You could use unsweetened Kool-aid for flavor ~$.20 - cheaper than Heed

One could argue that you don't need to add any type of salts as well

I have been using malto for years, its the idea behind the OS product, I dont know anyone who has tried and used it correctly that has not liked it. If you want to save the time and trouble, you can just order some OS, they have some electrolytes and vitamins pre added.
http://www.oscycling.com

That really does defeat the purpose of buying malto in bulk and saving gobs of money.

What do you think about electrolytes?

Where's a good place to buy it? I think it's something I'd like to try.

I would have to assume that the cid is your customer ID # and you are getting some type of kickback from the company by posting that?
And yes, you are getting ripped off.

WTF? Not even close. Folks are getting paranoid around here. Some buddies have ordered a malto mix through them and were pleased with the results. Are you paying more than buying 50 lb through your local home brew store? Yes, but it is a convenient way to order a mix without having to source all of your own ingredients and still save some money over buying a name-brand mix. Beside, I'm not sure I want to be consuming the malto after it sits around as long as it would for me to consume 50lbs.

WTF? Not even close. Folks are getting paranoid around here. Some buddies have ordered a malto mix through them and were pleased with the results. Are you paying more than buying 50 lb through your local home brew store? Yes, but it is a convenient way to order a mix without having to source all of your own ingredients and still save some money over buying a name-brand mix. Beside, I'm not sure I want to be consuming the malto after it sits around as long as it would for me to consume 50lbs.

Too bad all that extra stuff is useless AND they still charge over 2x for the malto what you can get from the online links I posted above.

It does make a difference.

What you mention (maltodextrin being a complex carb and needing to be mixed with dextrose), is actually one of the major misconceptions about maltodextrin. You're right, it is a longer chain carbohydrate, but it is not a "slow release" (ie. low glycemic index) carbohydrate. It is a polymer of dextrose (d-glucose) units linked together in chains of ~10 and is absorbed into the blood at essentially an identical rate as raw dextrose. The glycemic index of both dextrose and maltodextrin is ~100. If you were to add anything, I suppose you might want to add a LOW glycemic index carbohydrate to give you that "extended" release you mention.

However, the idea that high glycemic index sugars are bad because they give a quick rapid insulin peak is true primarily for your normal diet, but might not be as important during exercise. During intense exercise, the peaks and troughs of insulin spikes are much less significant and your body's state of stress is concerned with feeding the muscles pure glucose as quickly as possible. Some will argue that a quickly absorbed carbohydrate is the only fuel source your body needs, and I tend to agree with those people. I think of it like putting gas in the car. As I sip my maltodextrin every 15-20 minutes throughout the ride, I am delivering pure glucose very quickly to my muscles. In my opinion anything else (low glycemic index carbs, protein, fat) is just extra stuff my body does not need right now (it does need it during recovery though!) and will just be harder to digest and upset my stomach.

In the most literal sense, what difference does it make?

And is maltose the same thing as maltodextrin? It's been a while since biochemistry, but I didn't think they were the same thing.

I'd like to see the well-respected scientific results that make these caloric solutions such a vital component for performance - especially compared to what the folks back in the 70s and 80s were using.

There is tons...do some reading by the guy that Herbert just interviewed.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10870867

I got news for you, but that journal, while legitimate, has such a low impact factor in science that it would take 50 of those articles to even convince someone that there was a grounds to use it in elite athletics for a substantive advantage. I applaud such research being done, but if I based a PhD thesis on that article, I'd get blown out of the room by the reviewing academics.

They are the same.

I got news for you, but that journal, while legitimate, has such a low impact factor in science that it would take 50 of those articles to even convince someone that there was a grounds to use it in elite athletics for a substantive advantage. I applaud such research being done, but if I based a PhD thesis on that article, I'd get blown out of the room by the reviewing academics.

You can get cheap maltose, but generally they are used for bulking calories in low quality products. Not exactly top shelf stuff.

FYI we use maltose that is higher priced than that, and we buy it by the truckload. It does make a difference.

i think when they refer to quality they are mostly talking about justifying paying a lot for a fancy brand.

i think when they refer to quality they are mostly talking about justifying paying a lot for a fancy brand.

Maltodextrin consists of D-glucose units connected in chains of variable length. The glucose units are primarily linked with α(1→4) glycosidic bonds. Maltodextrin is typically composed of a mixture of chains that vary from three to seventeen glucose units long.[2]
Maltodextrins are classified by DE (dextrose equivalent) and have a DE between 3 to 20. The higher the DE value, the shorter the glucose chains, the higher the sweetness, the higher the solubility and the lower heat resistance. Above DE 20, the European Union's CN code calls it glucose syrup, at DE 10 or lower the customs CN code nomenclature classifies maltodextrins as dextrins.

What you mention (maltodextrin being a complex carb and needing to be mixed with dextrose), is actually one of the major misconceptions about maltodextrin. You're right, it is a longer chain carbohydrate, but it is not a "slow release" (ie. low glycemic index) carbohydrate. It is a polymer of dextrose (d-glucose) units linked together in chains of ~10 and is absorbed into the blood at essentially an identical rate as raw dextrose. The glycemic index of both dextrose and maltodextrin is ~100. If you were to add anything, I suppose you might want to add a LOW glycemic index carbohydrate to give you that "extended" release you mention.

