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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [devashish_paul] [ In reply to ]
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devashish_paul wrote:
I think there are a bunch of sub topics in hear. I think one of them is the time allocation for swimming vs other sports and the payback. Rich Strauss probably nailed that topic the best. Ultratriguy and I are discussing the awesomeness of Ricky Ponting and Sachin too. I was expecting a few Aussies to jump into that one overnite.

India better do something in the next few tests, or their perennial reputation as flat track bullies (with inflated averages) will continue...
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [NAB777] [ In reply to ]
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india should have won the test in a canter. They had Tendulkar and Dravid set on the best batting days of the match and they lost their wickets due to lapse in concentration. The indian bowlers did their bit
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [kennyDalglish] [ In reply to ]
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Well, at least cricket is less confusing than proper swim training protocol...




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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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hmm based on this thread and my own experiences I understand that I have a really good swim coach who got me to the low 1 hour for an Im swim of the back of 2 * 3000 metres per week. Down from 1:1x. She does all the right things, I just need to train more than 2 times per week and I am now doing this.

Also this coach is an ex very elite pool swimmer (who also goes alright in ows) and pretty much espouses what has been going on in the thread excep, we swim to get better at swimming with some limited drill work
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Everything I know about cricket, I learned from watching 'Lagaan' so my understanding of the game is that they have to stop play every so often for a song & dance sequence.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [kennyDalglish] [ In reply to ]
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kennyDalglish wrote:
india should have won the test in a canter. They had Tendulkar and Dravid set on the best batting days of the match and they lost their wickets due to lapse in concentration. The indian bowlers did their bit

x2

Did we succeed in hijacking this thread...onto the Sydney Cricket Ground for the Jan 3rd test (hoping to see that 100th century). In the mean time, I better figure out when to get into the pool!
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Kenney] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
Is Paulo now the Authority?

I have no confirmation but his style of reply seems all to familiar. The timing of Paulo no longer posting and The Authority account getting created also seemed a bit odd. If The Authority is not Paulo, then it must be his apprentice.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [songmak] [ In reply to ]
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Oh look, someone is wrong on the Internet...
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [The Authority] [ In reply to ]
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Wrong about you being Paulo or you being Paulo's apprentice?
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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cricket...not to be confused with whack bat...

http://www.videodetective.com/...fox-whack-bat/533796
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [kennyDalglish] [ In reply to ]
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It's an excellent thought provoking thread which asks more questions than it answers and has therefore served it's purpose.

For me, swim fitness first (the ability to complete a decent swim workout.) From there, good technique is the precursor to better swim fitness. As Confucius say 'Don't fight the water' instead move with the water.

Going from 2.4 miles horizontal in an Ironman swim to 112 miles in the aero position in less than 5 minutes is going to hi-jack your shit unless you practice it in training.


**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Mojozenmaster] [ In reply to ]
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I have never found the swim to bike transition tough or needing practice. Just make sure I do races this is practice enough
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [kennyDalglish] [ In reply to ]
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You might be a unique specimen. Remember, I am talking about long course racing, not sprints or olympic.


**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Mojozenmaster] [ In reply to ]
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Hi guys,
I was a bit bored this sat afternoon 31st Dec, so slowtwitch I headed for 10 min, and now 40 min later I am writing something.
Love the discussion and I must say in my defence i didn't read everything in this section so apologies if i waste your time:

I've had the pleasure to help some good number of athletes improve their swims very significantly, incl barb riveros, nordo, kate roberts, lauren campbell and others making WCS first packs for the first time.
My latest projects are Anne Haug (GER trying to make London) and Bart Aernouts (2010 world du champ who races 70.3 now) and like the others they are investing a LOT of effort, mental energy and wet and dry time to the challenge. Mileage about 30kpw, 7-8 sessions/weekly, 2 massage sessions/wk, core and specific muscle work also and after months we make really strong gains, but while we normally need two such off seasons to make the first pack, we normally get there. Sutto and I are miles away in methodology, but I would suggest that I now am getting close to his level of impact, and I'll give some insight into our approach and common errors:
We make great gains with multiple swims a day (every second day), broken into a skill based session and then fitness based session within the daily sequence only long enough to keep skills (under fitness load) at an acceptible level. We spend 'dry' time to improve ROM (with our team rehab guy) and specific strength; plus in every single case i have had to undo bad skills or very poor previous coaching, even from olympic medalist level swim coaches (eg my latest projects):
What i normally get is someone who:
1. pulls the water and has no idea about leavering the body past the forearm - guys, there is no such thing as pulling with your hand vis rowing like, rather think kayaking where the core is working lots.
2. kicks a 6 beat which is out of timing with their hips and they also kick from the knee creating more drag at the knee and via the bubbles produced at the foot than it is worth -guys we teach correct kick action (often 2 beat) that help the action of hips coordinate with the upper body and loosen the bits that create drag. also we drop the feet back in the water rather than above it and have people kick from the hip
3. range of motion is 30% or more below par and this causes overreaching the centreline, poor alignment but the bottomline is both propulsion and drag is compromised - athletes act bewildered when we finally get enough range to let them function properly
4. they know little of how to sort out body position - why drag an anchor when you don't need to?
5. they spend way too much time gliding and worrying about s shape pulls and what 'feel' they have in their hands - forget it guys there are so many bubbles when swimming in a pack the front end has no 'feel' even if you could
6. they are all weak - mid to back end of the stroke is the place to get the gains, so become strong
6. lastly they freak out in pack in the OW and cannot swim straight to save their life - we teach them to swim in the open water and this week we did two sessions in the open water over an hour each with specific longer and short duration efforts in packs with feedback from a coach sitting in a kayak so that tells you have much we rank this activity

