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Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology
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As part of the Ironman Access Program apology video, Ben Fertic indicated that there are a group of athletes registering for "multiple multiple events, yet these athletes only compete in one event", and are no-shows at the other races. Ben mentioned the Ironman Access Program would free up 2500-3000 slots per year. Many of us found this hard to believe, so here's a quick analysis on how many multi-Ironman athletes really are out there:

  • As of October 29th, there are 27 athletes registered for three or more domestic Ironman races over the next 12 months. This includes Florida, Arizona, St. George, Texas, Coeur D'Alene, Lake Placid, Canada, Louisville, and Wisconsin. Florida and Arizona are 2010 races, the others are 2011 races.

Athletes Registered For Three or More Ironman Races in the Next 12 Months

  • There are two athletes signed up for 4 or more Ironman races. Andy Gardner wins top honors with five registered races: 2010 Florida, 2010 Arizona, 2011 Texas, 2011 Coeur d'Alene, and 2011 Louisville. A quick google reveals he raced Louisville this year and was top AGer out of the water at Kona. "Andy Gardner, a 30 year old physician assistant from Kingwood, Texas, entered the choppy waters of Kailua-Kona with over 1,800 triathletes from around the globe. Gardner finished the 2.4 mile swim in just over 52 minutes". Dude loves to race. The other 4+ IM athlete is Karen Smith, who could be two different people, since the lists show a 46 year old Karen Smith registered from Arizona and a 46 year old Karen Smith registered from Texas. I took an educated guess and assumed 46 yr old Karen Smith from TX is the same 46 Karen Smith from AZ.
  • If these 27 athletes ended up doing one Ironman, according to WTC the IM Access Program would help open up just over 50 slots.
  • The majority of athletes signed up for 3+ IMs are between the ages of 40-55. Is this the wealthy group of athletes the IM Access Program was targeting?
  • As for double IM athletes, there were just about 500 athletes (497 to be exact, plus or minus a few) signed up for two IMs in the next 12 months. Note these are only domestic IMs plus Canada. If these athletes ended up doing just one IM, it opens up just about 500 slots. (I'd include the list, but it's too long. If there's interest I can figure out a place to post. There were also some possible duplicates that were left out for common names like John Smith. For common names the age AND state had to match to be considered the same athlete. By the way there are 141 "Smiths" signed up for an IM over the next 12 months. So why did I include Karen Smith from AZ the same as Karen Smith from TX? Who knows.)
  • Ironman Texas is a popular race for those signed up for multiple IMs. 17-of-27 3+ IMers are signed up for IM TX and 188-of-500 double IMers are signed up as well.
  • Something I found interesting - there are plenty of 25-29 year old couples signed up for Ironman races. Seems newlyweds like to sign up for IMs together :)
  • The Couer d'Alene/Canada double is popular among Canadians
  • There are 45 athletes who's name shows up for the same race twice. IMUSA, Canada, and Wisconsin show the most common double registrants with 10, 11, and 15 respectively. Maybe these races allow the same person to sign up for two people if they sign up in person?
If what's presented here is accurate, best case assuming these athletes only end up doing one IM, it would open up just about 500 slots and realistically probably half of this as many of the double IMers are picking do-able doubles (e.g. AZ & IMUSA). Not nearly close enough to the 2500-3000 mentioned by WTC. Maybe the analysis WTC used for the 2500-3000 claim is innacurate, after doing the data crunching I could see how people with the same name could all be considered the same person, but when their age and hometown is looked at as well, the number is much less than 2500-3000.

Ben says, "By our estimation, we would gain 2,500 - 3,000 slots in the US with the IM Access Program." As another ST'er commented, I call total BS as well. There is no evidence there are thousands of people signing up for multiple races within the US with the intention of only doing one.
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [mpalavecino] [ In reply to ]
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You have got to be kidding....


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I'm faster in Kilometers!
Wattie Ink Triathlon Team
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]
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You have got to be kidding....

X2

Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [mpalavecino] [ In reply to ]
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You, Sir, have WAY too much time on your hands : )

They did away with a program that apparently was not popular among the ST crowd. I for one, don't really care WHY they did it, or the rational behind it......it really does not matter at all. They did what you wanted....let it go.

