop this gun violence, so let's just do nothing".

I could be wrong, but isn't Sutton banned from coaching in Australia? I am almost certain there is a ban on him coaching somewhere, so some federation has figured it out. Going back to my original analogy, let's say an LA cop is dismissed from the force for police brutality, would you then be OK with him joining the NYPD? Even though he violated the most basic trust of his position of authority?

I could have picked a better politics analogy, certainly. That was just the first that came to mind. We can dismiss it or move it. Whatever...

I think either you misunderstand my point on the ban or I did a poor job wording it or both.

Pursuant to your cop question. If the guy is banned from LAPD for excessive force, am I okay with him joining the NYPD as a clerk? I dunno. I'm not saying that's a direct analogy, since Sutton is in a very similar role, except for not coaching minors.

So there's the question I think of:
- should he banned from coaching minors?
- should he banned from coaching entirely?
- how do we define what it means to be a coach?

I certainly don't mean that we should do nothing. Let's take Milken, as an example. He's banned by the SEC from "any involvement in the securities industry." Now, does that mean he can't offer advice to someone on what stocks to buy? To sell?

That's part of my problem with bans, in general, of any kind. Where do you draw the line? I actually think this is a more interesting discussion in a lot of ways than even whether or not someone should be banned. What does a ban really mean? What if an athlete asks Sutton for advice over email? Is that coaching?

I don't see why my stance is so "WTF." I'm saying, "okay, let's talk about what you believe should be done. How does that work?"

I don't see why it's so absurd in your opinion that I think Brett should be allowed to coach both because I think he is not coaching minors, and because he admitted wrongdoing and is working - in my opinion anyway - to redeem himself, and because trying to actually enact a ban on something like coaching is too nebulous to be meaningful. My opinion is the result of all of those things. Why should it be the result of just one?

To swing back to that same political analogy, I'd say, "there's no easy to stop this gun violence, so that's not do something that is knee-jerk and seems 'right' - like the 90s assault weapon ban, which statistically had basically zero actual effect on gun violence."


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pick6

Jan 11, 13 19:31

Post #133 of 390 (4026 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [TravisT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

TravisT wrote:
Going to say the same thing to you Ben I did to Tribeer. Can you seriously not find enough LA action elsewhere that you have to hijack every thread that might be remotely related?


I responded to the point made, that's all. Further, Im not close to the only one making that comparison, you had a long conversation with Jordan about it, and he did it too. You're being a dick. My stuff on Sutton was the primary point of my post.


(This post was edited by pick6 on Jan 11, 13 19:35)


caf0

Jan 11, 13 19:49

Post #134 of 390 (4002 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

USADA has banned 3 coaches (likely 4 in the near future).
What are the rules regarding such bans?
I would guess pro athletes risk sanctions for seeking professional advice from banned individuals, possibly only if some form of payment is made.
But perhaps the ban has few teeth.

Quote:
That's part of my problem with bans, in general, of any kind. Where do you draw the line? I actually think this is a more interesting discussion in a lot of ways than even whether or not someone should be banned. What does a ban really mean? What if an athlete asks Sutton for advice over email? Is that coaching?


BDoughtie

Jan 11, 13 20:12

Post #135 of 390 (3977 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

That's part of my problem with bans, in general, of any kind. Where do you draw the line? I actually think this is a more interesting discussion in a lot of ways than even whether or not someone should be banned. What does a ban really mean? What if an athlete asks Sutton for advice over email? Is that coaching?


__________

I think what is almost as important is how the community responds, regardless of actual sanctions and this can be applied to just about any controversial issue. Based on the feedback on here, there are some that are willing to overlook his past transgressions, and there are others that cant overlook that.

In terms of drawing the line, there is never really ever a hard line in anything. Someone can usually find a way around just about any decision (IE, your example about getting "coaching" from emails).
------------------
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http://www.aomultisport.com


styrrell

Jan 11, 13 20:24

Post #136 of 390 (3967 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In many countries coaches, particularly of children, have to be certified, so banning in those countries means you can't get hired, or volunteer as a coach. In mst other places a federation can ban a coach, but that just means he can't work for the federation or member in an official capacity.

I wouldn't be against coaches being licensed in some way, but thats pretty much a state by state or country by country type of thing.
Styrrell


BDoughtie

Jan 11, 13 20:37

Post #137 of 390 (3954 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [styrrell] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

For an already established coach, those regulations dont really matter though. It's as you say, being "banned" only means you cant basically be an representative of said country or get any of their benefits. Hell, look at how many top athletes have flocked to Sutton after all of this. We have pro's on this thread already saying they've pretty much ok'd/accepted/forgiven what has happened to Sutton's past, because they could gain athletic achievement under him. ETA: And I'm not saying that's wrong, it's pretty much a personal decision that each has to face.

I dont think any country makes coaches be certified, whether working with kids or not. I know of several coaches in my area (Raleigh) that work with and hold kid triathlon camps/races that arent certified with anyone (nor will they ever be).
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


(This post was edited by BDoughtie on Jan 11, 13 20:39)


Nick Mallett

Jan 11, 13 20:48

Post #138 of 390 (3938 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

BDoughtie wrote:
For an already established coach, those regulations dont really matter though. It's as you say, being "banned" only means you cant basically be an representative of said country or get any of their benefits. Hell, look at how many top athletes have flocked to Sutton after all of this. We have pro's on this thread already saying they've pretty much ok'd/accepted/forgiven what has happened to Sutton's past, because they could gain athletic achievement under him. ETA: And I'm not saying that's wrong, it's pretty much a personal decision that each has to face.

I dont think any country makes coaches be certified, whether working with kids or not. I know of several coaches in my area (Raleigh) that work with and hold kid triathlon camps/races that arent certified with anyone (nor will they ever be).


----

In Australia you need a "Blue Card" which is a government issued card allowing a person to work with children across the board.They do all the background checks and if you don't pass those then no Blue Card and no working with kids..

www.ccypcg.qld.gov.au/bluecard/index.html

---


(This post was edited by Ultra-tri-guy on Jan 11, 13 20:51)


MDD1997

Jan 11, 13 21:10

Post #139 of 390 (3915 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [zoom] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Along a similar line...

How do we feel about Roman Polanski? And actors who have worked with him? And directors who give him public credit?

Cuts out a lot of movies to watch while riding indoors...


Nick Mallett

Jan 11, 13 21:21

Post #140 of 390 (3904 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [MDD1997] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

MDD1997 wrote:
Along a similar line...

How do we feel about Roman Polanski? And actors who have worked with him? And directors who give him public credit?

Cuts out a lot of movies to watch while riding indoors...


--------

How do we feel about the Catholic Church and everyone who still attends knowing of the child molestation that is prevalent among the priests?

How do we feel about soldiers who rape and kill women and children and those who still support them?

We could have quite a list that will include all of us in one way or another..

---


(This post was edited by Ultra-tri-guy on Jan 11, 13 21:52)


bcagle25

Jan 11, 13 21:23

Post #141 of 390 (3902 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Man, I start a thread on an interesting topic and what I think was a very brave venture for an elite AG'er and look how this thread turns! Back to my original post and point....lol
_________________________________________________

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realAlbertan

Jan 11, 13 23:23

Post #142 of 390 (3849 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [bcagle25] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Mention Sutton and the baggage comes with it. Don't want the baggage, don't bring him up.
___________________________________________
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ironpsych

Jan 11, 13 23:45

Post #143 of 390 (3837 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

 
"To Ironpsych, it might be unfair to just pick on Brandon here as he is one of many athletes and is kind enough to actually come here to ST and post on many topics. Many pro athletes much more prominent than him have entrusted their development as adult professionals to Sutton. We can name Caroline Steffen and Chrissie Wellington among that top tier. Going back a decade Siri Lindley and Loretta Harrop (if I recall correctly). Do all criminals in society deserve a second chance to reform themselves? I think the answer is yes. "

I actually don't have a problem with people who are coached by Sutton. People are adults and can choose whom they want to associate with. I was responding to Marsh's post which seemed very "wishy washy" about Sutton's past behavior.

"I don't know how I feel about him", etc. While at the same time extolling his virtues as a coach and seeming to tacitly defend/minimize his past activity. Although he did consider it a crime. This is what I was responding to.

I am all about bringing some balance to threads that have historically been black and white. Although have a more emotional connection to this thread which may have influenced my reply to Brandon.

But compare his post to Jordan's post in which he clearly stated his distaste for Sutton's past behavior. Although, then thinks he's the most wonderful coach in triathlon (my wording). Unclear, where that sentiment comes from. I am now wondering how I am going to feel when I see HIS results. I hope (pray?) that he will be able to come up with a good defense.

Again, I do not have a problem with TBB members per se, but if you sign up for that then you have to know that you will catch flack. And Brandon's noodle handshake of a post was very disappointing. And when you make your living from sponsors and coaching dollars you either need to be very clear where you stand on controversial issues or not say anything. Strictly from a PR point of view. I think he did more harm to his reputation than good. That was the gist of my (attempt to be funny) post. I have a pro as a coach and if he came on line supporting things I thought where B.S. Then... no more dineros from me.

And from a general PR standpoint (Jordan did a much better job than Brandon) you do not want to be associated with defending a child molester. Bad for your sponsor, bad for coaching people. Jordan may have fallen into this as well but... he's a much more successful athlete than Brandon and people may give him more wiggle room. No offense Brandon.

Which brings me to my next point. The only reason that Sutton is still coaching is because he is very good. A small town swimming coach who bangs a 14 y.o... Prison. No coaching ever again. Pariah in the regional and state world.

Successful people get more of a pass than "regular" people. Which allowed Sandusky to continue to operate for so many more years (absolutely not comparing. Apples and Oranges)

To expand this conversation to a much broader platform. I think that the posters on this thread who seem to "gloss over" Sutton's "indiscretion" with the "consensual" attitude are just continuing an undercurrent of misogyny that (although has improved) is still rampant in our society (and Australia).

Imagine if Sutton was gay. Nothing wrong with that. And then imagine if he had molested a 14 y.o. gay male. Imagine if he had been prosecuted for molesting a 14 y.o. male during "consensual" sex. Do you think he would be coaching at all? Likely not. Or imagine if a 27 y.o. female coach had "consensual" sex with a 14 y.o. boy. Do you think that she would be coaching? Don't think so.

But it happened to a 14 y.o. "Lolita" who seduced a 27 y.o. male coach. Of course she got what she wanted. The "Red Dress" defense.

"Oh, that..." Let's move on. He's a great guy. Done a lot for the sport. Why dwell on the past?"

Vs. "I can't believe he raped that little boy. He was only what? 14. What a horrible person. I hope he never coaches again. "

25% of American women have been molested as children. Not necessarily penetrated and raped but have had an adult male touch them inappropriately or "more". When we overlook or trivialize their experience we contribute to the the perpetual cycle of abuse.

Sutton did what lots of Uncles and Fathers and Grandfathers have done. Yet we somehow we think that because he is "contributing" and is full of "wisdom" about triathlon that this should be overlooked.

"My grandfather only molested my once. He's a great guy!"

Would we overlook the lawyer who screwed his 14 y.o. daughter (only once) because he is a damn good lawyer? I don't think so. Maybe?

I have a very personal connection to this topic. Not only do I deal with this sort of stuff on a routine basis as a professional but I was also faced with a similar situation.

When I was 23 and working at a company, one of the bosses daughters interned over the summer to earn a little extra $$. Somehow she got hooked up with someone in our circle and started hanging out with us. It was kinda cute, we would by her drinks and have fun, etc. As the summer went on, her and I started flirting (innocently) and spent some time alone. One night we all went out and got loaded and somehow she wound up back at my place. She was very cute (and from my point of view open to "persuasion") and I definitely had some thoughts about what might transpire. We both slept in my bed and... nothing happened.

Why? Because even as a drunk 23 y.o. I knew that a 16 y.o. female was an "inappropriate" sexual partner!!!!!!!!

Now does that make me a better man than Sutton? I don't know. But what I do know is that it didn't happen.

My wife, when discussing this topic, simply said... "What 27 y.o. doesn't have other opportunities? He must be a weirdo if he couldn't hook up with someone his own age." She's not an athlete (just a very understanding triathlete spouse). But I thought that made a lot of sense.

Jordan, you have used the word "forgive" in your posts about Sutton. But you can never "forgive" but people do "overlook", which is what athletes that work with Sutton do. They overlook his past to further their careers. That's business and that's the world. And I'm O.K. with that.

But just like the Grandpa who sullied his 14 y.o. Granddaughter, Sutton should never be "forgiven". If people want to work with him then they need to take the knocks and not get all butt hurt when people come after them.

And from a PR stand point. Do not ever defend a child molester!!!! How many potential clients have you guys lost? (Personally, NOW, I would never sign up with you or Brandon). You have made your case and have hopefully weighed the outcomes of your support for Sutton. That's fine. You are professionals who make decisions based on your convictions. I respect that.

But I wonder how many people are going to respond to this emotionally laden topic with phone calls to your sponsors?

LA postings are very different. But child molester threads. Stay away!!!!

And I can't but wonder what its like for his female athletes to look up at him from the pool and not think "If I was 14 would he want to be with me"?


ironpsych

Jan 12, 13 0:07

Post #144 of 390 (3827 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

 
"On balance I think he has done more good than harm on earth."

I find this hard to believe. Wow!

An adult man sexually molests a 14 y.o. girl.

And then coaches a bunch of triathletes to championships. So "He is alright in my book." Thumbs up!

Um, I hate to say this but TravisT may be right. You are one fucked up individual.

Do you have Asperger's by any chance? That would explain a lot of things.

Dude. I'm at a loss for words. Although, I really want to call you a bitch. But I'm not completely sure why.

Damn.


pran

Jan 12, 13 2:06

Post #145 of 390 (3794 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [TravisT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Quote:
f you somehow feel that LA's actions are worse then child molestation, and that is what it was despite some of the idiots who want to shade it grey on here, thenI have some serious issues with where you draw the line on right and wrong. Sure LA doped, he broke rules, probably caused some pain and suffering in the lives of others but for me that doesn't reach the level of what Sutton did.
x2

Coaches needs to be put on some kind of list blocking them for working with kids ever again. No second chances to do wrong again.


dreaming~big

Jan 12, 13 2:26

Post #146 of 390 (3782 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [pran] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I don't know why there is even room for discussion here. The scumbag raped a child repeatedly over years. End of story.

~~ kate


TravisT

Jan 12, 13 4:36

Post #147 of 390 (3726 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ironpsych] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

ironpsych wrote:

"On balance I think he has done more good than harm on earth."

I find this hard to believe. Wow!

An adult man sexually molests a 14 y.o. girl.

And then coaches a bunch of triathletes to championships. So "He is alright in my book." Thumbs up!

Um, I hate to say this but TravisT may be right. You are one fucked up individual.

Do you have Asperger's by any chance? That would explain a lot of things.

Dude. I'm at a loss for words. Although, I really want to call you a bitch. But I'm not completely sure why.

Damn.

Just to add to the already disturbing things this guy writes, he is a triathlon "coach" and has a daughter.
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Mad Jee

Jan 12, 13 5:15

Post #148 of 390 (3700 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I could have picked a better politics analogy, certainly. That was just the first that came to mind. We can dismiss it or move it. Whatever...


I have no idea why you felt it was even remotely appropriate or comparable to make an analogy between campaign finance violations and sexual assault of a minor.

Pursuant to your cop question. If the guy is banned from LAPD for excessive force, am I okay with him joining the NYPD as a clerk? I dunno. I'm not saying that's a direct analogy, since Sutton is in a very similar role, except for not coaching minors.

Again, why are you choosing to make analogies that are not analogous? You even said, "I'm not saying that's a direct analogy", so then why are you making it? Sutton violated the trust of his position and is now maintaining that same position just before a different group. Let's make this analogy as simple as possible, let's say our LAPD cop sexually assaulted a minor during the course of an investigation, should be allowed to transfer to the NYPD as long as he doesn't work on any cases involving children?

- should he banned from coaching minors?

I think everyone agrees the answer here is yes.

- should he banned from coaching entirely?

I think yes, you seem to think no. He violated the trust of his position, he doesn't get to keep that position just because it's before a different audience.

- how do we define what it means to be a coach?


Here's where you have me saying, "WTF?" This seems pretty simple and it's seems like you are only making it difficult in order to make it seem like it would be hard to ban Sutton. If the sport doesn't force coaches to register and have a concrete definition of what they do, I think it would be pretty simple for a representative group of athletes, coaches and others to define this. You are very clear on who your coach is and who is not your coach, so you want to apply shades of gray to Sutton but seem not to have them with regards to your own coaching relationship.

I certainly don't mean that we should do nothing. Let's take Milken, as an example. He's banned by the SEC from "any involvement in the securities industry." Now, does that mean he can't offer advice to someone on what stocks to buy? To sell?


Sure, I'll concede we can't monitor advice Milken or Sutton give through conversations with friends or acquaintances, but we can ban them from acting in a professional capacity. The SEC has managed to do it with Milken, and I believe at least one national federation has done it with Sutton, I don't know why you are pretending it would be so hard for others to do the same.

That's part of my problem with bans, in general, of any kind. Where do you draw the line? I actually think this is a more interesting discussion in a lot of ways than even whether or not someone should be banned. What does a ban really mean? What if an athlete asks Sutton for advice over email? Is that coaching?


I don't know how I can make this clearer to you, I wish I saw it as being more complex so I could attempt to describe it differently. The fact that it seems so simple to me leaves me lacking another way to describe it to you. How does Lance's ban work? "What does a ban really man?" It means he's not allowed to race professionally, Lance can ride his bike and race his buddies to the stop sign, but he can't race professionally. I think banning Sutton from coaching could be similarly straightforward.

I don't see why my stance is so "WTF." I'm saying, "okay, let's talk about what you believe should be done. How does that work?"

Athletes found working with him in a professional capacity are sanctioned. Pretty simple and I think it would be very effective, do you disagree? You have me saying "WTF?" because you're acting like this would be hard and I think it is stunningly simple.

I don't see why it's so absurd in your opinion that I think Brett should be allowed to coach both because I think he is not coaching minors, and because he admitted wrongdoing and is working - in my opinion anyway - to redeem himself, and because trying to actually enact a ban on something like coaching is too nebulous to be meaningful. My opinion is the result of all of those things. Why should it be the result of just one?


Well, I guess we just have to agree to have a fundamental disagreement here which certainly changes my opinion of how I'll view what I read or hear coming from you in the future. I understand what you said earlier in the thread about second chances, shades of gray, and your perspective having changed since your accident. I'll take the other view, there are enough smart, interesting, and valuable things to learn from more people than I have time to read or listen to. Basically, there is more valuable content than I have time to consume, I don't need to add to that with content from someone with a history such as Sutton.


Portside Athletics Blog


caf0

Jan 12, 13 6:33

Post #149 of 390 (3649 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [In reply to] Quote | Reply


I'm with you, it doesn't seem complicated were there a will. There is precedence in USA sports for coaches to receive lifetime bans based on the same type offense. How many athletes would want to take the PR hit of using a coach banned for child molestation, particularly if they risk sanctions themselves?

USA Swimming has banned 46 (as of 2010) coaches for life, most for sexual misconduct: http://sports.espn.go.com/...ews/story?id=5220940

USA Track and Field has banned coaches for sexual offenses against minors.

USA Triathlon has rules in place that might also be used, although I think it would be far better if they created new language to specifically address the issue:

3.8 Acts Warranting Suspension.
j. Any act which disgraces or brings discredit to the sport of triathlon.

3.12 Acts of Agents.
The conduct of any agent acting with apparent authority on behalf of a participant shall constitute grounds for penalizing such participant if such agent's conduct violates any of these Rules.



Hydrosloth

Jan 12, 13 6:40

Post #150 of 390 (3639 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Yknot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

you wrote

"it was a failure of morality"

ok

a temporary one that deserves forgiveness, or a seminal character flaw that deserves eternal damnation?

just one or the other - there IS no grey area

Is that parade on yet?


Fleck

Jan 12, 13 7:00

Post #151 of 390 (4665 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [DaveyHoy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Sutton's right - let the kids play. They'll play with joy and imagination which is it's own worthwhile result. Feeling the beauty of the game is something that won't happen in over structured practice sessions at early ages

It's my view that we have sucked the life, the elation and joy out of kids sports. I've been a passive side-line observer myself the last few years, as my son has worked his way through and I have coupled that with my own experience a generation ago.

What is astonishing is that in Canada, we have this absolute frenzy of organized kids sports that starts up for middle and upper middle class kids( that right there is saying something), at around ages 6 - 7. They progress though house-league and rep/club programs in various sports. What is startling is the attrition rates along the way, to the point that when you reach the late teen years the two end products are:

1. If you talk to high performance national team level coaches in many sports they tell you that one of the problems is very small talent pools to pick from

2. Statistical evidence that by-and-large most teenagers by this age, have almost zero physical activity in their days/weeks.

So what was that frenzy of activity at an earlier age for? We got really nothing out of it!




Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog


ZingUK

Jan 12, 13 7:18

Post #152 of 390 (4647 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Mad Jee wrote:
Pursuant to your cop question. If the guy is banned from LAPD for excessive force, am I okay with him joining the NYPD as a clerk? I dunno. I'm not saying that's a direct analogy, since Sutton is in a very similar role, except for not coaching minors.

Again, why are you choosing to make analogies that are not analogous? You even said, "I'm not saying that's a direct analogy", so then why are you making it? Sutton violated the trust of his position and is now maintaining that same position just before a different group. Let's make this analogy as simple as possible, let's say our LAPD cop sexually assaulted a minor during the course of an investigation, should be allowed to transfer to the NYPD as long as he doesn't work on any cases involving children?

- should he banned from coaching minors?

I think everyone agrees the answer here is yes.

- should he banned from coaching entirely?

I think yes, you seem to think no. He violated the trust of his position, he doesn't get to keep that position just because it's before a different audience.

I think you and many are missing the point here even although many are pointing it out then in some sense arguing against themselves. What Sutton was guilty of was betraying a position of trust over a minor and he should never be allowed to do that again and as such should never be allowed to work with minors, eg school teacher, scout leader, peadatric nurse etc. The actual job function he did at the time in some ways is academic, it was merely a route that gave him access to the underage girl. For me I have no issue with him coaching adults who are aware of his past, that is their choice to work with him and they are certainly not vulnerable.

On the issue of the seriousness of the crime and redemption (and yes I do believe it was of the utmost serious nature) I will use another analogy. Would you view a 20 year old who stole a Hershy bar (and please I'm not comparing rape with stealing a hershy bar just making a point of range of crime) with a sophisticate bank robber and think they should get the same punishment? The law in civilised societies doesn't think so and quite rightly to. What happened to the poor girl in India recently with rape and murder is degrees more heinous than what Sutton did and the law will see it that way as well and hopefully the perpetrators will get due punishment. Again I'm in no way defending Sutton but he was punished as the law in a civilised democratic society saw fit and the focus of any decent society should be rehabilitation of offenders so they never re-offend and, at least in Sutton's case, that seems to have been successful. He committed a horrible crime, was punished and will carry the stigma for the rest of his life but he is trying to get on with his life as best he can without being in a position to do the same again.

In reply to Jordan, as so often on this board people get slaughtered for certain statements. It appears over the last few years that sadly America has become incredibly polarised (abortion, gun control, political affiliation etc) and there is no room for shades of grey or compromise. Unfortunately your views have been victim of this polarisation as with so many conversations on this forum which in many instances just makes it an unpleasant place to visit. Whether I agree or disagree with your views (and I'm a bit of both) I will at least consider them and respect your views and I understand you have it in you to give someone a second chance. Everyone can make a mistake in life, heaven help us if the world tunred it's back on us completely and people refused to forgive. Note to the flamers, I'm saying forgive NOT forget, two very different things.


toreishi

Jan 12, 13 7:29

Post #153 of 390 (4641 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ironpsych] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Inherent to the concept of consent is understanding the impact and implications of the act to which you are consenting.
Legal or not (always a handy excuse), NO 14 yo girl can reasonably consent to such an act with a person whom she (assuming) admires, respects , wishes to please and , to some degree, fears.
As a female, I truly believe that there is never, ever any excuse, reasoning or justification for such an act as was perpetrated upon this child.

And to the poster who attempted to minimize the impact by saying that the victim (not a word I often use) is now married and successful : Shame on you.


AlwaysCurious

Jan 12, 13 9:08

Post #154 of 390 (4574 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Except that he still coaches minors. It's right on the TBB website. Here's a picture of him with the Philippines team.


The girl behind him is 16. Two of the boys are 17. The President of the team describes it here: "We are very pleased to have top foreign athletes like Caroline Steefen, Ali Fitch, Matt O'Halloran and David Dellow in Alaska teamTBB. But we also want to augment this team with promising young Filipino athletes who will hopefully be able to represent the country at international competitions in the near future. Obviously having a top caliber coach in Brett Sutton helps make this goal a real possibility."

In fact, kids' projects seems to be a major focus of Team TBB, as shown on their "Our Activities" page.

In Brazil, "Together with Cali Amaral, president of the Association of Southeast Triathlon (ASTRI) in Brazil, and world renowned triathlon coach Brett Sutton, teamTBB is working to make a real difference in the lives of underprivileged youths in this country through the sport of triathlon." This page describes how one of their members "who not too many years ago was just another kid helped by a social project, then discovered by a triathlon coach at the tender age of 15."

Here's where Brett talks about his involvement, and going to "this little school type building and to 30 or so smiling little kids running around having a great time."

In short, he both coaches minors and has worked his way into a position of power and authority over them.

To those who say it's fine for pro triathletes to be coached by him, because they're adults and "know what they're getting into and can look after themselves"...it appears that some of the money these pros pay goes toward giving him access to minors in an "official" capacity. Are you okay with that?


Mad Jee

Jan 12, 13 9:13

Post #155 of 390 (4565 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [AlwaysCurious] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Well there we go.

Jordan, others, care to comment?

Sutton got exactly what he wanted from Jordan, a well respected figure in the sport with an especially large voice due to his role here with Slowtwitch coming out in support of him. Unfortunately, it has just left me to support Jordan less, not Sutton any more..


Portside Athletics Blog


TravisT

Jan 12, 13 9:21

Post #156 of 390 (4550 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Wow. How anybody can defend the guy after seeing that is beyond me. He keeps right on coaching and interacting with minors like he never did anything. The door is open for Jordan and the others who try the justify this guy's involvement in the sport to step back but I doubt they will do it.
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jonnyo

Jan 12, 13 9:24

Post #157 of 390 (4541 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

i been out of the TBB Team after 2009. here's what i know

of the picture posted of team TBB alaska, brett dosnt coach the Filipino. They are part of a developpement team with the a philippine coach but like the brazil team and others, it s other local coach that are responsable for those team.

for the 4 months i was in the philipines, the local athlete werent allowed at our session, only the adulte pro team is supervised by Brett. I do not know if it as chance since but i douth it as. the pro team take all the time of brett so developpement coach do the work with others. so in resume, we had about no contact with those developpement team other than a few pictures photo shoot for promotion.

i have work with brett sutton for 1 year, learn a lot from him, he always as been a gentlemen with everyone around me and on the team. he was hard as a coach but i never had any red flag on his behavior during my time with the team.

i have dicuss the pass with him at a few occassion, he never ran away from talking about it. what i saw is someone that was trying to do good from a very bad pass. That is all i can judge, i can only take into account what i see and what i know.

my time with brett was very positive and i have learn a lot even if it didnt happen to be the most positive impact on my racing performance at the time.

