I agree. My swim sucks and I don't have the guts to work hard to make it better.

The first step is admitting it.

Ditto on the sucky swimming part, but I'm throwing a lot of my energies as of late towards getting less bad. Hopefully it pays off.

I never did disrespect the stud swimmers, other than to be jealous that they grew up on the sport I struggle the most with.

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The question of who is right and who is wrong has seemed to me always too small to be worth a moment's thought, while the question of what is right and what is wrong has seemed all-important.

-Albert J. Nock

It's all relative.

I came from a swimming background (25000-30000 yards a week) and I am envious of people who ran cross country in high school or college. I'm in awe when someone runs a 18:00 minute 5K.

By the way, swimming 25K-30K really isn't that bad when done in a team setting and multiple coaches yelling at you.
I swear 25K-30K/week in that kind of setting is just about as difficult as 5-7K/week in my current swim alone and train for a triathlon setting.

I swam for a middle of the pack D3 college, and our Christmas training trips were mostly 15K a day long course meters.

Stating the obvious, but the things I disagree with his otherwise excellent arguments:

1. Technique - takes YEARS to really build good technique and most of which should be under the watch of a good coach, unless you're naturally gifted, which it sounds like he is. Make no mistake - starting swimming in childhood is an enormous advantage given the motor memory. It's no different then a lot of technique-oriented activites, be it sports or music. I was a high-level violinist in my youth (Juilliard, etc.) and started at age 4. By the time I was age 12, anyone who started violin after age 6-7 had no chance against me or my similar peers. This even held true when I went to Juilliard - even if these late bloomers practiced 8-12 hours per day and I practiced 1-2, I had ingrained ability that they simply couldn't get. And it wasn't just me - all my peers at my level started between ages 2-4. You simply cannot make up this gap as even a teenager starter, and definitely not as an adult (not even close.) Running and cycling seem to be less technique oriented so you can bloom late, but swimming is hugely technical, and starting in childhood confers a lifelong advantage.

2. Coaching - Hard to get access to good coaching day in and day out. Yes, masters helps a lot, but not all masters coaches are the equivalent of D1-D3 college swim coaches or even competitive high school swim coaches.

3. Logistics - Adults with a busy job and family responsibilites make swimming lots hard. I'm shocked at how little pool hours are available to me even if I have the whole day off - it's pretty much between 5AM-8AM, 12-1PM, or 7PM-9PM. Unfortunately, all of those times overlap with family and work time. (I already use the morning time to bike/run and help get the kids ready for school, so it's not like I'm slacking - I put in 18 hrs of training last week!) It's a lot easier to do this as a youth swimmer where you don't have quite as prolonged commitments and where your family backs you up.

4. Fatigue - I was planning to do some serious swimming this week, given that I'm off work nearly every day this entire week, but in the context of half ironman training, I'm finding it impossible to swim more than 10k. I'm simply too tired after doing all that biking and running. For example, I rode for 4 hours today, and then my pool workout simply wasn't up to par. And when I'm putting up 18 hrs per week of training, I don't think HTFU is a real problem - I'm really going out and putting it all out there, but as a typical AGer, I simply don't have the capacity to add in that sort of volume even if the desire is there.

Without a doubt, adult onset swimming is much harder to master. I think this has been "debated" here on ST before, but I firmly believe that for 90% of triathletes, fitness trumps technique. Regardless, gotta have technique too at a certain point.


The post was meant mainly for local/regional triathletes I know (and know of). Lots of excuses are made. There's amazing access to masters coaching here, primarily (in Charlotte anyway), through SwimMAC Carolina Masters (the same program that produced a bunch of olympians and olympic trial participants this year). So that doesn't hold water locally anyway.


Yes, responsibilities detract from what seems to be (for most triathletes) a time intensive sport that doesn't garner lots of time in racing. BUT, what mainly bugs me (and I say this with some lightheartedness, it doesn't really bug me bug me) is when triathletes talk about how they're pulling out all the stops and they're swimming as much as they can and they're working as hard as they can and it's simply not true.


But you know what it takes, and that separates you from most. I don't think most triathletes realize (or care to find out) how much work it takes to get to be the swimmer that they *think* they can be. It's easier to say "oh the course was long," or "I sighted poorly" or ... you name it.