.
.
Paul
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [mpalavecino] [ In reply to ]
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How many more weeks of unemployment comp do you have remaining?
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [mpalavecino] [ In reply to ]
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Hmmmmm.

OP has lots of spare time, therefore probably trains a lot, and very interested in entrant lists as he races frequently (at a high level courtesy of all that training)...

...welcome to the board Andy :)



blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
- Muhammad Ali
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [596] [ In reply to ]
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x2.

And not sure how accurate your numbers are as I know someone doing 3 IM's who is not on the list.

But the research is amazing. I thought Fantasy Football was a waste of time.
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [bighorsecreek] [ In reply to ]
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How many more weeks of unemployment comp do you have remaining?

Lol. My guess is that with his remaining spare time he is working on a patent for an electric dog polisher.

Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [mpalavecino] [ In reply to ]
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Matias...I love you man! This is so type-A! I could only expect something like this from one of the most methodical and meticulous people I know. This is almost as detailed as your training log but not quite...
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [Fastyellow] [ In reply to ]
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I gotta defend Mr. mpalavecino, at least from the point view the engineering required to get that answers.

It's *maybe* a half a day or hacking at the most. You realize that participant lists are available, so you spend a few hours getting them and converting them into a form that can go into a database. Then you can ask just the question he's asking with very simple SQL queries.

Or, you just get the csv files of the participant lists and write a 50 line perl script that does this one specialized function. The script takes at least 20 minutes to write.

Give the guy a break! He just proved definitively that at least in the US, the idea that hundreds of folks are buying multiple IM slots is bogus.

What he did is called hacking. It's what we do baby!
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [mpalavecino] [ In reply to ]
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Good analysis. I think it's valid to continue with the analysis because Fertic makes it sound like it will at some point be coming back.


_________________________________________________

Yes, I shave my legs. Yes, I am comfortable with this. I am enlightened.
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [Flanagan] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks! I guess I missed the boat on this one... sure it was about five hours of work pulling lists off the internet, but the athlete lists are all here

http://www.ironmanusa.com/participants/index.php

A few hours of manipulating in Excel, plus an hour to write the post. Sorry, I type slow. :) Funny how I get crap from guys with close to 5,000 lifetime slowtwitch posts. Talk about ST junkies having way too much time on their hands...
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [mpalavecino] [ In reply to ]
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Actually- this is pretty interesting stuff. I appreciate all the effort you went to.

Tom Demerly
The Tri Shop.com
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [casman] [ In reply to ]
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x2.

And not sure how accurate your numbers are as I know someone doing 3 IM's who is not on the list.

But the research is amazing. I thought Fantasy Football was a waste of time.

Who and what three IMs?
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [mpalavecino] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks! I guess I missed the boat on this one... sure it was about five hours of work pulling lists off the internet, but the athlete lists are all here

http://www.ironmanusa.com/participants/index.php

A few hours of manipulating in Excel, plus an hour to write the post. Sorry, I type slow. :) Funny how I get crap from guys with close to 5,000 lifetime slowtwitch posts. Talk about ST junkies having way too much time on their hands...

Nah, I was just teasing as on initial appearance it looked like a whole ton of work.

I think you nailed the point that there aren't that many folks signed up for 3 or mor IM races in a 12 month span.

Course none of us believed Ben to begin with.

Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!
Last edited by: F Doucette: Nov 1, 10 15:49
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [F Doucette] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
How many more weeks of unemployment comp do you have remaining?


Lol. My guess is that with his remaining spare time he is working on a patent for an electric dog polisher.

I see you're signed up for Columbia & Eagleman. I look forward to crushing your dreams in 2011. ;)
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [mpalavecino] [ In reply to ]
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Myself,
IMAZ 2010 IMTexas 2011 IMC 2011 Charles (Chuck) Settles
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [mpalavecino] [ In reply to ]
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Is there a way to see what races they have signed up for in past years and how many of them they no showed for?
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [casman] [ In reply to ]
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For the record...I only have like a hundred posts or something....; )


-------------------------------
I'm faster in Kilometers!
Wattie Ink Triathlon Team
Powered by Accelerate 3
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [casman] [ In reply to ]
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Myself,
IMAZ 2010 IMTexas 2011 IMC 2011 Charles (Chuck) Settles

Thanks for the follow up. There may be more than I original thought... you see I sorted by age, but Chuck will be racing as a 42 yr old at AZ, and a 43 yr old at Texas & Canada. Crap... I didn't take that into account. This will increase the counts.
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [mpalavecino] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:
How many more weeks of unemployment comp do you have remaining?


