Interesting read!!

Didn;t realize that TBB paid their stars that well. Caroline steffen getting 150K is quite impressive, so much for triathletes living hand to mouth!

For some additional perspective, it's worth reading Brett's most recent post about his own kids. His daughters. For those who rip into him on this forum for the mistake(s) he made, it's some interesting perspective. I used to think the same way - he's a sleeze. Then I realized that I didn't really know him at all and was overlooking the fact that a lot of very smart and capable athletes trust him and care about him a lot. We've since become friends on email. Anyway...

The classic parts of Sutton get hammered on here a lot. This is something very different - http://www.teamtbb.com/...ask=view&id=1534

Then I realized that I didn't really know him at all and was overlooking the fact that a lot of very smart and capable athletes trust him and care about him a lot. We've since become friends on email. Anyway...

For some additional perspective, it's worth reading Brett's most recent post about his own kids. His daughters. For those who rip into him on this forum for the mistake(s) he made, it's some interesting perspective. I used to think the same way - he's a sleeze. Then I realized that I didn't really know him at all and was overlooking the fact that a lot of very smart and capable athletes trust him and care about him a lot. We've since become friends on email. Anyway...

The classic parts of Sutton get hammered on here a lot. This is something very different -http://www.teamtbb.com/...ask=view&id=1534[/quote[/url]]


How many of those people do you think would trust and care about him if they didn't think he could make them into world class athletes? The success of someone makes us forget, forgive and overlook a lot of things. This might not be the worst case but it's a somewhat scary phenomena.

As for the article you link I do agree with quite a few things but I think some of it is extremely simplified. For example I'd bet that the biggest difference between swiss and brazilian soccer is not how they practice. The total amount of soccer players and the amount of time they spend playing soccer dwarfs any other factor in this comparsion. Kids have different possiblities and consequently different priorities in some parts of the world.

---

BA coaching http://www.bjornandersson.se Winter training camp http://www.racycles.com/...with-bjorn-andersson

For some additional perspective, it's worth reading Brett's most recent post about his own kids. His daughters. For those who rip into him on this forum for the mistake(s) he made, it's some interesting perspective. I used to think the same way - he's a sleeze. Then I realized that I didn't really know him at all and was overlooking the fact that a lot of very smart and capable athletes trust him and care about him a lot. We've since become friends on email. Anyway...

The classic parts of Sutton get hammered on here a lot. This is something very different - http://www.teamtbb.com/...ask=view&id=1534

What he did wasn't a mistake; it was a failure of morality. I assure you a longer list of smart and capable athletes trusted and cared about Joe Paterno- what are your thoughts on him? Then remember that his was a failure to act while Sutton's is more on the Sandusky level.

Sutton's coaching accomplishments mean little to me and how he treats his daughters means substantially less than how he treated another man's little girl.

To compare Sutton with Sandusky is a travesty. Sutton had one consensual relationship with a 14/15 year old girl that he coached. The police interviewed every single other athlete he coached and there was no other incidence. He did wrong no doubt. It was a different time and he is a different person now. On balance I think he has done more good than harm on earth.

-third, and most interesting to me, is the relationship of presumed antagonism between sutton and . . . almost everyone else. again and again in his articles the theme emerges that it's sutton against the world, that he's the only rational man in a world of idiots, that he has to constantly rail against all manner of people and things. weird and sort of tiresome.

-mike

Its a distasteful topic granted but you are assuming that a 14/15 year old girl has no sexual drive, and it's pretty clear that is incorrect.
from all reports she seduced him and he never said that once in public to protect her.

There is so much difference between Sandusky using power to Seduce 12 year old boys and Sutton that if you really think the only difference is the number of people affected you are simpy wrong.

What he did wasn't a mistake; it was a failure of morality. I assure you a longer list of smart and capable athletes trusted and cared about Joe Paterno- what are your thoughts on him? Then remember that his was a failure to act while Sutton's is more on the Sandusky level.

Sutton's coaching accomplishments mean little to me and how he treats his daughters means substantially less than how he treated another man's little girl.