But you will never hear me say 'strokes per length', we don't do any total Immersion stuff, do not rush no matter what, and I haven't used a stop watch in the first 2 months of this 2012 prep yet. There is a time and a place for everything.
For age groupers I have some thoughts - invest in ROM, build specific swim based strength, don't get fancy (look up cricket bowling and use that as a stroke recovery action), and mix up the workouts with absolutely no slow FS swimming in the warm down (get rid of the fluff), and forget min strokes per length.
Hope this has helped,
Daz
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [coachdaz] [ In reply to ]
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Damn, you're SO much better than Paulo!!!
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [songmak] [ In reply to ]
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Will see........I do not think so. Reading someone's posts for ten years, well it just does not seem like him.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Rappstar wrote:
Rich Strauss wrote:

My bottomline: we've all seen "bad swimming." Just like pjorn, we know it when we see it. Advising that person to just HTFU and swim lots is exactly the same as my 10k ball example above.

--

Actually, it's not at all the same. The exact same analogy was given much earlier in this thread (I forgive you for not reading it though). Your golf ball suggestion is simply an advocation for practicing shitty technique.

The point of Paulo's (and Brett's) advice is NOT just to HTFU and swim lots. It is to HTFU and swim *MORE* while also *USING TOOLS THAT FORCIBLY CORRECT YOUR TECHNIQUE.* There isn't really a direct analogy to golf or piano, because there aren't (that I know) any tools that are as effective for golf as paddles/PB/band are for swimming, largely because you don't hit several thousand drives during a golf game (even if you are really bad...). The fitness requirements of repeatedly swinging a golf club are just not that large. Likewise piano.

Furthermore, in addition to swimming with tools that forcibly correct your technique, the advice is not to swim X amount. Paulo is a good coach, and like all good coaches, he advocates an APPROPRIATE amount of volume. In other words, it's not about hitting 10,000 golf balls. It's simply about hitting MORE golf balls. Fitness is a massively important element of swimming. Swimming more will improve your fitness. Ergo, one of the surest ways to improve as a swimmer is simply to swim more. This follows from my previous tweet that MANY people are able to swim for 200m (I say 200 because it's long enough that you can't just "fake it" and sprint the whole way, unlike, say, a 50) at a pace that they'd be VERY happy with for 2000m. So it's not like their stroke is bad. It just BECOMES bad when they get tired. Fitness is the limiter.

So, to reiterate:
- it's not about swimming 10k/20k/etc. It's simply about an emphasis on hard work over "technique work." Some people don't need to spend any more time in the pool; they just need to use the time they already spend in the pool more productively by emphasizing fitness-focused sets. Swim harder, farther, faster, whatever. Focus on getter fitter, not "prettier."

- furthermore, it's also not just about swimming hard. There is also the use of the tools to make that hard swimming even more productive. Band/paddles/pull-buoy/etc. all are what Paulo and Joel (and maybe others) call "brute force" tools. If you want to actually make it across the pool with banded ankles, you need to hold the water. Likewise, paddles are great for putting your hand in a proper position and helping you hold the water. Pull buoys help correct and establish body position. You can waste time drilling. OR you can simultaneously work on your fitness AND your technique. This is more of what Sutton was saying than what Paulo was alluding to in his tweet, but it's part of the same overall message.

The contents of Paulo's tweet is not that hard to grasp. And it's nothing like that analogies you have presented.

