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Spain's Green Energy Disaster Replicated Here in the US (UPDATED with Obama's Growing List of Failure)

 

 


chainpin

May 18, 10 10:03

Post #1 of 72 (4390 views)
Spain's Green Energy Disaster Replicated Here in the US (UPDATED with Obama's Growing List of Failure) Quote | Reply

Spain, that socialist bastion of waste, fraud and misallocated capital has finally come to grips with the fact that the country's "green initiatives" are a complete and utter fucking fiscal disaster.

But don't worry Barry wants to model the American Power Act on the green template used in........drum roll.....you guessed it.....SPAIN!!!

Yay for Barry!!!!

You can't make this shit up.

Oh, and BTW, Spain is now abandoning their "green" because of all the red.

http://pajamasmedia.com/...ive/?singlepage=true

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06



(This post was edited by chainpin on Oct 18, 12 18:38)


justgeorge

May 18, 10 18:26

Post #2 of 72 (4302 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

awesome. just awesome.

I can't believe Obama's "under our plan electricity rates will necessarily skyrocket" quote didn't get more play during the election.


cerveloguy

May 18, 10 18:29

Post #3 of 72 (4300 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

"Spain, that socialist bastion"

There is an old European expression that if you're not a socialist in your 20's then you don't have a heart, but if you are still a socialist in your 50's then you don't have a brain.

But if you think free market capitalism would be better then you're even a much bigger fool.


peter826

May 18, 10 18:36

Post #4 of 72 (4293 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Man, thank GOD for Pajamas Media for getting to the bottom of this.


chainpin

May 18, 10 19:04

Post #5 of 72 (4282 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [peter826] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Man, thank GOD for Pajamas Media for getting to the bottom of this.



They are just doing the job that the Government Media Complex refuses to do.

Here are the facts about the failure of Spain's energy "policy" (emphasis mine):



1) Renewable Energy: Situation and Objectives April 2010

2) Renewable Energy Situation: The price of electricity affects household welfare

According to EuroStat data, the cost of electricity for households in Spain moved from below the European average to slightly above the average (+5% higher)

3) Renewable Energy Situation: The price of electricity determines the competitiveness of Spanish industry

Energy is a key input in industrial production processes. In basic industries (cement, industrial gases, metals, basic chemicals and steel), energy costs are three times the labor cost. The electrical cost for the Spanish industry is well above the European average (+17% higher).

4) Renewable Energy Situation: The price increase is mainly due to additional costs of renewables

The price of electricity determines the competitiveness of Spanish industry
Historical evolution of the prices of light and pool price [Appears above a graph showing a 77% price spike in industry's price for electricity]
A price increase cannot be explained by the evolution of electricity market price (pool), which has even fallen since 2005

5) Renewable Energy Situation: The price increase is mainly due to additional costs of renewables

The increase in the over-cost paid for renewable energy explains more than 120% of the variation of the electric bill, and has offset the reduction in production costs of conventional electricity (25%)
To these direct costs of renewables must be added indirect costs, as the need for additional investment in networks to integrate renewables (about 10% of planned investment in the planning) and capacity payments to the modular backup facilities (coal and gas) that are running a smaller number of hours

6) Situation of renewable energy: renewable energy has had a positive impact …

Thanks to the increase of renewable energies in the mix:
The rate of energy supply has increased by 3 points since 2005, to 23%, and the import of energy products has been reduced 5.500M Euro (including hydraulics).
Emissions have been reduced significantly, thanks primarily to the mix of electric generation being much cleaner (less than 120 tons of CO2 emissions per GWh of oil produced).

7) Situation of renewable energy: but its evolution in recent years has been too fast

From 2004-2010 the amount of premiums [over-cost paid for renewable energy; the subsidy] has increased fivefold. Only in 2009 it doubled over the previous year to reach 5.045M€, equivalent in amount to the entire public investment in R + D + i in Spain. [The renewables subsidy equaled the entire cost of producing electricity in Spain]. The forecast for 2010 is 6.300M€ (although 5.800M€ budgeted in January). This should add 1.000M€ for cogeneration.
With operational facilities, the renewable sector will receive in the next 25 years more than 126.000M€. In this factor, it adds a commitment to continue providing input to the renewable energies in the mix to meet the European objectives, which will increase this figure significantly.

8 ) Situation of renewable energy: Heterogeneity of renewables: costs

In 2009, the solar photovoltaic technology accounted for 53% of the extra cost of renewables, while they contributed only 11% of energy generated from these sources.

9) Situation of renewable energy: Heterogeneity of renewables: Impact on the external sector

Exports: Net exports of Spanish wind industry 1.300M€ contributed to the trade balance in 2008 and, besides, wind generation avoids fossil imports of 3.6M€.
Imports: By contrast, the PV industry growth was not gradual, hampering the formation of an auxiliary Spanish industry. In 2008 imports of photovoltaic cells and modules in Spain amounted to 5.182M€ (28.6% of net imports of crude and derivatives) as long around the 62% were imported.

10) Situation of renewable energy: Heterogeneity of renewables: Technical problems

Network Management. The proliferation of small plants and fluctuations in the availability of technologies hinder the management of the network.

11) Situation of renewable energy:

Regulatory mechanisms to support renewables have been:
– Pioneers in the world, which has allowed us to stay ahead of the industry, learn from the experience and finding some excesses.
There are numerous examples of these high returns: analyst reports, premiums accepted in other countries, over-subscription in the pre-records, facilities willing to accept lower premiums, “paper market” …
– Overly cautious about the ability of cost reduction technologies
– Inflexible, thereby preventing adjust remuneration to market signals and technological advancement
– Hardly told them by the administration in setting prices initially and have no control over the amounts … Which has caused a “bubble effect,” such as seen with photovoltaics in 2008 and the emergence of the thermal bubble (which would have continued in 2010 and successively had it not been for the pre-registration requirement imposed), as well as a sharp increase the over-costs [subsidies] paid to renewables in the form of a feed-in tariff.

12) Situation of renewable energy: Heterogeneity of renewables: International comparison

In wind power, our rates are in line with Europe. However, solar photovoltaics, Spanish retribution has been the most high, despite the higher number of hours of sun and more solar radiation.
Spain Wind € 75-84/MWh Solar €265/295/350/450/MWh
China Wind € 56-67 Solar € 121/MWh
Japan Wind € 73-89/MWh
Germany Wind € 92/MWh Solar € 287-395/MWh
France Wind € 82/MWh Solar €310-380
Italy Wind € 85/MWh Solar € 350-390
Poland Wind € 90/MWh

13) Situation of renewable energy: Recent technological developments

The investment costs of renewable energies mainly depend on its technological learning curve
The plots have experienced tremendous technological development in recent years, reducing their investment costs
Not being mature technologies, have much future room for improvement, which informs a decision to slow its current expansion

14) Situation of renewable energy: What have we done?