All in all, I was just trying to call out a lot of local whiners. I'm only being half-serious.

And that's redonkulous.

I still maintain that adult onset running is easier to master than swimming. I've known lots of tri athletes that have gotten to 18 minutes for 5 km as an adult. I've known almost none that have gotton to front of the pack as a swimmer. Its not absolute, but much harder to find an example.

The frustrating thing is when a guy jumps in the pool and swims slower than i do and I find out he used to swim seriously 10 years ago. It normally take about a week before they are flying.

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Styrrell

all i really got out of that was "i've worked really hard (harder than you) and gotten a lot better (better than you)...thanks for now noticing"

and good on ya for it. it definitely takes a lot of work to get better in the water, whether you're a non-swimmer or were born swimming. your post just seems to be more self serving rather than paying respect to true swimmers.

AND i respectfully disagree that collegiate runners knocking out triple digit weeks are just out there exploring God's green earth and chatting it up with their buddies. the physical toll that takes on the body is outrageous and especially when it's mostly done on singles and at paces that resemble your race pace

Congratulations on missing the forest for the trees

Runners time demands are not nearly the same as swimmers. I knee a lot of D1 XC athletes in college and yes, they ran hard. They worked very hard. But there's a difference bw working hard outdoors and working hard staring at a thin black line. I am not discounting the work ethic of runners.

My blog was not self serving. I am just a good example of hard work. You obviously took what you wanted from it; I wont hold that against you.

This sounds like an excuse to me IF you really did intend on a swim intensive week. You were able to get your 4 hour ride in. I make the same excuses about running and biking but always manage to get my swim in even when the time, in my case, would be better spent biking/running. If it were me, I would have done a 2.5-2.75 hour ride (about the time it takes me to do a flat half IM bike ride in a race) and swam 1.25-1.5 hours rather than have ridden 4 hours. If I felt my bike workout would adversely affect my swim, I would have done the swim before doing the bike training. My longest rides for half IM training for Nationals last year were a grand total of 3 rides over 50 miles with the longest being 56, yet somehow I managed to find time to swim 20K+ each week. I think I did a grand total of 1 training run over 10 miles (or MAYBE 2). If it mattered more to me, I would have cut out some of the swimming to increase the run/bike training but I am doing this for fun and swimming is what I enjoy. Of course on race day I wished I had put in the proper bike/run training time but was satisfied with my race, especially considering the training I had done. (The year before I was totally screwed when they canceled the swim at that race!)

Many of us are good at making excuses to skip workouts in the least preferred discipline(s) but somehow manage to do the workouts in our favorite. You, personally, may benefit from bike/run more than the swim training if you swam in college but if you had planned a swim intensive week you COULD have found the time to get the swimming in...at the expense of training in biking/running perhaps. If it is actually important there is a way to find time to do it.

-leh

I ran XC and track in university and totally agree that swimming and cycling are way more time intensive than running. However, most run training bears little resemblence to easy runs while exploring trails. Running mile repeats over the same loop week after week is just marginally less boring, and IMHO more intense, than swimming laps. In general though, both swimming and running are way less fun than practicing sports like basketball, soccer, etc. The fact that we enjoy SBR is our own unfortunate cross to bear.

Well, I personally know at least 8 guys/girls who took up swimming as adults and became very respectable Masters swimmers and/or triathletes. By "very respectable", I mean capable of going 2:10 or better for a 200 SCY free and/or 6:00 or under for 500 SCY free. These times are way slower than your D1 swimmers who go sub-1:40 and sub-4:30 but for triathlons and for local/regional Masters meets, these times would be considered not bad/decent/semi-respectable. Also, 3 of the 8 went sub-2:00 200s and around 5:20-5:30 for their 500s.

I agree with James completely. What I have noticed in particular is that very, very few aspiring tri folks take advantage of the roughly 5 non-tri months (mid-Nov to mid-March) to work hard on their swim. Cut way back on your run and bike and go to the pool 5 days/wk, and hammer out 4000 to 5000 yd workouts. You might actually get to the point where you really love swimming hard and fast, as it is a different feeling from running or biking hard.