Based on what you wrote, you clearly recognize the value of hard swimming. I'd wager that you wouldn't see any drop off - and you'd actually see improvement - if you simply replaced your "technique dedicated" periods with longer periods of hard swimming. Of course, the training needs to be appropriate to the skill level of the individual. Shorter sets - both in overall duration and in terms of intervals (50s and 100s instead of 200s and 400s and 800s), of course, but 8 weeks of "all drill work" for a beginner is less helpful than 8 weeks of hard (but appropriate) swimming. That's all Paulo is saying.

Jr, your pro-tools thing is not correct. It's the same as telling people to get newtons to correct their running form.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Chuck Finley] [ In reply to ]
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Chuck Finley wrote:
Jr, your pro-tools thing is not correct. It's the same as telling people to get newtons to correct their running form.

No, no it's not. I could explain it to you, but since you came up with that terrible analogy, I'm afraid you wouldn't understand the explanation.
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [The Authority] [ In reply to ]
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So true!

http://www.teamtbb.com

brett wrote another great article 'looking for clues: hold the line'
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Chuck Finley] [ In reply to ]
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Actually, that is also not true. There is a reason that Newton actually conducts running clinics. I had a long talk with Danny Abshire when I wrote a piece on running shoe technology for LAVA. Danny will tell you that Newtons do NOT alter your running mechanics. The basic premise behind Newtons is that they are designed with the assumption of a mid foot strike. Newtons are built around an assumption of a certain running style. Certainly a low-delta shoe is going to help you land on your mid foot, but you can VERY easily heel strike in Newtons. Newtons may "encourage" good running form, but they certainly don't mandate it, and they definitely do not provide any form of forcible correction. This is one of the most common misunderstandings about Newtons, though I'd also say that Newton does very little to actively change this perception, because the idea that you can buy a shoe that will make you a better runner is certainly helping their sales. But if you talk with Danny A., he will certainly not tell you that Newtons will force you to run a certain way. His premise is really more that they "allow" you to run the way that you were meant to run. Now, the validity of that is certainly open for debate, both whether or not mid foot running actually is superior and whether or not humans were in fact even "meant" to run mid foot , but no matter. The fact remains, Newtons do not force you to run in a specific way.

Paddles, and/or a pull buoy, and/or a band DO actively force changes in technique. Paddles have the most dramatic impact on actual mechanics, while a pull buoy will have the most dramatic impact on body position. The band is more like the equivalent of running hills; it's just harder swimming and the better you swim the easier it is. But pull buoy and paddles fundamentally change things about how you move through the water. The pull buoy isn't like Newtons; it's (sort of) like a Zero-G treadmill. It's easier to run fast when you effectively weigh 50% of what you really do. Likewise it's easier to swim correctly when you don't have to actively think about keeping your hips up, something that can be especially challenging on legs that are tired from a lot of running/biking. I can't actually think of a running equivalent for paddles, perhaps because the ability of the human body to propel itself correctly with a running stride is pretty basic. It's a much simpler act to do correctly than pulling the water is. Yes, you can still swim like crap with paddles, but paddles do a remarkable job of putting your hand in the proper position to catch and in helping you hold the water throughout the entire length of the stroke.

Your analogy is just wrong. I think you are probably heavily biased by a few things, not the least of which is that you are - or were - a very good swimmer. There likely isn't the same dramatic impact for someone like you when you put on paddles as there is for someone like me or a typical AG triathlete. So, unfortunately, your perspective is actually skewed by your expertise in the sport of swimming in general. It's not about what worked for you as a swimmer at growing up or at an advanced level. And furthermore, open water swimming is a different beast than pool swimming. As Darren wrote above, concepts like DPS are basically useless in triathlon. Darren's post is worth reading several times, and at the very least, I suspect a former swimmer might find more solace in Darren's approach than in the paddles-and-band-and-buoy approach of Sutton. But keep in mind that he also shoots down some of the things you were very insistent on in the thread of DPS/SR. But setting that aside, the fundamentals of this thread are - or at least were meant to be - about the importance of fitness, not about "toys." But there is of course a lot of crossover between the two trains of thought. Anyway...


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | Facebook - Rappstar Racing | @rappstar

Ask me about: DiamondBack Bikes | Zipp | 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2017 | Quarq | SRAM | MatchRider | Kiwami | ROKA
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [thejoey] [ In reply to ]
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thejoey wrote:
So true!

http://www.teamtbb.com

brett wrote another great article 'looking for clues: hold the line'

There was thread on that very post of Brett's here: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/..._reply;so=ASC;mh=25;

Many of the same people made the same incorrect conclusions in that thread that they are making here. Ironically given the particular post I believe you were replying to, Paulo and Brett are essentially advocating the exact same thing, just using slightly different phrasing and slightly different approaches, though there is a lot of common ground - way more in common than there is different between what they are advocating. To analogize, same forest, just slightly different trees...