The Government has adapted the following initiatives:
– A new framework for PV in 2008 (RD1578/2008) that brings order to the pace of installation and marking signs ecstatic that transfer with May fast technological development gains to consumers
– Creation of a technology pre-registration for the remainder of May 2009 has allowed us to avoid the “bubble” that was generated in thermal and prevent the system being made even more untenable in 2010.
– Package of measures for the reduction to the tariff deficit with input from the traditional electric companies, consumers and government (without the contribution of renewable energy).

15) Situation of renewable energy: Difficulties in reducing the tariff deficit

– The Government is committed by law to eliminate by 2013 the tariff deficit
– Despite the evolution of the wholesale market (pool), the balance of certain items (the Iberian peninsula, nuclear waste) and higher light, the rate deficit was only slightly reduced.

16) Objectives

– Reaching 20% of final energy and 40% of electric generation from renewable sources by 2020.
– Reducing the deficit and preserve the competitiveness of industry and household welfare.
– Transfer gains in technological developments to consumers.
– Avoid speculation caused by excess profits, which damages its image and retards the construction of the plants pre-assigned (with an adverse effect on the industry).
– Mitigate the incentive for fraud that can generate the current differential between the rate and the price of the pool.
– Promote technological improvement and cost reduction, advancing the attainment of “grid parity,” which will allow greater installation of renewables until 2020


"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06



mojozenmaster

May 18, 10 19:39

Post #6 of 72 (4268 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Anything "Green Energy" is a total joke. It will never be successful here or anywhere. Solar farms and wind farms sound nice until reality sets in: The reality that the thousands of acres set aside for said solar/wind farm, etc will destroy the habitat of some exotic cricket or moth that no-one has ever heard of = get your ass sued off by The Sierra Club where the case will be stuck in the courts for decades.

If green energy has any kind of future, it's 50 years away from being viable. Unless of course B.O. bulldozes through the status quo of special interest enviro whack jobs with some aggressive eminent domain action and relaxation of permits and environmental impact studies.

Paradoxically, envrio whack jobs are Obama's base and that kind of sucks for any aggressive green energy agenda.

Therefore, Green Energy is bullshit.....although I do admire the folks who through their wits, ingenuity and resources are successful in "living off of the grid."


**All of these words finding themselves together were greatly astonished and delighted for assuredly, they had never met before**


Mr. Tibbs

May 18, 10 19:43

Post #7 of 72 (4266 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Do you ever have an original thought? Everything you write follows the Republican Style Points to a T.
customerjon @gmail.com is where information happens.


justfast

May 18, 10 20:11

Post #8 of 72 (4247 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [Mr. Tibbs] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Do you ever have an original thought? Everything you write follows the Republican Style Points to a T.

I didn't become a Republican (lesser of two evils) until the Democratic debacle of 2008.

PS: I prefer to be called a Federalist.


chainpin

May 19, 10 8:21

Post #9 of 72 (4186 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [Mr. Tibbs] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Do you ever have an original thought? Everything you write follows the Republican Style Points to a T.


I take great delight in writing about the complete and utter failure of progressive/socialistic policy decisions made by economically illiterate politicians.

If the failure of the green economy in Spain is part of the Republican's critcism of Obama, then so be it.

It does nothing to change the facts about our socialist President's looming policy failures, which is more important than some virtual list of talking points concocted by you.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06



Rodred

May 19, 10 8:28

Post #10 of 72 (4183 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Its funny to watch those with a clue in Europe screaming at the administration not to follow their lead and yet we just plug away and the general populations gets mad about who won Dancing with the Stars.

Or course Erin Andrews could easily be the cause of global warming.

~
“The instinct to survive is human nature itself, and every aspect of our personalities derives from it. Anything that conflicts with the survival instinct acts sooner or later to eliminate the individual and thereby fails to show up in future generations.

(This post was edited by Rodred on May 19, 10 8:28)


chainpin

May 19, 10 8:40

Post #11 of 72 (4177 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [Rodred] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Its funny to watch those with a clue in Europe screaming at the administration not to follow their lead and yet we just plug away and the general populations gets mad about who won Dancing with the Stars.

Or course Erin Andrews could easily be the cause of global warming.


Seriously, if this is part of the Repubs talking points, then their talking points suck, because I haven't seen shit about this here in the US.

Of course, if it comes from pajamas media(and they have primary source material to back up their piece) it must be garbage--such is the contorted liberal/progresive midset these days.

But in reality, they know the facts are correct, they know that green = fraud, but since it doesn't fit the redistribution storyboard, they don't want to hear about it.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06



Boudreaux

May 19, 10 8:55

Post #12 of 72 (4167 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

But...but...I thought Social Justice was good.

"you know, aero trumps training ;-) "
R10C 10/09


FJB

May 19, 10 9:42

Post #13 of 72 (4144 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [justfast] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I didn't become a Republican (lesser of two evils) until the Democratic debacle of 2008.

What was the Democratic debacle in 2008?


Rodred

May 19, 10 9:44

Post #14 of 72 (4141 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [FJB] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
I didn't become a Republican (lesser of two evils) until the Democratic debacle of 2008.

What was the Democratic debacle in 2008?


Being taken over by their radical wing?

~
“The instinct to survive is human nature itself, and every aspect of our personalities derives from it. Anything that conflicts with the survival instinct acts sooner or later to eliminate the individual and thereby fails to show up in future generations.


justgeorge

May 19, 10 9:45

Post #15 of 72 (4141 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [Rodred] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Or course Erin Andrews could easily be the cause of global warming.


I know she gets me all hot....


chainpin

Jun 14, 10 17:11

Post #16 of 72 (4078 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [justgeorge] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

How fortunate for Obama that the BP oil disaster has allowed him to revive his green jobs agenda--remember it is modeled after Spain's bankrupt system outlined above.

Never let a crises go to waste will again be in full swing.

And in between rounds of golf and White House concerts by suck ass musicians, Obama has found time to craft an email asking people to help back his "clean energy" agenda.

My favorite line is the following:

"There will be transition costs and a time of adjustment."

Really, no shit?

In my OP it is shown conclusively that Spain's green job utopia is now a fucking unmitigated financial nightmare.

The people are having to adjust all right, they are adjusting to their fucked up situation, including 20% unemployment.

The cost will be untold amounts of wealth summarily destroyed.

Spain's green economy has failed, that is a fact.

Obama's green economy will fail too, that is a fact.