Lol. My guess is that with his remaining spare time he is working on a patent for an electric dog polisher.

I see you're signed up for Columbia & Eagleman. I look forward to crushing your dreams in 2011. ;)

I have no idea how fast you are, but welcome any and all 'dream crushers'. I'm not that fast so my guess is you will easily accomplish your mission ;-)

Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [mpalavecino] [ In reply to ]
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Funny how I get crap from guys with close to 5,000 lifetime slowtwitch posts. Talk about ST junkies having way too much time on their hands...

No busting of the chops from me - nice work.

It shows that the WTC seem to be stretching the facts a bit
!

If I were a participant in WTC races, and I cared about this, I would write an eMail to Ben Fertic and ask why he said one thing and the factual analysis says something very different. Why is there such a disconnect? I often write politicians when they do this - when what they say, is very different than the facts of a given situation. I am always nice and polite. Sometimes they write back, and some times I hear nothing!



Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [mpalavecino] [ In reply to ]
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Dude. Haters are always going to hate. An excellent job crunching numbers and providing an evening worth of entertainment.


"The solution is to just go faster"
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [Tom Demerly] [ In reply to ]
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Actually- this is pretty interesting stuff. I appreciate all the effort you went to.

Why were the international races left out?


_____________________________________
DISH is how we do it.
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [F Doucette] [ In reply to ]
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I have no idea how fast you are, but welcome any and all 'dream crushers'. I'm not that fast so my guess is you will easily accomplish your mission ;-)

Matias is WAY too humble to toot his own horn, but you may be in for an a##kicking:

Rhode Island 70.3 Race Report (4:04:10) w/ HR & Nutrition Data

Boston Marathon Race Report (2:34) w/ HR

;-)

& Matias.....I see the off-season is here, eh?!?

---

Brian Shea
http://www.PersonalBestNutrition.com
Open-Water/Masters Swimming at the Jersey Shore:
Monmouth County NJ Ocean Swim/Masters Workouts
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [mpalavecino] [ In reply to ]
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Of these athletes, how many have registered in previous years for multiple Ironman events. And what is the historic percentage of these folks in terms of registering and racing?
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Here's how it is. About 5000 posts about WTC and Ironman Access boiled down to a simple reality:

WTC is losing out on "registration" money it feels is rightfully its own to the airlines and the local towns that host the Ironmans through money paid out by next years registrants who need to travel to the city in order to register. WTC wants to monetize some of this money the registrant is clearly willing to pay that is not going to WTC but to airlines, hotels, restaurants, toll booths, ...... They tried the Ironman Access program. WTC got internet bitch slapped by the masses for the blatantly greedy ridiculousness of it so copped together a lame "we're doing it for you not for the money" excuse. It's lame, it's pathetic, Fertic's explanation is so full of holes and Matias has just put some numbers to what was obvious.

But, this stumble won't stop them. They are an unapologetic for-profit venture (and there's nothing wrong with that) and they will find a way to monetize the true value for the demand for race registrations. It's called arbitrage and there's a big opportunity there. People are willing to spend more for their races than WTC is receiving, and WTC wants to reduce that gap.

WTC should just quit beating around the bush and just put all registrations on ebay. Skip onsite registrations entirely. Then they can get the true value of their registrations.

WTC, here's some advice to take to your equity firm board members when they're looking for ways to increase profits. Quit the fixed fee registration and fully leverage the supply-demand curve.
Last edited by: kny: Nov 1, 10 18:20
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [mpalavecino] [ In reply to ]
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So...of the people who are simply competing in "double IMs," precisely (I think this is a simple calculation) how much benefit would it be to THEM to sign up for IM Access. They would pay only slightly less? to be assured of competing in only one race. So saving even those 497 spots are "iffy," IMO.
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [NLG] [ In reply to ]
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I think you are confusing the pro program with this one. AG'ers would have had to pay a additonal grand to all the entry fees. Pros just pay one fee for all the races, except hawaii//
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [mpalavecino] [ In reply to ]
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his apology sounds like the lame BP's excuse for effing the gulf.
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [F Doucette] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Course none of us believed Ben to begin with.

