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Re: I picked a Ph.D. program for next year [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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tri_yoda wrote:
NCtri wrote:
tri_yoda wrote:
LorenzoP wrote:
my uncle (now retired) was big in math ed, wrote lots of books on the topic and traveled the world (one would not think math ed peeps would trot the globe)

anyways, here in WI, it looks like public teachers are going to lose any pay raises for acquiring adv. degrees or PD (and perhaps lose salary raises already acquired from adv degrees) - and if Gov. Walker survives recall, this will likely be passed in other states. You might consider avoiding any efforts involving adv degrees in Education and stick with developing undergraduate programs - or like my uncle, wrote math books for High Schoolers
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Why would you need advanced degrees to teach in K-12?
I am not saying there is anything wrong with getting advanced degrees if you want, but I don't see why you should get an automatic pay raise for doing so (especially when the taxpayers end up footing the bill).

I work as an engineer. I happen to hold a PE. My employer does not pay me anything extra for having this credential. Likewise, I have a Masters degree. I received no change in compensation when I got this.


Still sounds like you got screwed. Or took the wrong job.

You really got screwed, didn't you?


Not at all. Why would having a piece of paper mean you are somehow instantly more valuable to your employer? An additional degree may or may not be valuable. Although I am employed as an engineer, my employer does not require the services of a professional engineer, so it is a worthless credential in their eyes.

I was just commenting on the fact that someone else thought teachers were getting screwed because they were not going to instantly get raises for accumulating advanced degrees. So I do get screwed in the sense that I pay high taxes so that teachers can get raises for acquiring advanced degrees, whether the degrees are of any value or not.


****************

Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
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Re: I picked a Ph.D. program for next year [NCtri] [ In reply to ]
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Am I missing something? Do most private sector employers automatically give people raises if they earn an advanced degree or credential?
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Re: I picked a Ph.D. program for next year [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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tri_yoda wrote:
Am I missing something? Do most private sector employers automatically give people raises if they earn an advanced degree or credential?

Apparently, why on earth would you pursue certs or advanced degrees if they didn't result in promotions/raises? Did you just pick very poorly?


****************

Politics is the art of looking for trouble, finding it everywhere, diagnosing it incorrectly and applying the wrong remedies.
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Re: I picked a Ph.D. program for next year [NCtri] [ In reply to ]
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NCtri wrote:
tri_yoda wrote:
Am I missing something? Do most private sector employers automatically give people raises if they earn an advanced degree or credential?


Apparently, why on earth would you pursue certs or advanced degrees if they didn't result in promotions/raises? Did you just pick very poorly?


All I said is that they did not result in raises from my current employer. They are most likely of value to other employers; I don't believe most people would think obtaining a Master's Degree in Mechanical engineering or a Professional Engineer certifications are poor choices objectively. My employer paid all the costs associated with the Master's degree, so even though they did not increase my compensation, I think getting $25,000 in free tuition and books was a pretty good deal. Getting a PE, even in NY where there are high fees, is not going to cost you more than $1000 out of pocket. Yes, it will cost you some time, but time spent increasing marketable skills is usually time well spent. So no, I do not think I picked poorly.

Just because you are not automatically/immediately going to get a raise or promotion from your current employer for doing something doesn't mean that it will not result in getting a raise or promotion at some point in the future. My employer might be screwing me in other ways, but not giving me an automatic raise for getting an advanced degree or certification is not one of them in my eyes.
Last edited by: tri_yoda: Apr 30, 12 20:01
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Re: I picked a Ph.D. program for next year [VO2Matt] [ In reply to ]
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VO2Matt wrote:
awesome. sounds like you have things well thought out. Have fun in grad school. Its been the best 5 years of my life so far.

X2

(though 7 years in my case ;)

__________________________

Oh yeah!
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Re: I picked a Ph.D. program for next year [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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Maine requires teachers to have masters degrees and will pay for teachers to complete those degrees. I am not sure if one is paid more after completing it; I am now interested. I didn't go this route - I am student teaching, not a full-time teacher and a student on the side.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: I picked a Ph.D. program for next year [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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tri_yoda wrote:
They are most likely of value to other employers; I don't believe most people would think obtaining a Master's Degree in Mechanical engineering or a Professional Engineer certifications are poor choices objectively.

I had an engineering professor who would disagree! For economic reasons, he thought getting a masters in engineering was a waste of time if you weren't pursuing a PhD. At the time, the increase in average pay for the engineering masters wasn't more than just going out and working for 2 years, getting 2 years salary and getting 2 raises. But that's only for full time students, so I'm not sure what he would think about part-time students like your situation.