Read it for yourself:

Dear xxxxxxx,

The BP oil spill in the Gulf Coast is the worst environmental disaster of its kind in our nation’s history. I am returning to the region today to review our efforts and meet with families and business owners affected by the catastrophe.

We are working to hold BP accountable for the damage to the lands and the livelihoods of the Gulf Coast, and we are taking strong precautions to make certain a spill like this never happens again.

But our work will not end with this crisis. That’s one of the reasons why last week I invited lawmakers from both parties to join me at the White House to discuss what it will take to move forward on legislation to promote a new economy powered by green jobs, combat climate change, and end our dependence on foreign oil.

Today, we consume more than 20 percent of the world’s oil, but have less than two percent of the world’s oil reserves. Beyond the risks inherent in drilling four miles beneath the surface of the Earth, our dependence on oil means that we will continue to send billions of dollars of our hard-earned wealth to other countries every month — including many in dangerous and unstable regions.

In other words, our continued dependence on fossil fuels will jeopardize our national security. It will smother our planet. And it will continue to put our economy and our environment at risk. We cannot delay any longer, and that is why I am asking for your help.

Please stand with me today in backing clean energy. Adding your name will help Organizing for America create a powerful, public display of support for making this change happen.

The time has come, once and for all, for this nation to fully embrace a new future. That means continuing our unprecedented effort to make everything — from our homes and businesses to our cars and trucks — more energy-efficient. It means rolling back billions of dollars of tax breaks to oil companies so we can prioritize investments in clean energy research and development.

Many businesses support this agenda because shifting to clean energy creates opportunities for entrepreneurship. This is how we will reinvent our economy — and create new companies and new jobs all across the country.

There will be transition costs and a time of adjustment. But if we refuse to heed the warnings from the disaster in the Gulf — we will have missed our best chance to seize the clean-energy future we know America needs to thrive in the years and decades to come.

The House of Representatives has already passed a comprehensive energy and climate bill, and there is currently a plan in the Senate — a plan that was developed with ideas from Democrats and Republicans — that would achieve the same goal. But this is an issue that Washington has long ignored in favor of protecting the status quo.

So I’m asking for your help today to show that the American people are ready for a clean-energy future.

Please add your name to mine:

http://my.barackobama.com/CleanEnergy

Thank you,

President Barack Obama

Obama will destroy

Jobs

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06



chainpin

Jun 17, 10 7:21

Post #17 of 72 (3994 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I would like to keep this thread front in center since it is such a great example of the spectacular failure of progressive energy policy.

I have provided evidence that Spain's green economy is a failure.

But of course this is probably just an isolated economic disaster, right?

Wrong!

The green jobs fraud is just that, a full on fucking fraud.

There is no such thing as a green job, these are taxpayer subsidized jobs that detract from overall net job creation.

Please turn your attention to the Danish wind industry.

Here is the study link: http://www.cepos.dk/..._case_of_Denmark.pdf

"Denmark’s subsidies for wind power ended up having no net impact on job creation, but instead just shifted workers from unsubsidized to subsidized jobs, and at the cost of two average annual salaries per job."

"The Danish Wind industry counts 28,400 employees. This does not, however, constitute the net employment effect of the wind mill subsidy. In the long run, creating additional employment in one sector through subsidies will detract labor from other sectors, resulting in no increase in net employment but only in a shift from the non-subsidized sectors to the subsidized sector. Allowing for the theoretical possibility of wind employment alleviating possible regional pockets of high unemployment, a very optimistic ballpark estimate of net real job creation is 10% of total employment in the sector. In this case the subsidy per job created is 600,000-900,000 DKK per year ($90,000-140,000). This subsidy constitutes around 175-250% of the average pay per worker in the Danish manufacturing industry."

So, let's recap:

Spaniards lost 2.2 jobs for every 1 green job created since 2000.

A subsidized wind industry job in Denmark costs $140k per year.

Obama wants to model his energy policy after countries like the above.

His energy policy will be a fucking disaster, mark my words.

Solar and wind are really cool technologies, but they are not economically viable.

Sometime I'll post some pics of my small PV system and show you all how fucking cool it is, I'll also show you how much it cost and how fucking impractical it is even for the tiny project I'm using it for.

The bottom line is the only people benefiting from the push for green jobs are communists like Van Jones that exploit the sheeple who think this shit is going to change their lives.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06



chainpin

Oct 18, 10 18:46

Post #18 of 72 (3884 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I really like this thread so I thought I would update it with some new information on Spain's unfolding green energy clusterfuck shitpot.

This article from today paints a picture only a socialist could love.

Maybe they should just call it "red energy."

Amazing, the laws of economics hold, even for solar power energy funded via government subsidy.

Fucking amazing!

http://www.bloomberg.com/...olicies-founder.html

Vilimelis, 35, a procurement manager for a consumer goods company, pooled his family savings and mortgaged his apartment to obtain a loan of more than 400,000 euros ($558,500) to cover the investment. Within nine months, the family’s 80-kilowatt generation unit -- 500 solar panels on seven racks angled toward the sun -- was feeding power into the national grid.

Solar investors such as Vilimelis were lured by a 2007 law passed by the government of Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero that guaranteed producers a so-called solar tariff of as much as 44 cents per kilowatt-hour for their electricity for 25 years -- more than 10 times the 2007 average wholesale price of about 4 cents per kilowatt-hour paid to mainstream energy suppliers.

Thanks to the incentives, the family met the monthly cost of the loan and even earned a small profit. Once the debt was paid off in 2018, Vilimelis looked forward to making even more money during the 15 additional years of subsidies guaranteed under Spanish law.

‘You Feel Cheated’

Now Vilimelis and more than 50,000 other Spanish solar entrepreneurs face financial disaster as the policy makers contemplate cutting the price guarantees that attracted their investment in the first place.

“You feel cheated,” he says. “We put our money in on the basis of a law.”

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06



ScottyBoy

Oct 19, 10 7:13

Post #19 of 72 (3824 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
The green jobs fraud is just that, a full on fucking fraud.

There is no such thing as a green job, these are taxpayer subsidized jobs that detract from overall net job creation.

Funny... You can substitute the word SPACE for the word GREEN and you'd think we were talking about the US space program when it was in its infancy during the 1950's.

My grandfather (who worked for NASA during the Apollo missions) used to say that the American public was avidly against funding US space exploration. That all changed when the Russians launched Sputnik and the US population became fearful.

We dropped endless money (the numbers are astounding) into the initial space programs. We had rockets blow up on live television, we had the entire crew of the Apollo 1 mission die in a fire while prepping for launch.