Agreed. And thanks to the OP for proving it.

================================
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [Herbert] [ In reply to ]
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Of these athletes, how many have registered in previous years for multiple Ironman events. And what is the historic percentage of these folks in terms of registering and racing?


I have completed 100% of the races I registered for.....I dont get the whole airline booking scheme....I need a business that sells stuff that people never get......I smell madof.....


Semper Fi

Motor, Suffer, Bonk
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [monty] [ In reply to ]
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AGers - Race 1 ~$500 to $600 + Race 2 ~$500 to $600 = $1000 to $1200

AGers [IM Access] - Membership $1000 + Race 1 ~$500 to $600 = $1500 to $1600

Hmmm.
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [NLG] [ In reply to ]
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If his explanation has any truth to it (which I don't think it does) then it does explain the strict "No Refund Policy."
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [G2789] [ In reply to ]
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the data of the OP is incredible and highly interesting.

i appreciated his research. thanks.

his objective was to enlighten us with his analysis, nothing more.

enlighten us of what? its up to you how you take it. I was enlightened.

the first time I heard fertic's 2500-3000 statement , in 5 seconds using my common sense I figured it was not possible.

the OP's data only convinced me further.

andrew
Last edited by: andrewcasino: Nov 1, 10 21:43
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [mpalavecino] [ In reply to ]
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Good stuff. I see this as just curiosity on the accuracy of the statements put forth by WTC. This was interesting. No wonder this guy is so fast--if he takes his research as seriously as his training, it is easy to see why he goes so fast.
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [mpalavecino] [ In reply to ]
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Well done on the analysis.

I think this should be posted as an update to the Slowtwitch front pages article/interview with WTC representive. Clearly they've been caught out lying.

I respect their decision either way, but I'd support slowman, Rappstar etc to move this research to the front page and inform WTC so we can perhaps get their response.

Slowtwitch has already quoted posters on this forum in the article. I think the opening post of this thread is the best researched post yet and deserves attention.
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [The Real Animal] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Well done on the analysis.

I think this should be posted as an update to the Slowtwitch front pages article/interview with WTC representive. Clearly they've been caught out lying.

I respect their decision either way, but I'd support slowman, Rappstar etc to move this research to the front page and inform WTC so we can perhaps get their response.

Slowtwitch has already quoted posters on this forum in the article. I think the opening post of this thread is the best researched post yet and deserves attention.

x10
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [The Real Animal] [ In reply to ]
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Well done on the analysis.

I think this should be posted as an update to the Slowtwitch front pages article/interview with WTC representive. Clearly they've been caught out lying.

I respect their decision either way, but I'd support slowman, Rappstar etc to move this research to the front page and inform WTC so we can perhaps get their response.

Slowtwitch has already quoted posters on this forum in the article. I think the opening post of this thread is the best researched post yet and deserves attention.

____________________________

x100 :)
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [The Real Animal] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Well done on the analysis.

I think this should be posted as an update to the Slowtwitch front pages article/interview with WTC representive. Clearly they've been caught out lying.

I respect their decision either way, but I'd support slowman, Rappstar etc to move this research to the front page and inform WTC so we can perhaps get their response.

Slowtwitch has already quoted posters on this forum in the article. I think the opening post of this thread is the best researched post yet and deserves attention.


Oh I agree. I do think that Matias has admitted that he missed out on the people who will be racing in one age this year (IMFL, IMAZ, IMCOZ) and a different age next year. ie; the number of folks doing 3 or more IMs is likely higher than his estimate. Maybe he is going to work on that?

Either way it confirms that Ben's 'apology' was what many of us suspected... a bold-faced lie.

I don't hate WTC and am registered for a few of their races next year, but I do hate it when people lie and expect everyone to be stupid and just accept the lie. Let's face it, WTC made a grab for a few more $$$. I was actually OK with it as it wasn't going to take away spots from others and it wasn't something I was going to buy.