To compare Sutton with Sandusky is a travesty. Sutton had one consensual relationship with a 14/15 year old girl that he coached. The police interviewed every single other athlete he coached and there was no other incidence. He did wrong no doubt. It was a different time and he is a different person now. On balance I think he has done more good than harm on earth.

his job as the ADULT and COACH was to NOT be seduced.
I don't care if she got naked and crawled on top of him

It would have been unfortunate if Wellington had continued to race had her heart not been in it any more... sad is when 20+ people get gunned down in Connecticut.

Every IM she raced she won, set records, and elevated the game of women's long course multisport. She went out on top, undefeated. I'm not sure why people think this is sad - I think it's refrshing.

A 14 year old can't consent in most juriadictions

Maybe she accomplished all she ever wanted to, we'll never know. We assume so much nowadays.

"What could have been with Chrissie"

What the heck are you talking about... she accomplished everything and in many eyes, including my own, was the best ever. She was never beaten. What else more where you expecting? How many titles is enough?

Of course we lost something special when she retired.

I said as much in my original post. Impossible to say about her inner motivations and state.
But I loved having her in the sport and selfishly wish she hadn't retired.

The difference is that every athlete who signs up with Sutton knows about his past. He admitted to his crime, and it was a heinous crime; I do not deny, and neither does Brett. And he served the sentence he was given. That is - to me anyway - a significant difference. I respect that you may not see that as being a difference or being significant.

What I like about Brett is that - in contrast to a lot of people who have transgressed in serious ways - he does NOT want people to forget what he's done. He wants them to forgive it. And he's working hard to earn that forgiveness, in spite of the fact that he knows that a lot of people will never give it.

---

Chrissie said that she had given as much as she could to Ironman and was now moving on to persue other things in life.It was a hard decision for her but one she is very happy with..It is really that simple..

----

To compare Sutton with Sandusky is a travesty. Sutton had one consensual relationship with a 14/15 year old girl that he coached. The police interviewed every single other athlete he coached and there was no other incidence. He did wrong no doubt. It was a different time and he is a different person now. On balance I think he has done more good than harm on earth.

Do you realize what you have written? An adult having a 'consensual relationship' with a 14 year old..? That's pretty sick.
Sutton & Lance - they'd make good pair. It's everyone else's fault.

His questionable behaviour didn't stop after the multiple incidents with the 14 year old girl.

Save the drama queen act sweetheart.

I said that is was wrong. What I am saying is that there are degrees of wrong and what he did it is not in the same post code as what Sandusky did or what every second catholic priest has done all over the world that are still protected by that evil corporation, even today.

If you feel that what he did and molesting 6-12 year old boys are the same because there are no degrees of wrong, just either right or wrong, then go ahead. I just don't see it that way.

He has paid for what he did again and again and will continue to do so for the rest of his life. Its part of the reason he is doing so much good at the moment as he is trying to make amends.

And by the way, the girl in question married on of Australia's top triathletes (now Tri coach) and has been for over ten years. She's fine.

just curious as to what you feel chrissie could do to better the sport? (being sincere here)...

other than raising the bar for women's competition im really not sure what she's done. i dont see increased prize purses for pros. i dont know a single person who didnt know anything about triathlon before who now all of a sudden knows who chrissie is. i dont know any current triathletes who go 'im going to race more because of chrissie, shes so inspirational'...what am i missing here?

dont get me wrong shes a great personality and i love watching her race but im not sure what tangible impact shes had.

The letters Dan received in reply to that column are worth reading. Among them is a letter from Sutton himself that is definitely worth reading.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/.../opinion/sutton.html

Suffice to say I'm willing to stack my morals up against anyone's, but go ahead and question them like some of you have Rapp's....

Forgive me for being short, it is flu season and our resources are stretched thin trying to figure out who has the sniffles and who has the flu. Maybe it isn't as tiring as a Brett Sutton workout, but when you get to tell a kid he can go home and play Xbox with his brother it makes the long days worth it. Reminds me why I chose to work in a children's hospital- kids are precious and innocent and it is all of our responsibilities to keep them safe.

That having been said, we can now stack morals. I spend my days, and lately nights, trying to keep kids healthy and safe. You work for and publicly defend a man who as a 27 year old male used his position of authority to sexually abuse a 14 year old girl. A crime he pleaded guilty to and never spent a day in prison for. He is, however, contrite about the whole ordeal. Are we done stacking?