These failures and sacrifices were all part of a greater cause. Was the American public skeptical? Sure, I would be too. And the same can be said about the government's funding of "green" research in today's world. But unless you sacrifice in the present, what chance do we have of finding a clean/efficient energy substitute for oil and coal in the future? We're going to make mistakes, we're going to waste money. But look back in history and you can see a few examples where this same argument was made about programs that were thought to have been "science fiction" and turned out to be benchmarks in WORLD history.

My .02


trail

Oct 19, 10 7:27

Post #20 of 72 (3814 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I think we need to keep sending $700B/year to unstable foreign countries (and Canada). As we approach peak oil and skyrocketing energy costs it's not at all wise to expend capital on energy independence. We need to wait for the crisis to happen before we bother developing alternative infrastructure. The oil and coal industries know what's best for us, and we shouldn't consider alternatives. They have absolutely no conflicts of interest with planning for the long-term energy needs of the U.S.


chainpin

Oct 19, 10 7:34

Post #21 of 72 (3809 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [ScottyBoy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
In Reply To:
The green jobs fraud is just that, a full on fucking fraud.

There is no such thing as a green job, these are taxpayer subsidized jobs that detract from overall net job creation.


Funny... You can substitute the word SPACE for the word GREEN and you'd think we were talking about the US space program when it was in its infancy during the 1950's.

My grandfather (who worked for NASA during the Apollo missions) used to say that the American public was avidly against funding US space exploration. That all changed when the Russians launched Sputnik and the US population became fearful.

We dropped endless money (the numbers are astounding) into the initial space programs. We had rockets blow up on live television, we had the entire crew of the Apollo 1 mission die in a fire while prepping for launch.

These failures and sacrifices were all part of a greater cause. Was the American public skeptical? Sure, I would be too. And the same can be said about the government's funding of "green" research in today's world. But unless you sacrifice in the present, what chance do we have of finding a clean/efficient energy substitute for oil and coal in the future? We're going to make mistakes, we're going to waste money. But look back in history and you can see a few examples where this same argument was made about programs that were thought to have been "science fiction" and turned out to be benchmarks in WORLD history.

My .02


Those are all good points, but the fact remains that solar is not a viable alternative energy for the masses.

The only way it makes economic sense is if the government subsidizes it.

Spain's green energy failure is telling because even after subsidizing the hell out of it, the economics STILL don't work.

I'm all for investing in alternative energy projects as long as the scarce capital that is used in those projects comes from private sources and not taxpayers.

Only then will the incentives be aligned with the pace of technological advancement.

Perhaps someday the payback on solar will be short enough so that every home in the world can run off a small PV system, but until then, the technology is pretty much DOA.

And again, I'm talking about large scale adoption in the aggregate, on a global scale.

For the farmers in this newstory, they have learned a very valuable lesson about how government works and why the old adage, "if it sounds to good to be true, it probably is," rings so true when dealing with "red energy."

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06



rruff

Oct 19, 10 8:35

Post #22 of 72 (3785 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In my OP it is shown conclusively that Spain's green job utopia is now a fucking unmitigated financial nightmare.

Spain is an unmitigated financial nightmare. Germany isn't having problems with their "green energy"... wonder why?

But since the US is also an unmitigated financial nightmare, and considering the long-term investment required to make renewable energy cost attractive... it won't happen. It would be a great idea though, if we hadn't already marched to the edge of bankruptcy on Republican fiscal irresponsibility since 1980 (and Clinton just got lucky).



jackmott

Oct 19, 10 8:38

Post #23 of 72 (3781 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Why do you love pollution? =)

Nobody reasonable thinks green initiatives are a good idea economically (except perhaps very long term).

The very POINT is to give up some wealth so as not to pollution the air/ground/water

I'm speaking in very general terms I know nothing about spain or whether their plan is effective even on the green side of things


Meet Pro Triathlete Matty Reed at ATC - Sat May 25 - Captex!
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(This post was edited by jackmott on Oct 19, 10 8:43)


xtremrun

Oct 19, 10 9:39

Post #24 of 72 (3744 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
In Reply To:
Do you ever have an original thought? Everything you write follows the Republican Style Points to a T.


I take great delight in writing about the complete and utter failure of progressive/socialistic policy decisions made by economically illiterate politicians.


Well you must have been downright Orgasmic after the economic disaster of the previous Republican administration.


gbot

Oct 19, 10 10:25

Post #25 of 72 (3728 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [jackmott] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Why do you love pollution? =)

Nobody reasonable thinks green initiatives are a good idea economically (except perhaps very long term).

It's the long view that we should be thinking about. Do we risk total financial collapse for short-term financial gain? Or do we tighten belts a little now so that we can keep rolling along economically further down the line?


jackmott

Oct 19, 10 10:29

Post #26 of 72 (1978 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [gbot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

personally I think any green or conservation initiative is absolutely hopeless unless we cut population down by 50 to 75%

if we don't some sort of collapse will come about whether it be due to pollution because we burn every last ounce of coal and oil we can find

or economic because we try to feed 9 billion people with wind power and oxen

or environmental because we overfish the seas and over farm the land


Meet Pro Triathlete Matty Reed at ATC - Sat May 25 - Captex!
The newest tri shop in Austin - ATC 360
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter


trail

Oct 19, 10 10:36

Post #27 of 72 (1975 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [rruff] [In reply to] Quote | Reply



Spain is an unmitigated financial nightmare. Germany isn't having problems with their "green energy"... wonder why?

I'm still confused about all this EU debt crisis. Spain's public debt as % GDP is around 43%. That's positively austere compared to Germany's ~77%. Yet it's somehow become conventional wisdom that Germany is "fiscally conservative" and Spain is a PIG(S).







gbot

Oct 19, 10 11:46

Post #28 of 72 (1956 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [trail] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Welcome to the new world - fiscal conservatism = massive structural deficits. This is almost universal.


iO4

Oct 19, 10 12:54

Post #29 of 72 (1935 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [jackmott] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

personally I think any green or conservation initiative is absolutely hopeless unless we cut population down by 50 to 75%

I don't think you believe that. Nearly all environmental regulations for air and water have provided tremendous positive benefits and there is no utopia. There are countless examples. History shows that if you don't regulate, pollution goes untreated into the air and water. The market is so stupid in this regard that it will continue to pollute until a country literally kills its own people if they go outside. We tried that and had to put laws in place to combat it, eastern europe tried it and it didn't work...then China tried it and it didn't work. The market failed and continues to fail in this regard with 100% accuracy. The market is about short term profit and that is
it... look at the huge turnover in fortune 500 companies.





----
Don't hold back

(This post was edited by jO4 on Oct 19, 10 12:55)


gbot

Oct 19, 10 13:09

Post #30 of 72 (1930 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [jO4] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Well said.