.

Jonathan Caron
JonnyO Coaching


Mad Jee

Jan 12, 13 9:30

Post #158 of 390 (4519 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [jonnyo] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

As I said earlier in the thread, your blog was one I used to follow which I stopped following after you went to work with Team TBB.

I feel the same way about Brandon Marsh after reading his comments here, he essentially said that he went to train under Brett and Team TBB because it was "easy" for him, it checked all the boxes of coaching, sponsorship, etc. So he was willing to work with someone convicted of sexual assault against a minor because it happened to be convenient for him. That's not something I can respect.


Portside Athletics Blog


TravisT

Jan 12, 13 9:32

Post #159 of 390 (4515 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [jonnyo] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

So the multiple quotes in the above post about him still working with minor's are lies?
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jonnyo

Jan 12, 13 9:38

Post #160 of 390 (4501 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [TravisT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I dont know, if you read my replie, i said that i m sharing what i saw and what i witness from the 2009 edition team. We had all those teams....some of the same athlete and philipino. and none of them were part of our training group.

Brett was working with a team of professional athlete and trying to get them to make a living out of this sport. While Team TBB and developpement program was big, very few were actually working with brett. I douth it as chance since but i might be wrong.

I have done so much research about brett and interview him, the manage and about 15+ of his ex athletes befoe joining in 2009. it was a major concern of mine. in the end, i had very positive comments from everyoone about him so i decided that i would go there as a adult and see for myself. That s all i can judge on.

I do beleive someone should be given a chance in life. A chance to go own with his life, pay the price of his crime and try to do good. I dont think he deserve a second chance to work with kids as a coach. but what i saw at tbb was a coach working with adult only. so i was in peice with that and the way he behavied with everyone around the team.

not here to defend him... i m here to share my experience.

Jonathan Caron
JonnyO Coaching


jonnyo

Jan 12, 13 9:41

Post #161 of 390 (4497 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

yeah, i understand your reaction. IT wasnt a easy call for me at the time. And it was a decision that i have taken very seriously and reseached a long time. At the end, i was in peice with it as i had done my homework and saw what i saw.

I dont know if things as changed now? if brett was working with kids now, i would not join the team. but whne i was part of it.... it was adult only and my impression is that it is still the case. Brett is the leader of team tbb but he dosnt coach everyone under the team unberealla.....

.

Jonathan Caron
JonnyO Coaching


Joe C.

Jan 12, 13 10:00

Post #162 of 390 (4473 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [toreishi] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

toreishi wrote:
Inherent to the concept of consent is understanding the impact and implications of the act to which you are consenting.
Legal or not (always a handy excuse), NO 14 yo girl can reasonably consent to such an act with a person whom she (assuming) admires, respects , wishes to please and , to some degree, fears.
As a female, I truly believe that there is never, ever any excuse, reasoning or justification for such an act as was perpetrated upon this child.

And to the poster who attempted to minimize the impact by saying that the victim (not a word I often use) is now married and successful : Shame on you.

So what Sutton did was criminal. That seems fairly black and white. What is also black and white to me is that a genuinely remorseful person should be able to rehabilitate himself over time and given a second chance. That idea seems to be under attack in this thread and it disturbs me to no end. Shit, the average alchoholic can do hard-core damage to lot's of people, and when he sobers up he's cool, get's to drive, continue his career, as long as he stays off the bottle.

It does makes sense that Sutton should never get to coach a minor again (i.e give up the bottle), however pure is heart and actions might be now. But if I were a pro that's one person I'd try to get for a coach, and I'd be proud of the association. He pulled himself out of a low, low place.

-------
Joe



BDoughtie

Jan 12, 13 10:03

Post #163 of 390 (4462 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [jonnyo] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

You can reason/justify it in any way but for him to be even in contact with minors within the sport, to me is wrong. So you can say he doesn't "coach" them 3 posts after a picture of him with juniors, is odd.
------------------
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USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


TravisT

Jan 12, 13 10:05

Post #164 of 390 (4457 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Joe C.] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Joe C. wrote:
toreishi wrote:
Inherent to the concept of consent is understanding the impact and implications of the act to which you are consenting.
Legal or not (always a handy excuse), NO 14 yo girl can reasonably consent to such an act with a person whom she (assuming) admires, respects , wishes to please and , to some degree, fears.
As a female, I truly believe that there is never, ever any excuse, reasoning or justification for such an act as was perpetrated upon this child.

And to the poster who attempted to minimize the impact by saying that the victim (not a word I often use) is now married and successful : Shame on you.


So what Sutton did was criminal. That seems fairly black and white. What is also black and white to me is that a genuinely remorseful person should be able to rehabilitate himself over time and given a second chance. That idea seems to be under attack in this thread and it disturbs me to no end. Shit, the average alchoholic can do hard-core damage to lot's of people, and when he sobers up he's cool, get's to drive, continue his career, as long as he stays off the bottle.

It does makes sense that Sutton should never get to coach a minor again (i.e give up the bottle), however pure is heart and actions might be now. But if I were a pro that's one person I'd try to get for a coach, and I'd be proud of the association. He pulled himself out of a low, low place.

The fact that he is still associating with minors let alone coaching them completely invalidates everything you just wrote.
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jonnyo

Jan 12, 13 10:10

Post #165 of 390 (4447 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

So what will you do about it? will you just cry about it and type on your keyboard or fly out there and tell him you think he should not be around minor?????

because i took the second option....... when there and told him face to face, and i m happy of what i saw in 2009. he was doing the right thing.


.

Jonathan Caron
JonnyO Coaching


BDoughtie

Jan 12, 13 10:17

Post #166 of 390 (4430 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [jonnyo] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I will just say that it's an unfortunate situation, when we have stuff like this. And then for you to seemingly excuse/justify it just as unfortunate. We should all hope, an situation like that doesn't ever occur. In his situation, I'm surprised he is an an setting that puts him in contact with minors (ie, an photo like that was just posted.

Eta: I don't have the financial means to do anything more than discuss this on here. But when talk about the degree of his coaching minors ( or lack of "coaching" minors) and then pops up a picture of him with a minor in a coaching related picture, well seems odd. That is the part that should be questioned and hopefully not allowed.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


(This post was edited by BDoughtie on Jan 12, 13 10:26)


Mad Jee

Jan 12, 13 10:23

Post #167 of 390 (4408 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [jonnyo] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'll continue to do what I have done up until now, that is, make a point to not follow athletes associated with him, such as yourself, and make every effort to purchase products made by companies that sponsor those athletes.


Portside Athletics Blog


caf0

Jan 12, 13 10:35

Post #168 of 390 (4388 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [AlwaysCurious] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Your discovery should not be buried in this thread, but rather a new thread should be started.
Everyone will be alerted, and maybe facts will emerge.
A convicted child molester is again coaching minors?!


Rappstar

Jan 12, 13 10:54

Post #169 of 390 (4365 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I don't have any issue with you taking the moral high ground, but when you start to take the intellectual high ground and act like I'm an idiot, then I have problems. You are correct that one federation - Australia - has banned him from coaching; the fact that you only THINK that is the case, instead of being certain, makes me wonder why you are so adamant in your stance. You could at least be bothered to read up on the facts. But the fact that he is banned from coaching by Australia hasn't stopped him from coaching Australian athletes to success at all levels of the sport since the ban. So...

The real analogy is whether or not a LAPD officer who is fired for excessive force can be banned from working for Blackwater as a private security guard in Singapore.

The real analogy is whether or not a school shooting in the US can affect gun control laws in Switzerland.

Now, I don't think that's a particularly interesting discussion to have, because the answers are obvious.

Yes, I am very clear about who and who is not my coach, but I'm actually - in that regard - much more the exception than the rule among pro triathletes. Macca - he "consults" with Darren Smith, but Darren isn't his coach. Crowie - he "consults" with Mat Steinmetz, but Mat isn't his coach. The list of athletes who have "advisors" and "consultants" - but who would say they are self-coached - is VERY long. My "shades of grey" aren't hypotheticals. They are a reflection of the very real state of triathlon.

And as to your "it should be simple to get a group to define..." you clearly don't work in a bureaucracy. Our sport can't even come up with a reasonably cohesive or consistent definition of what a pro athlete is, and you think it'd be simple to get a committee to define what a coach is? You're delusional.

Furthermore, even if that was a realistic possibility, banning a coach is not at all like banning an athlete, per your Lance example. Lance can't grab a timing chip and go from start to finish. Cut-and-dry. But you keep evading the basic question I have of how do you define coaching. How would you define "working in a professional capacity?" You still haven't done that. You've just passed it off as something that someone else should be able to define. If it's so easy, why can't you define it?

And as for your means of enforcement, I definitely have a problem there. You punish the athletes as a result of working with him? Really? Especially when you've refused to define in practical terms what, specifically, they'd be punished for. Email? On-site coaching? Phone? What?

As to your last comment, about agreeing to disagree, I can respect that there is certainly more good stuff in the world than we can consume, so if you want to weed some out because you don't agree with Sutton's past, that's your prerogative, and I respect that. I'm sorry that our disagreement changes your feelings about what I have to say, but I can respect that as well.

Lastly, because it was certainly news to me, I will say that I don't condone Brett's working with juniors. I hope Alex Bok - owner of TBB - might chime in to let us know the details. As Jonnyo said, do we know that he's actually working directly with them? He's the head coach of Team TBB, but that doesn't mean that he's actually directly involved in the day-to-day. Is he's simply writing a training plan that other coaches execute? Is he under constant supervision when he's with minors? None of those things would make me okay with the decision, but they at least might make me understand how someone else was. But the short answer is definitely that I do not think Brett should be working with minors/juniors. I think he lost that right.


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AndrewPhx

Jan 12, 13 11:16

Post #170 of 390 (4326 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I have always thought it odd that Switzerland, a country with very strict immigration and residency laws, would allow someone with his record to live and work in the country. I doubt the US or Canada would give him a work isa. Anybody know anything about that?


Mad Jee

Jan 12, 13 11:19

Post #171 of 390 (4316 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I don't have any issue with you taking the moral high ground, but when you start to take the intellectual high ground and act like I'm an idiot, then I have problems.


I never said, nor did I mean to imply, that you were an idiot. So I will apologize for whatever gave you that impression, I have enough respect for you to not need to insult you just because we disagree.

You are correct that one federation - Australia - has banned him from coaching; the fact that you only THINK that is the case, instead of being certain, makes me wonder why you are so adamant in your stance. You could at least be bothered to read up on the facts.

I said I "thought" that because I wasn't sure. I prefer not to state things assuredly that I am not sure of. As to why I didn't look it up, it's because that aspect of this conversation isn't important to me. I can be adamant in my stance whether or not he was actually banned by a national federation, I don't need an official sanction to make up MY mind. I was just using as a counter-point to your argument that it would be tough to do, because I was relatively sure it had been done.

The real analogy is whether or not a school shooting in the US can affect gun control laws in Switzerland.

No, again that is not an appropriate analogy. There is no world governing body that controls guns laws that could take that step. However, there is the International Triathlon Union, and the World Triathlon Corporation, two international bodies that could take a single step to ban him from coaching athletes that compete in those federations.

And as to your "it should be simple to get a group to define..." you clearly don't work in a bureaucracy.

Now who is taking the intellectual high ground and treating the other like they are an idiot? I work for the federal government, so if you think I am unaware of the workings of a bureaucracy you're wrong.

Our sport can't even come up with a reasonably cohesive or consistent definition of what a pro athlete is, and you think it'd be simple to get a committee to define what a coach is? You're delusional.

That says more about the professionalism, or lack thereof, in triathlon, than it does about me or my delusions.

And as for your means of enforcement, I definitely have a problem there. You punish the athletes as a result of working with him? Really?

Yes, really. You want to eliminate drugs? Eliminate the demand. If there is a demand, there will always be a supply. Same is true here, you want to eliminate the supply of those convicted of sexually molesting a minor as triathlon coaches? Then make demanding the services of that person something no athlete will consider.


I'll say what I said elsewhere in this thread. I think Sutton is getting exactly what he wants from you, a well respected person in the sport who has an especially loud voice because of his association with the largest triathlon site on the internet coming to his defense. I am just not sure if you're getting what you want.


Portside Athletics Blog


Mad Jee

Jan 12, 13 11:30

Post #172 of 390 (4289 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I just reread my previous post and if it was this line "I don't know how I can make this clearer to you, I wish I saw it as being more complex so I could attempt to describe it differently. The fact that it seems so simple to me leaves me lacking another way to describe it to you." that left you feeling insulted, I apologize.

I could see how it could it could come across that way. I just meant to express frustration that we couldn't make each other understand the other's point of view. I was implying that this probably seemed straightforward and simple to you, and that it seemed that same to me, but that we couldn't make the other understand. Basically that we were communicating on different wave lengths, not that you were some sort of simpleton.


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Rappstar

Jan 12, 13 11:50

Post #173 of 390 (4258 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Technically, a ban by the ITU should be honored by WTC, so you shouldn't need both. But the ITU already enacted such a ban - for three years. So in that sense, the governing body handed down that sentence, and he served his time. However, it's not clear that he was actually prevented from coaching in any meaningful way. He was persona non grata at races - and was actually escorted out of some races - during that period, but the ITU chose not to use their means of enforcement as a punishment of the athletes. Now, you can choose to disagree with that (and it seems clear that you do), but the ITU both chose to sanction him for a set time period - not for life - and also to direct the punishment at him, not at the athletes.

I also would say that there is indeed a world governing body that could enact such legislation - the UN. Now, I happen to think that the UN is pretty much a joke, and that they could never actually enact anything with any real teeth, so perhaps it's meaningless. Alternatively, you could suggest that NATO countries abide by a set of gun import/export laws, since the trafficking and ownership of arms has consequences if NATO decides to intervene in a country. Unfortunately, it seems most often we seem to be sending arms into countries as opposed to keeping them out... But I disagree that it couldn't be done. If Americans were as interested in gun control as the Australians were after the tragic school shooting there in '96, I am certain that the US government would find a way to influence the manufacture and import/export of weapons globally.

You are correct that my statement says more about the state of professionalism in triathlon than it does about you. However, I would say that doesn't mean you aren't delusional. I just means that triathlon is ridiculously unprofessional whereas I'd say you are only somewhat delusional.

As far as your employer, according to LinkedIn, you work for the bureau of labor statistics as an economist. I get where more of your arguments are coming from - punish the demand and the supply disappears, for instance - but I am truly shocked that, as an economist in today's society, you genuinely believe that a bureaucracy can be ever as functional as you want the ITU to be in this case.

On to a more interesting question, how would you propose eliminate the demand for drugs? I certainly agree that it's been futile to focus on the supply side, but I'm curious what you answer to working on the demand side might be...


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Rappstar

Jan 12, 13 11:52

Post #174 of 390 (4253 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Mad Jee wrote:
I just reread my previous post and if it was this line "I don't know how I can make this clearer to you, I wish I saw it as being more complex so I could attempt to describe it differently. The fact that it seems so simple to me leaves me lacking another way to describe it to you." that left you feeling insulted, I apologize.

I could see how it could it could come across that way. I just meant to express frustration that we couldn't make each other understand the other's point of view. I was implying that this probably seemed straightforward and simple to you, and that it seemed that same to me, but that we couldn't make the other understand. Basically that we were communicating on different wave lengths, not that you were some sort of simpleton.

Thanks. That was indeed what I was interpreting as you implying that I was a simpleton. Appreciate the clarification.


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Barlow

Jan 12, 13 11:52

Post #175 of 390 (4253 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I have read some of Sutton's interviews and find him intriguing enough to follow on twitter. However, in light of his past, when I read the below tweet from him which was posted 2 hrs ago, it makes me feel extremely uncomfortable.

"when away from my girls, down and sinking deeper,always good2 c see keen wide eyed innocence, the first session4 cuzumel elite youth program"


AlwaysCurious

Jan 12, 13 11:53

Post #176 of 390 (4981 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Jordan, I agree that a federation banning all sorts of "grey area" coaching (consulting, email, etc.) is difficult. But Brett Sutton's coaching is as clear cut as it gets. He advertises it on a web page. He publicly brags about his coaching skills. And Slowtwitch writes fawning articles about his team every few years (2008 & 2011).

It would really be quite simple to stop him from coaching. A few dozen individuals--tier 1 and tier 2 pro triathletes--could all publicly state that they won't work with him because he has violated a basic tenet of the sport, and that they refuse to enable his continued access to minors. Peer pressure would do the rest. If it drives him to "underground" coaching by email...so what? He doesn't have access to kids this way.

Look, the Penn State scandal opened a lot of eyes. People in charge "thought" Sandusky was properly supervised around kids--but didn't really want to ask too many questions because they didn't want to rock the boat, and because he and Paterno were "too important to the sport."

I make no accusations about Sutton's current behavior. Regardless, there is no way in hell that he should be working around minors. And there is no way in hell that any self-respecting triathlete should be supporting and enabling that by hiring him as a coach.

Penn State opened a lot of eyes, and caused a lot of us to lose tolerance for the "look the other way" attitude that has pervaded sports for decades. And many of us are saying, "ENOUGH!"

This is a basic moral issue, and the management of Slowtwitch needs to decide what's more important--its backing of an influential triathlon coach, or taking a stand against old-school ways where convicted child molesters get to continue working around children while everyone pretends all is well.


Mad Jee

Jan 12, 13 12:19

Post #177 of 390 (4943 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Technically, a ban by the ITU should be honored by WTC, so you shouldn't need both.

I wasn't aware of the jurisdictional overlap there.

But the ITU already enacted such a ban - for three years. So in that sense, the governing body handed down that sentence, and he served his time. However, it's not clear that he was actually prevented from coaching in any meaningful way. He was persona non grata at races - and was actually escorted out of some races - during that period

So despite your comments earlier in the thread about your interactions with him, do those seem like the behaviors of someone who was actually contrite? Unless I am misunderstanding what you are saying it sounds like he was violating the spirit, if not the letter, of his ban?


As far as your employer, according to LinkedIn, you work for the bureau of labor statistics as an economist. I get where more of your arguments are coming from - punish the demand and the supply disappears, for instance - but I am truly shocked that, as an economist in today's society, you genuinely believe that a bureaucracy can be ever as functional as you want the ITU to be in this case.

We can move the gun control debate to the LR but I will address this. Yes, I am an economist with the BLS, and despite what Jack Welch says, I think we do a pretty good job at the task we are assigned to do. I am aware of the limitations of bureaucracies, but this again is an instance where we are on different wavelengths. "As functional as I want the ITU to be"? You mean define the role of coach? Besides "athlete" I'd assume that coach is the second most numerous profession in the sport, I don't think asking the international governing body to define that position is that big of an ask.

On to a more interesting question, how would you propose eliminate the demand for drugs? I certainly agree that it's been futile to focus on the supply side, but I'm curious what you answer to working on the demand side might be...

Oh boy, approaching LR territory here, but briefly I'll say I guess it depends on what drugs we are talking about. Marijuana? I think the current trend of legalization is a positive development that I certainly support. The cost/benefit to society of legalizing marijuana is a net positive in my opinion as opposed to continuing with current expenditures on enforcement and prosecution as that seems to have been a poor use of societal resources.

As for other drugs, I think demand from drugs and it's role in the drug trade is sort of analogous the mental health in the gun violence debate. For drugs, it certainly starts with education as to the dangers, but beyond that, eliminating that climate that makes someone turn to drugs in the first place. There are many things including mental health, economic conditions and opportunities, socio-economic status, etc., that all contribute there. If it was easy it would have been figure out already...


Portside Athletics Blog


Mad Jee

Jan 12, 13 12:27

Post #178 of 390 (4933 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [AlwaysCurious] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Jordan, I agree that a federation banning all sorts of "grey area" coaching (consulting, email, etc.) is difficult. But Brett Sutton's coaching is as clear cut as it gets. He advertises it on a web page. He publicly brags about his coaching skills. And Slowtwitch writes fawning articles about his team every few years (2008 & 2011).

It would really be quite simple to stop him from coaching. A few dozen individuals--tier 1 and tier 2 pro triathletes--could all publicly state that they won't work with him because he has violated a basic tenet of the sport, and that they refuse to enable his continued access to minors. Peer pressure would do the rest.



x2

Jordan put it on me to define coaching. Most simply, we can use the old definition of pornography, "I know it when I see it."

Can I define coaching? I could try and people could pick it apart. Triathlon is not my profession though so I don't have a vested interest in entering that debate. That said, we certainly know what "coaching" is when it's as clear cut as it is in Sutton's case. Drive him underground and sure, some may still consult with him. But I think the "grey area" that Jordan points out is pretty small, and the black and white aspect would cover the vast majority. If the ITU simply said "Brett Sutton is banned from coaching" and a few athletes stepped up to support the ban as you said, I think the need for a further definition beyond that would be unnecessary.

I know sexual harassment is banned in my workplace. I haven't searched out a definition to find out what I can get away with, I just don't engage in any behavior that may be remotely consider sexually harassing. There is probably a definition out there, but I don't need it to know what I should and shouldn't be doing.


Portside Athletics Blog


TravisT

Jan 12, 13 12:29

Post #179 of 390 (4924 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Barlow] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Barlow wrote:
I have read some of Sutton's interviews and find him intriguing enough to follow on twitter. However, in light of his past, when I read the below tweet from him which was posted 2 hrs ago, it makes me feel extremely uncomfortable.

"when away from my girls, down and sinking deeper,always good2 c see keen wide eyed innocence, the first session4 cuzumel elite youth program"

How much more proof is the head in the sand group going to need that he is still working with kids? I guess people like Jordan can just say they don't agree with it and keep supporting him while thinking that somehow maintains their integrity.
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jonnyo

Jan 12, 13 12:36

Post #180 of 390 (4914 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [TravisT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

i m with you on this, if there is proof.... if he actually is working with kids, i m against it.

When i have work with him, he WAS NOT AT ALL. (2009) and told me he would not.

i m sure a few of the pro in cozumel could pitch in on what s happening out there. i was told TBB was having a rookies camp to get new memeber on the team. but the people i know, are all adult.... for exemple, andrew yoder is there right now on a try-out.

.

Jonathan Caron
JonnyO Coaching


Power13

Jan 12, 13 12:43

Post #181 of 390 (4900 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [AlwaysCurious] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Sorry for the tangent, but some of this is starting to become a little clearer to me....

I had wondered for a while what the Alaska sponsorship was all about. Was it the state tourism board, Alaska Brewing Company, etc.

The picture posted on the previous page finally got me googling a bit....Alaska Milk Company, the largest dairy producer in the Phillipines.

Side note to the tangent - it drives me crazy when sponsors just put logos on jerseys / shorts with no further clarification. It is just wasted PR opportunities, or worse PR for something completely unrelated to the actual sponsor. This is basic marketing and companies fail the test all the time.
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TravisT

Jan 12, 13 12:51

Post #182 of 390 (4879 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [jonnyo] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

If he is still working with kids, and I doubt he just suddenly started, then anybody with a brain should be against it. I don't doubt what you said about what happened wihen you worked with him but he has tried and been barred from working with minors before. If he truely cared about what he had done he would never attempt to be anywhere near another situation that could place him in contact with young athletes. He obviously doesn't care though. It reflects worse and worse on those who continue trying to intellectually argue away what he is and has done.
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Mad Jee

Jan 12, 13 13:22

Post #183 of 390 (4840 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [TravisT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

If he truely cared about what he had done he would never attempt to be anywhere near another situation that could place him in contact with young athletes. He obviously doesn't care though. It reflects worse and worse on those who continue trying to intellectually argue away what he is and has done.

Between this information, and Jordan stating above that he was escorted away from several races during his ban what more information are people looking for that he doesn't care or respect his punishment and the seriousness of what he did, no matter what he might say.


Portside Athletics Blog


TravisT

Jan 12, 13 13:27

Post #184 of 390 (4831 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Someone who is truly contrite does not engage in the behavior he did and continues to. Anything he says to the contrary to make people think otherwise is self serving bullshit to get people to support him. Actions speak.
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ironpsych

Jan 12, 13 13:33

Post #185 of 390 (4817 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

 
"He was persona non grata at races - and was actually escorted out of some races - during that period, but the ITU chose not to use their means of enforcement as a punishment of the athletes."

This is yet another disturbing fact about Sutton.

I think this demonstrates another flaw in his character. Which reinforces my ideas about the man.

He was just convicted of molesting a child and given a sentence by his governing body yet, per your post, REPEATEDLY and willfully violated those sanctions. That doesn't sound much to me like a man who was remorseful and understanding of why he was sanctioned. That sounds like a man who felt his punishment was unjustified. "Screw them, I didn't do anything wrong, I'm going to the race to watch my athletes"

And that leads me to wonder about the sincerity of his "speaking out and warning other coaches" about sexual conduct with teen athletes. I wonder if his warning is coming from a "If you get caught it's a big hassle" mindset rather than a "It is morally reprehensible" mindset.

And the fact that he continues to have contact with youth athletes demonstrates a complete lack of judgement/sensitivity by him and the TBB management. That sort of institutional disregard for the seriousness of his past transgressions is why Penn State administrators are being charged as well as Sandusky.

Sample discussion from TBB management:

"Hey, didn't Brett molest a 14 y.o. girl? Maybe we shouldn't let him have contact with our youth athletes.".

"Naw, he said he was sorry. And he's a really good coach. We'll just keep and eye on him. Where is he at these days?"

"Dunno, somewhere doing a girls youth camp I think. Wanna go get some coffee?"

"Sure"

And the fact that he himself doesn't recuse himself from having contact with youth athletes (which is at least demonstrated by the photo and his tweet) is another strike against his character. I would suppose that a lot of us would know that people would be upset if we (if we had been convicted of child molestation) continued to have contact with children. Sample self talk: "Yeah, I really enjoy coaching kids but I totally get that what I did was really bad and that people will be upset if I continue coaching them. Bummer but I'll just have to stick to adults."

Sutton either doesn't feel that what he did precludes him from working with children (again, to me, demonstrating a lack remorse) or, one could argue, he personally feels that he could never, ever under any circumstance do anything like that again and thus feels comfortable continuing to work with youth athletes.

Either could be the case but in the vernacular of the political pundit world "The optics are very, very bad".