Look, here is the truth. I don't think you or Jordan or Chrissie or any other member of team tbb are bad people for working with Brett. I think you all know that interactions with him can aid your careers and I think you are willing to buy the line he has managed to sell you about him molesting a 14 year old girl. None of you would have given him a chance if he wasn't as good a coach as he is. And none of you would work with him if he didn't convince you that he is remorseful and reformed. Thing is, I am fairly certain Sutton knows all this and knows his success depends on convincing folks to look past his actions.
You aren't bad people; you are people buying a load of crap from a piece of shit. I think the professional success that piece of shit can offer is what brought you in the door to the showroom and I think the convincing sales pitch is what sold you. You aren't bad people, you are just human.

... Yes, Amy and I are two of those athletes who must have questionable morals for choosing to go to TeamTBB and work with Brett.....

Forgive me for being short, it is flu season and our resources are stretched thin trying to figure out who has the sniffles and who has the flu. Maybe it isn't as tiring as a Brett Sutton workout, but when you get to tell a kid he can go home and play Xbox with his brother it makes the long days worth it. Reminds me why I chose to work in a children's hospital- kids are precious and innocent and it is all of our responsibilities to keep them safe.

That having been said, we can now stack morals. I spend my days, and lately nights, trying to keep kids healthy and safe. You work for and publicly defend a man who as a 27 year old male used his position of authority to sexually abuse a 14 year old girl. A crime he pleaded guilty to and never spent a day in prison for. He is, however, contrite about the whole ordeal. Are we done stacking?

Look, here is the truth. I don't think you or Jordan or Chrissie or any other member of team tbb are bad people for working with Brett. I think you all know that interactions with him can aid your careers and I think you are willing to buy the line he has managed to sell you about him molesting a 14 year old girl. None of you would have given him a chance if he wasn't as good a coach as he is. And none of you would work with him if he didn't convince you that he is remorseful and reformed. Thing is, I am fairly certain Sutton knows all this and knows his success depends on convincing folks to look past his actions.
You aren't bad people; you are people buying a load of crap from a piece of shit. I think the professional success that piece of shit can offer is what brought you in the door to the showroom and I think the convincing sales pitch is what sold you. You aren't bad people, you are just human.

You are of course free to be coached by Sutton for any reason you choose. And I won't question your morals for doing so, even if your decision was born mostly out of convenience (wanting the package deal of sponsorship and coaching with little front-end expense). He may be remorseful for his crime, and he may have paid a high price. He also may have some great ideas about triathlon that many could learn from.

That, however, does not change my opinion that the price he should pay for his crime is a lifetime ban from coaching. But because I have no influence over that, my choice is to simply consider him a persona non grata. I likewise feel that way about any athlete who chooses to be coached by him, and any companies that sponsor his team.

My choice may or may not be logical or fair, but that's what it is until someone changes my mind otherwise.

and it was not "CONSENSUAL".

Any ladies want to chime in?

I am a mother.
It greatly disturbs me that Coach Sutton, convicted child molester, claims the minor athlete trusted to his care "consented".
Her parents trusted him sufficiently to make him a "godfather" of her sibling.

I find I cannot cheer for athletes on TBB.
I don't want Sutton to get any more spotlight as a coach.
Had I known about his past and Cervelo's sponsorship at the time, I would never have purchased my P3.

Since you asked.

These same people who will support Sutton and talk about how he is reformed and his actions don't matter because time has passed or the girl is now happily married (that one totally blew my mind) are the same ones who want to see LA destroyed for doping and being an asshole to people even if he were to come out and confess. This is not a defense of LA it's simply unbelievable where some people place their priorities.

Would you hire Victor Conte of Balco to provide you legit and legal nutritional product that would help your performance, knowing the implications?

Would you hire Dr. Michele Ferrari if he were to provide you legit and legal medical services, knowing the implications?

Yep.

No.