Anyway, I'm not sure what you are complaining about on this case. You've admitted several times that the degrees and certifications have value for the employer. It's just a matter of how (part of) that value is passed on to the employee. Teachers just have a rigid pay scale, that's how it works. In this case, it can be considered a bit of a benefit, though that depends on how much the increased compensation is! They also don't have the ability to get a 10% raise one year for doing a kickass job, like you or I could.
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Re: I picked a Ph.D. program for next year [Quel] [ In reply to ]
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In the real world, degrees and certifications only have value for the employer as the employee translates the knowledge and skills into actual on-the-job performance improvements. Do a better job and take on more responsibility and that is rewarded with better pay.
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Re: I picked a Ph.D. program for next year [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Wow! Big move for you, congrats! You are in my neighborhood now :-)

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce
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Re: I picked a Ph.D. program for next year [Hubblesmith] [ In reply to ]
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You will get paid more going into a job with an advanced degree so you start off earning more than someone hired with the same experience at the same time but no advanced degree.

----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jen

"In order to keep a true perspective on one's importance, everyone should have a dog that worships him and a cat that will ignore him." - Dereke Bruce
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Re: I picked a Ph.D. program for next year [JenSw] [ In reply to ]
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JenSw wrote:
You will get paid more going into a job with an advanced degree so you start off earning more than someone hired with the same experience at the same time but no advanced degree.

That is conventional wisdom, but generally speaking is no longer true. With the recent economic downturn many students chose to eschew the real world and stay in school getting advanced degrees so they wouldn't have the stress of finding a job. Employers now look at the advanced degree with several grains of salt and will favor the undergrad degree with a couple years of experience over the masters degree with no experience.
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Re: I picked a Ph.D. program for next year [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Very cycling friendly, so now I will have NO excuse (except being busy with school, which is the one I use now).

I thought it rained all the time there? If so, there's your excuse.

Anyway, congratulations on your new program. I'm envious; I had some visions of becoming a math professor when I was growing up.

-----
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I--
I took the one less traveled by,
Which is probably why I was registering 59.67mi as I rolled into T2.

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Re: I picked a Ph.D. program for next year [JenSw] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Wow! Big move for you, congrats! You are in my neighborhood now :-)


:-)


I know I will be in your corner of the world - will I be in your literal neighborhood? I know you just moved... PM me :-)

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: I picked a Ph.D. program for next year [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Good choice. I love Oregon. If I could come up with good jobs for both me and my wife at the same time I'd move there in a heartbeat.

Crater Lake may be my favorite place on the planet.

I'm beginning to think that we are much more fucked than I thought.
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Re: I picked a Ph.D. program for next year [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Does this mean you are going to change your handle to beaverchick?

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: I picked a Ph.D. program for next year [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Congrats and welcome to the Pacific Northwest.

Now you'll finally have a chance to do the Tiger Tri in WA. :-)


"100% of the people who confuse correlation and causation end up dying."
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Re: I picked a Ph.D. program for next year [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Congrats!!! Too bad you didn't look a little further North at the largest and best math faculty on the planet. :) H2O Loo
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Re: I picked a Ph.D. program for next year [chainpin] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Does this mean you are going to change your handle to beaverchick?


No!

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: I picked a Ph.D. program for next year [tri_yoda] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Am I missing something? Do most private sector employers automatically give people raises if they earn an advanced degree or credential?

You are comparing aples and oranges.

Engineering is dictated by the free market. If you get a masters degree or P.E. you may or may not get a pay bump by your employer. In engineering pay is based on a combination of A) your value to your employer and B) your value to teh competition. If you get a P.E. and your employer gets no advantage from your P.E., then they may not pay you more provided that you weren't already worth more to them. However, your market value does go up and they might be more likely to lose you to a higher paying company, so they may decide to give you a pay bump. Even if they don't, your degree can still earn you more money.

Teaching, OTOH, is a union driven government job. There are many reasons behind this, but for simplicity sake lets just say that one of them is the fact that an older more experienced teacher isn't really worth that much more than a teacher ~5-7 years into their career. Teachers know that they can't make a profession out of a system that encourages employers to fire you simply for being old and replacing you with younger teachers. So they unionize and come up with a pay structure, one that guarantees incrimental pay increases as you gain more experience. It also guarantees more pay as a result of increased personal eduactional growth.

This doesn't cost *you* anymore money. It costs the teachers that don't persue advanced degrees money as it shifts the income from them to those that do. The cost to you is no different.

Does it make sense? I personally support some degree of merit pay, but beyond that, it seems to encourage teachers to expand their education and knowledge. I don;t necessarily see that as a bad thing, and if teacher *want* to have their money dispersed this way and bargain to do so, then I don;t really see why I should care.