And, unfortunately, this is making me have second thoughts about my tolerance for TBB as an organization and TBB athletes in general. If it is true (not 100% verified but it looks like there is some smoke in the air) that Sutton is again coaching youth athletes then TBB athletes should put pressure on the management to stop this. If not then I would have difficulty understanding their continued work with him. That's just me.


kennyDalglish

Jan 12, 13 13:35

Post #186 of 390 (4811 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [jonnyo] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

surprisingly he did not openly discuss any dodgy things he might be doing with you. Once your wired like that you always are, they don't change. These people are predators.

He got caught left Australia, the leopard does not change his spots, just moves to a different country.

The fact that he's an appalling human does not diminish his ability as a coach, and if you don't mind hanging out with a child molester then he's probably good for you.

Test for all those triathletes forgiving him and understanding, do they forgive and understand all the other scumbags or just Brett because they want the advantage from being coached by him


BDoughtie

Jan 12, 13 13:37

Post #187 of 390 (4799 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

It's "out of sight, out of mind" mentality from what I'm reading. Reading what now several different pro's have said, they got their time with him, believed he was not working with kids and as long as their time with him didn't include minors, all was good, with the acknowledgment that he messed up early in life.

Now what I find intersting is that with most issues, the more you stay in that environment, the harder it is to actually stay away from what you are suppose to stay away from. But I guess when you can nitpick what "coaching" is, well then there is always seemingly an out. I'm shocked that a coach in his position is still allowed juniors in any triathlon related event (whether coaching, sponsorship, team function). That just kinda seems like its a little too close for comfort, and I'm not suggesting anything wrong will/would happen. Just that in this circumstances, it seems like better judgment could occur. But again, I guess you have to define what "coaching" or else that will continue to be an out.
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(This post was edited by BDoughtie on Jan 12, 13 13:39)


Rappstar

Jan 12, 13 14:57

Post #188 of 390 (4715 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Brett seemed/seems to have serious issues with Les McDonald, and I am not clear what the exact wording and stipulations of the ITU sanctions were. (EDIT: added the following ->It's also not entirely clear how much was Les McDonald's personal opposition to Brett and how much was an official ITU position.<-) However, yes, I agree that he certainly violated the spirit of the ban, and - in some cases per appearing at ITU events and being escorted away - even the letter of it. However, that was a decade ago (EDIT for clarity - Brett committed this trangsression 25 years ago, but it only came out ~15yrs ago, which helps if someone is trying to do the math on how he could be 52 now, 27 when it happened.), and I was willing to accept that he may have changed, especially in light of what I heard from athletes who worked directly with him.

What really concerns me is that it definitely appears that he is in fact coaching minors, which I really cannot agree with or support. I have tried to get some direct confirmation, as I do not want to assume the worst. That said, it's hard not to. However, there are some circumstances that I would not absolutely decry. E.g., Brett is the head coach of TBB. TBB has a youth program that Brett thinks is a positive thing. As long as his role in the program is administrative - and not direct involvement with any of the kids - I can sort of see that being okay (like our LAPD cop getting a desk job with the NYPD). In other words, I think, for example, that he should be allowed to write a book, "swim technique for juniors;" I definitely do not think that he should be allowed to show that swim technique to juniors firsthand.

But, as I said, this is definitely the first I've heard of it. And if it's clear that he is working with minors, I do not support that, and will speak with Dan and Herbert to make sure that Slowtwitch doesn't support that, and I will cease to engage with Brett. I certainly won't bury my head in the sand, but I'd like to get some first hand confirmation - not just a 140 character comment and a single news article. I hope that is understandable.


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(This post was edited by Rappstar on Jan 12, 13 16:28)


BDoughtie

Jan 12, 13 15:06

Post #189 of 390 (4707 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

E.g., Brett is the head coach of TBB. TBB has a youth program that Brett thinks is a positive thing. As long as his role in the program is administrative - and not direct involvement with any of the kids - I can sort of see that being okay (like our LAPD cop getting a desk job with the NYPD).

___________

I cant if it puts him in contact with juniors at any point in the coaching/team aspects, and that's already been shown to happen.

ETA: When you get too close to the fire, you are very likely to get burned. From the accounts on here, it already seems to show that Sutton has been put in some situations that have him directly in contact with juniors. Now if you want clarify exactly what he can or cant do, then fair enough, but I just find it very hard to put an coach in an situation where the boundary seems to be ever moving around. X is ok if it deals with juniors by Y isnt because it's too close of contact. That just seems to basically want to self cloudy the waters, more than anything. If someone wants to strike out on their own than fair enough, but to be part of a structured junior program, where it's pretty evident he's already in some capacity interacting with juniors, well seems unfortunate.
------------------
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(This post was edited by BDoughtie on Jan 12, 13 15:26)


styrrell

Jan 12, 13 15:25

Post #190 of 390 (4684 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I've never been a big fan of "appearances". Meaning I care how things are not what they appear to be. But in the case of something like rape of a minor I think appearances also matter. Brett may well be scrupulous in making sure he isn't in contact with minors without adult supervision or arents around, but stuff like the picture of him surrounded by kids, and even him endorsing a kids triathlon team is going to cause concern and questions.

If he wants to support youth triathlon he can donate money to an existing team, there doesn't need to be a Kids Team TBB.
Styrrell


Mad Jee

Jan 12, 13 15:49

Post #191 of 390 (4656 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

That is very understandable, I just hope you'll report back with what you hear, whether you like what you hear or not. I trust that you will and you committment to making sure ST does the same is admirable.

Thanks, apologies again for my sloppy wording earlier.


Portside Athletics Blog


Power13

Jan 12, 13 16:36

Post #192 of 390 (4599 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [styrrell] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

To that end, whether he is officially coaching those kids or not, as is plainly obvious, he is at a minimum doing photo ops with minors. He is also responsible for the funding of that Jr. Team.

That, by itself, puts him in a position if influence and power over those kids.

Flat out wrong. Whether he is directly coaching those minors or not is not the issue. Being in a position if power over them is.
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Rappstar

Jan 12, 13 16:42

Post #193 of 390 (4587 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

It is my understanding that Alex Bok, owner of TBB, is going to reply directly to this thread, so I will hopefully not have to serve as a go-between. I will not reply to this thread again until Alex has had a chance to reply or unless I hear that Alex can't/won't.

I don't expect that Alex's answer will please everyone, regardless of what it is; one thing about which there is definitely no grey is that Brett is like religion and politics (or both) to people. But I would ask that folks at least be respectful. There's been a lot of "guilt by association" in this thread, but hopefully we can at least give Alex a chance to speak without going ad hominem on him simply because he chooses to give Brett a second chance that some (many) on here think he shouldn't have.


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Mad Jee

Jan 12, 13 17:53

Post #194 of 390 (4506 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'll be honest and say I am not optimistic we are going to get the whole story given that Bok has a financial stake in Sutton and Sutton's reputation...we'll see though. You have to recognize the conflict of interest there.

But as you said, let's at least give him a chance.


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styrrell

Jan 12, 13 18:07

Post #195 of 390 (4482 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

This thread makes it sound like their is no grey area, but I think it exists. I really have no issue with adults, who know his history seeking his help. I don't think he should have any coaching or advising, in person, with minors. Primarily for the minors sake but also for his.
Styrrell


BDoughtie

Jan 12, 13 18:16

Post #196 of 390 (4463 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [styrrell] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I think the grey area has allowed him contact with minors and in more than just an "adminstrative" role. But that's just my take on the info that has been provided in this thread from pages 7 and 8. So I guess it goes back to Rapp's discussion about having to define what "coaching" is, and what is or isnt allowed. ETA: Which is why as the other poster said, I'll be curious to the actually explaination they have about Sutton's involvement with their team and juniors, and how they define that involvement.
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(This post was edited by BDoughtie on Jan 12, 13 18:23)


-BrandonMarshTX

Jan 12, 13 18:42

Post #197 of 390 (4409 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Guilt by association is a good phrase. Polarizing was also used, another good choice. I got a few PMs saying that my words were good. I read a post that misquoted me as saying I don't know where I stand, where I clearly stated the opposite. The only wishy-washy part of my posts related to Brett are the should I post or not because I know what the responses will be.

If you support Lance, you support doping. If you hate Lance, you love cancer. That's usually how it ends up.

Is working with Brett the same as picking Conte or Ferari? I think that Andreau or Vaughters would be a better option. That was my first thought when that reply came up.

Probably some of the best words on this thread, in my opinion, were yours Jordan:

"Is Brett manipulative, authoritarian, and otherwise precisely the kind of the person who would prey on a female minor over whom he had authority. Yes, he is. And he did precisely that. But I also think he's a father and a mentor who cares a lot about people. I expect that whatever lead him to make that terrible, terrible decision is still very much a part of his psyche. But I also don't think it's his whole person.

The world is most comfortable to our brains when it's black and white. But I don't actually think the world is very black and white. Or, more specifically, I don't think that people are very black and white. Actions? Sure. Brett committed - no shades of grey - an atrocity. But does that make him - as a person - an atrocity? I don't want to take that view of the world. If people think less of me because of that, I'm okay with that."

Regarding some of the last couple of pages. Does some of what Brett might write or blog apply to coaching children, since that is the reason this whole thread started? Yes. Should he be allowed near them? No. And having that association with TeamTBB is one that was not there while we were on the team, and it is to me, a questionable angle. But, we have no association whatsoever with the team anymore, so those are not developments that I can speak to...like Jonnyo mentioned.

Would I refer a fellow professional to the team for what it offers? No, but that has everything to do with my results while racing on the team and managerial aspects of the team. The treatment that I received from Brett, that I saw from Brett directed towards his athletes was respectful. And, he has a passion for the sport to see it grow and thrive and to see the professionals in the sport be treated like professionals. That is why I stated that he was a steward of the sport. This is my last post on this subject, maybe on this board. I, like you, see in shades of grey or rose at times. That is a difficult position to hold. It is like sitting the fence with a post up your @$$.

Edited because the text came out funny.





Brandon Marsh - Blog | Website | @BrandonMarshTX | AshworthAwards | Cervelo | RokaWetsuits | 1stEndurance | CobbSaddles |


(This post was edited by -BrandonMarshTX on Jan 12, 13 18:44)


Goosedog

Jan 12, 13 19:12

Post #198 of 390 (4340 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [-BrandonMarshTX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

-BrandonMarshTX wrote:
This is my last post on this subject, maybe on this board.

Don't be so melodramatic.


BDoughtie

Jan 12, 13 19:18

Post #199 of 390 (4333 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [styrrell] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I wanted to rephrase what I meant by I think the "gray" area is kinda questionable when it talks about he's only "coaching" adults. Go read up on the Damha triathlon club that Sutton became apart of simply because he was coaching AG'ers on a pool deck in Canada and another coach saw him and wanted his help with starting an triathlon program in Brazil (of which ITU star Reinaldo Colucci was discovered as a youth).

There is an excellent summary of what the team was doing for this group of kids in Brazil, and how many kids they've helped.

http://www.teamtbb.com/...task=view&id=270

It's like a 4 or 5 part series with different people talking about the Cali team that was created. Looks to be a fantastic program and talks about the roles each played in forming the team. Again this is all info from their own website, so best to take a look at it and read up on it and form your own decision.

Now that isnt to say he should or shouldnt be coaching adults, just that I think when you say that he should only be designated as an "adult" only coach, you can see what type of scenarios that still puts him in.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


realAlbertan

Jan 12, 13 19:34

Post #200 of 390 (4302 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [jonnyo] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

If I find out he's planning to come to Canada I'm calling CBSA.
___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M - 400 & 1500 m Freestyle/200 m Butterfly


jonnyo

Jan 12, 13 19:46

Post #201 of 390 (3514 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [realAlbertan] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

would canada do anything? would they close the border to someone with a criminal record? i m not sure what the law says on this?

.

Jonathan Caron
JonnyO Coaching

(This post was edited by jonnyo on Jan 12, 13 20:18)


Yknot

Jan 12, 13 19:51

Post #202 of 390 (3503 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Hydrosloth] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Hydrosloth wrote:
you wrote

"it was a failure of morality"

ok

a temporary one that deserves forgiveness, or a seminal character flaw that deserves eternal damnation?


I have no insight into the person that Sutton is today so I can not say if it was a single act he would never repeat or an act he would do again if he could. More importantly, I have no desire to get to know Sutton well enough to make that distinction. There are some acts people commit which will forever change my opinion of them. Lack of forgiveness and an unwillingness to look past those transgressions are my personal flaws. And ones I am okay with.

There is nothing special about Sutton for me. Some have felt motivated to get to know him better and I can see where a pro triathlete would have such a motivation. Personally though, there are over a million sex offenders in the world. I don't have the time or inclination to get to know all of them and I don't have any reason to get to know any particular one. I don't hate Sutton any more or less than I hate any other sex offender. When it comes to child molesters, I find them all equally despicable.


(This post was edited by Yknot on Jan 12, 13 19:52)


Mad Jee

Jan 12, 13 20:00

Post #203 of 390 (3476 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [jonnyo] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

He replied to you because you asked another poster what they planned to do about Sutton and asked if they "we're going to cry or just type on your keyboard". So my guess is this poster replied to you because of your vaguely antagonistic question to the other poster.

I can disagree with Jordan on this subject but still maintain some respect for him. At this point I can't say the same about you. Your defensiveness and antagonistic behavior is very off-putting.


Portside Athletics Blog


Bok

Jan 12, 13 20:01

Post #204 of 390 (3472 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [AlwaysCurious] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Quote:
In short, he both coaches minors and has worked his way into a position of power and authority over them.

I'm replying to this statement which I respectfully need to describe as incorrect on two accounts:

1. Brett Sutton does NOT coach any minors on any of our teamTBB country team's, whether in The Philippines or Mexico or any country where we operate as all these country teams have a dedicated teamTBB country coach appointed who resides in the country and trains and coaches the youth elite program and youth development program.

2. Brett Sutton is also NOT in a position of power and authority as he spends a minimum of time in these countries as he wishes to spend as much time with his family in Switzerland and in fact he is in a hand-over mode of his coaching expertise to the next generation of champion coaches.

All professional athletes directly coached by Brett (also reducing in numbers), are at minimum 18 years old, but typically well past 20 year in practice.

For the record: Our mission is and has been from the start of this project to improve the lives of youth around the world by providing hope and opportunity through sports.

I picked the sport of triathlon as our vehicle of choice as this sport has one unique feature over most other sports that everyone who completes a triathlon is a winner, you don't have to actually win the race.

Tennis, soccer, Formula 1 and ping pong don't offer that feature, as there always will be a winner in the end.

We are not about winning, we are about being the best we can be in what ever we do in our lives as an athlete or human being.

We currently are focussed within the teamTBB program on building a pool of coaches who are applying the teamTBB coaching method to the various levels of athletes we coach (i.e. youth development, youth elite and professionals) and in the process Brett Sutton is moving further to the background and will step away from any coaching completely in the process.

All our professional athletes are aware that less and less of them will be directly coached by Brett Sutton, but by our successful country coaches.

With great sadness to those working closely with Brett, Brett's physical health does not allow him to coach much longer. Just browsing through this thread, I can only anticipate some of your comments who will welcome his sickness for the mistakes he made in the past.

All teamTBB sponsors and partners are a 100% aware and in agreement with this approach of coaching our various programs including the minors.


realAlbertan

Jan 12, 13 20:05

Post #205 of 390 (3465 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [jonnyo] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

He is on par with Graham James in my opinion
___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M - 400 & 1500 m Freestyle/200 m Butterfly


jonnyo

Jan 12, 13 20:07

Post #206 of 390 (3456 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [realAlbertan] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

yes,. that was a very sad story.

.

Jonathan Caron
JonnyO Coaching


AlwaysCurious

Jan 12, 13 20:08

Post #207 of 390 (3455 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Rappstar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Before Alex Bok comes on here and gives us the spin that Brett isn't working directly with minors, or that he's constantly supervised when he is--let's consider Sutton's involvement from the perspective of an underprivileged 16 year old girl from the Philippines, Brazil, or Mexico.

She's just been given a dream opportunity to be on a triathlon team...maybe a one-chance dream of a lifetime. She also knows that her immediate coach (presumably not Brett), or the head coach (Brett) could have her removed from the team at any time for any reason. That is the power that coaches have over their team. And the vast majority of all coaches use that power judiciously and with great ethical restraint.

But this is why we don't put convicted child molesters in positions of power over children, even if they don't officially have direct supervision or contact. And even if Mr. Bok would not permit Sutton to cut a minor from the team with no valid reason, the 16 year old girl does not know that. Which is one reason that children are so vulnerable to manipulation and predation by those who have authority over them.

Again, I'm not accusing Sutton of having done anything wrong with the minors in the TBB programs. But there are overwhelmingly clear reasons why he should have absolutely no power or authority over them.

There are reasons why TBB has operated in Thailand and the Philippines and Brazil and now Mexico. I suspect it's because authorities in Australia, Britain, Canada and the U.S. would never let Sutton near minors. I also suspect that it's because the other countries may not consider 16 year-olds to be minors. That may explain the Switzerland choice, also.

Read the 2002 story in the Observer Guardian called "Every Parent's Nightmare". It has detailed coverage of his crimes. But here's a part relevant to his current involvement with youth:
I ask if he [Sutton] protects himself in any way from further charges of abuse. 'I don't coach anyone under 16,' he says. Asked why 16, he replies: 'It's the age of consent. My lawyer told me. That way, no one can say I am a paedophile.' Later, when I interview Sutton formally, he watches over his charges, who include a 16-year-old girl whom Sutton's father - a retired swim coach - has brought over from Australia.

From further reading of the TBB website, and Sutton's own blog, it appears he is starting to remove himself from coaching professionals in 2013. It sounds like it's so he can focus his efforts on TBB's youth development programs in Asia and South America.


TravisT

Jan 12, 13 20:08

Post #208 of 390 (3454 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Bok] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

So Sutton's recent tweet about his interaction with the Cozumel Elite Youth program was a fabrication. Glad we've cleared that up.
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jonnyo

Jan 12, 13 20:09

Post #209 of 390 (3449 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

i see, i didnt get that at all. Now it make sence.

as for you, well, i think you made i clear that you judged me a long time ago. I dont think at this point your feeling towards me are important to me

I cant have everyone like me,

.

Jonathan Caron
JonnyO Coaching


BDoughtie

Jan 12, 13 20:19

Post #210 of 390 (3408 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [TravisT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

The issue I have is that even their team management seems to muddy the waters when they talk about "coaching". The CEO and prez of Alaska Milk Corp (this is the team pic with Sutton and several under 18 athletes). is quoted as saying, "Obviously having a top caliber coach in Brett Sutton helps make this goal a real possibility ." (in reference to getting Filipino athletes a chance at international success).


http://www.teamtbb.com.ph/the-team


So I guess my question is, what type of clarity can they provide from a situation like this. If he's not "coaching", what is the purpose of him being around in team photos and around under 18 athletes in a triathlon forum?
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


Hydrosloth

Jan 12, 13 20:19

Post #211 of 390 (3406 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [jonnyo] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

not as long as you bike faster than me!
Is that parade on yet?


Hydrosloth

Jan 12, 13 20:24

Post #212 of 390 (3390 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [realAlbertan] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Maybe...not sure of individual case details, but there are a lot of shades of grey on this one.

I work with these guys on a weekly basis. The difference between a guy who anally rapes his niece/nephew with a knife is a lot worse than a curious diddler.

Where does Sutton/James fall into the spectrum... ask Theo - or ????
Is that parade on yet?


Mad Jee

Jan 12, 13 20:25

Post #213 of 390 (3389 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

But hey, "integrity" is one of their core values, "Our integrity is what keeps us together. This means having respect for all partners of the team and being able to trust each other under all circumstances. That implies honesty among all team members “on and off the pitch”. We will maintain the highest ethical standards."

Trust each other under all circumstances...except, you know, leaving our head coach alone with minors.


Portside Athletics Blog


AlwaysCurious

Jan 12, 13 20:25

Post #214 of 390 (3389 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Bok] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

You've neglecting answering a few critical questions, so I'll ask them directly:
  1. Has Sutton's role with TBB ever brought him into contact with those under the age of 18? Please describe those circumstances.
  2. The TBB press releases about the youth teams in the Philippines and Mexico all stress Brett's role as the head coach. Are you saying that, as head coach, he has no authority or power over the team?
  3. Sutton's blog suggests that he'll be working a lot more with TBB's youth scholarship/development/education programs. If so, would this place him in contact with children under 18?


TravisT

Jan 12, 13 20:25

Post #215 of 390 (3387 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

TBB's statement above talks about their mission to help youth. Why the hell would anyone in their right mind ever consider partnering or using the services of a convicted child molester in any aspect of the program, even in name involvement only? There are plenty of other highly qualified individuals who I'm sure would be happy to offer their services. Just like Jordan's continued defense of Sutton has completely destroyed the respect I had for him before this, that PR puff piece above destroys any credibility TBB had for me. Just the fact that they can defend Sutton and talk about their youth program together is all kinds of wrong.
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ironpsych

Jan 12, 13 20:43

Post #216 of 390 (3337 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [-BrandonMarshTX] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I went back and reread Marsh's initial post and it is even worse than I thought.

Sentences relating his thoughts/feelings about what Sutton did: 1

"So, why am I writing this? I don't know. I know exactly where I stand on things related to Brett Sutton."

That's it. I think that's kinda wishy washy. And where do you stand exactly? Couldn't find that in the post.

Sentences extolling the virtues of Sutton: pretty much the entire rest of the post.

Brett is the glue that holds things together. He goes out of his way to warn other coaches. He treats his athletes great.

He is a steward of the sport of triathlon. But apparently not of his underage athletes.

And whining that triathletes aren't decrying swim coach pervs.

This is what I was responding to when I criticized your post.

I am glad that he now agrees with Rappstar's assessment but on a thread that is discussing Sutton's history of sexually molesting a 14 y.o. I didn't see much that Marsh was doing other than coming to the defense of his apparent coaching muse.

Disappointing.


realAlbertan

Jan 12, 13 20:50

Post #217 of 390 (3323 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Hydrosloth] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I would love to call up Sheldon Kennedy and see what he thinks.
___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M - 400 & 1500 m Freestyle/200 m Butterfly


AlwaysCurious

Jan 12, 13 21:01

Post #218 of 390 (3299 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [realAlbertan] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

realAlbertan wrote:
He is on par with Graham James in my opinion

From the Graham James Wikipedia page:

James pleaded guilty to 350 sexual assaults against the two players, and was sentenced to three and a half years in jail. He was paroled in 2001. The players referred to whomever James targeted as "Graham's new favourite." James was charismatic and consistently successful as a coach. Even during his investigation, he was able to secure character references from respected hockey people and former players. He claimed that his relationship with Sheldon Kennedy was consensual and it was not illegal or immoral

...James was given a lifetime ban from coaching by the Canadian Hockey Association. When the CHA learned that James was coaching in Spain, it complained to European ice hockey officials, and he was fired.





Bok

Jan 12, 13 21:29

Post #219 of 390 (3249 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [AlwaysCurious] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

  
Quote:
But this is why we don't put convicted child molesters in positions of power over children, even if they don't officially have direct supervision or contact. And even if Mr. Bok would not permit Sutton to cut a minor from the team with no valid reason, the 16 year old girl does not know that. Which is one reason that children are so vulnerable to manipulation and predation by those who have authority over them.

The only coach with “coaching authority” over our youth development and youth elite athletes, is the country coach. Brett Sutton does not need or desire any authority, as he simply would never want to make a decision over a development athletes as we are not about creating winners. His desire is to retire after leaving a group of young champion coaches, and he simply sees himself as their mentor. We are about providing hope and opportunity to struggling pro’s since the start of our team in 2007 already and if a development athlete learns something about swimming and respecting his fellow athletes and refraining from violence at all times and never ever get involved in drugs, our mission is successful!

Why would we want to “fire” someone from our squad, if we know they simply do their best?

In The Philippines one 17 year old girl left our team in 2012, as she wanted to join the National Swim squad. No problem for us, we accepted her decision and all was handled on country level.


Quote:
Again, I'm not accusing Sutton of having done anything wrong with the minors in the TBB programs. But there are overwhelmingly clear reasons why he should have absolutely no power or authority over them.

Thank you for the little respect provided to Brett Sutton for having coached for more than 20 years after the dramatic mistakes he made and extensively discussed on this forum, without one repeat offence committed ever, while hundreds if not thousands of male and female athletes have been coached by Brett on a daily basis during that same period. Some people do show great remorse for mistakes made and learn from the pain this has caused both their victim and themselves in the process and trust me if I tell you, Brett has taken the burden for it upon himself for the rest of his live.

Key point on a belief I have and will share to those who question why I work with Brett Sutton.

Any emotional or physical challenge we experience in our lives can be resolved if we can truly reach a place in our heart where we can forgive those that committed sins to us our loved onces, or people we know and in the process the world will become a better place.

Many years before I met my wife, she was a victim of many years of sexual, physical and emotional abuse. She healed herself and currently operates a practice helping other such victims. She has experienced herself and with her clients also great success, that healing can only take place when the victim is able to forgive, no matter how contradicting that might sound, the abuser, as otherwise the abuser will always retain a continued power over the victim.

The nightmares, pain and fear victims continue to experience in their lives, are totally understandable and must always be totally respected at all times, but as long as we empower the abuser with our anger, fear, pain and what ever other emotional state, then this abuser still influences the happiness and quality of our lives.

This all has very little to do with triathlon, but with a profound insight and proven facts by many people who were able to let go of the past, who could forgive those that hurt them in their life, as that lead to an increased level of happiness and the ability to "move on with life" as otherwise the victim could face even bigger challenges in the future for holding on to all that pain.

Letting go of the pain, letting go of the anger and finding “peace” in what has happened and was so very wrong, can be one of the biggest revelations and ways to healing for any one who has gone through such extreme painful experience.

My wife has met Brett Sutton prior to me proceeding to work with him after a 3 months in-depth study of his case and past. As a victim for more 6 six years herself, she strongly recommended me to work with Brett as she took one hour of talks as a women and ex-victim herself to figure out this man has a great heart and despite his terrible offence, he too deserves a life and for some people to provide forgiveness for him to move on with his life.

I sincerely hope that any victim on this forum, will accept I truly regret what happened to you and I totally respect and honor you for your courage to continue your life and speak out against those that have hurt you or similar offenders. No words can describe the pain for those who have experienced this, I know first hand.

But please accept, I have seen the power of forgiveness in the person I love most, who was abused for 6 years under the most extreme circumstances. Once she was able to forgive all involved in her ordeal, she finally was able to move on with her life as she verbally, emotionally and spiritually forgave her abusers and attackers, and as a result she is one of the happiest person's I know. After years of further studies and working with experts all over the world, she now successfully helps other victims to experience the same happiness and release of pain.

I agree with all on this forum, that people who violated such level of trust with a minor in a coaching position, should not be coaching minors, so there is no disagreement there at all.