Rappstar wrote:

For a guy who hammers other people about making assumptions, you are making a whole bunch yourself right there about my post. Why do you assume that I'm talking about titles? By not racing, her influence on the sport is diminished. I'm sure there are some who will disagree with that, but when she retired, she sacrificed a lot of her platform. I think Chrissie could have changed the sport in much, much more meaningful ways than just raising the bar on competition. She still might. But I think it will be harder to do that if she is not racing. Now, I don't think she needed to do that, by any means. She gave the sport and all of us a lot. But I think there was really no limit to what she could have done within the sport as a leader. And THAT is what I mean when I say "what could have been." And that's also what I think Brett is referring to.

Where is the disagreement, in light of what you wrote after this?

Just clarifying that people can be consistent in criticizing both parties. The implication form the above post is that people who support one automatically damn the other.

For the record, I am not now and never have been a part of Team TBB. Brett is not now and never has been my coach. I do not "work with" Brett in any capacity. I do not seek his advice, input, or anything else in any capacity that would further my career. What knowledge I have gleaned from him, I have gleaned from what he writes on twitter, interviews he does, etc. There is no weighing of "well, on the one hand, Brett abused a minor, but on the other hand, he could help me win a lot of races." I have none of that. I do not ask Brett for advice. I have a coach - Michael Krueger. I trust him, and I do not need to second guess what he's doing with Brett. Just so we are clear.

I haven't been brought into any showroom. I haven't bought a load of crap. But you are right that I am human. And in being human I thought about the mistakes that I've made in my life. And some of them have been pretty massive. I've thought about the fact that I don't know this man at all outside of two things - 1) he committed a heinous crime that he owned up to and 2) he seems to care a great deal about making right for a very, very serious wrong that he committed. So I decided that it was not my place to judge him. And I decided to give him the benefit of the doubt.

After Ironman Texas, Brett wrote a short but complimentary tweet about me. So I asked Brandon for Brett's email. I wrote to Brett and said, paraphrasing slightly for brevity, "I saw what you wrote on twitter. Thank you. But you should know that I've said some pretty harsh and condemning things about you in very public forums. I feel badly about having done that, because I realized I don't actually know you or really know what happened other than - at best - some 3rd hand accounts. I assumed you were a scumbag because you did something awful. But people change. And based off what I know about you from people whose opinion I value - like Brandon - you don't actually seem like a scumbag. Anyway..."

I didn't really write it expecting much of a reply. I just wrote it because I did not feel good about having sat in judgement - like plenty of folks on this thread have done and are doing - of someone I don't really know. That's not the person I want to be. That's it. That's why I wrote to Brett. And when he wrote back, he wrote something very similar to that letter to Dan. He thanked me, but said he lives with what he's done every day. And nothing can change that. But he's doing his best to try and make up for it. I take him at his word. If you don't that's fine. But ours is not a relationship of personal gain. I don't profit from Brett. And he doesn't profit from me.

I wrote to him most recently - I write about once a month or so - because I enjoyed his blog about kids' sports. And because I didn't know he was a father - he has two sets of kids from two marriages - 25, 22, 21 from #1 and 9 & 7 from #2. We talked a bit about running shoes. And then he asked me to share the post about the kids. He told me that he doesn't really care about people reading his coaching stuff, but that he cared a lot about the way we are affecting our kids through sport, and that he'd appreciate my sharing that post. Now, maybe that's a load of crap. And maybe I bought it. I'll accept that. I just don't want to be that cynical. I don't think the world is that dark. And I hope I never do...

To the poster who said Brett is not Pete Rose, I think you misunderstand the analogy. What Pete did - fundamentally - was to violate trust. That's the same thing that Brett did. Pete violated his stewardship of the game. Brett also violated his stewardship. Now, this is certainly not to equate statutory rape with betting on baseball. It's to analogize that their crimes directly impacted their role as stewards. E.g., if Brett had committed the same crime with a girl who Brett was not coaching, Dan would not have drawn that analogy. It is the violation of trust by a steward that led Dan to make that analogy. If you focus only on the severity of the crimes, you miss that. And I think it's important. I respect that other people may not.

What troubles me about this thread, more than anything, is that everyone assumes that people are acting solely out of self-interest. Have we really all become Homo economicus or some sort of Ayn Rand-ian traders who care only "what's in it for me?" I pray - and I'm not any sort of religious - that we haven't...