However, the idea that high glycemic index sugars are bad because they give a quick rapid insulin peak is true primarily for your normal diet, but might not be as important during exercise. During intense exercise, the peaks and troughs of insulin spikes are much less significant and your body's state of stress is concerned with feeding the muscles pure glucose as quickly as possible. Some will argue that a quickly absorbed carbohydrate is the only fuel source your body needs, and I tend to agree with those people. I think of it like putting gas in the car. As I sip my maltodextrin every 15-20 minutes throughout the ride, I am delivering pure glucose very quickly to my muscles. In my opinion anything else (low glycemic index carbs, protein, fat) is just extra stuff my body does not need right now (it does need it during recovery though!) and will just be harder to digest and upset my stomach.

dunno, not mixing well would be a worry, contaminated with banned substances might be a worry. or bonus!

but its just corn (chemically altered corn of course)

HUGE variation in maltodextrines.

Mix-ability is far different from the low grade stuff up to the bev-grade. The cheap stuff will clump up into balls of goo.

The guy I quoted called bulk maltodextrin "not exactly top shelf stuff", implying that quality varies.... I'm just trying to understand if there's a difference that's significant enough to consider when buying bulk.

HUGE variation in maltodextrines.

Mix-ability is far different from the low grade stuff up to the bev-grade. The cheap stuff will clump up into balls of goo.

As a general rule, the longer the chain the better. The whole point of maltodextrin is you get more glucose molecules in your blood for any given amount of water. It GREATLY reduces bloating.

Be aware that the longer the chain, the less soluable it is in water. I mix my maltodextrin with warm water in the blender the day before my long ride, then put it in the fridge. One of the "qualities" that other guy was promoting was solubility. This stuff is ALL pure glucose, so more soluable means shorter chains means more water needed to deliver the same calories of glucose to your blood. If you want easy to mix, simple, no work involved, use something else. If you want to easily take 300-600 calories per hour on the bike, get a maltodextrin with a DE of 10 or less and mix with warm water in a blender and don't look back. I don't add ANYTHING to my my maltodextrin. No flavors or electrolytes. I use salt sticks for electrolytes and I eat regular meals for the great taste of real food.

Thanks for all the advice but the above seems to contradict itself, if my understanding of it is correct. Can you clarify?

I don't know if that answers your question or not.

high quality maltodextrins include the qd500 that you sometimes see references in these discussions.

qd=quick dispersion.

I've been using Carbo Pro with Kool-aid in training since last June. 4 hour rides in the heat have not been any problem.

500 is not even close to the top end of the QD line.

Look, we LOVE maltodextrine. It is one of the backbones of any quality sports drink. But it not the be all to end all. There is math that is tied to how much maltodextrine you can humanly process. Most people can absorb .9 gms per kilo of body weight, so for an average 160 lb triathlete that equates to aprx 240 calories per hour MAX. Not enough for most athletes. If you start dumping 3-400 calories from maltodextrine into your system you run a high risk of bloating like a tick on my dog.

The trick is to blend your carbs from different sources in order to maximize the calories you absorb.
The other keys is to keep the solution isotonic so your do not become dehydrated and your body doesn't start processing like food.

Maltodextrine has great properties like mix-ability and the ability to mix at high concentration in isotonic solutions. But it is not the magic bullet.

I don't want what I'm about to write to come off as contrarian. I respect your product for what you're trying to do with it (admittedly I've never tried it) and the fact that you guys do this custom blend thing. Very cool.

But if one is careful about mixing a good source of maltodextrin (lets just say a 800 calorie bottle of QD500 for shigs) with electrolytes (say several saltstick tabs) and chases each sip with LOTS of water to stay hypotonic, then what else are we missing?

Granted its a pain to do this all on your own, which is what you're catering to...the convenience factor. no?

But, (and I ask this with a genuine interest in the science) without analyzing my sweat yourselves, how can your custom blends be better tailored to me than a general shot in the dark like the one I'm taking above?
cheers
r

Mike

Basically what a lot of people on this thread are trying to do, is what you guys did many years ago. You more or less perfected it and are now, offering it as a commercial product . Athletes can use it in racing without too much thinking and dramatically reducing the possibility of self sabotage (which is prevelent in Ironman's first sport, which by now we all know is nutrition management).

Almost every failure in long course racing comes down to blowing either nutrition or pacing (both of which are inter related....) and have nothing to do with fitness. Infinit just reduces the possibility of blowing the nutrition side (but never eliminates it). The same can be done by trial and error home mixes too :-)

Dev

Again, you are doing what me and my original partner did 10 years ago. Maltodextrine with salt and some gatorade powder for flavor. We actually calculated the osmolality of the solution longhand if you can believe it just to show you what dorks we were. We just put the science (and math) in a platform that any athlete can use simply no matter if you are a 100 lb female sprint triathlete, or a 240 pound guy doing a 24 hour MTB race.

Simplicity, drink and ride your bike. Hard to screw that up.
.

Sorry for harping on about this, but is there any particular reason why you avoid answering the questions I asked? They're fairly simple....

???

We sampled probably 20 different maltodextrines. Along with 25 proteins etc. There is a difference in the product quality. That includes mix-ability, ability to stay mixed, stability in the heat and taste. It's a combination of all of it. Every single ingredient we buy, I buy like it is made for ME. We don't scrimp on anything. Our protein is pushing $10 a POUND, but it's worth it. I'd love to be able to buy inexpensive maltodextrine, but I won't do it.

But to your point maltodextrine is made from corn. Corn is corn. So chemically it's not that much different. But from a product overall performance you get what you pay for in this case. Most of what we buy is not available retail.
.

I keep harping on the calorie absorption rates, but it is a big deal. If you are absorbing only 240 calories with your maltodextrose system vs. 300+ with ours, don't you think that you may experience an improvement in performance?