Quote:
There are reasons why TBB has operated in Thailand and the Philippines and Brazil and now Mexico. I suspect it's because authorities in Australia, Britain, Canada and the U.S. would never let Sutton near minors. I also suspect that it's because the other countries may not consider 16 year-olds to be minors. That may explain the Switzerland choice, also.

Again, with full respect for your comment, but the assumption you are making is truly 100% incorrect. My business was based in Asia at the start, and hence our training camps were therefore organized in Asia. I live in Thailand with my wife, who is Dutch also.

We have launched teamTBB country teams in the USA, UK, Japan and Germany and the selection of our country team’s is made based on having a country title sponsor / partner and the local support to start our social programs.

Not once EVER, have I made a decision to stay away from country or open in a specific country based on the history of Brett Sutton!

Quote:
From further reading of the TBB website, and Sutton's own blog, it appears he is starting to remove himself from coaching professionals in 2013. It sounds like it's so he can focus his efforts on TBB's youth development programs in Asia and South America.

On doctor’s advise Brett is removing himself from not only his coaching work at teamTBB, but also from extensive travel and stressful environments. This means Brett will be increasingly operating as an advisor only in the background and do seminars and talks in our regional training hubs. At the same time, given his health situation, he wishes to spend more time with his wife, their two little daughters and three kids from his first marriage. I guess for him to therefore share his views about sports and kids on our website, based entirely on what he experiences with his own two daughters, seem fine to me.


kennyDalglish

Jan 12, 13 21:44

Post #220 of 390 (3229 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Bok] (Deleted by kennyDalglish) [In reply to]

 


aerobike

Jan 12, 13 22:06

Post #221 of 390 (3199 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ironpsych] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

What a disgrace that anyone can defend or associate with this convicted child molester.

"The first offence occurred when the swimmer was staying at Sutton's house, and the coach joined her in bed. 'She states that she was very scared and didn't know how to handle the situation and she knew it was wrong,' the prosecution said.


Another offence happened when Sutton was massaging the girl. 'As he was rubbing her leg he moved his hand further towards her groin and he put one of his fingers in her vagina,' the court was told.


The other counts included one where Sutton picked the girl up from school, took her to an underground car park and forced her to give him oral sex in the back of the van. 'She tried to lift her head but his hand was at the back of her head,' the court was told. 'She recalls him saying things like 'You're good at this'. She states that she felt like it was something she was supposed to be doing because he made her feel like it's the right thing to do.'

And does this sound like a guy who is remorseful and contrite?

"Sutton was only convicted, though, after the woman had the police secretly record a phone conversation in which Sutton made a series of admissions. He says now he knew he was being set up. When initially interviewed by police, he repeatedly denied all the allegations. 'This,' says Celia Brackenridge, 'is standard behaviour by offenders. They never admit to anything until there is categorical proof against them. They know how difficult it is to get evidence against them to convict.'

"In the restaurant, Sutton says his life has been ruined by the case. 'I can't sleep at nights. I didn't sleep for a week after you first approached me to ask for the interview.' He says that in the four years before the trial, when the investigation was under way, he was clinically depressed, had been prescribed Prozac and received psychiatric help. 'I seriously thought about suicide,' he says. 'I knew one coach in Australia who was accused, and he did kill himself.'

"I wish I could tell some of the younger coaches what it is like, what to avoid,' he says. 'The traps when they flash their fanny at you or grab you by your tool.'

'You could put me up against a wall if I haven't been approached at least 30 times by girls who want to have sex,' Sutton says


http://observer.guardian.co.uk/osm/story/0,,678189,00.html


realAlbertan

Jan 12, 13 22:51

Post #222 of 390 (3149 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [jonnyo] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

He would likely require either a temporary resident permit or a special permit from the minister of citizenship and immigration. Americans with a DUI in the last ten years are routinely denied entry to Canada.
___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M - 400 & 1500 m Freestyle/200 m Butterfly


adal

Jan 12, 13 23:50

Post #223 of 390 (3115 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Hypocrites.

Just research, how many women (including minors) the American army raped all over the world and tried to cover it up afterwards (Vietnam, Bangkok, Okinawa). No American needs to take part in this absurd outcry about a "crime" that took place half a century ago in Australia.

Just research how old the third wife of Mohammed was. Just research, how the Catholic Church organized the covering up child rape for decades, all over the world and especially in America.

And you celebrate your army and respect those cults, because it is fashionable. But in an internet forum you do a pseudo morality show on someone who had sex with a legal minor some half century ago.

For sure, Sutton did something wrong at that time, got a penalty and served it. But if you don't welcome former offenders back into society, you need to kill them or imprison them forever in the first place. If Sutton should be banned from coaching, you take his way of making a living, right? So basically you should be consequent enough to demand a death penalty.

I met Mr. Sutton and I trust him, I don't trust a society that gives a gun to everyone but gets all nervous about the swimsuit edition of a magazine. If Sutton shot that girl, Americans would forgive him, maybe. It would be just murder or manslaughter and not ... huh ... sex.


(This post was edited by adal on Jan 13, 13 0:20)


PhilipShambrook

Jan 13, 13 0:19

Post #224 of 390 (3080 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [adal] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

+1

Bloody puritans.


ZingUK

Jan 13, 13 1:32

Post #225 of 390 (3040 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

BDoughtie wrote:
You can reason/justify it in any way but for him to be even in contact with minors within the sport, to me is wrong. So you can say he doesn't "coach" them 3 posts after a picture of him with juniors, is odd.

I doesn't matter what job he took, if he became a chef he might bake a kid for a kids party, if a mechanic he may com into contact with kids at a christmas party, if he works in an office perhaps through a work experience day. Children are people and the wold is full of them, just because he's in a picture taken in a group and there happens to be a 16 year old there (note this is not a minor and we only have TravisT word for it that she is 16) to suggest that means he has peadophile tendancies and is using his coaching position to satify his drive is just stupid. He should not work in a position where he is directly working with children and he doesn't but no matter what he does in life at some point it is inevitable that there will be minors around.

No matter what rules you put on real preditors they will still get access if they want either hanging outside school gates or grooming kids on the internet, that i truly sick and yes that person should be locked up but that is not Sutton. He made a grave error and has\is paying for it but there is no suggestion that he has ever repeated that error ergo let the man live his life.

Re forgiveness the only people who can offer forgivenss is the girl involved and her direct family and that is a matter for them privately.


avagoyamug

Jan 13, 13 4:02

Post #226 of 390 (3924 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [adal] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

adal wrote:
Hypocrites.

Just research, how many women (including minors) the American army raped all over the world and tried to cover it up afterwards (Vietnam, Bangkok, Okinawa). No American needs to take part in this absurd outcry about a "crime" that took place half a century ago in Australia.

Just research how old the third wife of Mohammed was. Just research, how the Catholic Church organized the covering up child rape for decades, all over the world and especially in America.

And you celebrate your army and respect those cults, because it is fashionable. But in an internet forum you do a pseudo morality show on someone who had sex with a legal minor some half century ago.

For sure, Sutton did something wrong at that time, got a penalty and served it. But if you don't welcome former offenders back into society, you need to kill them or imprison them forever in the first place. If Sutton should be banned from coaching, you take his way of making a living, right? So basically you should be consequent enough to demand a death penalty.

I met Mr. Sutton and I trust him, I don't trust a society that gives a gun to everyone but gets all nervous about the swimsuit edition of a magazine. If Sutton shot that girl, Americans would forgive him, maybe. It would be just murder or manslaughter and not ... huh ... sex.


Bravo. Some weird thought processes going on in this thread. Reminds me of a typical deep south/ST lunch mob as usual.

Incaceration and punishment seems to be the third passion in the US. Right after guns and religion.


(This post was edited by avagoyamug on Jan 13, 13 4:50)


avagoyamug

Jan 13, 13 4:44

Post #227 of 390 (3898 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [TravisT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply


TravisT wrote:


Just to add to the already disturbing things this guy writes, he is a triathlon "coach" and has a daughter.


Indeed I am and I do Sherlock. And I would leave my daughter with Brett Sutton in a heart beat. He made a mistake and I know he would never do harm to her or any other girl again. I have 100% confidence in that.


I would not however want her under the influence or regular presence of someone like yourself.


(This post was edited by avagoyamug on Jan 13, 13 5:53)


Mad Jee

Jan 13, 13 4:53

Post #228 of 390 (3881 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

"Incarceration seems to be the third passion in the US. Right after guns and religion."

Oh, get over yourself. I'm an atheist and have never so much as held a weapon, I just prefer keeping convicted child molesters out of positions of authority that may potentially bring them into contact with children.

Especially, when as per the admission of Jordan, someone defending Sutton, Sutton violated the terms of his suspension.


Portside Athletics Blog


avagoyamug

Jan 13, 13 5:04

Post #229 of 390 (3867 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Mad Jee wrote:
"Incarceration seems to be the third passion in the US. Right after guns and religion."

Oh, get over yourself. I'm an atheist and have never so much as held a weapon, I just prefer keeping convicted child molesters out of positions of authority that may potentially bring them into contact with children.

Especially, when as per the admission of Jordan, someone defending Sutton, Sutton violated the terms of his suspension.


Got over myself?? I was talking about the mentaility in the US nothing to do with me. It's an awesome country for sure but the obsession with religion, guns and punishment are not what make it awesome, they are what is bringing the country down.


(This post was edited by avagoyamug on Jan 13, 13 5:06)


Mad Jee

Jan 13, 13 5:07

Post #230 of 390 (3861 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

And I am saying your assumptions make you sound ignorant and foolish. I am none of the things you describe yet am still as much "anti-Sutton" as anyone on this thread.


Portside Athletics Blog


iron_mike

Jan 13, 13 5:07

Post #231 of 390 (3861 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Bok] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Bok wrote:

Quote:

But this is why we don't put convicted child molesters in positions of power over children, even if they don't officially have direct supervision or contact. And even if Mr. Bok would not permit Sutton to cut a minor from the team with no valid reason, the 16 year old girl does not know that. Which is one reason that children are so vulnerable to manipulation and predation by those who have authority over them.


The only coach with “coaching authority” over our youth development and youth elite athletes, is the country coach. Brett Sutton does not need or desire any authority, as he simply would never want to make a decision over a development athletes as we are not about creating winners.

Quote:

Again, I'm not accusing Sutton of having done anything wrong with the minors in the TBB programs. But there are overwhelmingly clear reasons why he should have absolutely no power or authority over them.


Thank you for the little respect provided to Brett Sutton for having coached for more than 20 years after the dramatic mistakes he made and extensively discussed on this forum, without one repeat offence committed ever, while hundreds if not thousands of male and female athletes have been coached by Brett on a daily basis during that same period. ...


that healing can only take place when the victim is able to forgive, no matter how contradicting that might sound, the abuser, as otherwise the abuser will always retain a continued power over the victim.

The nightmares, pain and fear victims continue to experience in their lives, are totally understandable and must always be totally respected at all times, but as long as we empower the abuser with our anger, fear, pain and what ever other emotional state, then this abuser still influences the happiness and quality of our lives.


this message of yours is positively chilling.

i see a few things, here.

1) no, the reason that sutton shouldn't have authority over junior triathletes is not because of TBB's philosophy on athlete development. nor is it because he doesn't "need or desire authority." it's because he's a convicted paedophile.

the fact that TBB either ignores or does not appreciate this fact is mind-boggling.

2) taking the indignant tone ("thank you for showing so little respect for Brett Sutton. . .") here is more than just a bad choice, it's downright offensive. are you seriously trying to shame us into 'respecting' this man because he has an aptitude for making wealthy people into fast triathletes?

3) lastly, your apparent desire to tell Sutton's victim how to deal with her experiences is so wrong it's hard to know where to begin.

this all makes me wonder who the hell is driving the bus at TBB. how can you release such hamfisted statements on important matters? when you arrange a group of teenagers in their bathing suits for a team picture, how the hell can it not occur to someone to pull Sutton out of the picture? that should be a complete no-brainer.

this tone-deaf and, frankly, scary, approach has told me just about everything that i think i need to know about team TBB.

-mike
____________________________________
http://utoronto.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/


dreaming~big

Jan 13, 13 5:23

Post #232 of 390 (3841 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [iron_mike] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

x2. I am completely dumbfounded at this man's justification of hiring a child molester. Because his wife was molested and wants to forgive someone? Oh Jesus holy Christ. Get the man away from those children. These rationalizations that it was a "mistake" and a "grave error" are hideous. It was a long series of conscious, deviant, depraved decisions on his part. How do you mistakenly fondle a child's private? Holy Jesus, wake up.


iron_mike

Jan 13, 13 5:46

Post #233 of 390 (3803 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [dreaming~big] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

listen, i can actually perfectly understand the decision to hire Sutton. he's one of the best high-performance tri coaches in history. but when the world's biggest triathlon website asks some reasonable questions about whether the man is working again with juniors, the only acceptable answer is something like:

"absolutely not. because of his history, we have an iron-clad policy that he's not in any way affiliated with our junior program. in the interests of transparency all our athletes and/or their guardians are informed of his past through our legal counsel. hope this clarifies things and i'd be happy to address any other questions."

instead we've had a reply - from the management of a team that aspires to take triathlon professionalization to the next level - that's not just amateurish but downright offensive.

-mike
____________________________________
http://utoronto.academia.edu/MikeCallaghan

http://howtobeswiss.blogspot.ch/


BDoughtie

Jan 13, 13 5:47

Post #234 of 390 (3800 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Your point about an predator getting access is exactly why I have an issue with the stance this situation is showing. Just reading how often sutton is purposely put in place to come in direct contact with minors due to his coaching, is a bit weird. Read about the 30 kids he got to directly meet in brazil because the developing team coach wanted his help in developing that program. But I guess it's ok's because he isn't the "coach" of said program, it's always under someone else's umbrella. This isn't just a "oh there are kids at a party because the world is full of children", that was a situation that he got to be in the direct access of children in a Tri related venue because he is a coach.


I'm not even saying he's acting in any predatory like tendencies. But he's convicted of harming an minor and for you to justify it seemingly because the world is full of children and we can't ban him from all contact is troubling. When he is in an situation where others are willingly putting him in contact with minors/scholarly juniors, that is something that can be stopped.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


avagoyamug

Jan 13, 13 5:49

Post #235 of 390 (3797 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Mad Jee wrote:
And I am saying your assumptions make you sound ignorant and foolish. I am none of the things you describe yet am still as much "anti-Sutton" as anyone on this thread.

What are these assumptions that you speak of?

That guns, religion and a lynch-mob like mentality are more prominent in America than in other developed countries?

I would contend these are truisms not assumptions backed up by innumerable statistics.


avagoyamug

Jan 13, 13 5:50

Post #236 of 390 (3795 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [dreaming~big] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

dreaming~big wrote:
? Oh Jesus holy Christ. Get the man away from those children. These rationalizations that it was a "mistake" and a "grave error" are hideous. Holy Jesus, wake up.

See what I mean?


BDoughtie

Jan 13, 13 5:56

Post #237 of 390 (3783 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [iron_mike] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

That is pretty much exactly what I find troubling. It's as if we aren't arguing/discussing does he or doesn't he come into contact with juniors, we are arguing over what defines "coaching". So teamtbb is saying because he doesn't directly coach the junior team athletes, that all other contact is kinda ok'd? Just seems weird that their own website promotes the great work sutton does with juniors and then will tell us that sutton isn't directly coaching the juniors. Ok, I actually believe he isn't holding a stop watch and out on bike rides with them. But why is he to given access to them in arenas that he shouldn't be (team photos, meeting new juniors that don't have other ways of access into the sport). It just kinda seems like the line of allowance seems to move around. Again, I'm not even trying to say he's trying to in any way take advantage of any situation he puts himself into. I'm just questioning why he's allowed to be in the situations that are described in by team tbb.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


avagoyamug

Jan 13, 13 6:01

Post #238 of 390 (3775 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

BDoughtie wrote:
That is pretty much exactly what I find troubling. It's as if we aren't arguing/discussing does he or doesn't he come into contact with juniors, we are arguing over what defines "coaching". So teamtbb is saying because he doesn't directly coach the junior team athletes, that all other contact is kinda ok'd? Just seems weird that their own website promotes the great work sutton does with juniors and then will tell us that sutton isn't directly coaching the juniors. Ok, I actually believe he isn't holding a stop watch and out on bike rides with them. But why is he to given access to them in arenas that he shouldn't be (team photos, meeting new juniors that don't have other ways of access into the sport). It just kinda seems like the line of allowance seems to move around. Again, I'm not even trying to say he's trying to in any way take advantage of any situation he puts himself into. I'm just questioning why he's allowed to be in the situations that are described in by team tbb.

Maybe because they know as I do that there is no risk.


BDoughtie

Jan 13, 13 6:08

Post #239 of 390 (3762 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

No offense but seeing how you have done nothing to identify yourself in the forum, whether you think he is a risk or not a risk, does it really mean much?

Now if you want to identify yourself and how you are relevant to this particular issue, then your view would atleast hold some validity. Until then not so much.

ETA: and my view means very little, but if we can have an discussion on the topic then if you are willing to say he isn't a risk without identifying how you can verify that, then it's really an non point.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


(This post was edited by BDoughtie on Jan 13, 13 6:11)


earthling

Jan 13, 13 6:14

Post #240 of 390 (3749 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [bcagle25] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Sutton threads. They just go on and on and on........

If you don't agree with him coaching in triathlon ignore him, then he might not get the media he currently gets. Simple.

Ill sit back now and watch this thread go on, and on, and on while nothing changes.................


He who understands the WHY, will understand the HOW.


Nick Mallett

Jan 13, 13 6:18

Post #241 of 390 (3742 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [earthling] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

earthling wrote:
Sutton threads. They just go on and on and on........

If you don't agree with him coaching in triathlon ignore him, then he might not get the media he currently gets. Simple.

Ill sit back now and watch this thread go on, and on, and on while nothing changes.................[/quote]

------

x2

Just like many other "hot topics" here..

----


Power13

Jan 13, 13 6:20

Post #242 of 390 (3731 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [adal] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

adal wrote:
Hypocrites.

Just research, how many women (including minors) the American army raped all over the world and tried to cover it up afterwards (Vietnam, Bangkok, Okinawa). No American needs to take part in this absurd outcry about a "crime" that took place half a century ago in Australia.

Just research how old the third wife of Mohammed was. Just research, how the Catholic Church organized the covering up child rape for decades, all over the world and especially in America.

And you celebrate your army and respect those cults, because it is fashionable. But in an internet forum you do a pseudo morality show on someone who had sex with a legal minor some half century ago.

For sure, Sutton did something wrong at that time, got a penalty and served it. But if you don't welcome former offenders back into society, you need to kill them or imprison them forever in the first place. If Sutton should be banned from coaching, you take his way of making a living, right? So basically you should be consequent enough to demand a death penalty.

I met Mr. Sutton and I trust him, I don't trust a society that gives a gun to everyone but gets all nervous about the swimsuit edition of a magazine. If Sutton shot that girl, Americans would forgive him, maybe. It would be just murder or manslaughter and not ... huh ... sex.

There is so much bad logic in this post......what makes you think that those who are criticizing Sutton support or accept the crimes committed by our military? Can you please show posts where statements such as that have been made?

The case against Sutton coaching has been made by others, so I won't go through that again. For myself, other than minors, I don't care if Sutton coaches or not. But that doesn't mean that people have to use him as a coach. And if they do, it also doesn't mean that I can't hold an opinion on those people. There are many ways for Sutton to earn a living. he is entitled to the opportunity to make a living. he is NOT entitled to be a triathlon coach. "The world needs ditch diggers, too."

I also don't understand how anyone can say Sutton is not in a position of power and influence over minors. See the previous posted photo.....the picture exalts Sutton and there are minors in the picture. Do I really need to paint the picture of how even that instance can be turned into a situation where his influence, even if it is not direct, can be used against those minors?

B all accounts, Sutton has turned his life around and has never committed a similar act again. He should be applauded for that and I wish him nothing but the best in that regard. But that doesn't mean he should be anywhere near minors in any sort of a professional capacity....and that includes photo ops.
__________________________________________________
“I want to tell the world of cycling to please join me in telling Pat McQuaid to f##k off and resign." - Greg Lemond


TravisT

Jan 13, 13 6:33

Post #243 of 390 (3700 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

avagoyamug wrote:

TravisT wrote:


Just to add to the already disturbing things this guy writes, he is a triathlon "coach" and has a daughter.


Indeed I am and I do Sherlock. And I would leave my daughter with Brett Sutton in a heart beat. He made a mistake and I know he would never do harm to her or any other girl again. I have 100% confidence in that.


I would not however want her under the influence or regular presence of someone like yourself.


I feel bad for your daughter that you would feel comfortable leaving her with some who is a convicted child molester and who's victim said the kind of things about him that she did. Well on your way to father of the year award there. Not really surprising given your general attitude towards right and wrong when you're the kind of guy who feels no qualms abusing a race official and cutting a penalty in a race when you can get away with it and boasting after. I'm am as anti-religious and gun as they come but some things are simply right or wrong. Your concept of which is obviously skewed.
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TravisT

Jan 13, 13 6:44

Post #244 of 390 (3676 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Bok] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Bok wrote:

Quote:

But this is why we don't put convicted child molesters in positions of power over children, even if they don't officially have direct supervision or contact. And even if Mr. Bok would not permit Sutton to cut a minor from the team with no valid reason, the 16 year old girl does not know that. Which is one reason that children are so vulnerable to manipulation and predation by those who have authority over them.



The only coach with “coaching authority” over our youth development and youth elite athletes, is the country coach. Brett Sutton does not need or desire any authority, as he simply would never want to make a decision over a development athletes as we are not about creating winners. His desire is to retire after leaving a group of young champion coaches, and he simply sees himself as their mentor. We are about providing hope and opportunity to struggling pro’s since the start of our team in 2007 already and if a development athlete learns something about swimming and respecting his fellow athletes and refraining from violence at all times and never ever get involved in drugs, our mission is successful!

Why would we want to “fire” someone from our squad, if we know they simply do their best?

In The Philippines one 17 year old girl left our team in 2012, as she wanted to join the National Swim squad. No problem for us, we accepted her decision and all was handled on country level.


Quote:

Again, I'm not accusing Sutton of having done anything wrong with the minors in the TBB programs. But there are overwhelmingly clear reasons why he should have absolutely no power or authority over them.



Thank you for the little respect provided to Brett Sutton for having coached for more than 20 years after the dramatic mistakes he made and extensively discussed on this forum, without one repeat offence committed ever, while hundreds if not thousands of male and female athletes have been coached by Brett on a daily basis during that same period. Some people do show great remorse for mistakes made and learn from the pain this has caused both their victim and themselves in the process and trust me if I tell you, Brett has taken the burden for it upon himself for the rest of his live.

Key point on a belief I have and will share to those who question why I work with Brett Sutton.

Any emotional or physical challenge we experience in our lives can be resolved if we can truly reach a place in our heart where we can forgive those that committed sins to us our loved onces, or people we know and in the process the world will become a better place.

Many years before I met my wife, she was a victim of many years of sexual, physical and emotional abuse. She healed herself and currently operates a practice helping other such victims. She has experienced herself and with her clients also great success, that healing can only take place when the victim is able to forgive, no matter how contradicting that might sound, the abuser, as otherwise the abuser will always retain a continued power over the victim.

The nightmares, pain and fear victims continue to experience in their lives, are totally understandable and must always be totally respected at all times, but as long as we empower the abuser with our anger, fear, pain and what ever other emotional state, then this abuser still influences the happiness and quality of our lives.

This all has very little to do with triathlon, but with a profound insight and proven facts by many people who were able to let go of the past, who could forgive those that hurt them in their life, as that lead to an increased level of happiness and the ability to "move on with life" as otherwise the victim could face even bigger challenges in the future for holding on to all that pain.

Letting go of the pain, letting go of the anger and finding “peace” in what has happened and was so very wrong, can be one of the biggest revelations and ways to healing for any one who has gone through such extreme painful experience.

My wife has met Brett Sutton prior to me proceeding to work with him after a 3 months in-depth study of his case and past. As a victim for more 6 six years herself, she strongly recommended me to work with Brett as she took one hour of talks as a women and ex-victim herself to figure out this man has a great heart and despite his terrible offence, he too deserves a life and for some people to provide forgiveness for him to move on with his life.

I sincerely hope that any victim on this forum, will accept I truly regret what happened to you and I totally respect and honor you for your courage to continue your life and speak out against those that have hurt you or similar offenders. No words can describe the pain for those who have experienced this, I know first hand.

But please accept, I have seen the power of forgiveness in the person I love most, who was abused for 6 years under the most extreme circumstances. Once she was able to forgive all involved in her ordeal, she finally was able to move on with her life as she verbally, emotionally and spiritually forgave her abusers and attackers, and as a result she is one of the happiest person's I know. After years of further studies and working with experts all over the world, she now successfully helps other victims to experience the same happiness and release of pain.

I agree with all on this forum, that people who violated such level of trust with a minor in a coaching position, should not be coaching minors, so there is no disagreement there at all.

Quote:

There are reasons why TBB has operated in Thailand and the Philippines and Brazil and now Mexico. I suspect it's because authorities in Australia, Britain, Canada and the U.S. would never let Sutton near minors. I also suspect that it's because the other countries may not consider 16 year-olds to be minors. That may explain the Switzerland choice, also.



Again, with full respect for your comment, but the assumption you are making is truly 100% incorrect. My business was based in Asia at the start, and hence our training camps were therefore organized in Asia. I live in Thailand with my wife, who is Dutch also.

We have launched teamTBB country teams in the USA, UK, Japan and Germany and the selection of our country team’s is made based on having a country title sponsor / partner and the local support to start our social programs.

Not once EVER, have I made a decision to stay away from country or open in a specific country based on the history of Brett Sutton!

Quote:

From further reading of the TBB website, and Sutton's own blog, it appears he is starting to remove himself from coaching professionals in 2013. It sounds like it's so he can focus his efforts on TBB's youth development programs in Asia and South America.



On doctor’s advise Brett is removing himself from not only his coaching work at teamTBB, but also from extensive travel and stressful environments. This means Brett will be increasingly operating as an advisor only in the background and do seminars and talks in our regional training hubs. At the same time, given his health situation, he wishes to spend more time with his wife, their two little daughters and three kids from his first marriage. I guess for him to therefore share his views about sports and kids on our website, based entirely on what he experiences with his own two daughters, seem fine to me.