Jordan your support/friendship of Sutton is a bit of a catch-22. On one hand your accessibility on here and explanations of your thought process is something we all appreciate. Conversely you have lost a LOT of credibility with me and many others with this. For someone as intelligent as you it's surprising that all it took to turn you around on him was a supportive tweet and an email. You think he's not going to come off as credible to you? It's something straight out of the LA PR playbook. It's even more disturbing that you would actively share and promote anything he put out related to kids, sports and coaching. That just dropped you even lower. Although what he says may make sense there are plenty of other credible sources with the same message who didn't do what he did.

Gotta disagree here. You may argue consensuality of a 16/17 year old and I might buy that based upon maturity, life experience, but I would still err on it being immoral, less immoral if the ages are close, like a 18 year old with a 16 year old. Still wrong. Something I have and lived by being off limits.

<snip>What on earth can you possibly know about his heart, intentions and thinking?</snip>

<snip>But I'm surprised that you'll use his contribution to the sport as one of the criteria for deciding if he's reformed.<snip>

<snip>And why is he so important to the sport that you're on here promoting him?</snip>

<snip>He raped a teen girl. By definition, that makes him a scumbag. A forever scumbag? In my eyes, yes (no matter how contrite he now is). Apparently not in yours.<snip>

Just for definition sake: boyfriend and girlfriend of 15 and 13 2 years 4 months about. When he turns 18 and she's got 4 months until 16, is that immoral? When she's 16 or 17 is that still wrong? is it only wrong if they have sex? What if the girl turns 18 first and the boy is just shy of 16. Please tell me the moral guidelines there.

Nothing. And that's why I chose to change my opinion in advance of anything else. I decided to stop thinking the worst and to take a more optimistic view. I changed my opinion before I ever wrote to Brett. Maybe I'm a sucker. I can live with that.

I should be dead. But I'm not because some random stranger decided to do something remarkable. Of course, some other random stranger decided to do something terrible. But I'd rather assume the best in people, because I just find that to be the worldview I want to pass on to my son.



What else should I use?



Because he has a lot of wisdom to share. And because I think if there's one thing that the sporting world, triathlon in particular but sports in general, is short on, it's real wisdom.



For the record, I think that he's a forever scumbag too. And I think that he believes he's a forever scumbag too. I just don't think that's ALL he is.

It's human nature to assume that people are basically all X, whatever X is. It's in our basic psychology. We have a very hard time reconciling that good people do bad things and vice versa. You see this in particular with Lance. People believe he didn't dope because of his charity work. And on the flipside, people believe his charity work is a sham because of his massive crimes with regards to doping. I believe that his charity work is genuine and that he genuinely cares about cancer patients. The mission Livestrong makes sense when you think about why Lance almost died - it was not that his cancer was rare or untreatable; it was that he didn't get the right advice early enough, which is what - in part - Livestrong aims to do. People like to quote the 2007 article on Charity Watch that says it cost Livestrong "as much as 45 cents to raise $1." And they ignore the fact that as of 2011 - using 2010 returns - over the history of the charity, over $0.80 of every $1 has gone directly to programs/outreach/etc. I believe that Livestrong is legitimate for the exact same reason that I believe Lance was a fraud and a cheat as an athlete - it's the consensus based on evidence. The tax returns, the Livestrong employees (you don't think one Livestrong employee would roll on Lance if it was a fraud?), etc. Just like it's impossible to say that Lance did not commit atrocious acts of intimidation, fraud, malice, etc as an athlete with all of the evidence surrounding that, I think it's equally impossible to say that Livestrong does not do good work. Now, that's a very hard thing to reconcile in our brains. The easiest way to do it is to assume that the charity work is just a facade. But I don't believe that. I think it's genuine. I think he genuinely cares about the work that Livestrong does in a (mostly) altruistic way. And I also think he's a pathological liar, a fraud, a cheat, and worse. He forced athletes to put their lives at risk by doping; he ruined careers and reputations willfully and vindictively. I think he operates at more polar extremes than the typical person, but I think everyone has good and bad in them. I think it's rare that someone can be so skewed, but I don't believe it's impossible. I would certainly like to see Lance held accountable for his crimes to a much greater degree than he has been. He RUINED a lot of lives. But he also made a profound positive difference in a lot of lives. I want him to pay for his crimes. And to pay dearly. But I don't want to see him totally destroyed as a human being. I don't want to see done to him what he did to others. I do not want, "an eye for an eye." I understand that other people do, and I respect that. I'd just ask that people respect that other people's sense of justice may differ.