Maybe the apology should have been "We are trying to grow our business. We came up with the Ironman Access program as a revenue generator. Due to negative consumer feedback we have decided to shelve this program"

then again, WTC simply can't make some people happy regardless of what they do can they?


PS: Matias, you are smoking fast. I would have zero chance of even coming close to you in a race!

Thank God I am not in your age group ;-)

Founder of THE TRIATHLON COLLECTIVE (Closed Facebook Group). A SBR discussion group without the white noise/trolling!
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [mpalavecino] [ In reply to ]
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I like the analysis. Am sure it is just a good attempt.
I think most of the people who enter multiple ironman events would do at least 2 of them.
Seeing the historical data of what happened would be interesting.

it seems WTC were trying to copy what was set up for the pro's in a different version.

So the idea was you pay a grand and then what, you pick any ironman you want or what? I will read the background up.

G.
www.TriathlonShots.com

http://www.TriathlonShots.com
Full event coverage of triathlon/ironman in photos.


Last edited by: triathlonshots: Nov 2, 10 4:47
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [mpalavecino] [ In reply to ]
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I LOVE your analysis.

Another obvious lie from the WTC was this quote (from the ST article):

"They don't know what their schedules are going to look like. Once a place on their schedule opens up, that's the race they participate in. But they're no-shows at all the other races, and we might've filled that spot by with another entrant."

How would ironman Access solve this problem? My interpretation of this quote is that people sign up for 2-3 events because they don't know their schedule NEXT year. The Access program only lets them buy their entry one year + one week earlier, right? So how would that help anyone who still doesn't know what their schedule will be like NEXT year? People would still sign up for multiple events, and decide based on their schedule, so clearly this program wasn't for them , either. They obviously just wanted more money- plain and simple- why lie?
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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I would think that if the primary concern was freeing up 'reserved' spots then the Access program would have come with a Transfer Policy for it's members - freeing up any spots AND bringing in money. Since you have to buy a spot a year in advance for the majority of the races, how does WTC know that's the reason these folks are buying multiple spots? perhaps they fully intended to do all three and life got in the way. perhaps WTC has data we don't. doens't matter in the end, the program is gone.

Thanks to the OP for an fun read this morning.
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [SusanH] [ In reply to ]
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Here's the spreadsheet:

Domestic IM Registrations as of Oct 29, 2010

Participants list in Excel, makes it easy to find what you're looking for. Sort by IM (AZ, FL, St.G, TX, CdA, LP, Canada, Louisville, Wisconsin), Age, Last Name, Gender, State.

Focused on non-intl IMs since the the 2500-3000 number was based on domestic IMs. And more work gathering registration lists from non-US IMs.

Comparing the registered athletes to the results would be neat to see. That starts to get more complicated, but if someone wants to go for it or has questions about the spreadsheet let me know.
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [Fleck] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Funny how I get crap from guys with close to 5,000 lifetime slowtwitch posts. Talk about ST junkies having way too much time on their hands...

No busting of the chops from me - nice work.

It shows that the WTC seem to be stretching the facts a bit
!

If I were a participant in WTC races, and I cared about this, I would write an eMail to Ben Fertic and ask why he said one thing and the factual analysis says something very different. Why is there such a disconnect? I often write politicians when they do this - when what they say, is very different than the facts of a given situation. I am always nice and polite. Sometimes they write back, and some times I hear nothing!

Adding to the mystery, is that there is a much easier way to accomplish what he claims to be the motivation. Challenge charges app $50 bucks extra for cancellation insurance and you get your entrance fee back up to 90 days before the race if you cancel. With a sold out race, these slots could then be filled from a waiting list. Of course, the difference is that this would not generate nearly as much revenue as their failed plan.

I have always felt that the WTC as evil empire meme is quite hysterical. However, is getting a little harder defend them.
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [mpalavecino] [ In reply to ]
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Just an fyi, I think there's a flaw in your analysis, b/c I personally am signed up for two and I'm not on your list.
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [Elsa] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Just an fyi, I think there's a flaw in your analysis, b/c I personally am signed up for two and I'm not on your list.


I agree.