I think one of the most hilarious (but sadly moronic) statements thrown around by AGW deniers is "remember when there was a big hole in the ozone and now it's almost gone!"

In reality the ozone hole and our response to it is a perfect example of how we can organize ourselves to successfully address environmental problems. We used solid science to identify the source of the problem (CFC's), legislated a response to it, and watched the problem reverse itself.

Not saying that all environmental issues can be attacked this successfully but it's a great demonstration of success given the right approach.


jackmott

Oct 19, 10 13:26

Post #31 of 72 (1928 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [jO4] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
[/b]I don't think you believe that.

I believe what I said, but I don't think you interpreted me accurately. I believe the environmental regulations can affect positive change.

But in the *long term* (25-50 years) we are headed for some disaster or another if we maintain or grow our current population. Many resources are starting to become geologically limited and no market or government ethos can change that. Water, energy, fertilizer, metals. Many of these things are starting to peak in their availability at about the same time.

interesting times ahead.


Meet Pro Triathlete Matty Reed at ATC - Sat May 25 - Captex!
The newest tri shop in Austin - ATC 360
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter


torrey

Oct 19, 10 14:50

Post #32 of 72 (1911 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [jackmott] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Fortunately, the population of most first and second world countries (the largest consumers) is expected to decline. The tricky part will be how to shift economic and social policies that relied upon population growth.


jackmott

Oct 19, 10 14:53

Post #33 of 72 (1910 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [torrey] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

yeah, hopefully the problem will sort itself out in a non Malthusian way.


In Reply To:
Fortunately, the population of most first and second world countries (the largest consumers) is expected to decline. The tricky part will be how to shift economic and social policies that relied upon population growth.


Meet Pro Triathlete Matty Reed at ATC - Sat May 25 - Captex!
The newest tri shop in Austin - ATC 360
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter


torrey

Oct 19, 10 15:19

Post #34 of 72 (1897 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [jackmott] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

It would be a first. It is fascinating to me that for the first time I know of populations are shrinking due to the collective will of the people.


JustinPB

Oct 19, 10 16:04

Post #35 of 72 (1888 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [jackmott] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

educate women. Then they have fewer kids. Pretty straightforward.


sidelined

Oct 19, 10 17:59

Post #36 of 72 (1875 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [jackmott] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Yes, This is the real problem that nobody wished to acknowledge. Not politically correct, I think.


jwbeuk

Oct 19, 10 20:26

Post #37 of 72 (1858 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [jackmott] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
personally I think any green or conservation initiative is absolutely hopeless unless we cut population down by 50 to 75%

Who gets to choose those that live, and those that die?


iO4

Oct 20, 10 0:10

Post #38 of 72 (1850 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [jpb] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

educate women. Then they have fewer kids. Pretty straightforward.

Bingo. Education and not living in a repressed society.

----
Don't hold back


JustinPB

Oct 20, 10 7:11

Post #39 of 72 (1834 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [jwbeuk] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

you don't have to choose. See my post.


trail

Oct 20, 10 7:18

Post #40 of 72 (1832 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [jpb] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

you don't have to choose. See my post.

Or watch this.


nhunter344

Oct 20, 10 8:01

Post #41 of 72 (1821 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [trail] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I always thought the Green initiatives were put forth as a way to lessen our impact on the environment?

Having a sound economy is great, but at what cost?

"Look honey, I know our kid has 3 arms and 3 types of cancer, but just look at how great the economy is doing!"


jwbeuk

Oct 20, 10 8:05

Post #42 of 72 (1821 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [jpb] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Actually to cut down the population, as stated 50% - 75% someone will have to die or is Jack simply saying we need to get this done in the next 100-200 years? I doubt the long delay is what Jack or any other AGW "True Believer" have in mind so my question stands, who gets to choose? Do we target specific countries, religions, the old, the young? I'm interested in who Jack thinks should be allowed to live or die.


chainpin

Nov 5, 10 7:13

Post #43 of 72 (1763 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US (UPDATED with Obama's Latest FAIL) [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I started this thread in May of this year.

At that time there was scant evidence that we were going to see the green energy sector implod ehere iin the US.

However, knowing that Obama is a socialist and an arrogant person that thinks he knows how to allocate capital better than the free market, one didn't need to be a rocket surgeon to understand that it was just a matter of time before the FAIL was evident for all to see.

Well, now that time is upon us.

My prediction was dead fucking nuts right as usual:

http://hotair.com/...ornia-in-green-jobs/

"The Obama administration made Solyndra, a solar-power manufacturing company, a symbol of its “green jobs†push in the Porkulus program. Barack Obama himself toured the factory, as did Barbara Boxer. Taxpayers ended up sinking $535 million into building Solyndra a new facility that promised to add jobs in the clean-energy sector. Instead, now that Solyndra has its new facility, it’s closing another older facility and will lay off dozens of employees and cancel the contracts for 150 more contract workers:"

Solyndra Inc., the high-flying solar panel maker once touted by President Barack Obama as a model for a green energy future, said Wednesday it has scuttled its factory expansion in Fremont, a move that will stop the company’s plans to hire 1,000 workers.

Solyndra said it will also close an existing factory in the East Bay. That will leave the company with one Fremont factory, a new plant visible from Interstate 880.

The moves mean that instead of having 2,000 workers in Fremont, Solyndra will cap its work force at 1,000, which is about the current level. Solyndra also will, over the next several weeks, eliminate 155 to 175 jobs in Fremont. That includes 135 contract employees and 20 to 40 full-time workers, said David Miller, a Solyndra spokesman."


Solar panel factories should never be built here in the US.

Even with Obama's hand out--read that as OUR $535M hand out--this company will not suceed here in the US.

I predict they will soon move ALL production overseas.

Thank you Obama for proving chainpin right once again, your actions are a mirror image of the complete and utter fucking policy disaster that Spain is going through.

Congrats again.

And to all you greenies go plant a fucking tree and stop voting for socialist assholes that think they know better how to allocate scarce capital.

And to the management of Solynda, congrats on taking advantage of a fucking idiot.

Free money, a new factory, and now lower costs as headcount is reduced--good management team if you ask me.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06



chainpin

Jan 18, 11 12:23

Post #44 of 72 (1619 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US (UPDATED with Obama's Latest FAIL) [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Having these threads archived here on ST is great--I love re-reading my masterpieces.

Check out this really cool story about the State of MA that just found out the green solar panel maker they backed is moving out of the state--isn't that something?

Looks like MA will be able to recoup a little coin from this clusterfuck:

Massachusetts acknowledged today it will likely only be able to recoup a fraction of the tens of millions of dollars it spent to help Evergreen Solar Inc. build a massive solar panel manufacturing plant in Devens.