Is Brett manipulative, authoritarian, and otherwise precisely the kind of the person who would prey on a female minor over whom he had authority. Yes, he is. And he did precisely that. But I also think he's a father and a mentor who cares a lot about people. I expect that whatever lead him to make that terrible, terrible decision is still very much a part of his psyche. But I also don't think it's his whole person.

The world is most comfortable to our brains when it's black and white. But I don't actually think the world is very black and white. Or, more specifically, I don't think that people are very black and white. Actions? Sure. Brett committed - no shades of grey - an atrocity. But does that make him - as a person - an atrocity? I don't want to take that view of the world. If people think less of me because of that, I'm okay with that.

"Just like it's impossible to say that Lance did not commit atrocious acts of intimidation, fraud, malice, etc. . ." (Rappstar)

Do you believe LA's teammates were afraid of being incinerated by him (Tygart)?

Lance is super human, but really?

Some of this rhetoric is an exaggeration.

So you think the fact that he committed statutory rape means that he shouldn't be allowed to offer comments on the athletic development of children? I fail to see how those two things are related.

"I think that it's crazy that we have our young kids doing core exercises and running in 'stability' shoes."

"Your opinion doesn't matter because you raped a child."

Is that, in summary, what you are saying? That doesn't make any sense to me.

And you think less of me because I choose to forgive him for the crime which he committed? That makes more sense to me, because I understand that it's important that we share a basic understanding of morality and consequence. But I'm not saying what Sutton did is okay; I'm just saying I don't believe it defines him as a person.

Sutton lost his ability to ever have any place in the coaching world

I think this is a fair philosophy, but you seem to not share the same line of thinking when it comes to an athlete having a place in the athletic world after years of organized cheating.

Do you feel there is a significant distinction there, or do we as humans just tend to more easily forgive the people that we find inspiring or amazing?

I really don't want to devolve this thread into another LA one. See my comment to Tribeer above.

That said I simply don't care about what LA and did nothing is going to get me to. I fully appreciate people and their position who feel LA nor Sutton have a place in sport. They argue from a consistent place. If you somehow feel that LA's actions are worse then child molestation, and that is what it was despite some of the idiots who want to shade it grey on here, thenI have some serious issues with where you draw the line on right and wrong. Sure LA doped, he broke rules, probably caused some pain and suffering in the lives of others but for me that doesn't reach the level of what Sutton did. I have no issue with you disagreeing with my lack of care regarding LA but comparing the actions of both is a sliding scale and Sutton falls far lower down. If you live in a world of black and white morality, and I don't think you at least do, then it would be impossible to reconcile how I see it but most people aren't like that.

I read what Dev wrote, and I agree it's well thought out. I agree with some. Disagree with other parts. But I don't think any less of Dev as a person because of what we disagree on.

That's what I find confusing about your stance. I don't have a problem disagreeing with you. That is what I am not worried about. And while I certainly respect your write to think less of me, it does make me sad.

In other words, I don't care that you and I have different opinions. But I do care that my opinion makes you think less of me as a person. Now, I'm not going to change my opinion simply to make you like me, but I think it's unfortunate that we can't agree to disagree and also maintain a respect for each other.

I think the Lance "debate" (which is less of debate than people shouting at each other) really has highlighted this here on this forum, but it's most pervasive in modern politics. And it troubles me. As someone who supports Lance, I thought you might have taken a less "with me or against me" attitude. I don't think less of you because you choose to have a different opinion of Lance than I do. FWIW, which maybe isn't very much...

A lot of the non american world doesn't care much about what Brett did either. Just different levels of 'shock and awe' there across cultures.

Dubai is a great place to race isn't it :-)

I should have worded that differently. I don't think less of you as person it just affects how I view you as a spokesman and someone I listen to and look up to in the sport of triathlon. Your opinions and actions carry far more weight then mine do in the sport and you are going to get held to a much higher standard. There are a lot of people who feel that despite Sutton's apparent contrition for his actions, which I feel are much like LA's contrition will be in that he's just saying what he needs to, he has no place in coaching. Your support of him lends credence to his place in the sport though and touting his opinions on something related to kids lends even more support to an area of the sport he should absolutely never under any circumstance have a place or even deserve an opinion in.