I used age to separate the 26 year old John Smith from the 48 year old John Smith. However, there may be a 27 year old John Smith racing IMAZ, and will race as a 28 yr old at IMLP. In fact, there may be a LOT of them.

Thanks to Chuck and others for pointing this out, for example Chuck will be racing as a 42 yr old at AZ, and a 43 yr old at Texas & Canada. He was not included in the original 3+ IMers list. There are likely a lot more Chucks out there in the world (or at least in the US). In fact, there could be up to 500 athletes signed up for three or more IMs. This makes Fertic's 2500-3000 claim more realistic.

So maybe Fertic's 2500-3000 statement is accurate. If someone wants to go for it, the spreadsheet has all the data you need to figure it out.

Last edited by: mpalavecino: Nov 2, 10 10:28
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [mpalavecino] [ In reply to ]
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So maybe Fertic's 2500-3000 statement is accurate. If someone wants to go for it, the spreadsheet has all the data you need to figure it out.
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It makes the fact that there are maybe 1500 people signing up for multiple IM's accurate, it doesnt make the fact that there are 2500 unused slots a year because of multiple signups accurate.

-------------------------------------
You don't have to like what I say but you should respect my right to say them and I'll do the same to you.
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [mpalavecino] [ In reply to ]
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So maybe Fertic's 2500-3000 statement is accurate. If someone wants to go for it, the spreadsheet has all the data you need to figure it out. //

Several things here, even if there are that many multiple ironman entries(I believe 100% there are not), then 100% of them would have to be ditching all but one of their races, which of course they do not. I know tons of people that do multiple ironmans, some much more that they should. It would be virtually impossible to see exactly how many slots are in Ben's category, you would have to actually have to compare start lists, since some people would show up to a race but drop out. Some races reach near 20% dropout on a bad day, so perhaps if you could get swim results it would be more accurate. Then you would have to back out the people that were actually injured or sick, that probably runs around 5% to 8%. Then there are the other good excuses not to race, death in families, kid being born, major family problem, ect. All those folks entered with the full intention of racing, not Ben's shady scenario of entering just to choose later. So another 2% to 6% there.

SO if you could figure out all of that, which you took a very good 1st step in doing, you could get a very close #. It might be about 50, and I believe I'm being generous. A lot more if you count pros, but that is a different system the WTC created for themselves. I said it from the very beginning, this was a thrown together coverup of the real reason, and it turned out to be as inept as the initial program....

Thanks for your work though, always interesting to look at numbers. You tore apart Bens made up excuse, and now the forum detectives are pulling apart your numbers. Well not pulling apart exactly, but helping you refine them to be more accurate, man I love this forum... You would think high profile people in the industry would know by now that they cannot get away with any sort of bullshit, but I guess not yet.
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [The Real Animal] [ In reply to ]
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I really appreciate Matias's research, and I think it's compelling. However, we aren't currently planning on writing an article on it for one simple reason - as much as this data appears to undercut Fertic's apology, I don't think it's entirely surprising. The explanation given has already been pointed out to be flawed on several counts. IMAccess gave people the opportunity to sign up for an Ironman a week early. That's it.

As numerous people have pointed out, allowing someone to sign up a week EARLY really offered little no benefit to someone who was signing up for multiple IMs because of potential scheduling conflicts. If you are signing up for IMCdA, IMLP, and IMKY because you aren't sure if you're going to have the most free time in June, July, or August, then how does signing up a week in ADVANCE of everyone else alleviate those concerns? Simply put, it does not.

Like many people, I read the IMAccess program initially as being similar to the Pro program - albeit entry fees were still required - as in "you can sign up whenever you want." Figure they would ask the IMAccess people which races they were considering, then set aside X slots for those races. Something like that.

Then I re-read it thanks to some other folks bringing up the issue and saw that all it was an opportunity for EARLY reg. And then I realized the program made no sense. It was $1000 to "cut in line," but it wasn't actually clear that anyone wanted to cut in line or that cutting in line would somehow offer some sort of benefit to other folks down the line.

So, the way I see it, there are a couple things to consider here. Fertic issued an apology. Check. WTC rescinded the program. Check. So now, the question is, do you really want to get up in arms about the public apology vs. the "real" reason. Would everyone actually be happier if somehow WTC was further shamed? What does that achieve?