I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and only say that you have terrible judgment. Whatever forgiveness your wife gave Sutton is an acceptable reason for having him as a family friend. It doesn't even come close to being a reason to utilize the service of a convicted child molester in an organization whose stated purpose involves working with kids and minors. It is a decision so mind-blowingly bad it hard to accept you are blind to it only because of bad judgment. You state you met Sutton after an intense study of him and his past. So did he come to you to offer his services or did you reach out to him. Not much good can be said about either scenario. Your refusal to address his obvious interactions with minors that have been raised on this thread is also troubling.
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pick6

Jan 13, 13 6:50

Post #245 of 390 (3669 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

BDoughtie wrote:
That is pretty much exactly what I find troubling. It's as if we aren't arguing/discussing does he or doesn't he come into contact with juniors, we are arguing over what defines "coaching". So teamtbb is saying because he doesn't directly coach the junior team athletes, that all other contact is kinda ok'd? Just seems weird that their own website promotes the great work sutton does with juniors and then will tell us that sutton isn't directly coaching the juniors. Ok, I actually believe he isn't holding a stop watch and out on bike rides with them. But why is he to given access to them in arenas that he shouldn't be (team photos, meeting new juniors that don't have other ways of access into the sport). It just kinda seems like the line of allowance seems to move around. Again, I'm not even trying to say he's trying to in any way take advantage of any situation he puts himself into. I'm just questioning why he's allowed to be in the situations that are described in by team tbb.

- He's at some race with one of his pros and a young triathlete comes up to him (isn't that that Sutton, the coach who helped make Chrissie what she is?) what's he gonna do, run away? No, he smiles, takes a picture, is kind and then returns his focus back to his athlete. Unless he lives in a cave in the middle of nowhere there's no way to be sure he would never come across an attractive young woman in his life, and assuming no recidivist behavior has been shown, I guess I dont have a problem with that.

- The staged photos with juniors, that's the other side of the coin. Its just stupid that they're doing that. It's one thing that he lives his normal life, but it's another to say "Hey sugar addict, here is our new selection of candy. Now you're not allowed to have any but you can look all you want". That's just a bad idea, even if he's shown no recidivist behavior.

And when we talk about what defines coaching, his prior success puts him in a position of authority automatically over any junior interested or intrigued by that. No official relationship needs to exist between a child molester and molestee, except that of predator and victim.

I don't know Sutton, and i believe in rehabilitation. I have some real issue with the things he said back when he got caught, but if there really hasn't been an inappropriate action in 20+ years, maybe he isn't a threat. Sort of like all those nuclear missiles in Russia that no one is using.


realAlbertan

Jan 13, 13 7:44

Post #246 of 390 (3576 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [adal] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Look at a map buddy. Alberta is not in the US and I am not an American. Part of Suttons punishment was a lifetime coaching ban which he has circumvented by leaving Australian jurisdiction. By continuing to coach the message he sends is I dont give a fuck what the judge says, I'll just do my thing where nobody can do anything about it. Sutton and Cecil Russell are very similar in this way.
___________________________________________
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realAlbertan

Jan 13, 13 7:47

Post #247 of 390 (3567 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Except he replied to my post and I'm not American. In fact my home province is part of my screen name. Shane Hooks gets it right.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/.../opinion/sutton.html
___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M - 400 & 1500 m Freestyle/200 m Butterfly


styrrell

Jan 13, 13 7:59

Post #248 of 390 (3542 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Maybe because they know as I do that there is no risk.

You can't possible know that. Sutton can't possibly know that. Do you think if you asked Sutton when he started coaching mnors if he would ever rape one he would have answered, "Of Course"? I strongly suspect he would have answered absolutely no, and that would have been his honest assessment of himself.
Styrrell


ZingUK

Jan 13, 13 8:52

Post #249 of 390 (3475 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

BDoughtie wrote:
I'm not even saying he's acting in any predatory like tendencies. But he's convicted of harming an minor and for you to justify it seemingly because the world is full of children and we can't ban him from all contact is troubling. When he is in an situation where others are willingly putting him in contact with minors/scholarly juniors, that is something that can be stopped.

I don't know why it's troubling, it is just a fact that unless you lock him up in cell he will come into contact with minors, that's not justifying anything he did and I've been vocal in here saying I fully agree that he shouldn't be coaching minors in any capacity but for me I have no issue with him coaching adults. I was also pointing no matter what job he does (short of him being locked in a cell as mentioned above) then there will inevitably be occassions he will come into contact with minors. I'm sorry but much as you would like it that is simply unavoidable in every day life irrespective of job. So you tell me what job you think he should do and how that job would prevent any interactions you deem unsuitable?

It troubles me some of the absolutist (and I'm not necessarily saying you) draconian views on this thread, many of these people would do well living in Saudi Arabi as that's also a pretty screwed up culture with absolutist tendancies


BDoughtie

Jan 13, 13 9:03

Post #250 of 390 (3450 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

So you have no issue with him taking 10 trips to brazil with the intent of working/producing a junior triathlon program? Again, I'm in no way saying what he can or can't do as a coach. But if you can't see that I think having him in situations that people are knowingly having him come in contact with juniors in a triathlon setting and excusing it because he is not "directly" coaching them is questionable, then I don't know what to tell you.

Again, I'm calling out his work and his continued questionable work with juniors that even teamTBB is ok'ing because he has no "direct" coaching. I don't think it's a good idea for him to work or be involved in any capacity with juniors. If that's totalitarian mindset, maybe that needs to be reexamined.

But I'm shocked people are saying its cool he is still involved with junior development within the sport because he isn't directly coaching youth.

Eta: I'm arguing the intent of allowing access to sutton in any junior capacity is wrong and I'd hope he'd not be allowed to interact with them in any capacity that relates to triathlon. He clearly is or has been still working with juniors in some capacity, I'm completly against that.
------------------
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http://www.aomultisport.com


(This post was edited by BDoughtie on Jan 13, 13 9:14)


AlwaysCurious

Jan 13, 13 9:21

Post #251 of 390 (3151 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

ZingUK wrote:
BDoughtie wrote:

I'm not even saying he's acting in any predatory like tendencies. But he's convicted of harming an minor and for you to justify it seemingly because the world is full of children and we can't ban him from all contact is troubling. When he is in an situation where others are willingly putting him in contact with minors/scholarly juniors, that is something that can be stopped.


I don't know why it's troubling, it is just a fact that unless you lock him up in cell he will come into contact with minors, that's not justifying anything he did and I've been vocal in here saying I fully agree that he shouldn't be coaching minors in any capacity but for me I have no issue with him coaching adults. I was also pointing no matter what job he does (short of him being locked in a cell as mentioned above) then there will inevitably be occassions he will come into contact with minors. I'm sorry but much as you would like it that is simply unavoidable in every day life irrespective of job. So you tell me what job you think he should do and how that job would prevent any interactions you deem unsuitable?

It troubles me some of the absolutist (and I'm not necessarily saying you) draconian views on this thread, many of these people would do well living in Saudi Arabi as that's also a pretty screwed up culture with absolutist tendancies

It's not inherently physical proximity to children that's a problem--it's having a position of power over children that's a big problem. An adult with power over a child can coerce the child into doing something that otherwise would take brute force. A couple of examples of powerful positions:
  • A school teacher has power over children, because he can adversely affect their grades.
  • A police officer has power over children, because he can threaten them with arrest.
  • A head coach has power over children, because he can threaten their place on a team.
Someone who has incidental proximity to children in a public place has no inherent power over them, and very little opportunity to harm them. A few examples:
  • A cashier will interact with children, but has no power over them, and the interaction is in a public place.
  • An architect might interact with clients' children (who accompany their parents to a meeting), but has no power over them. Plus their parents are present.
See the difference? One set of situations puts the children in a position of vulnerability; their well-being relies on trusting the adult. The second set does not increase their vulnerability; they're either in a public place, or they are accompanied by their parents.


BDoughtie

Jan 13, 13 9:23

Post #252 of 390 (3147 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

It's clear to me that teamTBB is cool with sutton interacting or being involved in juniors as long as he is not directly coaching them. I just question an organization that gives him access in any manner. That's all. By continuing to coach adults it affords him the opportunity to actively engage with juniors in some type of advisor/management position. That's their company line with this. I was just surprised they allow him in any format to engage juniors.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


ZingUK

Jan 13, 13 9:24

Post #253 of 390 (3145 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

BDoughtie wrote:
So you have no issue with him taking 10 trips to brazil with the intent of working/producing a junior triathlon program? Again, I'm in no way saying what he can or can't do as a coach. But if you can't see that I think having him in situations that people are knowingly having him come in contact with juniors in a triathlon setting and excusing it because he is not "directly" coaching them is questionable, then I don't know what to tell you.

Again, I'm calling out his work and his continued questionable work with juniors that even teamTBB is ok'ing because he has no "direct" coaching. I don't think it's a good idea for him to work or be involved in any capacity with juniors. If that's totalitarian mindset, maybe that needs to be reexamined.

But I'm shocked people are saying its cool he is still involved with junior development within the sport because he isn't directly coaching youth.

Eta: I'm arguing the intent of allowing access to sutton in any junior capacity is wrong and I'd hope he'd not be allowed to interact with them in any capacity that relates to triathlon. He clearly is or has been still working with juniors in some capacity, I'm completly against that.

I think we have crossed wires Brookes, yes I have a problem with him going to Brazil if it is specifically or incidently to coach a junior triathlon programme as hands on coach. I have stated and will state again I do not think he should be coaching or working with minors in anyway.

If he is advising other coaches who then coach the kids without directly working with the kids I have no issue with that, I honeslty don't see how that can harm the kids if he's not there with them, irrespective of his past his ideas on coaching are still pertinent, whether you agree or disagree with his methods is an entirely seperate point.


aerobike

Jan 13, 13 9:24

Post #254 of 390 (3144 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

avagoyamug wrote:

TravisT wrote:


Just to add to the already disturbing things this guy writes, he is a triathlon "coach" and has a daughter.


Indeed I am and I do Sherlock. And I would leave my daughter with Brett Sutton in a heart beat. He made a mistake and I know he would never do harm to her or any other girl again. I have 100% confidence in that.


I would not however want her under the influence or regular presence of someone like yourself.

This is what Brett Sutton did to a 14 year old girl. It wasn't a mistake. It was premeditated. It was deliberate. It was intentional. And it happened on several occasions. You would trust your daughter with this person?! You seem to have some warped way of assessing the safety of your daughter.


"The first offence occurred when the swimmer was staying at Sutton's house, and the coach joined her in bed. 'She states that she was very scared and didn't know how to handle the situation and she knew it was wrong,' the prosecution said.


Another offence happened when Sutton was massaging the girl. 'As he was rubbing her leg he moved his hand further towards her groin and he put one of his fingers in her vagina,' the court was told.


The other counts included one where Sutton picked the girl up from school, took her to an underground car park and forced her to give him oral sex in the back of the van. 'She tried to lift her head but his hand was at the back of her head,' the court was told. 'She recalls him saying things like 'You're good at this'. She states that she felt like it was something she was supposed to be doing because he made her feel like it's the right thing to do.'



avagoyamug

Jan 13, 13 12:04

Post #255 of 390 (3002 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [TravisT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

TravisT wrote:
avagoyamug wrote:

TravisT wrote:


Just to add to the already disturbing things this guy writes, he is a triathlon "coach" and has a daughter.


Indeed I am and I do Sherlock. And I would leave my daughter with Brett Sutton in a heart beat. He made a mistake and I know he would never do harm to her or any other girl again. I have 100% confidence in that.


I would not however want her under the influence or regular presence of someone like yourself.


I feel bad for your daughter that you would feel comfortable leaving her with some who is a convicted child molester and who's victim said the kind of things about him that she did. Well on your way to father of the year award there. Not really surprising given your general attitude towards right and wrong when you're the kind of guy who feels no qualms abusing a race official and cutting a penalty in a race when you can get away with it and boasting after. I'm am as anti-religious and gun as they come but some things are simply right or wrong. Your concept of which is obviously skewed.


You are a very vindictive bitter and small minded and sad individual. Pretty messed up and for sure would not want my daughter to be exposed regularly to the way your mind works.

Glad you enjoyed my blog though! Bet that money shot of the 4.37 bike split burned. I can see how your moral compass is twisted all around when you are able to twist what happened and what I wrote into what you posted here.

You have zero credibility and would be best crawling back into your little hole.


(This post was edited by avagoyamug on Jan 13, 13 13:24)


avagoyamug

Jan 13, 13 12:13

Post #256 of 390 (2991 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [aerobike] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

aerobike wrote:
avagoyamug wrote:

TravisT wrote:


Just to add to the already disturbing things this guy writes, he is a triathlon "coach" and has a daughter.


Indeed I am and I do Sherlock. And I would leave my daughter with Brett Sutton in a heart beat. He made a mistake and I know he would never do harm to her or any other girl again. I have 100% confidence in that.


I would not however want her under the influence or regular presence of someone like yourself.

This is what Brett Sutton did to a 14 year old girl. It wasn't a mistake. It was premeditated. It was deliberate. It was intentional. And it happened on several occasions. You would trust your daughter with this person?! You seem to have some warped way of assessing the safety of your daughter.


"The first offence occurred when the swimmer was staying at Sutton's house, and the coach joined her in bed. 'She states that she was very scared and didn't know how to handle the situation and she knew it was wrong,' the prosecution said.


Another offence happened when Sutton was massaging the girl. 'As he was rubbing her leg he moved his hand further towards her groin and he put one of his fingers in her vagina,' the court was told.


The other counts included one where Sutton picked the girl up from school, took her to an underground car park and forced her to give him oral sex in the back of the van. 'She tried to lift her head but his hand was at the back of her head,' the court was told. 'She recalls him saying things like 'You're good at this'. She states that she felt like it was something she was supposed to be doing because he made her feel like it's the right thing to do.'

You do realize this was one incident 30 some years ago? There are many life long paedophiles who should be kept away from kids at all costs.

It's face palmingly obvious that Sutton is not one of them.

The Slow-Twit lynch mob still won't miss a chance to gather together on their horses flame in hand, ready to string up whoever has been designated the witch of the day.

Pathetic.


avagoyamug

Jan 13, 13 12:22

Post #257 of 390 (2972 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

BDoughtie wrote:
No offense but seeing how you have done nothing to identify yourself in the forum, whether you think he is a risk or not a risk, does it really mean much?

Now if you want to identify yourself and how you are relevant to this particular issue, then your view would atleast hold some validity. Until then not so much.

ETA: and my view means very little, but if we can have an discussion on the topic then if you are willing to say he isn't a risk without identifying how you can verify that, then it's really an non point.


Does anything all the chest thumpers say on this forum mean very much? Identified or not?

Just because I have a different point of view to the lynch mob you expect me to identify and justify myself? Why don't you ask these who would burn him at the stake for something he did 30 years ago to justify their stance? Sutton is obviously not a life long paedophile. They leave a trail in their wake. It was a one off. The group think here wont accept that, but it's the bare cold truth.


(This post was edited by avagoyamug on Jan 13, 13 13:25)


avagoyamug

Jan 13, 13 12:26

Post #258 of 390 (2962 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [TravisT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

TravisT wrote:
avagoyamug wrote:

TravisT wrote:


Just to add to the already disturbing things this guy writes, he is a triathlon "coach" and has a daughter.


Indeed I am and I do Sherlock. And I would leave my daughter with Brett Sutton in a heart beat. He made a mistake and I know he would never do harm to her or any other girl again. I have 100% confidence in that.


I would not however want her under the influence or regular presence of someone like yourself.


I feel bad for your daughter that you would feel comfortable leaving her with some who is a convicted child molester and who's victim said the kind of things about him that she did. Well on your way to father of the year award there. Not really surprising given your general attitude towards right and wrong when you're the kind of guy who feels no qualms abusing a race official and cutting a penalty in a race when you can get away with it and boasting after. I'm am as anti-religious and gun as they come but some things are simply right or wrong. Your concept of which is obviously skewed.


You seem to be very quick to defend Michael Weiss and other dopers though? You are the one with the twisted morality you sad little vindictive red neck wannabe bully. Keep searching me online, and try and find some more dirt on me. Seems like you have a history of passing your time that way. Knock yourself out.


(This post was edited by avagoyamug on Jan 13, 13 13:30)


realAlbertan

Jan 13, 13 12:38

Post #259 of 390 (2935 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

After reading all the apoligies for him I'm just sickened. Parents lined up to have their kids coached by Cecil Russell just shows how morals go out the window when advancement is on the line. The grey area with Russell is his top swimmers are his own kids.
___________________________________________
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M - 400 & 1500 m Freestyle/200 m Butterfly


devashish_paul

Jan 13, 13 12:41

Post #260 of 390 (2927 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Can we all step away from making all of this personal and the name calling and refrain from the personal bashing and instead just engage in an intellectual discussion about the topic at hand?


If we can summarize this thread (or the discussion that spawned after the OP):

  • Sutton banned from coaching any age group in Oz for his crime in the past
  • By all accounts he has not repeated his crime.
  • He has chosen to coach in countries that don't care to reciprocate (or can't reciprocate) the Aussie coaching ban
  • Almost everyone who posted agrees that he should not coach minors
  • Some also say (just like Triathlon Australia) that he should not coach any age group, having transgressed a fundamental responsibility of a coach
  • Other feel that everyone deserves a second chance in life, and to reform, and once reform they should be able to return in a limited capacity to their profession (in this case coaching), provided that he is not put in a position where he was when he committed the crime on the first round (coach minors).
  • Lots of high caliber athletes ranging from Chrissie Wellington down to entry level pros have entrusted their athletic development to him at some point in their career knowing the background and either believing in second chances, or putting their career growth ahead of that and being willing to look beyond that based on the man they have engaged with "today"
  • Team TBB has entrusted the head coach position in their organization to him noting the past and believing in second chances. According to TBB, he does not directly coach any minors in their athlete development program. Many on ST feel that his position at the helm of the organization still provides him with a position of authority over these minors and are against it.
  • Finally as Mr. Bok mentioned, Sutton is gradually moving away from hands on coaching, sadly due to health not being optimal (I think we can all agree that we wish all humans good health...at least I hope so).

Did I miss anything in the last ~ 100 posts?

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styrrell

Jan 13, 13 13:04

Post #261 of 390 (2910 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Yes, based on the picture of Sutton surrounded by underage children, he clearly is in close proximity to children in an official TBB capacity.
Styrrell


MeltingPot

Jan 13, 13 13:08

Post #262 of 390 (2905 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [styrrell] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

styrrell wrote:
Yes, based on the picture of Sutton surrounded by underage children, he clearly is in close proximity to children in an official TBB capacity.
i have a picture i took with then president clinton. i guess that means i am/was involved in an official capacity with the presidency?


BDoughtie

Jan 13, 13 13:48

Post #263 of 390 (2828 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Just because I have a different point of view to the lynch mob you expect me to identify and justify myself?

_______________

When you make a point that you know for certain Sutton isnt a risk, you lose all credibility when you then dont really identify yourself. So that was why I was asking, it would help if we could understand why you make that point. Now if you simply want to make a counter point, sure it doesn't really matter, but when you make an assertive statement like you did, well it would help if it had a face behind the answer so to speak. I guess what I'm asking is, who are you to make that type of statement? Considering you didnt really go into detail on how you came about that statement, thus I was suggesting, it would help. But if you dont want to, no worries, just makes it a very hollow statement/point.

ETA: I dont really care if you identify yourself or not, but if you make a point that you know for certain of his risk, it certainly helps to let others know why you feel so certain of that statement. Thus, why I thought it would be more helpful if you identified how you can be so certain that Sutton isnt a risk. It atleast gives some background to your message. I think you stated you were a coach in another post, so I'm assuming you have worked with him in some recent capacity.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


(This post was edited by BDoughtie on Jan 13, 13 13:54)


avagoyamug

Jan 13, 13 13:56

Post #264 of 390 (2801 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

devashish_paul wrote:
Can we all step away from making all of this personal and the name calling and refrain from the personal bashing and instead just engage in an intellectual discussion about the topic at hand?


If we can summarize this thread (or the discussion that spawned after the OP):

  • Sutton banned from coaching any age group in Oz for his crime in the past
  • By all accounts he has not repeated his crime.
  • He has chosen to coach in countries that don't care to reciprocate (or can't reciprocate) the Aussie coaching ban
  • Almost everyone who posted agrees that he should not coach minors
  • Some also say (just like Triathlon Australia) that he should not coach any age group, having transgressed a fundamental responsibility of a coach
  • Other feel that everyone deserves a second chance in life, and to reform, and once reform they should be able to return in a limited capacity to their profession (in this case coaching), provided that he is not put in a position where he was when he committed the crime on the first round (coach minors).
  • Lots of high caliber athletes ranging from Chrissie Wellington down to entry level pros have entrusted their athletic development to him at some point in their career knowing the background and either believing in second chances, or putting their career growth ahead of that and being willing to look beyond that based on the man they have engaged with "today"
  • Team TBB has entrusted the head coach position in their organization to him noting the past and believing in second chances. According to TBB, he does not directly coach any minors in their athlete development program. Many on ST feel that his position at the helm of the organization still provides him with a position of authority over these minors and are against it.
  • Finally as Mr. Bok mentioned, Sutton is gradually moving away from hands on coaching, sadly due to health not being optimal (I think we can all agree that we wish all humans good health...at least I hope so).

Did I miss anything in the last ~ 100 posts?


And the fact that keeping Sutton from coaching children is to prevent the suggestion of impropriety those who know the man and a lot about his history know there is no actual risk to the child.


(This post was edited by avagoyamug on Jan 13, 13 14:21)


avagoyamug

Jan 13, 13 13:59

Post #265 of 390 (2793 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

BDoughtie wrote:
Just because I have a different point of view to the lynch mob you expect me to identify and justify myself?

_______________

When you make a point that you know for certain Sutton isnt a risk, you lose all credibility when you then dont really identify yourself. So that was why I was asking, it would help if we could understand why you make that point. Now if you simply want to make a counter point, sure it doesn't really matter, but when you make an assertive statement like you did, well it would help if it had a face behind the answer so to speak. I guess what I'm asking is, who are you to make that type of statement? Considering you didnt really go into detail on how you came about that statement, thus I was suggesting, it would help. But if you dont want to, no worries, just makes it a very hollow statement/point.

ETA: I dont really care if you identify yourself or not, but if you make a point that you know for certain of his risk, it certainly helps to let others know why you feel so certain of that statement. Thus, why I thought it would be more helpful if you identified how you can be so certain that Sutton isnt a risk. It atleast gives some background to your message. I think you stated you were a coach in another post, so I'm assuming you have worked with him in some recent capacity.

Who are the faceless judges who want to wring him up and are grandiose about how shocked and disgusted they are?

I am just using a touch of common sense to state that Sutton is no longer a risk. Read about him for a while use some rational, non-emotional thought processes and I find it hard that anyone could come up with any other opinion.


realAlbertan

Jan 13, 13 14:03

Post #266 of 390 (2782 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Wow.
___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M - 400 & 1500 m Freestyle/200 m Butterfly


BDoughtie

Jan 13, 13 14:06

Post #267 of 390 (2776 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I sat down and read about him for 2 hours last night. I think he's done amazing things and has alot to offer coaches. He'd be a great resource with dealing with the dangers of coaching juniors. While reading about him on his team website, it shocked me that he's still allowed to work with juniors in the capacity he does now. I would have thought/assumed that he and the people around him would simply say "I cant be around this environment" and not have any episodes that put him in contact with juniors within the sport. But as you say, he seems to be a low/no risk (ETA: but how do we really know) and because he doenst directly coach juniors, he's given what teamTBB thinks is the appropriate degree of contact with juniors. I just think that's complete BS. But you and others think it's the appropriate sanctions that it's enough as long as he doesnt "directly" coach juniors. So he can be in a room full of 30 junior athletes with another coach, and he can do PR shoots for his team with juniors, but as long as that 1-1 isnt there, it's apparently ok? That to me is unfortunate for everyone involved.

ETA: I understand your point of view. I think in this type of instance and setting, when an junior athlete is harmed, I dont think there really is ever a 2nd chance. That's only in terms of working/developing junior athletes, but for you and some, that designation seemingly has to be defined. For me, there is no definition, if an junior athlete is part of the program, I would atleast think that said coach simply cant be part of that program. You disagree, and fair enough. I'm curious what junior program teamTBB started in the US. I looked on the website, and couldnt really find much info on it.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


(This post was edited by BDoughtie on Jan 13, 13 14:25)


styrrell

Jan 13, 13 14:14

Post #268 of 390 (2754 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [MeltingPot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thats an incredibly bad analogy. The Sutton pic was from TBB talking about Brett Suttons involvement. A better analogy would be if you said MeltingPot has never met President Clinton, then had the pic of you and him shaking hands on your FB age.
Styrrell


ironpsych

Jan 13, 13 14:48

Post #269 of 390 (2695 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I wish I would have posted this earlier as I think it may have done a little bit clarify my own feelings and help educate others. At this point I think it will only reach an ever dwindling list of viewers who are entrenched in their positions but it may help just a little.

We have spent much of this thread talking about/criticizing Sutton and the people who support him but have not spent a lot of time talking about the victim other than the "she's fine" thing.

I work exclusively with children and teens in my profession. I see these victims on a regular basis and I see the psychological impact that these crimes produce. They are not benign instances that victims move away from over time. They have a lifelong impact on their self image, their intimate relationships and their ongoing sexual development.

I agree with most of what Bok said regarding his wife's experience. Victims do need to come to terms with the anger and shame and other strong emotions that are associated with their victimization. That is the process of healing. It is the only way to heal but that does not make it go away. Even after processing the emotional aspects (which usually takes years if not decades) they are left with the memories of the abuse. They are forever (yes, forever) left with the images of the abuse and on a likely daily basis face some environmental cue that could trigger these memories (a song, a smell, a spoken phrase). They pay a LIFELONG price for another's "indiscretion".

Often times women don't even begin to come to terms with what has happened to them until decades later (30, 40 yrs later). Often times they just try to forget about it and "go on with their lives". But after their children have left the home and their life has slowed down (maybe retired) it is often harder to keep the thoughts away and they start having significant problems. Anxiety, depression, nightmares, symptoms of PTSD, etc. And their quality of life diminishing greatly. Often times this can be triggered by the death of the abuser or other emotional triggers. They often seek help but sometimes do not. My own mother was a victim of abuse at the hands of her Stepfather (at around the age of Sutton"s victim). He messed with her sister as well. So he had "only" two victims. And she had a great life. Two wonderful kids (if I may say so myself), many friends and a good husband. She worked hard, often with two jobs and was very active in civic groups. But once we left and her life slowed, she started having severe panic attacks (often hiding in a closet at her work). It was at this time that she disclosed she was a victim and that these thoughts/memories were becoming more prominent. I have seen the same with other women during my Adult training.

Child victims often have much more complex and lifelong problems than adult victims of rape (not downplaying that at all). They often feel responsible for the act ("I shouldn't have done xyz") and therefore carry significantly more guilt and shame. 25% of American women (yes, that high) have been molested in some way as children. And 90% of child victims are abused by people they know, trust and even love so this betrayal often has a lifelong impact on their ability to form intimate relationships and this can often lead to significant self loathing and self abuse (etoh, drugs, sabotaging relationship for fear if intimacy). And a victim of a prominent personality in the community further complicates their feelings and ability to overcome because they have deal with things like- "That Sutton is such a great guy". "Who wouldn't you like to be coached by Sutton". "Man, I would love to work the that guy, he's the best". Try swallowing that pill on a routine basis. And I'm sure that happens ALL the time to this woman who is married to "top Australian triathlete" who hangs out with nothing but triathletes who undoubtedly do not know that she was Sutton's victim. Wonder is she tries to avoid these situations?