The Marlborough company announced plans a week ago to shutter the plant by the end of March and eliminate 800 jobs in Devens. The state originally awarded Evergreen more than $58 million in grants, tax incentives, land and upgrades to Devens -- of which roughly $38 million has been spent so far.

Haha, what a fucking joke.

Green jobs are a fucking scam people, so get over it.

Obama and his green job bullshit is pathetic.

Look at this, more progressive capital destruction.

This company took the money and is now closing and the state is only going to get back about $3M from a $58M investment.

Go re-read this thread and tell me that I'm not 100% dead nuts right on this topic.

So for all you Obama green jobs ballwashers, time to take a chill pill and STFU about green jobs--they don't exist!

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06



MJuric

Jan 18, 11 12:36

Post #45 of 72 (1610 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US (UPDATED with Obama's Latest FAIL) [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

So for all you Obama green jobs ballwashers, time to take a chill pill and STFU about green jobs--they don't exist!

Green jobs DO exist, they are called engineering jobs, architecture jobs etc etc. Just about any project that is built considers energy cost. It's not the designers fault that energy costs aren't high enough to outweigh some of the other factors....of course that is why some want to implement policy that drives up energy costs...which is a different thread.

Furthermore I think one needs to question the entire idea of "Government subsidies" in creating jobs, not just "Green jobs".

~Matt



Al P Duez

Jan 18, 11 12:51

Post #46 of 72 (1601 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [trail] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

don't forget the corn lobby.


Al P Duez

Jan 18, 11 12:52

Post #47 of 72 (1599 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [rruff] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Because Germany's clean energy is mostly nuclear.


Quel

Jan 18, 11 13:14

Post #48 of 72 (1582 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US (UPDATED with Obama's Latest FAIL) [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Meh. The fossil fuel industry gets a boat load of subsidies that help it out. About 5-6 times more than for renewables (though that ends up less per joule since fossil fuels is a much larger energy segment than renewables). So ranting about renewables subsidies while ignoring fossil fuel subsidies is just ignoring a big part of the picture.

So I'm not exactly worried about spending money on renewable energy research and demonstrations, even if it's a short term failure. Renewables (or nuclear) is the future. In the long run, it will work out. You have to be a little sadistic to enjoy the failure of an industry that would provide so many benefits just so you can score meaningless points on slowtwitch.


chainpin

Jan 18, 11 13:56

Post #49 of 72 (1561 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US (UPDATED with Obama's Latest FAIL) [Quel] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Quel wrote:
Meh. The fossil fuel industry gets a boat load of subsidies that help it out. About 5-6 times more than for renewables (though that ends up less per joule since fossil fuels is a much larger energy segment than renewables). So ranting about renewables subsidies while ignoring fossil fuel subsidies is just ignoring a big part of the picture.

So I'm not exactly worried about spending money on renewable energy research and demonstrations, even if it's a short term failure. Renewables (or nuclear) is the future. In the long run, it will work out. You have to be a little sadistic to enjoy the failure of an industry that would provide so many benefits just so you can score meaningless points on slowtwitch.

I love solar.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...tring=solar;#2963045

I just don't like progressives promising all these new jobs from renewable energy investments.

It doesn't work.

And unless there is some quantum leap in panel fabrication, this technology will be nothing more than a hobby for the rich.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06



Tri N OC

Jan 18, 11 14:20

Post #50 of 72 (1545 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US (UPDATED with Obama's Latest FAIL) [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

And unless there is some quantum leap in panel fabrication, this technology will be nothing more than a hobby for the rich.

Another opportunity for PV Industries.


MOP_Mike

Jan 18, 11 15:03

Post #51 of 72 (1756 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US (UPDATED with Obama's Latest FAIL) [Tri N OC] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Tri N OC wrote:
And unless there is some quantum leap in panel fabrication, this technology will be nothing more than a hobby for the rich.

Another opportunity for PV Industries.

"PV" stands for Photo Voltaic, right? ;-)


"...Sometimes it's about getting the most speed out of the motor you have." -- Tom A.


rrutis

Jan 22, 11 12:09

Post #52 of 72 (1712 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US (UPDATED with Obama's Latest FAIL) [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

While I agree that solar PV is not ready for prime time, it has progressed a great deal in the last 5 years due to heavy investment.

Most if not all of the websites, blogs etc. that state XXX will never work be it Green Jobs, Green Energy, Nuclear Power or whatever assume that knowledge and levels of technology stay at their current state. Without investment everything stagnates, leading to the inability to provide power, water, light and other basic necessities to a growing world population. Another poster brought up the space program as an example of this type if investment, the Manhattan Project and even the Erie Canal are further examples of government investment and development of new technologies.

Sticking our heads in the sand and hoping that fossil fuel supplies remain stable just is not an option.

rich


chainpin

Aug 15, 11 14:57

Post #53 of 72 (1506 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US (UPDATED with Obama's Latest FAIL) [rrutis] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Well, more capital destruction from Obama, the great commnity organizer turned venture capitalist.


Love the headline:

Obama's Green Pet Dies

http://www.bostonherald.com/...998&pos=breaking

Evergreen Solar Inc., the Marlboro clean-energy company that received millions in state subsidies to build an ill-fated Bay State factory, has filed for bankrupt.

What a joke.




"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06



qqqq

Aug 15, 11 17:18

Post #54 of 72 (1468 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [cerveloguy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

"
But if you think free market capitalism would be better then you're even a much bigger fool. "


Please explain.

WTF Finance.com

"If occupy wall street was a stock I'd sell short. Is that too cynical?" -Tiga


Cheddar

Aug 15, 11 17:47

Post #55 of 72 (1454 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US (UPDATED with Obama's Latest FAIL) [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

No, It will be fantastic. The new policy will basically allow the business I'm putting together to undercut all the power companies.

Michael J. Pelechaty
Brewer, Black Box Brewing Co.

"Yeah, I was depressed for a little while, but then I remembered how awesome I am."


getcereal

Aug 15, 11 17:49

Post #56 of 72 (1454 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US (UPDATED with Obama's Latest FAIL) [chain pin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Deja vu!
http://gigaom.com/...ctory-layoff-dozens/
2010 Solyndra; Who received 535 million dollar federal loan (another BHO pet) had a similar fate.

There is a speech from Obama on You Tube- Bragging about what they're accomplishing, but it is so boring I didn't feel right linking to it.

Sad! No matter how much Obama feeds his Green Pet's they die.


chainpin

Aug 15, 11 18:06

Post #57 of 72 (1448 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US (UPDATED with Obama's Latest FAIL) [getcereal] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

getcereal wrote:
Deja vu!
http://gigaom.com/...ctory-layoff-dozens/
2010 Solyndra; Who received 535 million dollar federal loan (another BHO pet) had a similar fate.