Let's think back to the compression sock ban. My own strictly personal opinion is that compression socks were banned - briefly - because they look ridiculous (speaking as someone who has worn them during an IM marathon). But that was not a good reason. So they said it was to keep ages on calves from being hidden. Then they rescinded it. But we never asked them admit that they were trying to make IM "look better on TV." Though I'm pretty sure that was the reason. But, ultimately, they listened to the athletes and never instituted the ban.

The simplest story is this: WTC instituted a program that they felt would increase their revenue stream. People spoke out against it, and WTC rescinded it. I don't see the benefit in really hammering home that the explanation for the now defunct program didn't add up. It's DOA. Let it die.

What I can promise you is that if IMAccess comes back in some form or another at some point in the future and if "multiple sign-ups" is touted as the reason, then you can be sure Matias's data will be instrumental in our writing a story then. Until such point, I think you all should feel proud that folks like you took the time to speak out and were heard.

Right now, it seems like a story based off this is a bit like beating a dead horse. Just because it's a horse you REALLY want to beat doesn't make it a more productive endeavour.

"Non est ad astra mollis e terris via." - Seneca | rappstar.com | FB - Rappstar Racing | IG - @jordanrapp
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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Right now, it seems like a story based off this is a bit like beating a dead horse. Just because it's a horse you REALLY want to beat doesn't make it a more productive endeavour.

I love this line.

Especially when there are so MANY better stories that could be written to beat this horse properly (blackout dates, lack of entry refund/waitlist, their horrible drinks, running out of water, etc.)

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You don't have to like what I say but you should respect my right to say them and I'll do the same to you.
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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As numerous people have pointed out, allowing someone to sign up a week EARLY really offered little no benefit to someone who was signing up for multiple IMs because of potential scheduling conflicts. If you are signing up for IMCdA, IMLP, and IMKY because you aren't sure if you're going to have the most free time in June, July, or August, then how does signing up a week in ADVANCE of everyone else alleviate those concerns? Simply put, it does not.


The only benifit to the user/potential WTC point would be in the few cases that sign up for an earlier IM, say IM CDA because you where not sure if you where going to get into Placid at all because you where not on site. You really want to do Placid, but will settle for CDA rather than nothing. The Access program allowed you to not put any money down for CDA, and quarantee entry into Placid. As I think Mike P pointed out, you pay $1600 for guaranteed entry vs either $1200 and don't do CDA or fly to Placid a year in advance and end up with $2000+ in entry fees/flighs/hotel etc.
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [mpalavecino] [ In reply to ]
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How many more weeks of unemployment comp do you have remaining?


Lol. My guess is that with his remaining spare time he is working on a patent for an electric dog polisher.


I see you're signed up for Columbia & Eagleman. I look forward to crushing your dreams in 2011. ;)

Sorry bud. Matias Palavecino has been banned from every WTC event in the future.

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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [sdmike] [ In reply to ]
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Exactly. For that reason alone I briefly considered jumping on it.

Edit to add:

Some would see this as cutting in line, and horrors, using my money (I earned it and saved it, and it ain't all that much) to do so.

Others would recognize that volunteers and current year competitors are at the front of the line by virtue of using their faster internet connections, proximity to the race venue, free time to go volunteer, and other advantages that I did not have. Not complaining here, just saying that there are other ways to look at things when you step into someone elses shoes.
Last edited by: greg'n: Nov 2, 10 16:32
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Re: Analysis of Ben Fertic's Apology [Rappstar] [ In reply to ]
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"...Right now, it seems like a story based off this is a bit like beating a dead horse. Just because it's a horse you REALLY want to beat doesn't make it a more productive endeavour...."

Now finally someone around here standing up for animal rights albeit dead animal rights!!!

OK, carry on!

Seriously though, if they put 100% of IM slots on Ebay, the ~$1600 for IM Access+Entry is going to look like the "going rate". I would love to see where the average entry fee would converge to if everything was auctioned and the market dictated the final price point....then again, the "going rate" for IM St. George might end up being well below $400, while LP goes for ~$2000......

Dev
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