Child victims are at significantly increased risk of developing a depressive disorder, an anxiety disorder, an eating disorder and a substance abuse disorder (often occurring in conjunction). Not to mention the expected Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. And this is an increased LIFETIME risk. Not for a couple of years but FOREVER! There is no way to predict what effect this event will have on this woman 10, 20 yrs from NOW. Hopefully nothing as I would like to hope that she has gotten the help she has needed.

Is a child molester who has a single victim a different breed than a serial offender. "I" would say yes. But no matter who many victims a child molester leaves in his wake to the victim of the abuse there is always only one victim. "Me".

Should Sutton be "forgiven"? That is up to the victim and how she chooses to process and work through her feelings (and hopefully she is/has getting help). But his actions shouldn't be forgotten.

Should he be chased from all professions and be a beggar on the street. No. Does he deserve to have a happy life, kids a successful career. Some would say yes. Some no. I think he does but with same sort of frequent reminders of his actions that his victim likely has.

Should Sutton face a lifetime of having to frequently respond to his past crime. Absolutely. And should those who support him (Brandon, Jordan, et al.) be required to justify why they support him and possibly get ridiculed and get "angry that this keeps coming up". Absolutely. They know his history and therefore "took on" the criticism. Should people who employ him be forced to come on ST and other venues to make defenses for his employment. And should those that employ him be policed to ensure that he does not have contact with minors. Absolutely.

These things do not "hurt" Sutton. Are they annoying to people who support him and maybe to him. Probably. But that is also the price that he has to pay for his past crime. Many criminals face a lifetime of "annoying things". Parole, not being able to vote, not purchasing firearms, etc. I think it is very justified and necessary that this continues to resurface. It is an equitable punishment for molesting a child who now has to deal with the fallout for the rest of HER life. And HE should face a lifetime of scrutiny just as she has to face of lifetime of memories. Again, this does not "hurt" Sutton. Annoying, frustrating sure but he's obviously "doing fine" so to speak. Should his "quality of life" be a little bit less than others. Absolutely. Similar to his victims "quality of life" likely being a little less due to memories, need for therapy, difficulty with relationships, etc.

And based solely on information gained from this post (accounts of the actual molestation, disregard for sanctions, etc). I have my doubts that he is actually repentant. I would be more convinced if he started a non-profit to help teen victims of abuse or was instrumental in developing a sport wide youth monitoring/reporting system in his native Australia or other country that would demonstrate that he has an understanding of how much damage he has done and was actively engaged in preventing it from happening to others. I have not heard of such but would be much more convinced that he has that understanding if this were so.

Should he be able to coach. Sure. Should he (and those that support him) continue to receive criticism for a crime (or their support) that permanently changed someone's life. Absolutely. Sounds like a MORE than fair trade off. Others may say differently.


Diabolo

Jan 13, 13 15:11

Post #270 of 390 (2662 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

What part of "he doesn't work with chidren anymore" do you not understand?

Alex came here to explain how it works, and you guys are still bringing up your belief (based on one photo, really?) that he works with children still.

Apparently, he is working with up-and-coming coaches, so that they can benefit from his vast knowledge of coaching in Triathlon, so that ultimately many kids benefit from it down the line. In the process (while travelling to Brazil or some other place to work with those coaches), he did a photo with the kids.

Also, most people who have met him, talked to him, interacted with him, all seem to be willing to give him a second chance. It is of course much easier to take the super hard stance that some of you do when you don't know anything about the person (and/or also in many cases not knowing the finer details of what happened 25 years ago, and what has happened since).

Anyway, keep flaming away.


Bok

Jan 13, 13 15:18

Post #271 of 390 (2652 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [TravisT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I have kept quiet on this forum for the past 3 years, as it wasn’t for me.

Today I will come clean with you all about some things that need to be cleared once and for all.

I have been involved in the sport of triathlon for 16 years. Ten years while I was a banking executive where I simply trained 12-15 hours a week besides an 80-hour working week to keep my life a little in balance. I had no coach, I did not read a magazines, I happily did not know about slowtwitch and I was just an average triathlete happy to complete a race, work and love his wife, family and friends.

Over a span of 17 years, I did well in banking and reached the title of Managing Director in the largest bank in South East Asia earning a little fortune each year, but I was not happy. The higher the ranks in banking I reached, the more I started to see of the system it is and the less I liked what I was part of. The credit card and unsecured lending business we implemented and operated across Asia at exorbitant interest rates, providing loans to gamblers, taxi drivers, young people who got into deep trouble with their lives because of banks pushing these products into the lives of people who should not receive them. The long and short, we were robbing people and pushing them to the edge, and I wont’ go into what I’ve seen in the banking world the past few years as everyone one of you have been able to see for yourself how the greed as reached levels we can not comprehend and it will continue until we finally stop accepting fines to financial institution, but do what should be done: criminal prosecution of those that get caught!

So I left banking in 2006 and started a bike store The Bike Boutique in Singapore. We introduced a bike-to-work concept (bikelodging) and the store started to do very well. We opened stores in other countries and cities and we were on track to actually franchise the concept oversees. In order to create a much wider brand reach, I wanted to sponsor a team and picked triathlon as the right sport for it. But more important than the TBB bike stores, the environmental drive was my strong desire to give back to those in need through sports. A few people actively introduced me to a man called Brett Sutton. I did not know the man, I did not recognize one athlete he had ever trained except for Greg and Laura Bennett who I once met at the Phuket Laguna Triathlon, I did not know his past.

We spoke for a few times on the phone and initially I could not even get past his Australian accent, but Brett had a vision about life, a desire to help people, a bit of dislike of corporate people like me who were all out filling their own pockets at the expense of others.

I liked what I heard, as I had gotten to a point in my life that I wanted to make sure my life had a more meaningful purpose, was filled with more love and compassion instead of material possessions. I wanted to live a life that could enable me to contribute beyond myself.

Two months before a meeting we were trying to set up, I started to do some research on the coach and person Brett Sutton online. I was shocked when I first read all the articles on the internet and trust me I read more than any one of you have ever read on him.

I spoke to many male and female athletes from the past and present who had been in contact with Brett throughout their career. I spoke to coaches involved, studied the actual court case and proceedings. I discussed the topic many times with my wife who is victim of sexual, emotional and physical abuse herself.

I decided to meet the man with some 15 people of all walks of life to see if we could define in a 1-page document a common vision of what we wanted to achieve, our mission, our values, what we wanted to offer, to who and what would be our ultimate commitment. At the same time, this also allowed me to get to know in-depth the person so many people on this forum rather see burried than alive.

During these meetings, I heard athletes like Bella Bayliss, Reinaldo Colucci, Rebecca Preston and Stephen Bayliss talk about this man Brett Sutton. Not many on this forum will understand what their coach has meant for them in their lives. Just like you can ask any of your favorite female triathlon athletes to come on this forum and explain what this broken man has meant to them, not just as an athlete, but as a human being, it would not help some of the eternal cynics here to even listen and open their hearts for just a second. Brett himself has asked all of his athletes to never write anything on this or any other forum, as he felt they should not defend him because he feels he is guilty as charged.

So back to December 2006, I took another 3 days of non-stop to talk with Brett Sutton one-on-one, I asked him any question that I wanted to ask, he explained in every detail to me about his upbringing, his life, his problems, his achievements, his regrets, his pain and the circumstances under which he made the biggest mistake in his life ever. I wanted to know, not the high level stuff, but EVERY detail, so I could form my opinion about this man, his sins, his true desire to help others, his passion for his little girls, 3 kids and his wife and just THE FACTS. After a few more days I invited Brett Sutton to my house, so my wife, a victim herself, a pshychologist and a person that turned the pain of her experiences into a super powerful way of healing herself and running a successful practice (www.healingtransformations.com) where she now helps other victims to overcome their pain and horror.

To my surprise, my wife who is extremely intuitive about people, told me after one hour “Alex, you should work with Brett as he is a very special man and he is serious about helping other people, with one and one intend only: to do good for people and to help him make up for the mistake he has made in his life. He is NOT a repeat offender, he is NOT a predator, he is NOT a child molester. He is a smart man, with some serious problems in his youth, he run into trouble into his mid twenties and made a fatal mistake under the pressure and like man do at times, he followed his dick and not his mind. Alex, I know he is not what some people on the internet are trying to portrait him as, you have my blessing and support to work with him”.

Would I ever want to hurt my wife, who I love dearly and has been exposed to 6 years of abuse and had turned her life around in a miraculous manner herself?

She has never done a triathlon, knew nothing about the people Brett has coached to become world champions, and she did not care about that at all, she simply looked at his heart and the chance he could make the same mistake again.

I decided by mid December 2006 I was going to work with Brett Sutton in teamTBB and asked him also to advise me on business and social program matters, as Brett had set up more social sports programs than most people in triathlon will ever do. Brett understand the sport of triathlon better than any and on a very profound level that goes way further than some private equity funds guys who just try to make a quick buck out of this lifestyle sport.

It’s a lot easier for me today to come clean about all this, as now 6 years later I have closed my business thanks to a morally bankrupt company called WTC for not honoring a signed 5 year agreement for my business to operate all Ironman Stores in Asia Pacific based on a profit split arrangement. So there is no more business called TBB.

All that is left is teamTBB as a social program and non-profit organization with a mission to improve the lives of youth around the world by providing hope and opportunity through sports. TBB really means The Best we can Be and we say NO to Drugs, we say NO to Violence, we say NO to obesity and will expand teamTBB to take this message into more and more communities around the world. We use triathlon as a vehicle to spread the message, but our program is a lot less about triathlon than many people are aware of. The fact our team produces about 1 in 4 ironman champions around the world has made the public think at times, all we care about is winning more race.

So let me be very clear with any one on this forum, and for me that means first and foremost I care about any one that is victim him or herself of sexual abuse. I really can’t be bothered about the handful of guys (you know who you are) that love to beat up just any one on a forum under a hidden name, and often cry in their hearts as the only place they can be a hero is here on an anonymous basis.

I’m NOT defending Brett Sutton, nor any person that committed a similar or worse act, I strongly as possible disapprove of it!

I hold the highest respect for the dignity of women, not to even say the dignity of a child.

In my previous answer I addressed from my heart my response to victims across the world.

I want to believe that deep down inside, everyone who has attacked Brett in this forum wants the absolute truth and justice and I respect that.

So therefore, please allow me to respond now to those attacking Brett and ask ourselves if deep down inside what we want is the truth or to just continue to attack a human being who, when transgressed, did not defend himself by attacking but humbly admitted his enormous wrong and accepted the consequences it would bring.

AGAIN, I don't excuse Brett in any way, but I often ask myself if in that position would I have taken the high road he did or would I had tried to somehow justify or find reasons for my transgression, KNOWING that I would be thrown in a basket that does not really tells all the truth.

I pray that everyone in this forum who attacked Brett deep down inside seek within themselves if their aim is to expose a predator in their mind or is there any other motive.

Without diminishing the seriousness of his offence or trying to defend Brett in any way shape or form, for the sake of truth, honesty and transparency allow me now to address some words being used in this forum.

When we call a person a predator, a rapist and a child molester, we need to ask ourselves if those words are truly representative of the person we are giving those terms to.

In the case of Brett Sutton, a 27-year old coach who abused his position of authority as a coach with a 14-year old swimmer is wrong and will never be justified! But to call Brett a predator, child molester now after 27 years of showing he is anything but that, after 27 years of coaching some of the most public female athletes of our sport’s history, athletes that love Brett and athletes that don't like Brett. Female Athletes that have giving him their whole trust and have placed their careers in his hands and whom today say all kinds of things when talking about Brett, some good, some bad, BUT NONE have ever called him a child molester, a predator or rapist. In the contrary EVERY SINGLE one of these female athletes have said the contrary. Every single one of these female athletes knew about his past at the get go, not in retrospect.

Thus, we can say that Brett Sutton committed a horrible mistake, but that he one day as a 27 year old young man premeditated to go on an rape someone, no one will ever say this, not his endorsers or his attackers if we all seek truth.

It’s hard for me to understand, or anyone who has ever taken the time to know the man, to ever look at him in the light that his attackers look at him. Its sad that in a world where we have all fallen short of what is expected of us, in a world that everyone, without exception, has done things in their youth that we regret with all our hearts, in a world where convicted murders are set free because the system says that they have changed, in a world where we would like to think that every human being is owed another chance, we cant forgive, or even look deep at all the facts, and give a broken man a second chance.

What we need to be asking ourselves is what has happened in the 27 years since Brett chose not to defend himself (going against the advice of many around him at that time), chose to suffer the consequences of his actions for life. What we find is a simple broken men with a great gift to create great athletes but more important to care of about them as human beings. A coach who has invested in the lives of hundreds of athletes, great ones and mediocre ones at the same time, and for WHAT? Riches, well, I am here to vouch that Brett Sutton lives in a humble apartment and drives a car that the majority of us would not be caught dead in and not enough money for his wife to pay two months of bills should he pass. A man who does what he does simply because he loves our sport and loves people. This is not a predator, this is not a child molester this a broken human being who made a horrible mistake, and who has lived 27 years after this mistake in the pain of hearing these horrible titles given to him.

I have learned the internet is both a great tool and also a devastating weapon that can be used on people who can not defend themselves. This forum is at times a very good example of the dangers of that weapon, as articles of the past are freely passed as if it happened yesterday, while in fact it was 27 years ago. You can say “hey it happened!” and I respond “Yes it did, and it’s said it happened!” But people, if people no matter what they did are not given a second chance, if we can’t open the door to our heart to any one that made a mistake, then those people should ask themselves if they never made a mistake and if they would not want to be forgiven for their sins likewise.

God knows that we will all be judged by our actions and how we impact the live of another human being for the good or the bad. If what Brett did he had done again, just one more time, I would not ever be associated with him, but as hard as it was for me to learn what he had done, it has been a journey to know this man and every day be impacted by the quality of human being he is.

I ask everyone here today to ask themselves if their life is so pure, clean and beyond reproach that we have the right to attack the character of another simple, broken human being who made a horrible mistake, and not justify it, nor defended himself but admitted the wrong, took the penalty, suffered and suffers the consequences and for 27 years has shown us everything and anything but that he is a child molester or predator. Where does forgiveness begin, where does redemption begin, we who attack and accuse others with such malignancy must know that one day we will be in that same mirror.

Before I finish, I like to ask the same people who had the guts to explore a bit deeper than most such as Brandon March, Jordan Rapp or Johnny O, who now get beaten up or attacked too because they so called “support Brett Sutton”.

These 3 guys all explored much more who this guy Brett Sutton REALLY IS, what he stands for, what he does in life, what he does for other people and then they objectively try to put a bit of perspective into the conversation. What do they get back? They receive total disrespect, rage, anger and all sorts of rocks thrown to their heads.

Like me they are NOT approving of Brett Sutton’s past, they just tried to look beyond the perceived problem and got into contact with this man themselves and simply experienced he is a guy who passionately helps people who like him to help. The have seen this broken man happened to understand one trick really well, and that is to help people become the best they can be and in the process he created more champions than any other coach in this sport.

I personally have never met Jordan and we never emailed or spoke. I read his posting and think he is a very smart and gifted human being. So does he write about Brett Sutton because he is not smart enough to see the problem of the past? Does Jordan talk with a little bit of more understanding about Brett because he needs Brett or his coaching skills? Does Jordan just think a bit deeper and further about life? Has Jordan experienced something not many people have in this life, which is a near death experience, that when he survived enabled him to look life from a slight different perspective?

I don’t have the answer, but just like me Jordan will for sure NOT APPROVE what Brett Sutton did in the past. But Jordon did OPEN THE DOOR TO HIS HEART for a man he had heard about from various sources he respects, who all had direct personal interaction with Brett Sutton and who all explained him that Brett had positively impacted their lives in one way or the other.

With one email, I can invite and possibly convince about 20 of the world’s best female triathletes come out in public on this forum to explain who Brett Sutton really is, what this broken man has meant for them in this life and these would be the very same female athletes that are adored by so many triathlon fans around the world including the majority of this forum users.

But what’s the point to hurt athletes or females to people who just love throwing rocks, who never took the time like people such as Johnny O, Brandon Marsh, Jordan Rapp or myself to learn more about this broken man, who in fact are so cold hearted that it scares me at times to even come and watch some of the forum messages I read here.

I have come clean today with forum users who are a victim, I simply honor you and hope you too can turn your fear into power, and pain into passion. I hope you understand I do not disrespect what happened to you nor to my own wife, I have learned first hand the pain these experiences can cause. I work with Brett Sutton, because I know he is NOT a repeat offender. I work with him not for commercial reasons, but to impact live of people in need. I hope you too can overcome the pain and grief of your past experiences and if ever we meet let me know if I can help.

For the eternal cynics and rock-throwers beyond comprehension on this forum, don’t worry about your response, this is the last time I have ever wrote a post or visited this forum, as there are so much better ways to spend my time in a meaningful manner. I just pray for you to never face what Brett Sutton experiences every few days, as if only you knew, you would not wish that to your worse enemy.

To the victim of Brett Sutton and her family, I hope you accept what I wrote today about Brett and the rational for working with him, as I believe YOUR pain has driven Brett to become a better human being than most will give him credit for, he truly is sorry for what has happened to you as a result of his actions, but in the process he has impacted so many peoples lives with his passion, life experiences and wise insights. I wish you happiness and peace in your life.

Yours in Sports

Alex


BDoughtie

Jan 13, 13 15:23

Post #272 of 390 (2639 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Diabolo] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I guess I'd have to ask, when did that go into affect. Was that 1st of Jan 2013, was that summer of 2012? Was it from the start of Sutton and Bok's relationship?

I'm actually not bringing up from an photo. I'm bringing it up from Sutton's on view point of his interactions with the Brazil junior team.

"Brett, I been up there, lots of doctorates, lots of big levels, lots of big talk, but if I add up all the people together, their results, well they don't equal the result that is down here in the pool. Brett, I'm a sportsman - I may not be a great coach yet - but if I want to be one, I am at the right room, the results are here walking up and down the pool with his athletes, not up in the room making big noise."
So, this was the meeting that changed my life.
He asked, would I come to Brazil for one time, do a lecture and help his team. He had contact with Rob Pickard (former national coaching director for Triathlon Australia), and Rob had come and advised he talk to me. So, I said, one time. He said he had no money, but big BBQ, best in the world. He said he would find a sponsor for the air ticket, and I come just once.
Well that "once" turned into 10 or 11 times, who's counting? and cost me plenty of money and good athletes over time, but it paid me back so much more. It changed me.
Cali, you see, would take off from training sometimes, saying he will be back later. Then I would see him loading rice and pasta in his car, and taking money off some people, and I thought, ok what was this, I needed to ask him what was going on.
So I did, and he said, "Oh nothing much, but I am the president of this little charity I run", so I helped him load the rice and pasta and he took me to this little school type building and to 30 or so smiling little kids running around having a great time, and out to the kitchen, where some ladies like you see in the movies with headbands and a big wooden spoon, cooking away, and admonishing the wild kids running, no, frolicking around the building. And there was Cali talking, kicking a ball with the boys, bringing old 2nd-hand dolls to the girls, and headbands and earrings.

http://www.teamtbb.com./...task=view&id=271


You are probaly right in that he's working more with coaches to develop the talent/teamwork to create an fantastic team that can develop juniors (they have done with the development of the PATCO champion who beat our American for the PATCO olympic spot). So maybe that article is really old and maybe it's fairly new, I dont know (it doesnt have a published date). But what it does show is that at some point within the framework of the teamTBB, Sutton was able to interact with children. Again he wasnt "coaching" but if you want to say that that type of contact is allowable, then just say it. Again, this is all from their own info. I've never said he shouldnt get a 2nd chance. I've simply said that his interaction with children directly to me is where I dont think he should be allowed. This is all info from their own site. So I'm in no way trying to say he's doing something that hasnt been mentioned, so please refrain from saying, I'm making some info up about him working with kids.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


Mad Jee

Jan 13, 13 15:35

Post #273 of 390 (2610 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Bok] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

"I ask everyone here today to ask themselves if their life is so pure, clean and beyond reproach that we have the right to attack the character of another simple, broken human being who made a horrible mistake, and not justify it, nor defended himself but admitted the wrong, took the penalty, suffered and suffers the consequences and for 27 years has shown us everything and anything but that he is a child molester or predator"

You see, here's the simple problem, Jordan openly admitted that Brett didn't "take the penalty". He violated both the letter and the spirit of his penalty and was forcably removed from races during his ban.

This isn't the case of a man who made a mistake and has been repentant for it, his "mistake" shouldn't be described in the singular, it was a pattern of predatory behavior.


Portside Athletics Blog


pk

Jan 13, 13 15:46

Post #274 of 390 (2583 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply


good summery maybe you should add.

-By all accounts he has not repeated his crime, in the last 30 years.

-Some also say (just like Triathlon Australia) that he should not coach any age group, having transgressed a fundamental responsibility of a coach. On the other hand, one triathlon federation has hired him a few years ago ( not for minor aged people).





devashish_paul wrote:
Can we all step away from making all of this personal and the name calling and refrain from the personal bashing and instead just engage in an intellectual discussion about the topic at hand?


If we can summarize this thread (or the discussion that spawned after the OP):

  • Sutton banned from coaching any age group in Oz for his crime in the past
  • By all accounts he has not repeated his crime.
  • He has chosen to coach in countries that don't care to reciprocate (or can't reciprocate) the Aussie coaching ban
  • Almost everyone who posted agrees that he should not coach minors
  • Some also say (just like Triathlon Australia) that he should not coach any age group, having transgressed a fundamental responsibility of a coach
  • Other feel that everyone deserves a second chance in life, and to reform, and once reform they should be able to return in a limited capacity to their profession (in this case coaching), provided that he is not put in a position where he was when he committed the crime on the first round (coach minors).
  • Lots of high caliber athletes ranging from Chrissie Wellington down to entry level pros have entrusted their athletic development to him at some point in their career knowing the background and either believing in second chances, or putting their career growth ahead of that and being willing to look beyond that based on the man they have engaged with "today"
  • Team TBB has entrusted the head coach position in their organization to him noting the past and believing in second chances. According to TBB, he does not directly coach any minors in their athlete development program. Many on ST feel that his position at the helm of the organization still provides him with a position of authority over these minors and are against it.
  • Finally as Mr. Bok mentioned, Sutton is gradually moving away from hands on coaching, sadly due to health not being optimal (I think we can all agree that we wish all humans good health...at least I hope so).

Did I miss anything in the last ~ 100 posts?

http://www.pb3coaching.com


devashish_paul

Jan 13, 13 16:02

Post #275 of 390 (2554 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Bok] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Alex,

I want to thank you for coming here and providing a very sincere and open response to the discussion on this thread. I can see from the quality of your response, why you would have made a small fortune in the financial sector, and also why you have moved on to trying to do good and positively impact people around the world with your life. Sorry to hear that whatever arrangement you had with WTC with your chain of stores did not work out. I remember when you came on here years ago before you planned to open the Hong Kong location talking about hiring talent to make that happen.

While some may throw stones, as you said the internet and this forum can be a powerful thing.. I think that your presence here provides more education about your initiatives to improve the world, and staying around to help people understand would not only be worthwhile, but would also help create positive momentum and visibility into your mandate and goals. It is also good for people to understand that in all of this you were financially in a position where, the need to do "good", was never influenced by economic goals....you had already made your fortune in another market and were using this sport as a tool to have a positive impact on the world.

Dev

cervelo.com (P3) |infinitnutrition.ca | bushtukah.com
Whiteface Hill Climb + Epicman Lake Placid 3k/180k/21k June 5/6 2014, Epicman Tremblant 10k/260k/42.2k 11-13 July 2014


stringcheese

Jan 13, 13 17:15

Post #276 of 390 (2893 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Bok] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

thank you for you taking the time to offer your insights.
**************************************

Making the most of zero talent but plenty of time to train.


trail

Jan 13, 13 17:29

Post #277 of 390 (2866 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

 
>The Slow-Twit lynch mob still won't miss a chance to gather together on their horses flame in hand, ready to string up whoever has been designated the witch of the day.

>Pathetic

I know very little about Sutton, but as someone who spent 10-years coaching minors, I feel that a very strong message should be sent to anyone who coaches minors about the consequences of such behavior (if the prosecution's quotations are accurate), which is all too common (e.g. US Swimming). A united message from both the legal system, and the athlete community in general. Zero tolerance for this behavior. Sutton appears to have sidestepped the punishment, and the community gave a general, "meh." I just don't accept the "making up for it" argument where the manner of "making up for it" is determined at the pleasure and timeline of the offender.


AlwaysCurious

Jan 13, 13 17:47

Post #278 of 390 (2820 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Bok] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Mr. Bok,

You throw out a lot of charges against people who ask legitimate questions. You question their motives and intent. You also speak a lot about Sutton's motives, and the intent in his heart. I'm surprised you can be so cynical about one and so accepting of the other.

Regardless, most of us are in fact looking for facts and for truth, and are not questioning intent and motives. Yesterday I asked you a couple of straightforward questions, which you've still avoided answering. Here they are again:
  1. How often has Sutton's role with team TBB brought him into contact with those under the age of 18? Please describe those circumstances.
  2. The TBB website and press releases about the youth teams in the Philippines and Mexico all stress Brett's role as the head coach and discuss his involvement with the youth social programs. It's universally understood that a head coach has authority over his team--who makes the team, who's cut, etc.

    • Are you saying that, as head coach of the youth teams, he in fact has no authority over them?
    • Are you saying that the information on your website about his involvement with the youth social programs is greatly exaggerated, and that he has no direct involvement with the children?
  3. Will Sutton's ongoing work with team TBB place him in contact with anyone under the age of 18?

Finally, I'd encourage you to follow up on your offer to ask the top 20 female triathletes to respond here about their view of Sutton. And, if they do, I'll ask them the following question:
  • Is Sutton still manipulative, authoritarian and self-aggrandizing? The media portrays him as such, and he comes across this way in interviews and his own writing. I am curious as to what others would say. For, when we talk about reform, we are really talking about reforming the characteristics that led to the crime. And, as far as I can tell, those are the qualities that largely contributed to his crime 27 years ago. Note that remorse is very, very different than reform. And I have yet to hear anyone say that he has reformed those characteristics.


pick6

Jan 13, 13 17:52

Post #279 of 390 (2807 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

avagoyamug wrote:

You do realize this was one incident 30 some years ago? There are many life long paedophiles who should be kept away from kids at all costs.

It's face palmingly obvious that Sutton is not one of them.