Thanks. That was a great reply. Some stuff - a lot of stuff - I agree with. Other stuff, I just can't. I will give Nicola Spirig as a brief example. Brett wrote about her after the Olympics that they talked about what she should do now. Brett said that she and Reto Hug (her partner) should start a family; that she'd achieved everything there was to achieve in sport, and that what was important now was to pass on the gifts she had as an athlete and as a person. I read that post and saw it as genuine. Maybe you didn't read it. Maybe you did but drew a different conclusion. In any case, I disagree that there are no examples of him guiding his athletes to be better people.

He did the same with Chrissie. She struggled because she saw triathlon as "meaningless." Brett told that through triathlon, she could gain a platform that she could then use for meaningful change, which is what I think she wants to do now. Again, that doesn't seem to me to be the advice of someone who is incapable of guiding his athletes to better people.

I don't disagree that it would be appropriate to ban him from coaching minors. As far as I know, he doesn't coach minors. I don't think that he should be banned from coaching entirely - partly because I don't see how that's really enforceable - but I appreciate your reasons for why he should. And, in general, I don't disagree with any of what you wrote about needing to enforce the laws and morals of society. But I do disagree that there is no evidence of real wisdom.

"Just like it's impossible to say that Lance did not commit atrocious acts of intimidation, fraud, malice, etc. . ." (Rappstar)

Do you believe LA's teammates were afraid of being incinerated by him (Tygart)?

Lance is super human, but really?

Some of this Lance rhetoric is an exaggeration. Overall, if Jordan can forgive Mr. Sutton, he can soften is position of Lance. Maybe not today, but some day!

Now, if you are asking me if Sutton should be barred from coaching minors? Yes I do. And - as far as I know - he does not coach any minors. His article on kids' sports was based on his own children. Do I think that he should have been barred from having children? Even though I mean that as a rhetorical question, I'll actually answer it and say I don't.

That Obama fine analogy is BS, for a variety of reasons. Addressing the aspect of it being the largest ever, well his campaign also raised the most money ever, and other campaigns have received similar fines when you consider the actual size of the respective campaigns and the amounts raised. I figured we could dismiss that right away and then either move it to the LR for further discussion or just drop it altogether, I am fine with either.

With regards to this line you keep repeating about it being hard to ban someone from coaching, so just because it's hard means we shouldn't do it? To swing back to a political analogy, that's like saying "Ah, there is no easy answer to stop this gun violence, so let's just do nothing".

I could be wrong, but isn't Sutton banned from coaching in Australia? I am almost certain there is a ban on him coaching somewhere, so some federation has figured it out. Going back to my original analogy, let's say an LA cop is dismissed from the force for police brutality, would you then be OK with him joining the NYPD? Even though he violated the most basic trust of his position of authority?

Going to say the same thing to you Ben I did to Tribeer. Can you seriously not find enough LA action elsewhere that you have to hijack every thread that might be remotely related?

That's part of my problem with bans, in general, of any kind. Where do you draw the line? I actually think this is a more interesting discussion in a lot of ways than even whether or not someone should be banned. What does a ban really mean? What if an athlete asks Sutton for advice over email? Is that coaching?

For an already established coach, those regulations dont really matter though. It's as you say, being "banned" only means you cant basically be an representative of said country or get any of their benefits. Hell, look at how many top athletes have flocked to Sutton after all of this. We have pro's on this thread already saying they've pretty much ok'd/accepted/forgiven what has happened to Sutton's past, because they could gain athletic achievement under him. ETA: And I'm not saying that's wrong, it's pretty much a personal decision that each has to face.

I dont think any country makes coaches be certified, whether working with kids or not. I know of several coaches in my area (Raleigh) that work with and hold kid triathlon camps/races that arent certified with anyone (nor will they ever be).

Along a similar line...

How do we feel about Roman Polanski? And actors who have worked with him? And directors who give him public credit?

Cuts out a lot of movies to watch while riding indoors...