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"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."

 you're friend posted the link and said to discuss so i am. not trying to knock you, that's what i see blogs being for. blogs aren't my style so i don't have one. different strokes for different folks (no swimming pun intended).

there were many, many, many days in the dead of winter when i would have killed to be able to train indoors and not have to go outside when it was dark, cold, & wet. now, that doesn't mean i would've wanted to stare at a black line for hours upon hours. it's just that the grass sometimes seems greener on the other side.

and if 'time spent practicing' is your argument, have you ever seen how many hours football practice lasts!?!?!? they don't even have time for class!!! jk

I will second that, my Christmas training was normally 15-18,000m a day, our classic New Year's Day set was 100x100s followed by an hour of drylands. Now I swim about 25-30,000 m a week and am not the swimmer I was. However, I am still able to come out top of the pack while exerting much less energy than 'non-swimmers'. I do agree that it is difficult to become a swimmer later in life but I also think that finding a quality club/masters program and jumping right in will do wonders for many. Also, it is hard to justify saying swimmers have it easy when in every race is much more cycle/run weighted.

" Everyone else had the same opportunity to get in the pool at a young age. Everyone could have started down that path a long time ago, but few chose to do so."

that is the most ridiculous statement I've ever heard. who makes life choices at age 6? or even 13? My home town's closest pool was 18 miles away, 4 lanes, and you have to pay $9 a pop to swim.
I stopped reading after this, congrats on your humble brag blog post.

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I don't suffer from insanity; I enjoy every minute of it--

true, and i don't think anyone here is disagreeing with james on the fact that if you want to swim faster, you have to really train to swim faster.

i know of several former collegiate swimmers who train very little and still come out near the front. in one of their cases, he knows he could be first out of the water in most of his races (say, 1:00 faster in a half IM) but he feels his time is better spent training more on the bike/run where he can pick up 5-10 minutes with the same overall training time spent.

it's simply a matter of what's each persons return on investment

Like i said its not absolute, but I still maintain you'll find more runners taking up running as an adult who do well than swimmers. The two best examples from Running Jack Foster and Priscilla Welch. I believe both started running in their 30s and made Olympic marathon teams. Almost certian its damn near impossible to find a Olympic swimmer that started much older than age 16.

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Styrrell

I also thought that was rather amusing. I'm sure I could have been a much faster athlete if at six years old I had realized that I would be swimming, cycling, and running competitively in my 20s. Sadly, I did not.

Trust me - I'm NOT skipping swim workouts just because I'm better at the B/R.

The training schedule I am calls for this much swimming. I'm probably doing slightly more than it recommends, actually.

You of all know that HIM training calls for a lot of biking and running, and a lot less swimming.

Yes, I'll be doing swim blocks in the future, but even then, the logistics of the pool and coaching are way, way harder than the bike/run, which is the point I'm trying to make as having it hard as an adult AGer that's learned to swim as an adult. With the day job, daddy duties, and limited pool hours, there's just no way I can log the kind of hours a young swimmer without those responsibilities can. And I don't think you can realize criticize my motivation when I'm willing to put up 18 hours per week of training, swim or no swim.

And just because YOU have the base to do lighter biking than me and ride pretty fast, doesn't mean I can get away with that kind of training. I know what I need to raise my bike level to where it should be, and it involves regular rides of 3-4.5 hours, not 2-2.5 hours (at my speed). Saying you can do it to justify your ability to swim doesn't mean you can generalize your case to everyone.




I actually tried to do a dedicated swim block for the past 3-4 months before my HIM build - the logistics alone were impossible for me with a toddler and full time job. AM masters was out - not because I can't get up in time, but because I have to be around to help with the baby at 6-7AM when my wife prepares for work. The friggin pool doesn't even open until 5:30AM, so it doesn't matter how early I'm up. PM masters - also out, from toddler care and/or work. Weekends are the only time I can swim long blocks, and even then, it's tough and requires a sacrifice of bike/run.

In contrast, I can put up big HIM training hours on bike/run simply by cramming in 90min-2 hr weekday AM sessions from 4-6AM. Logistically, bike/run is SOOOO much easier for this dad of a toddler + full time job, than swimming is. If swimming for me were possible at 4AM, I'd be at that pool from 4-5:30AM even now during my HIM build, but it's simply not reality. Logistics for swimming can be really tough.