The Slow-Twit lynch mob still won't miss a chance to gather together on their horses flame in hand, ready to string up whoever has been designated the witch of the day.

Pathetic.

You say it's one incident but i can't blame people for doubt. Have you heard about the BBC sex abuse case that's been ongoing? Decades of abuse by a "beloved broadcaster", because people didn't report it. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20981611 We don't know what's gone on. If it really was one event, maybe he's redeemed and I hope so, but I can't blame people for being uncomfortable with some of the recent news about situations he's allowing himself to be in that maybe a convicted child molester shouldn't be.


ironpsych

Jan 13, 13 17:58

Post #280 of 390 (2797 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Bok] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Mr Bok,

I like others appreciate you candid assessment of you thoughts about Brett Sutton.

I do hope that you read my <earlier> post. We were probably typing at the same time.

I do have to take issue with some points that you made.

1. Brett Sutton IS a child molester. He was convicted. To try to deny that fact is unfortunate. Is he a "serial" child molester. Actually, yes. He "serially" molested a 14 y.o. girl over several years. Has he had other victims, not that we know of.

2. At the age of 27, you are no longer allowed to have "youthful mistakes". Most are well into their careers and have lots of responsibilities (marriage, children, etc.).

3. Brett Sutton does not "appear" to be a broken man. He is arguably the most successful triathlon coach in history. Has a wife, a family and is making loads of money. Does he feel remorse for what he did. Likely. But please see my <earlier> post for my thoughts on the depth of his understanding of his crime.

4. I am finding it somewhat distasteful that you continue to use your wife to justify your relationship with Brett. "My wife was molested and she really likes him". Unless your wife as a psychologist has done a formal evaluation and is giving him ongoing treatment than her opinion really should not come into play. There are lots of people who commit crimes that are very charismatic.

5. I accept your challenge. You get 20 female athletes who have been sexually molested as children to post on this forum supporting Brett Sutton and I'll have a better understanding of his "rehabilitation". Try it. So far on this forum there has not been a single poster who has identified themselves as female who has supported Brett Sutton. Which is what this thread lacks. A point of reference. We are like the 20 old white guys making legislation on reproductive rights.

6. I am glad that your wife has been able to come to terms with her experience but we have no way of knowing if Sutton's victim has. As a wealthy Asian banker I am sure that your wife had many resources available to her that others may not. Your wife sounds like an extraordinary individual but her experience should and cannot be considered the norm or applied to others.

You hired and work with a convicted child molester. That was your choice based on your convictions and the information that you gathered. I respect that. But that does not mean that you shouldn't be challenged on that decision.

Again, thanks for posting.


(This post was edited by ironpsych on Jan 13, 13 19:00)


avagoyamug

Jan 13, 13 18:01

Post #281 of 390 (2791 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [pick6] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

pick6 wrote:
avagoyamug wrote:


You do realize this was one incident 30 some years ago? There are many life long paedophiles who should be kept away from kids at all costs.

It's face palmingly obvious that Sutton is not one of them.

The Slow-Twit lynch mob still won't miss a chance to gather together on their horses flame in hand, ready to string up whoever has been designated the witch of the day.

Pathetic.


You say it's one incident but i can't blame people for doubt. Have you heard about the BBC sex abuse case that's been ongoing? Decades of abuse by a "beloved broadcaster", because people didn't report it. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20981611 We don't know what's gone on. If it really was one event, maybe he's redeemed and I hope so, but I can't blame people for being uncomfortable with some of the recent news about situations he's allowing himself to be in that maybe a convicted child molester shouldn't be.

Yes I know all about jimmy Saville. And what he did and what Sutton did are in different post codes. One with a lifelong list of over 500 victims, I wonder never defend that scumbag and would be hurling the same vitriole that the lynch mob here want to throw at Sutton and even worse if he was still alive.


SwimRunTri

Jan 13, 13 18:24

Post #282 of 390 (2757 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [stringcheese] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

+1, don't want to get into the merits of the case either but appreciate the time to come on and add to the debate.


Diabolo

Jan 13, 13 19:36

Post #283 of 390 (2649 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [AlwaysCurious] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Well, your questions are a bit stupid, really, so I don't think he will answer them.

Should he not bring his daughters to school, because you know, he's going to be in contact with under 18 chidlren there. Who knows, he may jump on a few in front of everybody.

A hint for you: head coach of TBB (his title). Does not mean coach of the youth squads (which by all accounts he is not).

Cheers.


pick6

Jan 13, 13 21:49

Post #284 of 390 (2545 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

we don't know how many victims Sutton has had. just like with saville, no one knew til later. could be others who have never come forward. no way to say one way or the other. Not uncommon for ppl not to come forward especially when no prosecution possible after tone passes


NAB777

Jan 14, 13 1:20

Post #285 of 390 (2429 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Bok] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Bok wrote:
I spoke to many male and female athletes from the past and present who had been in contact with Brett throughout their career.
Alex

You didn't speak to the right ones.

I know one girl personally who told me a story about the guy. Not the 14 year old he molested, another girl that he coached, who left the sport when she was at the top of her game & ready to cash in. He didn't touch her, but if she was my daughter, I'd have punched his lights out.

I wouldn't spend a cent on any of the companies involved with TBB.
Nor would I spend a cent on any companies involved with Jordan Rapp.


avagoyamug

Jan 14, 13 4:12

Post #286 of 390 (2347 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [pick6] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

pick6 wrote:
we don't know how many victims Sutton has had. just like with saville, no one knew til later. could be others who have never come forward. no way to say one way or the other. Not uncommon for ppl not to come forward especially when no prosecution possible after tone passes

Yes that's true, but the Aus police spoke to pretty much every single athlete he coached and none had anything to report. It's pretty clear that is was just one girl. And Jimmy Saville was fiddling with hundreds of ten year old boys, and like those tens of thousands of evil catholic priests probably chose their career to have access to young boys.


avagoyamug

Jan 14, 13 4:14

Post #287 of 390 (2345 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ironpsych] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

ironpsych wrote:
Mr Bok,

I like others appreciate you candid assessment of you thoughts about Brett Sutton.

I do hope that you read my <earlier> post. We were probably typing at the same time.

I do have to take issue with some points that you made.

1. Brett Sutton IS a child molester. He was convicted. To try to deny that fact is unfortunate. Is he a "serial" child molester. Actually, yes. He "serially" molested a 14 y.o. girl over several years. Has he had other victims, not that we know of.

2. At the age of 27, you are no longer allowed to have "youthful mistakes". Most are well into their careers and have lots of responsibilities (marriage, children, etc.).

3. Brett Sutton does not "appear" to be a broken man. He is arguably the most successful triathlon coach in history. Has a wife, a family and is making loads of money. Does he feel remorse for what he did. Likely. But please see my <earlier> post for my thoughts on the depth of his understanding of his crime.

4. I am finding it somewhat distasteful that you continue to use your wife to justify your relationship with Brett. "My wife was molested and she really likes him". Unless your wife as a psychologist has done a formal evaluation and is giving him ongoing treatment than her opinion really should not come into play. There are lots of people who commit crimes that are very charismatic.

5. I accept your challenge. You get 20 female athletes who have been sexually molested as children to post on this forum supporting Brett Sutton and I'll have a better understanding of his "rehabilitation". Try it. So far on this forum there has not been a single poster who has identified themselves as female who has supported Brett Sutton. Which is what this thread lacks. A point of reference. We are like the 20 old white guys making legislation on reproductive rights.

6. I am glad that your wife has been able to come to terms with her experience but we have no way of knowing if Sutton's victim has. As a wealthy Asian banker I am sure that your wife had many resources available to her that others may not. Your wife sounds like an extraordinary individual but her experience should and cannot be considered the norm or applied to others.

You hired and work with a convicted child molester. That was your choice based on your convictions and the information that you gathered. I respect that. But that does not mean that you shouldn't be challenged on that decision.

Again, thanks for posting.

Damn. Alex posts a poignant, classy heart-felt piece like that and you respond with that??

Nothing but drivel. Alex has knocked you out and you are shouting insults from the canvas. Best to STFU now he have been out in your place.


avagoyamug

Jan 14, 13 4:16

Post #288 of 390 (2344 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [AlwaysCurious] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

AlwaysCurious wrote:
Mr. Bok,

You throw out a lot of charges against people who ask legitimate questions. You question their motives and intent. You also speak a lot about Sutton's motives, and the intent in his heart. I'm surprised you can be so cynical about one and so accepting of the other.

Regardless, most of us are in fact looking for facts and for truth, and are not questioning intent and motives. Yesterday I asked you a couple of straightforward questions, which you've still avoided answering. Here they are again:
  1. How often has Sutton's role with team TBB brought him into contact with those under the age of 18? Please describe those circumstances.
  2. The TBB website and press releases about the youth teams in the Philippines and Mexico all stress Brett's role as the head coach and discuss his involvement with the youth social programs. It's universally understood that a head coach has authority over his team--who makes the team, who's cut, etc.

    • Are you saying that, as head coach of the youth teams, he in fact has no authority over them?
    • Are you saying that the information on your website about his involvement with the youth social programs is greatly exaggerated, and that he has no direct involvement with the children?
  3. Will Sutton's ongoing work with team TBB place him in contact with anyone under the age of 18?

Finally, I'd encourage you to follow up on your offer to ask the top 20 female triathletes to respond here about their view of Sutton. And, if they do, I'll ask them the following question:
  • Is Sutton still manipulative, authoritarian and self-aggrandizing? The media portrays him as such, and he comes across this way in interviews and his own writing. I am curious as to what others would say. For, when we talk about reform, we are really talking about reforming the characteristics that led to the crime. And, as far as I can tell, those are the qualities that largely contributed to his crime 27 years ago. Note that remorse is very, very different than reform. And I have yet to hear anyone say that he has reformed those characteristics.

Here's a web site for you to check out http://www.iamacompleteimbocile.com

Go to the sign up page for your weekly information letter.


avagoyamug

Jan 14, 13 4:18

Post #289 of 390 (2341 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [realAlbertan] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

realAlbertan wrote:
Wow.

I know 4.37 eh!

Maybe I should put in as a footer in all my posts.

4.37 112mile split

Most improved Northern eastern Sydney Suburbs egg and spoon race 1984.

Works?


BDoughtie

Jan 14, 13 5:52

Post #290 of 390 (2253 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

The info about the brazil youth program still has gone unanswered by everyone. I provided direct info that has sutton "involved" with children. Now if the answer is that's cool because he didn't "directly" coach them, fine. But I've yet to get an understanding of why he and his organization has allowed him to still interact with children in a triathlon/sporting setting. Why was he allows to meet with 30 children in brazil, directly?

Again, all I keep getting is, sutton doesn't directly coach kids. Ill believe that, but is it ok for him to talk with and mingle with children that are in our sport? Is that really ok, when an situation like that can be stopped. And I'm not saying for him to live under a cave. I'm asking why on earth is he allowed to be in situations where he gets to come into direct contact with children while a teamTBB coach?

Again this was more than some "photo", and I'm not trying to dstroy anyone's credibility. What I'm interested in is answers, and that scenario has still failed to be addressed. But maybe it's cool with you and teamTBB to put sutton in those situations just as long as he isn't coaching. That is y'all's call, but please don't feed some company line that sutton doesn't come into contact with minors. That's simply not true based on what he himself has reported. Now maybe that was 5 years ago and some new policy has been formed/updated. I have no clue.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


avagoyamug

Jan 14, 13 6:15

Post #291 of 390 (2207 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

BDoughtie wrote:
The info about the brazil youth program still has gone unanswered by everyone. I provided direct info that has sutton "involved" with children. Now if the answer is that's cool because he didn't "directly" coach them, fine. But I've yet to get an understanding of why he and his organization has allowed him to still interact with children in a triathlon/sporting setting. Why was he allows to meet with 30 children in brazil, directly?

Again, all I keep getting is, sutton doesn't directly coach kids. Ill believe that, but is it ok for him to talk with and mingle with children that are in our sport? Is that really ok, when an situation like that can be stopped. And I'm not saying for him to live under a cave. I'm asking why on earth is he allowed to be in situations where he gets to come into direct contact with children while a teamTBB coach?

Again this was more than some "photo", and I'm not trying to dstroy anyone's credibility. What I'm interested in is answers, and that scenario has still failed to be addressed. But maybe it's cool with you and teamTBB to put sutton in those situations just as long as he isn't coaching. That is y'all's call, but please don't feed some company line that sutton doesn't come into contact with minors. That's simply not true based on what he himself has reported. Now maybe that was 5 years ago and some new policy has been formed/updated. I have no clue.

Yes you are on a mission from God. Do not rest until you find out if Sutton, sitting in his humble house in Switerland, gives advice to kids.

Keep fighting the good fight sir. It is a worthy cause.


BDoughtie

Jan 14, 13 6:24

Post #292 of 390 (2188 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Just make sure you add he does it also on site. If you can't admit that you are being over dramatic in providing false info. I have no idea why you seem to want to deny what sutton himself has provided info on. So when you only say he does it from his home, you sir aren't living by facts. Maybe he does it now but he is on record as visiting brazil for the youth program 10-11 times. But you stick to saying he only does it from his house. Your credibility seems to be lost with every post you make.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


(This post was edited by BDoughtie on Jan 14, 13 6:39)


Mad Jee

Jan 14, 13 6:48

Post #293 of 390 (2144 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

So who are you and what's your relationship to Sutton? ST is too smart of a place and you'll get outed eventually, so why don't you just tell us?

You've resorted to insulting people, you're not helping Sutton's case here. This is like the time Michael Weiss' father-in-law came on here try to defend Weiss, you're going to get figured out and it's just going to make things worse.


Portside Athletics Blog


pick6

Jan 14, 13 6:51

Post #294 of 390 (2136 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [NAB777] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

NAB777 wrote:
Bok wrote:

I spoke to many male and female athletes from the past and present who had been in contact with Brett throughout their career.
Alex


You didn't speak to the right ones.

I know one girl personally who told me a story about the guy. Not the 14 year old he molested, another girl that he coached, who left the sport when she was at the top of her game & ready to cash in. He didn't touch her, but if she was my daughter, I'd have punched his lights out.

I wouldn't spend a cent on any of the companies involved with TBB.
Nor would I spend a cent on any companies involved with Jordan Rapp.

I can absolutely see the merit in your point on TBB, but I disagree about Jordan. Jordan didn't endorse Sutton, didn't say he's ok to be coaching women, he merely said he's giving him the benefit of the doubt about his rehabilitation. Simple human kindness, even if sometimes it's naive (as we're finding out more in regards to Suttons role with triathlon juniors to this day), is almost never something to criticize. I applaud Jordan for being willing to find out for himself what kind of person Sutton is. I hope his willingness to admit he has talked to Sutton won't cost him too many fans/friends. Even if in the end he learns his faith was misplaced, I hope it won't spoil in him the willingness to trust people despite prior mistakes. Because people make mistakes, some worse than others. You have an insight Jordan couldn't have possibly had when he began talking to Sutton, and are judging him based on that fact.


TravisT

Jan 14, 13 6:59

Post #295 of 390 (2121 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [pick6] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Jordan has endorsed Sutton and has not been back to post on here since more information about Sutton and his involvement with minors has been discovered. As it stands I view him exactly the same way I do TBB. And it's not good.
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ZingUK

Jan 14, 13 7:04

Post #296 of 390 (2099 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [AlwaysCurious] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

AlwaysCurious wrote:
ZingUK wrote:
BDoughtie wrote:


It's not inherently physical proximity to children that's a problem--it's having a position of power over children that's a big problem. An adult with power over a child can coerce the child into doing something that otherwise would take brute force. A couple of examples of powerful positions:


  • A school teacher has power over children, because he can adversely affect their grades.
  • A police officer has power over children, because he can threaten them with arrest.
  • A head coach has power over children, because he can threaten their place on a team.
Someone who has incidental proximity to children in a public place has no inherent power over them, and very little opportunity to harm them. A few examples:

  • A cashier will interact with children, but has no power over them, and the interaction is in a public place.
  • An architect might interact with clients' children (who accompany their parents to a meeting), but has no power over them. Plus their parents are present.
See the difference? One set of situations puts the children in a position of vulnerability; their well-being relies on trusting the adult. The second set does not increase their vulnerability; they're either in a public place, or they are accompanied by their parents.

Ok this is well reasoned argument Brooks and I think our perspective is not sure far apart but we just view it through different social lenses. First of all we (and I think everyone else on this thread agrees two things, 1. What Sutton did was wrong and he should be punished and 2. He should not work directly with kid. The part we are disagreeing on is whether he can work in a hands of capacity.

The reason I make the social lens comments is this. In the US you incarcerate more people than any othe palce on earth, prison time is focussed on punishment, sentences are higher and the stagma when people get out of prison they struggle so often reoffend giving you a far higher recedivism rate than Europe http://releasedandrestored.org/statistics.html (I appreciate this is an old study but the figures still hold braodly true).

In Eurpope we incarcerate about 10% of people per population and the focus is very much in rehabilitation with a vast majority of ex offenders going into programmes when they get out to help the reintegrate into society so our recedivism rates are much lower.

Now neither system is perfect and there are outliers who in any legal framework. Two current instances that come to mind is what you are doing in the States with Bradley Manning in inhuman and in Norway we havea man who gunned down 77 mostly teenage kids and will spend a maximum of 20 years in jail before walking free, just as ludicrous the other way. Sutton is not an outlier though, he falls squarely into the system, he served his punishment and is moving on.

Now through your social lens you think there is a high likelihood he will reoffend and the punishment should be harsher because that is your social system. Through a European lens we think he deserves a chance and rehabilitation after he has served and his and would actually view his hands off coaching as helping people from the same age group as the girl he offended with so that is actually part of his payback. Again so long as it is not directly hands on.

Another thing we tend to do in Europe is celebrate when people have been reintegrated successfully and applaude them when the help society. You do that in the States as well but to much lesser extent. Johny Cash is an excellent example though, there is a man who was a habitual petty offender befor finally murdering someone. Now if any of you who are taking great glee in ripping Sutton apart on this thread has a Johnny Cash CD in your collection I will call you out as a complete hypocrite. And please don't tell me sleeping with a 14 year old girl is worse than murder. By owning a JC CD you are not only supporting the man but financially contributing directly to him (at least when he was alive) so yes if you do own any of his CD's (I do BTW) then I say again you are a complete hypocrite.

There was a rediculous post put up by some woman earlier claiming to be a phycho analist of some of some sort who spoke a lot of horse shit about 14 year olds not being emotionally mature enogh to make decisions. Can I ask her if at 16 an emotional maturity switch suddenly gets turned on? What about the fact the girls are more emotionally mature than boys as teenagers should we have different ages of consent for things like sex, smoking and alcohol? I lived in Asian for many years and my wife is Chinese, believe me Asian kids are a damn site smarter and more emotionally mature than either European or American kids on the whole so should we have differing ages for each country? Again not a justification but how do we know anything about this girls maturity? We do know the Sutton was extremely immature at the time to do what he did, that I'll agree with.

I have know 14 years olds incredibly mature beyond their years and I know some 50 year olds I wouldn't trust to buy me an ice cream. This is in no way a justification of what Sutton did, he broke the law in his country and was punished for it. In many other countries it would not have been illegal but certainly morally very wrong. The person who knows this most is Sutton himself.

I will finish with these points:

1. Sutton is a bright guy and has shown absolutely no signs of recedivism in any way shape or form over the last 25 years and he knows the eyes of the world are on him. On the contrary he tries his best to be a valuable member of society in the best way he can. If there is one person aware of the implication of a repeat offence it's Sutton

2. The people who employ and work with Sutton are also very smart, do you not think they know the situation and made a conscious reason business decision to work with him after very thorough discussions?

3. The people on this site who actually know Sutton have all spoken out in defence of him and to be frank some of the comments towards Jordan, Brandon and Jonnyo are mind numbingly stupid from people who hide behind psuedonyms (not you Brooks I know). None of the rest of us know the man so how can we judge his intentions? Do we just assume that when someone has done wrong they are stupid enough to continue doing wrong especially with such a public profile? Should I hate Johnny Cash and brand him a murderer first then a musician second because I don't know him?


pick6

Jan 14, 13 7:06

Post #297 of 390 (2087 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [TravisT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

TravisT wrote:
Jordan has endorsed Sutton and has not been back to post on here since more information about Sutton and his involvement with minors has been discovered. As it stands I view him exactly the same way I do TBB. And it's not good.

He said if he learned more that was inappropriate he would certainly discontinue his relationship with Sutton. As far as I can tell (in my limited ability to do so via the search) Jordan hasn't posted on the board since that post, so perhaps he's away?


TravisT

Jan 14, 13 7:06

Post #298 of 390 (2087 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Mad Jee wrote:
So who are you and what's your relationship to Sutton? ST is too smart of a place and you'll get outed eventually, so why don't you just tell us?

You've resorted to insulting people, you're not helping Sutton's case here. This is like the time Michael Weiss' father-in-law came on here try to defend Weiss, you're going to get figured out and it's just going to make things worse.

His name is Bevan Colless. His name was on the file he uploaded of the bike split he thinks we all should be so impressed with.
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ZingUK

Jan 14, 13 7:08

Post #299 of 390 (2077 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [pick6] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

pick6 wrote:
we don't know how many victims Sutton has had. just like with saville, no one knew til later. could be others who have never come forward. no way to say one way or the other. Not uncommon for ppl not to come forward especially when no prosecution possible after tone passes

Stupid point, Sutton is a very publis figure and people would come forward for the money if nothing else. I can easily say I don't know how many victims you have had because none have come forward.


realAlbertan

Jan 14, 13 7:10

Post #300 of 390 (2070 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

No "wow" was in reference to your dick posts. Care to make some more or have you discovered my opinion of Sutton can shortened to:

KF
___________________________________________
http://en.wikipedia.org/...eoesophageal_fistula
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cerebral_palsy
Canadian Record Holder 35-39M - 400 & 1500 m Freestyle/200 m Butterfly


pick6

Jan 14, 13 7:14

Post #301 of 390 (3092 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

ZingUK wrote:
pick6 wrote:
we don't know how many victims Sutton has had. just like with saville, no one knew til later. could be others who have never come forward. no way to say one way or the other. Not uncommon for ppl not to come forward especially when no prosecution possible after tone passes


Stupid point, Sutton is a very publis figure and people would come forward for the money if nothing else. I can easily say I don't know how many victims you have had because none have come forward.

How so? Look at that BBC case? People only coming forward now, after he's dead. Sutton doesn't have the same public power that a well known and well liked public broadcaster does, but rape and molestation victims often don't come forward due to shame. http://www.rainn.org/statistics


BDoughtie

Jan 14, 13 7:22

Post #302 of 390 (3062 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Mad Jee] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

He can hide behind whatever he wants to. At this point, he has said enough to justify his answers in this situation. Others can see and take him for what he is. If he feels the need to belittle or not actually address situations it simply further cements his stance on this issue. So I say let him be who he is going to be. There is some agenda in there that we probaly won't ever understand. I just feel sorry that the truth about sutton and his role with juniors seems to be so easily overlooked by some on here. It's that mindset and thinking that I was hoping to clarify and improve.

ETA; I just find it hard to believe we are ok with allowing sutton to so easily be in situations that have him interacting with juniors. Whether directly coaching or not, I'm shocked teamTBB gives or in the past gave him access to still interact with kids. I would think a near zero tolerance policy would be in affect within Tri coaching/team environments.
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USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


(This post was edited by BDoughtie on Jan 14, 13 13:20)


ZingUK

Jan 14, 13 7:23

Post #303 of 390 (3060 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [pick6] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

pick6 wrote:
ZingUK wrote:
pick6 wrote:
we don't know how many victims Sutton has had. just like with saville, no one knew til later. could be others who have never come forward. no way to say one way or the other. Not uncommon for ppl not to come forward especially when no prosecution possible after tone passes


Stupid point, Sutton is a very publis figure and people would come forward for the money if nothing else. I can easily say I don't know how many victims you have had because none have come forward.


How so? Look at that BBC case? People only coming forward now, after he's dead. Sutton doesn't have the same public power that a well known and well liked public broadcaster does, but rape and molestation victims often don't come forward due to shame.http://www.rainn.org/statistics[/quote[/url]]

Because the BBC case is such an broad outlier, it's like suggesting every murderer has like Hitler. There are exceptions that come up from time-to-time but they are just that, very rare exceptions. What happened in the BBC also happened in a particular environment in the 1970's (generally) when people wouldn't come forward against Saville. People would certainly come forward against Sutton and if anything the Saville case would make that even more likely to happen. Do you not think at the time that the police didn't interview other swimmers in his squads? Of course they did. If you refer to my previous point about American social lens v European Social lens this is a perfect example (I'm assuming you are American here and I may be wrong, apologies if I'm wrong), we tend to give people the benefit of the doubt because of the way our system is structured, you tend not to and this is a classic example


Joe C.

Jan 14, 13 7:31

Post #304 of 390 (3038 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

A minor FYI, Johnny cash never murdered anyone. He just wrote a song about it.

-------
Joe



pick6

Jan 14, 13 7:33

Post #305 of 390 (3035 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

ZingUK wrote:
pick6 wrote:
ZingUK wrote:
pick6 wrote:
we don't know how many victims Sutton has had. just like with saville, no one knew til later. could be others who have never come forward. no way to say one way or the other. Not uncommon for ppl not to come forward especially when no prosecution possible after tone passes


Stupid point, Sutton is a very publis figure and people would come forward for the money if nothing else. I can easily say I don't know how many victims you have had because none have come forward.


How so? Look at that BBC case? People only coming forward now, after he's dead. Sutton doesn't have the same public power that a well known and well liked public broadcaster does, but rape and molestation victims often don't come forward due to shame.http://www.rainn.org/statistics[/quote[/url]]

Because the BBC case is such an broad outlier, it's like suggesting every murderer has like Hitler. There are exceptions that come up from time-to-time but they are just that, very rare exceptions. What happened in the BBC also happened in a particular environment in the 1970's (generally) when people wouldn't come forward against Saville. People would certainly come forward against Sutton and if anything the Saville case would make that even more likely to happen. Do you not think at the time that the police didn't interview other swimmers in his squads? Of course they did. If you refer to my previous point about American social lens v European Social lens this is a perfect example (I'm assuming you are American here and I may be wrong, apologies if I'm wrong), we tend to give people the benefit of the doubt because of the way our system is structured, you tend not to and this is a classic example

Read the statistics I sent you. If it's true that 54% of rapes go unreported to this day, what makes you think that there is no possibility that there is someone out there who hasn't come forward? Remember, he's had a ton of time since those people were interviewed.


ZingUK

Jan 14, 13 7:44

Post #306 of 390 (3005 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Joe C.] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Joe C. wrote:
A minor FYI, Johnny cash never murdered anyone. He just wrote a song about it.