The only real complaint comes from, "It's not fair that my job does this but their job does that." If you think teachers have it so easy, there's nothing stopping you from jumping onto the gravy train and livign the posh life of a teacher!


And believe me, every year around this time I wish I was still teaching! ; ^ )



-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: I picked a Ph.D. program for next year [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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One comment, T.C. It drove me nuts as a teacher and a math ed. student that educational acedamia was run by people who were ideologues who had no clue what the teaching environemt was really like.

Don't be that person.

Good luck.....I was looking forward to seeing you in town, but I'd certaing pick Oregon over Delaware too! ; ^ )

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: I picked a Ph.D. program for next year [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
One comment, T.C. It drove me nuts as a teacher and a math ed. student that educational acedamia was run by people who were ideologues who had no clue what the teaching environemt was really like.

Don't be that person.

Good luck.....I was looking forward to seeing you in town, but I'd certaing pick Oregon over Delaware too! ; ^ )


I've taught a little bit - 4 mo. in a public school (very little) and 6 semesters of university teaching (college algebra; college geometry; calc I).

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: I picked a Ph.D. program for next year [M~] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Congrats!!! Too bad you didn't look a little further North at the largest and best math faculty on the planet. :) H2O Loo


I don't have a passport! Good to know I'm in the right area, though...

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: I picked a Ph.D. program for next year [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Congrats. You will have a great time exploring Oregon--it's got everything from rain forests to coastline to the cascades (better skiing than Maine) to the high desert.

Take a long weekend at some point and go the the Alvord desert in the SE quadrant. It's worth the drive.

___________________________
De que depende?
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Re: I picked a Ph.D. program for next year [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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College teaching doesn't count. ; ^ )

Just something to keep in the back of your head. There have been a lot of serious problems with the way math education has been approached over many many decades. I think you'd be doing yourself a disservice not to become very familiar with them.

The biggest problem I've seen with educational research in general is that it isn't very honest. A true researcher should go out of their way to try and disprove their own claims and see if they will hold up to rigorous scrutiny. To often they try to force the facts to fit an ideology rather than make the facts drive the conclusion.

There's also a problem with indentifying the practicality of a lot of approaches. I'll give you just a few examples:

First I'll show you my approach, and keep in mind that I had very little experience (2 1/2 years of teaching), yet still had the *highest* test scores and passing rate in the school for my algebra classes.

1) I didn't waste time going over homework. They turned it in, and instead I would have them work on problems on the board that were very similar to the homework problems. This saved a lot of class time as most people just tune out when going over homework. It's better to get them *solving* new problems rather than passively listening to me explain old problems.

2) I didn't have kids write out explanations or write them on the board and explain them to the class. The claim was that this would help them learn.....except that it took too much time. Only 5 kids would actually be able to participate at a time, while 25 kids would watch and do nothing. The explanations were poor and no one could understand them (because they are kids explaining it, not teachers).

3) They would work on problems by themselves. If they didn;t understand, they'd have a partner help. If they still couldn't get it, I'd help them. This all heppens while I take attendence and collect homework. Again, EFFICIENCY!

4) I'd quickly go over the problems and explain how they should have done them, but this won't take much time because the problems were basic and the class had their chance to get my help already.

5) New topic - explanation "This is the pythagorean theorem. Here's how it works. Here's why it works." I don't waste time deriving it because they get nothing out of it at 14.

6) We work through an example together while they watch me on the board.

7) They do an example on their own, get help from partner if needed, or me if needed.

8) I go over the answer. I do another example with the class. I have them do another one on their own. I then give them 10-20 problems to work on.

Remember - *highest* grades in the school!


My adminsitration hated this process. What I was supposed to do is have them work in groups of 4, explain to each other how to do the problems, write answer on the board, and explain them to the class. For learning the Pythagorean theorem, for example, they were supposed to do an activity where they measured the sides of a bunch of triangles, put them into some sort of grid, and see if they can "discover" the relationship between the different sides. In theory this is supposed to be a better method than having me just tell them and then have them work on problems. The problem is, by employing these methods, I burn about 20-30 minutes of class time and end up having to just tell them anyway.

This kind of method works much better in a smaller setting, or possibly with a more advanced group of students, but it is horribly inefficient with teaching a larger group of average to below average students. They require structure, and efficient activities that they can work through.

Much of modern math ed. programs focus on trying to make math class not seem like math class. The bottom line is, they actually have to work through the problems. there just isnt any way around that! As an old physics grad told me, "you learn physics (or math) with your arm, not your eyes."

My 2 cents.....I can rant on. ; ^ )

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: I picked a Ph.D. program for next year [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Outstanding. That is the kind of teaching I would want my kids to receive.
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