I also think you're probably gifted for your swim ability, hard earned or not.

I've been working at my swimming for 2.5 years now after starting seriously about 3 years ago. I bust my butt on sets when I'm in the pool, even if I'm only there for 40 minutes. 100s, 200s, or 4-500s, leaving on the clock with <10sec rest for the 100s-200s and <15s rest for the 4-500s, and I'm usually dying by the last set - 20 x 100 or 10 x 200 is what I do. I've improved a LOT (like 2:30/100yds to 1:35/100yds pace for 1500-2000 SCY in the pool), but even now I'm barely faster than 29:00 for an OWS Oly. In contrast, you, before you even started working hard in the pool, had a baseline at where I am after 3 years of fairly serious training.

On the whole, though I def agree with you. Triathletes, including myself do NOT swim enough, and we whine too much about how good it must be to have swimming background, and we don't do enough work fixing the situation. I'm just as guilty as the rest in this, but I also know from trying in the past year that my limited swim is much, much less a function of me being lazy or avoiding hard work, but from logistical and scheduling limitations of pool access in the context of my job/family as I described above, and I could see a lot of triathletes having a similar problem. If I had no kids, I'd be banging out 20k+ per week for sure in a swim-focused block.

I guess I didn't make it clear that I personally didn't feel that the extra swimming would be worth the extra time investment for you. (Off season - probably; in-season, probably not.) YOU said you had planned on having a heavier swim week. I didn't say you SHOULD have had one. I merely pointed out that if it had been that important, you could have made it happen. It obviously wasn't THAT important to you. IMO you probably are better off biking and running during long distance training as the swim is rather insignificant in those races but it still seemed like an excuse saying you were too fatigued to swim more. Bike and run less or swim before the bike and run workouts if you really want to up the swim volume. Best bang for the buck for the type of races you are doing? Probably not. You can allocate that 18 hours any way you feel best benefits you but what rubbed me the wrong way was saying you had planned on doing more swimming but were too fatigued. You could have done all the planned swimming and cut back on the other stuff if you had *really* wanted.

When people claim they want to do something, then do not follow through (whether for valid reasons or BS ones), I consider that an excuse. NO harm or insult intended, just the way I feel about it. Sorry if you felt offended, not my intention.

BTW, I make excuses all the time and fully admit it. I PLANNED on going to bed by 11:30 tonight so I could get over 6.5 hours sleep before tomorrow morning's swim workout but couldn't because I was too busy reading posts on slowtwitch and lost track of time...oh wait, that is my fault, I could have turned off the computer 30 mins ago. OOPS. If I turn it off now might have a shot at 6 hrs...good night.

-leh

I guess I should have clarified - I was intending to make it a 'heavier' swim week only in the context of overall HIM training. I was hoping to add extra hours of swimming on top of my current schedule, but I had no intention of sacrificing planned biking or running just for extra swim workouts. As you said, that would just be a bad way to train for a race that's predominantly cycling and running.

I'll also admit that my idea, while sounded good in principle, utterly failed due to the fatigue factor. It's just too hard to for me due a quality swim workout after a 4 hour bike ride with 4500+ feet of climbing at my current fitness. This doesn't mean I'm a bad planner - I'm hitting all the workouts on the prescribed HIM schedule, it's just those "bonus" workouts that I thought I could hit that I can't. 18hrs of training is a lot more tiring that I thought. I don't need any excuses for not hitting those workouts - that's just the reality of fatigue at my level and I actually feel like I've HTFU'd plenty by even showing up at the pool to bang out 1800 even when I was feeling like total crap.

I didn't mean that I was going to be doing a swim-centered block where I do minimal biking or running. (I do those during the winter, and even then, as said above, the logistics make it essentially impossible for me to get much over 12k/week even if I were to dedicate every possible available block of time to swimming, due to childcare and pool hours.) I know that sounds like a copout, but it really isn't - that toddler simply sucks away all that time and we already overwork our nanny and the wife can't cover those hours since her work hours are even longer than mine.