Sorry my bad, I honestly never knew that. Ok Jerry Lee Lewis (far less popular I know) but still sure his CD are still around and listened to


caf0

Jan 14, 13 8:58

Post #307 of 390 (2913 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ironpsych] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Brett's identified victim was 13 years old, not 14, according to Australian sex offender list and the Sunday Telegraph (Australia).
Reference for the former: http://www.mako.org.au/temp_s.html and the latter was copied in an old tri forum exchange discussion (competitive website so I won't link).
Not an important detail f/ my point of view, unless someone intentionally upped the reported age. Outside magazine reported 14, so some source has an error.

I wonder if Brett would have less support for his continued coaching had his identified victim been a boy.

A stat you may know: What percent of victims that seek professional help report the abuse to authorities? Obviously you can't respond about those that don't seek professional help.


ironpsych

Jan 14, 13 9:12

Post #308 of 390 (2878 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Please read my previous post concerning the impact that this sort of crime has on "just one girl". In that post I also said the I think Sutton should be allowed to coach (not minors obviously) although the Australian governing body felt differently and likely had more information than I do. And I also said that he should be allowed to live a happy life. I felt that that post was nuanced enough to get my point across.

I made it pretty clear in that post what experiences that lead me to my current view and my opinion about Sutton and people criticizing Sutton and those that support/hire and work with him.

I think it is a wonderful thing that Mr. Bok has come to this forum to share his feelings and thoughts. And I believe them to be sincere and heartfelt and Brett Sutton is well served by having a boss and friend who believes in him so strongly. I am not sure that I have someone (outside of my family) that devoted to my success and well being. We would all be well served by having a friend like Mr. Bok

I was actually very complimentary to his wife and after rereading my post I am hard pressed to find where I personally insulted Mr. Bok.

I challenged him on some of the points he made and I think they are legitimate challenges. Perhaps it is the use of the word "distasteful" that you are reacting to, I'm not sure. I don't consider that a personal insult. I am just relating the feeling that I have (again, based on my own experiences) regarding that part of his post. Was it a bit harsh? Perhaps. I will gladly go back and edit my post to say "I take offense" or "I am a little disturbed" or "I would prefer that you not" or whatever language would be acceptable to you and others if people felt that was a personal insult.

Again, I encourage you to read my earlier post.


Joe C.

Jan 14, 13 9:25

Post #309 of 390 (2845 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

ZingUK wrote:
Joe C. wrote:
A minor FYI, Johnny cash never murdered anyone. He just wrote a song about it.


Sorry my bad, I honestly never knew that. Ok Jerry Lee Lewis (far less popular I know) but still sure his CD are still around and listened to

Well that's more apropos. Jerry Lee Lewis didn't murder anyone but his career cratered when the public learned he had married his 13 year old third cousin. He claimed he didn't realize it would be a scandal. And around that time a 24 year old Elvis took up with a 14 year old named Priscilla.

-------
Joe



ironpsych

Jan 14, 13 9:27

Post #310 of 390 (2837 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [caf0] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Interesting. From my point of view, the age does make a difference. Adolescence is a time of exponential development. Cognitively and sexually. Now people may have upped the age because she was 13 and 11mos at the time. But say, for instance, she was 13yrs and 1 month vs. 14 yrs and 11mos. That would be almost two yrs difference. Basically a 13 y.o. vs. a 15 y.o. The developmental stage between those two ages is quite pronounced. This may be splitting hairs to some but it is a very important detail.

All cases of abuse that involve children that are reported during treatment have to be reported to the authorities. It varies from state to state who are considered "mandatory reporters" and some states consider all citizens to be mandatory reporters and can face criminal prosecution if found they have not reported.

Many, many children to do not disclose abuse until many years later and some never really do (I recall from an earlier poster that it took many years for Sutton's victim to disclose her abuse). As I mentioned in a previous post 90% of victims are abused by someone they trust and often love so their is often a lot of confusion about what to do or depending on age if it's "really" wrong. Most children take years to figure that out and if/when they disclose it is usually in the teen years when they kinda "figured it out". It's more complicated if it's a parent/relative that they live with.

And I made the same point about the boy aspect. I agree. And if that were the case this would likely have been a one page thread full of "Oh, my God!", etc.

Edit: Adults who report abuse as a child generally do not report to the authorities as most states have a statute of limitations and most adults feel that there is no point to filing criminal charges as these cases are hard to prosecute years later. He said/she said. Although in the wake of Penn State some states are considering doing away with the statute of limitations but again very difficult for a single victim to see any good outcome from reporting past abuse to the authorities.


(This post was edited by ironpsych on Jan 14, 13 9:45)


realAlbertan

Jan 14, 13 13:05

Post #311 of 390 (2631 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Post of the week.
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ajthomas

Jan 14, 13 13:25

Post #312 of 390 (2588 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [AlwaysCurious] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

AlwaysCurious wrote:

  • Is Sutton still manipulative, authoritarian and self-aggrandizing? The media portrays him as such, and he comes across this way in interviews and his own writing. I am curious as to what others would say. For, when we talk about reform, we are really talking about reforming the characteristics that led to the crime. And, as far as I can tell, those are the qualities that largely contributed to his crime 27 years ago. Note that remorse is very, very different than reform. And I have yet to hear anyone say that he has reformed those characteristics.

I agree 100% with this, I am not anonymous and I don't think that attacking people on Slowtwitch is the only place I get to be is a champion.

I have noticed a misunderstanding throughout this thread: Specifically, the thinking that rape is about sexual gratification. Just so everyone is clear, rape is about power not sexual gratification. Mr. Sutton did not have a problem with controlling his sexual urges (well he did have that problem too). His problem was that he became sexually aroused when he exerted power over the defenseless. And it is because of this that I considered "always curious" line of questions valuable.


ZingUK

Jan 15, 13 10:25

Post #313 of 390 (2251 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [Joe C.] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Joe C. wrote:

Well that's more apropos. Jerry Lee Lewis didn't murder anyone but his career cratered when the public learned he had married his 13 year old third cousin. He claimed he didn't realize it would be a scandal. And around that time a 24 year old Elvis took up with a 14 year old named Priscilla.

I forgot about the whole Elvis thing, now that does open a whole can of worms as he was obviously even bigger than my gaff over Johnny Cash and not to mention Michael Jackson in more recent times.

I'm not highjacking the thread about other people or trying to deflect from BS and I will address my specific thoughts on him in the questions below but I'd like to address the questions below to Ynot, Pick6, Nab777, Tttilyheed, Camaleon, Trigirrrl, BDoughtie, TravisT and everyone else that has expressed very strong anti Sutton views and challange you to answer them honestly. I bet that half od you don't reply or come up with something to deflect answering. And please don't tell me Elvis was in a different time and underage girls didn't go to his concert. My cousin saw him multiple times 3 times underage, twice unchaperoned by an adult so if anyone had access to mnors and expressed his sexuality towards them and created an adultation culture 100 more powerful than Sutton's it would be Elvis. So my questions along with my own answers in respect to Sutton are:

1. Have any of you ever got up and made some moves to an Elvis number at a party or own and Elvis music in your collection? Wouldn't this be considered supporting him in light of what he did?

I have never been coached by Brett Sutton and have never purchased anything connected with him but if I was given the chance to do a training camp with him I certainly would.

2. Do you consider that Elvis carried out statutory rape and do you go shouting off about it every time that Elvis' name comes up?

As the legal term applies then yes I think Sutton carried out statutory rape. Some duristictions don't actually use that term but use terms like interfering with a minor or sex with an underage person. For me personally I admit I don't like the temr rape in this context. I know 4 women who have been raped at some point in their and life and many more who had sex underage (UK is the world capital of teen pregnancy - I accept the vast majority is not with 27 year old men though) and the phychological trauma for a rape that involves forced sex and is often violent is far greater than a 14 year who at least thinks she is participating willingly. Yes I know what some of you are going to shout but no I absolutely do not thing it is ok what Sutton did.

3. Do you think that Elvis should never have been allowed to perfom after raping Pracilla multiple times over many years given that this gave him access to far more minors than Sutton could ever have and given his overt sexuality towards his audience? Should he have been forced to only record behind closed doors?

I have stated many times in this thread that I don't think Sutton should be coaching minors, full stop. The fact his team has a junior squad and he coaches the then pass on his expertise to them no I don't have an issue with this nor him being in a team photo that happened to have (allegedly) a 16 year old girl in it

4. Was Elvis a paedophile?

If someone in thier 20's told me that had a 13/14 sexual partner I would sure as hell call them a paedophile so yes Sutton is a paedophile

5. Should Elvis have been jailed\punished for what he did instead of becoming an national hero still celebrated to this day?

Absolutely Sutton should have been punished but not to my or any of our liking but to the laws that apply in the country where it happened and that is what happened. He served his punishment and is moving on with life

Ok I could go on with questions, you get the idea. If your answers about Elvis are different for how you would answer about Elvis why is that? Would this not make you question your own motives and judgement capability? Is this not exactly why we have legal systems to deal with all kinds of cases? If your feelings about Elvis are different from Sutton's do you think you are a hypocrite?

I am genuinely interested to see who answers these honestly but prepared to sit back and enjoy the deathly silence I suspect from most of you and for that I will call you cowards


nameless ghoul

Jan 15, 13 11:31

Post #314 of 390 (2194 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [avagoyamug] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

how is 1 any less catastrophic than 500...each person has to live with it.....that's HORRIBLE justification.


BDoughtie

Jan 15, 13 11:34

Post #315 of 390 (2185 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I just turned 31 years old. Have I heard an Elvis song? Absolutely? Have I probaly hummed or sang along, absolutely. But I don't even know if I was alive during his lifetime. I'm fact I'm not even sure he was alive but I never grew up on his music.

Considering I'm in no manner associated with the music industry nor a colleague of Elvis, not really sure what the comparison is. In fact I didn't even know any info on him that you are bringing up. I just googled him and he died 5 years before I was even born.

So if you want to call me a coward, I'd ask you man up and adress me as a person and not hide behind some username. I think I deserve that respect. And you may not like my answers, I have no clue. But you want to call me a coward, atleast be man enough to tell me who is calling me a coward. I think that's only fair? If I'm a hypocrit and you want to call me that, call me that. But I've said nothing that is disrespectful that wasn't the truth, that sutton and teamTBB have already confirmed/stated. I'm anti sutton when it comes to putting him in situations that allow him to interact with children. If you feel that's unjustified then fair enough. But I won't stand by and not address the truth.
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USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


ZingUK

Jan 15, 13 11:47

Post #316 of 390 (2162 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

BDoughtie wrote:
I just turned 31 years old. Have I heard an Elvis song? Absolutely? Have I probaly hummed or sang along, absolutely. But I don't even know if I was alive during his lifetime. I'm fact I'm not even sure he was alive but I never grew up on his music.

Considering I'm in no manner associated with the music industry nor a colleague of Elvis, not really sure what the comparison is. In fact I didn't even know any info on him that you are bringing up. I just googled him and he died 5 years before I was even born.

So if you want to call me a coward, I'd ask you man up and adress me as a person and not hide behind some username. I think I deserve that respect. And you may not like my answers, I have no clue. But you want to call me a coward, atleast be man enough to tell me who is calling me a coward. I think that's only fair? If I'm a hypocrit and you want to call me that, call me that. But I've said nothing that is disrespectful that wasn't the truth, that sutton and teamTBB have already confirmed/stated. I'm anti sutton when it comes to putting him in situations that allow him to interact with children. If you feel that's unjustified then fair enough. But I won't stand by and not address the truth.[/quote

I don't care about Elvis being dead before you were born he's still an all American hero and wondering what your thoughts are on him I said if you didn't answer the questions then yes I'll call you a coward and that is exactly what you have done, opted out so congratulations for being 100% predicable.

I am also anti Sutton when it comes to him working directly with kids and I think he's a paedophile, never said anything different. I do think though he should be allowed to coach and if his skills are past on through others to kids to help them develop then I'm also all for that, he is giving something back. If he wanted to continue doing what he did he would surely take a job that's under the radar not flying straight in the face of it, that's just stupid and Sutton's not stupid.

My real name is neither here nor there in this discussion, you just raise that as a smoke screen but if you really want for ST slueths it's easy enough to work out who I am anyway, there are plenty of posts with enough information to on race, my nationality (the UK part gives it away) my age group and where I live to work it out.


ZingUK

Jan 15, 13 11:48

Post #317 of 390 (2156 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

And by the way I do give you credit for at least replying even if you didn't answer the questions, you are the one I thought most likely would. It will be interesting to see what we get from the others


TravisT

Jan 15, 13 11:56

Post #318 of 390 (2145 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Strange that you are attacking people because they don't like child molestors but I'll still respond. I'm 1 year younger than Brooks and I could respond almost the same way. I don't think I know one Elvis song and I'm not heavily involved in the music world like I am the tri world. That said if I were I would respond the exact same way I have to Sutton in regards to his actions. There is no industry or profession where the repeated rape of a 13 or 14 year old is ok
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BDoughtie

Jan 15, 13 11:56

Post #319 of 390 (2144 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

So where do you draw the line? You say you are cool with sutton being in an photo shoot with an -*alleged* minor. Where do you stand on sutton being asked by another coach and allowed by teamTBB to travel to brazil and interact in the same room with 30 kids? Are you cool with that? So I guess your towing the company line that teamTBB shares that as long as he isn't "directly" coaching all is good.

I appreciate you sharing your views. I'll simply say this, the info I've shared has enlightened alot of people, and sounds like most didn't realize he was still interacting with juniors in the manners that teamTBB has shared through their own info. You have your views and please discredit me all you want, all that shows is the real issue certainly wants to be overlooked. From the comments we have read, I think people now see the issues that are still at play in some capacity.
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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


ajthomas

Jan 15, 13 11:59

Post #320 of 390 (2134 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

ZingUK wrote:
so if anyone had access to mnors and expressed his sexuality towards them and created an adultation culture 100 more powerful than Sutton's it would be Elvis.

Did it occur to you that the reason you will receive deathly silence is because your question is preposterous?


ZingUK

Jan 15, 13 12:06

Post #321 of 390 (2115 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

BDoughtie wrote:
So where do you draw the line? You say you are cool with sutton being in an photo shoot with an -*alleged* minor. Where do you stand on sutton being asked by another coach and allowed by teamTBB to travel to brazil and interact in the same room with 30 kids? Are you cool with that? So I guess your towing the company line that teamTBB shares that as long as he isn't "directly" coaching all is good.

I appreciate you sharing your views. I'll simply say this, the info I've shared has enlightened alot of people, and sounds like most didn't realize he was still interacting with juniors in the manners that teamTBB has shared through their own info. You have your views and please discredit me all you want, all that shows is the real issue certainly wants to be overlooked. From the comments we have read, I think people now see the issues that are still at play in some capacity.

If he is providing something positive for the 30 kids in that room and there is absolutely no danger to them with other adults there then yes I can live with that. I wouldn't be cool with him regularly interacting and coaching a junior squad on a regular basis though, absolutely not.

Can I ask where you draw the line? You seem to think because Elvis died before you were born that's not a problem or because he wasn't in your sport it doesn't matter to you. So do you net care about the catholic church systematically abusing children for decades because it was before you were born? If a maths teacher had a relationship with his 13 year old pupil would that be ok because it happened in the 70's (a true story from my high scholl BTW, I'm a bit older than you). The bottom line is we all care about these things and don;t want them to happen but you have an incredibly black and white hard line attitude when there has been absolutely no evidence Sutton has gone anywhere near a minor since he went to court and he's in plain view where everyone can see what he is doing. I believe in giving people a chance to rehabilitate themselves and so long as he's supervised and, as I said above, not in regular or sole contact then his expertise can help develop youth athletes and so at least give something back.

I don't want to discredit you at all, by using the Elvis analogy I just want all of those who have screamed so loudly against Sutton and Jordan, Brandon Jonnyo etc to maybe look at their own values and think if they are being fair or if perhaps there is some room for manoever. If that put you in a spot where you felt discredited in some ways that's good because it has you thinking but my apologies as discredit is certainly not my intention, education is. I have a son close to your age so obviously a lot older and the wolrd seems a less black and white place the older you get


BDoughtie

Jan 15, 13 12:07

Post #322 of 390 (2110 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I don't want to search who you are. I would assume you'd have enough respect for our discussion that when you make it "personal" you atleast stand behind that. I've not said anything negative about sutton, teamTBB or you or anyone. I've stated my thoughts, brought up facts that sutton and teamTBB willingly talk about. So again,I was hoping for a civil discussion, and ill just let your posts speak for the manner in which you gone to, to make/prove a point. And that's all good, I've stuck to the facts in this situation and would hope you could atleast respect that. But if you need to call me a coward, call me a coward. I am happy with the fact that this thread has opened alot of eyes and its evident by who is and isn't posting anymore. So in that manner, I think we've been able to shed more light into teamTBB and sutton and how they are handling his interactions with juniors in the sport.
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ZingUK

Jan 15, 13 12:08

Post #323 of 390 (2103 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ajthomas] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

ajthomas wrote:
ZingUK wrote:
so if anyone had access to mnors and expressed his sexuality towards them and created an adultation culture 100 more powerful than Sutton's it would be Elvis.


Did it occur to you that the reason you will receive deathly silence is because your question is preposterous?

Nope, not in the slightest. I'm asking people about thier priciples across the board. Why is it preposterous, is Elvis' rape of Precillas somehow different from Suttons? Isn't that me asking about the same thing? Perhaps one's an athlete and the other is a singer but otherwise the same as far as I can work out. So no, you reply is again trying to deflect actually answering. Thank you also for being redictable


ZingUK

Jan 15, 13 12:11

Post #324 of 390 (2097 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

BDoughtie wrote:
I don't want to search who you are. I would assume you'd have enough respect for our discussion that when you make it "personal" you atleast stand behind that. I've not said anything negative about sutton, teamTBB or you or anyone. I've stated my thoughts, brought up facts that sutton and teamTBB willingly talk about. So again,I was hoping for a civil discussion, and ill just let your posts speak for the manner in which you gone to, to make/prove a point. And that's all good, I've stuck to the facts in this situation and would hope you could atleast respect that. But if you need to call me a coward, call me a coward. I am happy with the fact that this thread has opened alot of eyes and its evident by who is and isn't posting anymore. So in that manner, I think we've been able to shed more light into teamTBB and sutton and how they are handling his interactions with juniors in the sport.


I'm also posting my views and just trying to understand where other people's views come from. Belive I do respect your viewpoint and I agree with you 90%


(This post was edited by ZingUK on Jan 15, 13 12:37)


TravisT

Jan 15, 13 12:13

Post #325 of 390 (2089 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

ZingUK wrote:
BDoughtie wrote:
I don't want to search who you are. I would assume you'd have enough respect for our discussion that when you make it "personal" you atleast stand behind that. I've not said anything negative about sutton, teamTBB or you or anyone. I've stated my thoughts, brought up facts that sutton and teamTBB willingly talk about. So again,I was hoping for a civil discussion, and ill just let your posts speak for the manner in which you gone to, to make/prove a point. And that's all good, I've stuck to the facts in this situation and would hope you could atleast respect that. But if you need to call me a coward, call me a coward. I am happy with the fact that this thread has opened alot of eyes and its evident by who is and isn't posting anymore. So in that manner, I think we've been able to shed more light into teamTBB and sutton and how they are handling his interactions with juniors in the sport.


I'm also posting my views and just trying to understand where other people's views come from. Belive I do respect your viewpoint and I agree with you 90%

The reason Jordan et al have gone quiet is they have professional reputation to protect. I would bet you $100 they haven't particularly changed thier views 180 degrees otherwise they would come on and say as much.....silence does not provie anything one way or the other, that's why silence is so powerful

In this case though silence does nothing to protect their reputations, it only lowers them even further that they will continue to lend their tact support even in light of the information that has come out on this thread.
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ZingUK

Jan 15, 13 12:19

Post #326 of 390 (2527 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [TravisT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

TravisT wrote:
ZingUK wrote:
BDoughtie wrote:
I don't want to search who you are. I would assume you'd have enough respect for our discussion that when you make it "personal" you atleast stand behind that. I've not said anything negative about sutton, teamTBB or you or anyone. I've stated my thoughts, brought up facts that sutton and teamTBB willingly talk about. So again,I was hoping for a civil discussion, and ill just let your posts speak for the manner in which you gone to, to make/prove a point. And that's all good, I've stuck to the facts in this situation and would hope you could atleast respect that. But if you need to call me a coward, call me a coward. I am happy with the fact that this thread has opened alot of eyes and its evident by who is and isn't posting anymore. So in that manner, I think we've been able to shed more light into teamTBB and sutton and how they are handling his interactions with juniors in the sport.


I'm also posting my views and just trying to understand where other people's views come from. Belive I do respect your viewpoint and I agree with you 90%

The reason Jordan et al have gone quiet is they have professional reputation to protect. I would bet you $100 they haven't particularly changed thier views 180 degrees otherwise they would come on and say as much.....silence does not provie anything one way or the other, that's why silence is so powerful


In this case though silence does nothing to protect their reputations, it only lowers them even further that they will continue to lend their tact support even in light of the information that has come out on this thread.

Another one refusing to reply to the questions. Thank you TravisT for also being very predicable. I have no idea what thier silence means, perhaps just there are more circumspect than you are, who knows?


TravisT

Jan 15, 13 12:27

Post #327 of 390 (2508 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Why don't you go back and read my response to your questions above then rewrite that post. You are in such a frenzy to attack people on here you don't even take the time to fully read their responses.
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BDoughtie

Jan 15, 13 12:27

Post #328 of 390 (2503 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] (Deleted by BDoughtie) [In reply to]

 


ZingUK

Jan 15, 13 12:30

Post #329 of 390 (2499 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [TravisT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

TravisT wrote:
Why don't you go back and read my response to your questions above then rewrite that post. You are in such a frenzy to attack people on here you don't even take the time to fully read their responses.

I honestly don't really understand what you mean? In the original post I put up with the questions I mentioned you by name as one of the people I'd like to hear your response and you didn't answer the questions so that's why I responded the way I did simply stating the truth not attacking. If there is confusion in my understanding of your response I apologies, I did re-read it and came to the same conclusion.


ZingUK

Jan 15, 13 12:34

Post #330 of 390 (2490 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

BDoughtie wrote:
I don't want to take your money and I've already heard 1st hand about their thinking. So you would be wrong in your thinking.

They are silent mainly because of their reputation. With the info that has been provided, it doesn't make much sense in trying to justify why they talk up or went with sutton. With better understanding they probaly see that it's just not a valid point to try and defend why they worked with him (while admitting that they thought sutton was not interacting with juniors anymore and thus could justify working with him among other reasons).

Like I said I'm glad this info is out there because from the comments I've received, it's been very enlightening.

Likewise if Sutton really is working with kids then I'm also happy its out there, of course it should stop. If he happens to be in a room with kids supervised (and I don't mean on a regular basis, eg giving a talk about sports performance of something) then again I can live with that, I simply don't see the threat especially after 20+ of that threat never materialising (yes I'm waiting for someone to say "that we know of")

I have also received private messages so perhaps people are just telling us what they think we want to hear, who knows?


TravisT

Jan 15, 13 12:35

Post #331 of 390 (2486 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Post #318. Still not sure why you are hell bent on insulting and attacking people who care about what should be an important issue.
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BDoughtie

Jan 15, 13 12:35

Post #332 of 390 (2485 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I deleted my last post and will rewrite it here. I don't any to take your money and based on 1st hand interactions, ill say your wrong. Ill just leave it at that and wait to see if others chime in. They may or they may not, and I understand why they won't.
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ajthomas

Jan 15, 13 12:36

Post #333 of 390 (2481 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

ZingUK wrote:
ajthomas wrote:
ZingUK wrote:
so if anyone had access to mnors and expressed his sexuality towards them and created an adultation culture 100 more powerful than Sutton's it would be Elvis.


Did it occur to you that the reason you will receive deathly silence is because your question is preposterous?


Nope, not in the slightest. I'm asking people about thier priciples across the board. Why is it preposterous, is Elvis' rape of Precillas somehow different from Suttons? Isn't that me asking about the same thing?

You didn't ask about anyone's principles across the board. You asked what they think of Elvis.

If you want to know what my principles are across the board they would be this: A person who committed a great crime should be given the opporunity to show remorse for what they did and the opportunity to reform their fatal flaws. But every individual is different. I will allow Sutton the courtesy of not judging him the way I judge the Elvis - a man who died alone in a hotel room form a drug overdose. I do not know if Elvis had regret for what he did and if he worked towards reforming his flaws. I suspect not. So in the end, I judge him a tragic failure. Some people who know him well believe that Sutton has true regret, though I don't think he is working to reform his flaws nor do I think that many of his supporters even understand what those basic flaws are. I am quite certain you do not.

Does that suffienceintly explain why your question is preposterous?


ZingUK

Jan 15, 13 12:36

Post #334 of 390 (2480 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [BDoughtie] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

BDoughtie wrote:
I deleted my last post and will rewrite it here. I don't any to take your money and based on 1st hand interactions, ill say your wrong. Ill just leave it at that and wait to see if others chime in. They may or they may not, and I understand why they won't.

Agreed, not fair to pull other in so I will also delete the $100 bet post


ZingUK

Jan 15, 13 12:41

Post #335 of 390 (2468 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ajthomas] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

ajthomas wrote:
[
You didn't ask about anyone's principles across the board. You asked what they think of Elvis.

If you want to know what my principles are across the board they would be this: A person who committed a great crime should be given the opporunity to show remorse for what they did and the opportunity to reform their fatal flaws. But every individual is different. I will allow Sutton the courtesy of not judging him the way I judge the Elvis - a man who died alone in a hotel room form a drug overdose. I do not know if Elvis had regret for what he did and if he worked towards reforming his flaws. I suspect not. So in the end, I judge him a tragic failure. Some people who know him well believe that Sutton has true regret, though I don't think he is working to reform his flaws nor do I think that many of his supporters even understand what those basic flaws are. I am quite certain you do not.

Does that suffienceintly explain why your question is preposterous?

A good answer and at least you are balanced s in a sense that is what I am trying to get at. Are people balanced in their views, I think not and I think the attacks and comments made by some people are unfair. I asked the question about someone who is a well known all American heor (as I said before) to see who would have the same outrage against him to at least get people to think about what they are saying. No I still don't think it's preposterous in a discussion like this to ask people why they say what they say and if their thinking is consistent. The fact that no one has directly answered the questions (at least you semi answered them) tells it's own story, they are uncomfortable speaking about someone some of them have possibly listend to and enjoyed for many years without a hint of guilt or screaming that he was a paedophile. That's why I think the questions are pertinent


TravisT

Jan 15, 13 12:45

Post #336 of 390 (2454 views)
Re: Brett Sutton Article [ZingUK] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

ZingUK wrote:
ajthomas wrote:
[
You didn't ask about anyone's principles across the board. You asked what they think of Elvis.

If you want to know what my principles are across the board they would be this: A person who committed a great crime should be given the opporunity to show remorse for what they did an