There is a speech from Obama on You Tube- Bragging about what they're accomplishing, but it is so boring I didn't feel right linking to it.

Sad! No matter how much Obama feeds his Green Pet's they die.

Yep, its like the fucking chee-ah-pet I had in college that died after my drunk roommate pissed on in one night.

No private sector investor would have put a dime into these money pits and now we know why.

Everything Soetoro touches turns to shit.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06



getcereal

Aug 15, 11 20:07

Post #58 of 72 (1426 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US (UPDATED with Obama's Latest FAIL) [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

chainpin wrote:
getcereal wrote:
Deja vu!
http://gigaom.com/...ctory-layoff-dozens/
2010 Solyndra; Who received 535 million dollar federal loan (another BHO pet) had a similar fate.

There is a speech from Obama on You Tube- Bragging about what they're accomplishing, but it is so boring I didn't feel right linking to it.

Sad! No matter how much Obama feeds his Green Pet's they die.


Yep, its like the fucking chee-ah-pet I had in college that died after my drunk roommate pissed on in one night.

No private sector investor would have put a dime into these money pits and now we know why.

Everything Soetoro touches turns to shit.

Your roomate got drunk and pissed on it? Hahaha! How much did you drink that night?



getcereal

Aug 16, 11 14:48

Post #59 of 72 (1363 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US (UPDATED with Obama's Latest FAIL) [chain pin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Ouch, another 20 million down the tubes.
Sold as to create 2000 jobs, one year later they only manage to produce a office full of bureaucrats. Another wasteful government failure. They claim it was Biden's pet, but please we all know the true owner. Time to print some more money!
http://www.komonews.com/...local/127844048.html


chainpin

Aug 31, 11 12:57

Post #60 of 72 (1267 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US (UPDATED with Obama's Latest FAIL) [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

chainpin wrote:
Spain, that socialist bastion of waste, fraud and misallocated capital has finally come to grips with the fact that the country's "green initiatives" are a complete and utter fucking fiscal disaster.

But don't worry Barry wants to model the American Power Act on the green template used in........drum roll.....you guessed it.....SPAIN!!!

Yay for Barry!!!!

You can't make this shit up.

Oh, and BTW, Spain is now abandoning their "green" because of all the red.http://pajamasmedia.com/...ive/?singlepage=true[/quote[/url]]

Obama's use of Spain as a template for the US is proceeding as planned people so you better wake up.

Green jobs biatches!!!!

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06



chainpin

Sep 29, 11 11:14

Post #61 of 72 (1213 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US (UPDATED with Obama's Latest FAIL) [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

And the disaster I predicted is indeed here:

http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/...-737m-loan-gaurantee

Obama is still giving out money to these failed green concepts.

When will you moonbats ever fucking learn huh?

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06



Rodred

Sep 29, 11 11:58

Post #62 of 72 (1194 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US (UPDATED with Obama's Latest FAIL) [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

chainpin wrote:
And the disaster I predicted is indeed here:

http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/...-737m-loan-gaurantee

Obama is still giving out money to these failed green concepts.

When will you moonbats ever fucking learn huh?

I think this whole issue and the information that has been comin gout the last few days needs its own chainpintastic thread.

~
“The instinct to survive is human nature itself, and every aspect of our personalities derives from it. Anything that conflicts with the survival instinct acts sooner or later to eliminate the individual and thereby fails to show up in future generations.


chainpin

Sep 29, 11 12:07

Post #63 of 72 (1189 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US (UPDATED with Obama's Latest FAIL) [Rodred] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Rodred wrote:
chainpin wrote:
And the disaster I predicted is indeed here:

http://campaign2012.washingtonexaminer.com/...-737m-loan-gaurantee

Obama is still giving out money to these failed green concepts.

When will you moonbats ever fucking learn huh?


I think this whole issue and the information that has been comin gout the last few days needs its own chainpintastic thread.

When I started this thread so long ago, never in my wildest dreams could I have imagined that Obama's FAIL would be so epic and swift.

I'm feeling generous today, so I'll spare the moobats their skewering--for now.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06



chainpin

Sep 30, 11 11:03

Post #64 of 72 (1147 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

chainpin wrote:
I would like to keep this thread front in center since it is such a great example of the spectacular failure of progressive energy policy.

I have provided evidence that Spain's green economy is a failure.

But of course this is probably just an isolated economic disaster, right?

Wrong!

The green jobs fraud is just that, a full on fucking fraud.

There is no such thing as a green job, these are taxpayer subsidized jobs that detract from overall net job creation.

Please turn your attention to the Danish wind industry.

Here is the study link: http://www.cepos.dk/..._case_of_Denmark.pdf

"Denmark’s subsidies for wind power ended up having no net impact on job creation, but instead just shifted workers from unsubsidized to subsidized jobs, and at the cost of two average annual salaries per job."

"The Danish Wind industry counts 28,400 employees. This does not, however, constitute the net employment effect of the wind mill subsidy. In the long run, creating additional employment in one sector through subsidies will detract labor from other sectors, resulting in no increase in net employment but only in a shift from the non-subsidized sectors to the subsidized sector. Allowing for the theoretical possibility of wind employment alleviating possible regional pockets of high unemployment, a very optimistic ballpark estimate of net real job creation is 10% of total employment in the sector. In this case the subsidy per job created is 600,000-900,000 DKK per year ($90,000-140,000). This subsidy constitutes around 175-250% of the average pay per worker in the Danish manufacturing industry."

So, let's recap:

Spaniards lost 2.2 jobs for every 1 green job created since 2000.

A subsidized wind industry job in Denmark costs $140k per year.

Obama wants to model his energy policy after countries like the above.

His energy policy will be a fucking disaster, mark my words.

Solar and wind are really cool technologies, but they are not economically viable.

Sometime I'll post some pics of my small PV system and show you all how fucking cool it is, I'll also show you how much it cost and how fucking impractical it is even for the tiny project I'm using it for.

The bottom line is the only people benefiting from the push for green jobs are communists like Van Jones that exploit the sheeple who think this shit is going to change their lives.

What do the green energy policies of Denmark, Spain, and the US now have in common?

Prize to the best essay on this topic.

Oh, and what I wrote in red above is a little hint.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06



chainpin

Sep 30, 11 11:05

Post #65 of 72 (1148 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Replicated Here in the US(UPDATED with Obama's Latest FAIL) [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Quick Note: I thought it only proper to udate the title of this thread to reflect the latest Obama FAIL.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06



chainpin

Oct 3, 11 7:13

Post #66 of 72 (1112 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Replicated Here in the US(UPDATED with Obama's Latest FAIL) [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Obama even fucks up geothermal.

