Login required to started new threads

Login required to post replies

Prev Next
Re: Tempo, threshold, or VO2max? [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
FYI on your HR statement - your racing HR is routinely higher than what you are able to achieve in training, so it may still exceed your threshold HR. Threshold HR can be determined by doing a 1-hour tt with constant pacing.

Regarding your HIM performance, focusing on volume is exactly what you should do, because training load is mostly a function of volume (vs. intensity). The more you train, the better you can expect to perform (at ANY distance), as long as you taper before your race to shed fatigue and you avoid nonfunctional overreaching or overtraining by limiting the duration of the high-volume training block.
Quote Reply
Re: Tempo, threshold, or VO2max? [desert dude] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
+1

Not often we get the heavy hitters out to play.
Quote Reply
Re: Tempo, threshold, or VO2max? [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The one thing that hasn't been addressed in this thread is periodization. I don't know (maybe I missed it) how much time before your race but why not do intervals at all the intensities listed? Phil's green book lays out such a strategy if I recall correctly.

As an example, split up your 3-4 month training period into 3 blocks, each 4-5 weeks in duration:
Block 1: 1 workout per week of VO2max intervals to raise your max
Block 2: 1-2 FTP sessions per week (1 @ 2x20 and 1 @ 2x10, or something like that)
Block 3: 1 workout per week of HIM ride simulation featuring goal race-pace intervals (which happen to fall in the tempo intensity for HIM racing). You should also have 1 x FTP session mid-week.
(Block 4 = Taper)

Seems like a balanced approach to me, with physiological limiters being addressed early on followed by race-specific workouts as the race draws nearer.

If you don't have time to do all 3 blocks then start the progression at the earliest point for which you do have time.
Quote Reply
Re: Tempo, threshold, or VO2max? [dave_voyageur] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
dave_voyageur wrote:
FYI on your HR statement - your racing HR is routinely higher than what you are able to achieve in training, so it may still exceed your threshold HR. Threshold HR can be determined by doing a 1-hour tt with constant pacing.

Regarding your HIM performance, focusing on volume is exactly what you should do, because training load is mostly a function of volume (vs. intensity). The more you train, the better you can expect to perform (at ANY distance), as long as you taper before your race to shed fatigue and you avoid nonfunctional overreaching or overtraining by limiting the duration of the high-volume training block.

Agree. FWIW, I focused almost exclusively on volume for my first HIM since I was new to it, and knew that not slowing down would gain me more time that a better top end speed. I did almost no short speedwork - 1200s were the shortest run intervals I did, and on the bike, pretty much 4-6 minutes on / 2 off were the shortest intervals I did, and I only did one interval session per week in the last 4 weeks. If I felt the intervals were compromising my volume, I kept the volume and shortened the speedwork (only happened once.) It worked out great - I even exceeded my "A" race target as a result.

ANother interesting thing I found was that I found it easier to put up big training hours over and over again than to do tempo or tempo+ work. I'm certainly not short on time with a full time job and a 2 year old, but you get get 90mins-2hrs in every morning if you get up at 4AM, and with a lunch swim and then long run/bike on weekend, I was easily over 16hrs/ week. Almost all of it was slower than tempo, but with my next goaround now that I've got the experience and miles, I'm going to try and get paces up to tempo range for more of it.
Quote Reply
Re: Tempo, threshold, or VO2max? [dave_voyageur] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Brad Hudson takes that approach in his book. He calls for doing multiple intensities throughout the phases to give the body a great deal of "general" fitness which then builds to "specific" fitness. A good book to read. I don't have a problem using multiple intensities in training, just to say keep the higher stuff low key in the beginning. I think it's fair to say stick in the base phase until you aren't improving any more with sub threshold efforts, then move to the higher intensities for further improvement. A bit like mark Allen used to do where he would improve at a set heart rate each week he was in base training, I wouldn't be that strict with the hr monitor but the basic idea is well founded.
Quote Reply
Re: Tempo, threshold, or VO2max? [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
That 20 minute accerlator plan is written by a guest coach and targeted for members of BeginnerTriathlete.com.