"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | Facebook - Rappstar Racing | @rappstar

Ask me about: DiamondBack Bikes | Zipp | 1st Endurance | Normatec - $100 off RAPP2017 | Quarq | SRAM | MatchRider | Kiwami | ROKA
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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It would be great to have Gary Hall, Sr. opinion, he knows one or two things on swimming ...
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Fix] [ In reply to ]
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Fix wrote:
It would be great to have Gary Hall, Sr. opinion, he knows one or two things on swimming ...

Fixed that for you!
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [coachdaz] [ In reply to ]
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coachdaz wrote:
Hi guys,
I was a bit bored this sat afternoon 31st Dec, so slowtwitch I headed for 10 min, and now 40 min later I am writing something.
Love the discussion and I must say in my defence i didn't read everything in this section so apologies if i waste your time:

I've had the pleasure to help some good number of athletes improve their swims very significantly, incl barb riveros, nordo, kate roberts, lauren campbell and others making WCS first packs for the first time.
My latest projects are Anne Haug (GER trying to make London) and Bart Aernouts (2010 world du champ who races 70.3 now) and like the others they are investing a LOT of effort, mental energy and wet and dry time to the challenge. Mileage about 30kpw, 7-8 sessions/weekly, 2 massage sessions/wk, core and specific muscle work also and after months we make really strong gains, but while we normally need two such off seasons to make the first pack, we normally get there. Sutto and I are miles away in methodology, but I would suggest that I now am getting close to his level of impact, and I'll give some insight into our approach and common errors:
We make great gains with multiple swims a day (every second day), broken into a skill based session and then fitness based session within the daily sequence only long enough to keep skills (under fitness load) at an acceptible level. We spend 'dry' time to improve ROM (with our team rehab guy) and specific strength; plus in every single case i have had to undo bad skills or very poor previous coaching, even from olympic medalist level swim coaches (eg my latest projects):
What i normally get is someone who:
1. pulls the water and has no idea about leavering the body past the forearm - guys, there is no such thing as pulling with your hand vis rowing like, rather think kayaking where the core is working lots.
2. kicks a 6 beat which is out of timing with their hips and they also kick from the knee creating more drag at the knee and via the bubbles produced at the foot than it is worth -guys we teach correct kick action (often 2 beat) that help the action of hips coordinate with the upper body and loosen the bits that create drag. also we drop the feet back in the water rather than above it and have people kick from the hip
3. range of motion is 30% or more below par and this causes overreaching the centreline, poor alignment but the bottomline is both propulsion and drag is compromised - athletes act bewildered when we finally get enough range to let them function properly
4. they know little of how to sort out body position - why drag an anchor when you don't need to?
5. they spend way too much time gliding and worrying about s shape pulls and what 'feel' they have in their hands - forget it guys there are so many bubbles when swimming in a pack the front end has no 'feel' even if you could
6. they are all weak - mid to back end of the stroke is the place to get the gains, so become strong
6. lastly they freak out in pack in the OW and cannot swim straight to save their life - we teach them to swim in the open water and this week we did two sessions in the open water over an hour each with specific longer and short duration efforts in packs with feedback from a coach sitting in a kayak so that tells you have much we rank this activity

But you will never hear me say 'strokes per length', we don't do any total Immersion stuff, do not rush no matter what, and I haven't used a stop watch in the first 2 months of this 2012 prep yet. There is a time and a place for everything.
For age groupers I have some thoughts - invest in ROM, build specific swim based strength, don't get fancy (look up cricket bowling and use that as a stroke recovery action), and mix up the workouts with absolutely no slow FS swimming in the warm down (get rid of the fluff), and forget min strokes per length.
Hope this has helped,
Daz

This is VERY helpful to see how a coach of your caliber is addressing the swim with top elite athletes and the challenges these athletes have with the swim. Thanks for taking time to post.



Powered by Dark Horse Coaching: http://www.darkhorsetriathlon.com
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Re: QFT: Paulo Sousa on Swimming [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Obviously I'm posting way too much in these swimming threads for you to make these connections. So I'm going to make brief comments and hopefully return to obscurity.

Toys: I do not agree that they force you to do anything more than newtons force you to do in running. They can be used to strengthen good technique. They can also be overused resulting in blown shoulders. Mostly, they are similar to doing weights.

Swimming endurance: It's important and in triathlon it's a great way to build your overall endurance in a low impact environment. This was part of Peter Reid's workout plan and he considered himself a weak swimmer.

Swim technique: drills. Every. Workout. Take them seriously. Get a grown up to coach you--the more experience the better.

I know you wrote a lot, but that's all I have to say on this stuff.
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