Did I say his green bullshit would be a disaster--oh, I meant a total fucking clusterfuck of epic and undeinable proportions unlike the world has ever seen times a googleplex.


http://www.nytimes.com/...3&pagewanted=all

WASHINGTON — In a remote desert spot in northern Nevada, there is a geothermal plant run by a politically connected clean energy start-up that has relied heavily on an Obama administration loan guarantee and is now facing financial turmoil.


That is code for this fucker is cash flow negative and about to go bankrupt.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06



chainpin

Oct 4, 11 9:55

Post #67 of 72 (1094 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Replicated Here in the US(UPDATED with Obama's Latest FAIL) [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

More FAIL:

President Barack Obama’s “green jobs” initiatives suffered another major blow late Monday, as the nonprofit National Renewable Energy Lab in Golden, Colorado, announced a plan to lay off roughly 10 percent of its staff through a voluntary buy-out plan.

According to the Denver Post, the lab plans to eliminate between 100 and 150 of its 1,350 jobs. The Obama administration supported the NREL in 2009 with roughly $200 million in stimulus grants. Energy Secretary Stephen Chu visited Golden in May 2009 to promote the NREL as a beneficiary of those funds.

You guys seeing a pattern here?

FAIL.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06



mrodaddy

Oct 4, 11 11:03

Post #68 of 72 (1086 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Replicated Here in the US(UPDATED with Obama's Latest FAIL) [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I totally acknowledge that, with current technology and fossil fuel pricing, "green" power alternatives are not economically viable alternatives unless subsidized at a cost that will, on a net basis, detract from other employment/capital allocation alternatives. But what I'd like to know is what you think the alternative is long-term. Do you think we should just keep using up fossil fuels, not advancing cleaner and more renewable technology and just deal with the issue once it reaches critical mass? Seems to me like it makes sense to pay a price to develop "green"/"renewable" energy alternatives for the long-term benefit of both the world and the nation. Now, that's not to say we're doing it the right way - but I'd love to hear why those goals aren't good ones to be pursuing. Pure, independent economic viability isn't the only factor to consider (unless you believe, as you might (but I don't), that economic viability will, necessarily, be sufficiently driven by other factors in a way that makes sure they will be dealt with in due course)...


chainpin

Mar 6, 12 7:37

Post #69 of 72 (765 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Replicated Here in the US (UPDATED with Obama's Geothermal FAIL) [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

chainpin: "Hey is it here yet?"

moonbat: "What chainpin, what the hell are you talking about?"

chainpin: "You know, the green energy disaster and destruction of scarce capital due to Obama and his energy policy...is it here yet...in the US?"

moonbat: "You are a nutjob, green energy is the future, you are an asshole."

chainpin: "But I predicted it would be an epic failure, and I just want to check and see if I was right."

moonbat: "You're a loon, Obama has taking green energy investment to a new level."

chainpin: "Yes moonbat, you are so right, we have reached a new level indeed."

moonbat: "Fuck off, I'm outa here, I'm going to drive away in my new Volt........ahhhh, help, shit, help, I'm burning, fire...fire...damn we have fire, my balls are on fire, my Volt has burst into flames...ahhhhhhhhhh!

http://abcnews.go.com/...il/story?id=15851653

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06



MJuric

Mar 6, 12 8:00

Post #70 of 72 (761 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Replicated Here in the US (UPDATED with Obama's Geothermal FAIL) [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

You know if they really wanted to have successful companies they would quite with all this loan guarantee stuff and just buy these companies and make them state owned entities. I mean how else can you limit bonus to execs unless you make them Federal Employees. They are clearly missing the answer on this one.

~Matt


chainpin

Oct 18, 12 17:33

Post #71 of 72 (442 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Replicated Here in the US (UPDATED with Obama's Kickback Scheme) [chainpin] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

chainpin wrote:
Spain, that socialist bastion of waste, fraud and misallocated capital has finally come to grips with the fact that the country's "green initiatives" are a complete and utter fucking fiscal disaster.

But don't worry Barry wants to model the American Power Act on the green template used in........drum roll.....you guessed it.....SPAIN!!!

Yay for Barry!!!!

You can't make this shit up.

Oh, and BTW, Spain is now abandoning their "green" because of all the red.

http://pajamasmedia.com/...ive/?singlepage=true

Just as I predicted back in 2010:

Fucking failure and so predictable too its ridiculous:

  1. Evergreen Solar ($24 million)*
  2. SpectraWatt ($500,000)*
  3. Solyndra ($535 million)*
  4. Beacon Power ($69 million)*
  5. AES’s subsidiary Eastern Energy ($17.1 million)
  6. Nevada Geothermal ($98.5 million)
  7. SunPower ($1.5 billion)
  8. First Solar ($1.46 billion)
  9. Babcock and Brown ($178 million)
  10. EnerDel’s subsidiary Ener1 ($118.5 million)*
  11. Amonix ($5.9 million)
  12. National Renewable Energy Lab ($200 million)
  13. Fisker Automotive ($528 million)
  14. Abound Solar ($374 million)*
  15. A123 Systems ($279 million)*
  16. Willard and Kelsey Solar Group ($6 million)
  17. Johnson Controls ($299 million)
  18. Schneider Electric ($86 million)
  19. Brightsource ($1.6 billion)
  20. ECOtality ($126.2 million)
  21. Raser Technologies ($33 million)*
  22. Energy Conversion Devices ($13.3 million)*
  23. Mountain Plaza, Inc. ($2 million)*
  24. Olsen’s Crop Service and Olsen’s Mills Acquisition Company ($10 million)*
  25. Range Fuels ($80 million)*
  26. Thompson River Power ($6.4 million)*
  27. Stirling Energy Systems ($7 million)*
  28. LSP Energy ($2.1 billion)*
  29. UniSolar ($100 million)*
  30. Azure Dynamics ($120 million)*
  31. GreenVolts ($500,000)
  32. Vestas ($50 million)
  33. LG Chem’s subsidiary Compact Power ($150 million)
  34. Nordic Windpower ($16 million)*
  35. Navistar ($10 million)
  36. Satcon ($3 million)*


"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06



hotman637

Oct 18, 12 18:19

Post #72 of 72 (420 views)
Re: Spain's Green Energy Disaster Coming Soon to the US [jwbeuk] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I think that the question gets down to is sex and money the root of all evil or the LACK of it? In my opinion we need to have MORE sex and money not less. The more sex and money the more economic activity the less sex and money the less economic activity!

 
 
 
 



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