For our general Base/Build plans here's how they are laid out:

Intermediate Base I and II: They focus on sweetspot and move more into threshold with a bit of Vo2 max sprinkled throughout. The farther you get into the plan the more threshold you do and the less sweet spot.

You then have two choices after that, Advanced Build or Intermediate Build.

The two plans are pretty similar besides time on the bike. Both builds have more anerobic and VO2 max work along with plenty of thershold work. The advanced build adds in an endurace ride, longer workouts (90 mintues of over unders for example) and some longer free rides that can be done inside or outside.

I'd suggest following our Base/Build program unless you have a coach that can tailor something more specific for you. They really work. There are two master's champs this year that did these workouts at Indoorpower (TrainerRoad parter's computrainer studio). They are both great TTers. Our model on our homepage is the masters 35+ womens TT champ in fact! Or maybe it's 40+...I forget. Either way she's a champ :).

tldr; Start with sweetspot/threshold, move into Vo2, threshold and anerobic. If you have extra time add sweetspot.

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
Quote Reply
Re: Tempo, threshold, or VO2max? [dave_voyageur] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
dave_voyageur wrote:
The one thing that hasn't been addressed in this thread is periodization. I don't know (maybe I missed it) how much time before your race but why not do intervals at all the intensities listed? Phil's green book lays out such a strategy if I recall correctly.

Yes, you're correct, "Tempo riding is the meat and potatoes of most long course triathlon training." And the sample periodized IM training plan focuses heavily on Zone 2 (aerobic) with little to no Zone 5 (VO2max).

I guess for me I've just gone through 8 months of IM training so I'm not about to start again with an aerobic build. And like I said, I need to get my FTP up which is what's causing some of the confusion.
Quote Reply
Re: Tempo, threshold, or VO2max? [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Nate Pearson wrote:
That 20 minute accerlator plan is written by a guest coach and targeted for members of BeginnerTriathlete.com.

<snip>
tldr; Start with sweetspot/threshold, move into Vo2, threshold and anerobic. If you have extra time add sweetspot.


I was planning to work through the 20min accelerator but it sounds like you'd recommend against that. I'm not sure where to start with the other plans. Like I said, I just finished IM training, should I start with Intermediate Base?
Quote Reply
Re: Tempo, threshold, or VO2max? [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yes, I would start with intermediate base. That's designed for someone just in your position.

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
Quote Reply
Re: Tempo, threshold, or VO2max? [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Nate Pearson wrote:
Yes, I would start with intermediate base. That's designed for someone just in your position.

So for a winter workout regimen what you recommend for someone with workout numbers as follows, for someone that primarily does sprint triathlon (This was on a trainer)? One of my goals for this next year is to break 1 hour in the state TT (I went 1:04 last year, and won't be able to compete it this year).

Moving time: 2:03:49
Distance: 39.52
Work: 1209 kJ
Avg power: 162
Max power: 219
Normalized power: 166
Avg cadence: 69
Avg speed: 19.11
Weight: 174 (2.06 w/kg)

All of the above was in 53x15.

John



Top notch coaching: Francois and Accelerate3 | Follow on Twitter: LifetimeAthlete |
Quote Reply
Re: Tempo, threshold, or VO2max? [Nate Pearson] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Nate Pearson wrote:
Yes, I would start with intermediate base. That's designed for someone just in your position.

Okay, we'll revisit this discussion in 6 weeks...
Quote Reply
Re: Tempo, threshold, or VO2max? [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Oh, I see. You're coming off an 8-hr IM build. Well that changes things somewhat...

In my opinion, you should address your limiter. Is your threshold bumping up against your VO2max? If so, work on your VO2max. If not, you probably ought to work on your threshold. In either case, work for a few weeks on your limiter and then focus on race-pace/power efforts 3-4 weeks out of the race.

More broadly, I find this article very intuitively appealing regarding periodization: http://www.sdxtraining.com/...ticles&Itemid=41

It also happens to suit the seasons much better - i.e., who the hell wants to do "base" training on the trainer?...
Quote Reply
Re: Tempo, threshold, or VO2max? [Philbert] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Philbert wrote:
Hey Fella,

See below...

Quote:
I of course agree with you on most of this, but your associate made a broad sweeping claim that was, well,.. broad and sweeping.


Oh, I'm not here to defend Tilburs per se. He's a sharp guy and I reckon he can do that himself. I just want to clarify what these terms really mean, where they come from and some of the physiological context.

Quote:
As I typically say in my USAC presentations, if you're not a crit racer, An Cap is of little value to you, so, why bother with a "Strengths/Weaknesses" analysis.


It's a fair point. That said, the work I've done since my last MSSE paper has been very interesting with respect to the kinetics of the W'. I reckon it is the kinetics, rather than the absolute size, that really makes all the difference and may have some more significant strategic implications and warrant a careful analysis. Once I get this next paper out we ought to have a beer or something and talk about it.

You coming to ACSM in June? I think you'll dig our (Jones/Vanhatalo/Poole/Skiba) symposium.

Phil
--

Yep, will be there with bells on. See you then.


Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com
Quote Reply
Re: Tempo, threshold, or VO2max? [tilburs] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
tilburs wrote:
Yes.

But in certain circumstances it is also appropriate to work on total work capacity too.

I am NOT suggesting one simply trains with a specificity relating to W' as the sole preparation for an Ironman....just so it's clear.


Total work capacity?? or Anaerobic work capacity??

It seems you're referring to W as opposed to total work capacity and I would argue that there are very few circumstances where training this parameter should be much of a priority in IM racing. Unfortunately, in debating the issue, we open many more cans of worms that I'm not willing to get into simply due to time constraints. Previously, I criticized you for making broad sweeping statements, but I will make one here. There is very little ROI in training AWC (or W' if you like) as a priority in IM racing. As you and Phil have both pointed out, it's mutually exclusive to improving CP (or FTP or whatever you like), so, I don't see the point in focusing on it.... period.

All the above being said, all of the athletes I work with, do some anaerobic training pretty much year round.


Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com
Last edited by: S McGregor: Sep 30, 12 17:47
Quote Reply
Re: Tempo, threshold, or VO2max? [Philbert] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Philbert wrote:
This is an interesting point, and one I'll address in some detail in my forthcoming book. There are a few things worth keeping in mind here:

1) Yes, for an HIM, I'd suggest spending some considerable time there. For most decent athletes, throwing a few (no more than 4...seriously) 10 - 20 minute intervals at "tempo" power in per week will be more than enough.

2) The athletes I have seen in both the medical and coaching arenas who have developed non-functional overreaching or bona-fide overtraining syndrome (irrespective of sport) seem to have been spending an inordinate amount of time riding "tempo". My opinion is that since this sort of riding is easy enough that you can do it for several hours, but hard enough to severely tax glycogen storage, it represents a potential risk. The athlete can end up in a monotonic cycle of constantly doing this sort of work and eventually, they fry. (Look at some of the references in my green book with respect to monotony etc. Properly discussing the implications of that type of training and the "frying" that occurs would take an entire book.)

3) You *could* do something similar riding too much threshold. However, (and again, this is my opinion / impression) riding a lot of threshold tends to fatigue the athlete enough / make them feel crummy enough in the short term that they don't end up doing enough of it over a long enough period to get into really big trouble. They can still end up overreached for sure in the short term (if highly motivated) but they incidence of really wrecking themselves seems less.

It is important to understand that a lot of the questions with respect to "how much time should be spent in any given zone" are difficult to answer with any certainty. It is highly variable between people and sometimes you don't know what will work best until you hit it by tweaking / trial and error. Some of it just can't (yet) be predicted in advance, and that is where the art of coaching becomes really important.

Phil
--

Another Steve Seiler devotee, I see.


Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com
Quote Reply
Re: Tempo, threshold, or VO2max? [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
I realize that's not how the body works, but I'm trying to get some solid information on the subject, and force the various experts to lean one way or another.

Not trying to be an ass, but the real experts, base things on facts and what really goes on. You can't force that, or force them to have another view. Why would they lean one way or the other . . . just because the wind is blowing that way?

Training is hard. To get really good results takes time. I always get the impression that people think there are short-cuts, or silver-bullets, that they can take or use to get to be their absolute best. There isn't. So that's why I say, embrace the training, the life-style, the pursuit and the journey. If you do, the results will come.





Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Quote Reply
Re: Tempo, threshold, or VO2max? [S McGregor] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Is that a bad thing?
Quote Reply
Re: Tempo, threshold, or VO2max? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fleck wrote:
Training is hard. To get really good results takes time. I always get the impression that people think there are short-cuts, or silver-bullets, that they can take or use to get to be their absolute best. There isn't. So that's why I say, embrace the training, the life-style, the pursuit and the journey. If you do, the results will come.

Why is this always the first assumption, I guess it's a bit of an ST thing?

I have no desire to take short cuts or to look for the easy way out. I'm fully prepared to embrace the pain and do what ever it takes to get my FTP up. What I am trying to avoid is spending the next 16 weeks busting my ass doing VO2 work only to find out that I can't ride longer than 30min. Or to spend a lot of time riding at threshold only to end up overtrained or failing on the hills.

So in addition to biking hard, I am also trying to get a solid base of information, from the very experts on the subject, and so far that has been a tremendous success. This thread is a treasure trove of information, because questions got asked and preconceived notions got challenged.
Quote Reply
Re: Tempo, threshold, or VO2max? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Training is hard.



It isn't hard. It's fun. To get better you have to embrace that training is fun and then you have to accept where you are to move forward.
Quote Reply
Re: Tempo, threshold, or VO2max? [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
The two set pieces on the bike that typically yield good results over the short term are - the 20 min TT and T-Max type of efforts( maximal, roughly 3 min efforts to total exhaustion with full recovery) repeat until you can't duplicate the 3 min on effort. Most can only manage 4 - 5 of these if you are really going all out.

Intersperse these sessions with other aerobic riding and if you balance it all well and don't over-cook yourself, you should see some good performance gains over the time period in question.


Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
Quote Reply
Re: Tempo, threshold, or VO2max? [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Fleck wrote:
I always get the impression that people think there are short-cuts, or silver-bullets, that they can take or use to get to be their absolute best. There isn't. So that's why I say, embrace the training, the life-style, the pursuit and the journey. If you do, the results will come.


that right there should be a sticky on this forum!

The entire event (IM) is like "death by 1000 cuts" and the best race is minimizing all those cuts and losing less blood than the other guy. - Dev
Quote Reply
Re: Tempo, threshold, or VO2max? [Aqua Man] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
This is turning out to be one of the best bike threads on ST. Thanks for starting it. In case you haven't seen it, thought you may be interested in this: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...ff%20season;#4160618
Quote Reply
Re: Tempo, threshold, or VO2max? [dave_voyageur] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
dave_voyageur wrote:
Is that a bad thing?

Who's to say. Just an observation.


Steve

http://www.PeaksCoachingGroup.com
Quote Reply
Re: Tempo, threshold, or VO2max? [Devlin] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
Yah, I recommend doing the intermediate base then choose between advanced build it intermediate build.

We'll have some disciple specific plans come spring, do you might be able to cap that off with a TT plan.

Just stay consistent and follow the workouts. If you do that you'll get stronger. Consistency is key!

CEO at TrainerRoad
Co-host of the Ask a Cycling Coach Podcast
Quote Reply
Re: Tempo, threshold, or VO2max? [S McGregor] [ In reply to ]
Quote | Reply
S McGregor wrote:

Another Steve Seiler devotee, I see.

Are you a Steve Seiler devotee?



http://www.frostyjunction.com/
https://twitter.com/FrostyJunction
Quote Reply

Prev Next