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Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons

 

 


gholmes

Nov 9, 09 13:40

Post #1 of 397 (23958 views)
Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons Quote | Reply

I've uploaded my first video of the pelotons at ironman florida this less than a minute section is about 34 miles into the race.
This is from my helmet cam. I have video from the handheld olympus(you see in my hands in video) as well as one mounted under my front aero bar and a rear seat post mounted camera I hope to post later as well as some worse packs than this one later on as well as this same pack after I passed them going through the upcoming aid station then they repassed me again.
Been wanting to do this for years and worked out the kinks at ironman louisville with the cameras so enjoy even though you won't see this kind of blatant drafting at louisville.

I tried to find an appropriate sound track using youtubes audio swap but they didn't have "your cheatin heart" by hank williams.

More to come...(this was my 10th ironman florida so I've been there enough to see plenty of drafting.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbLbHfj7CNY


klehner

Nov 9, 09 13:43

Post #2 of 397 (23936 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

That is priceless. So many violations, one doesn't know where to start. I'm so glad I only do shorter races that are devoid of such behavior

Thanks!
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SeasonsChange

Nov 9, 09 13:43

Post #3 of 397 (23935 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

thats why im never doing imfl


Dynamic Du

Nov 9, 09 13:46

Post #4 of 397 (23898 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
I've uploaded my first video of the pelotons at ironman florida this less than a minute section is about 34 miles into the race.
This is from my helmet cam. I have video from the handheld olympus(you see in my hands in video) as well as one mounted under my front aero bar and a rear seat post mounted camera I hope to post later as well as some worse packs than this one later on as well as this same pack after I passed them going through the upcoming aid station then they repassed me again.
Been wanting to do this for years and worked out the kinks at ironman louisville with the cameras so enjoy even though you won't see this kind of blatant drafting at louisville.

I tried to find an appropriate sound track using youtubes audio swap but they didn't have "your cheatin heart" by hank williams.

More to come...(this was my 10th ironman florida so I've been there enough to see plenty of drafting.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbLbHfj7CNY

Cool footage - but even cooler music!!!!

What a joke that is - but the organisors wouldn't give two hoots - it's all about cash cash cash to them and WTC.

It just looks like a dangerous place to be.


Pete

Nov 9, 09 13:47

Post #5 of 397 (23885 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Oh wow, this is gold. Lets play "spot the Slowtwitcher!"

Are you Canadian? If so you should get a Queen's birthday honour for services to the sport :)


blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
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justgeorge

Nov 9, 09 13:47

Post #6 of 397 (23880 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I liked all the guys just sitting up and coasting. Sure helps improve your run that way!

George


trvfsub2

Nov 9, 09 13:48

Post #7 of 397 (23864 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

that is awesome, that pack was soooooooo huge they were even crossing the centre line as well..................


waitebe

Nov 9, 09 13:49

Post #8 of 397 (23846 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Wow! That is sad.
Did anyone notice your cameras and say anything? Like "Please don't tell all my Slowtwitch friends I am one of THOSE guys?"
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psycholist

Nov 9, 09 13:55

Post #9 of 397 (23783 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

At Beach2Battleship, after the first 5 miles of passing a few folks, I saw exactly two riders for the remaining 107 miles. What a contrast.

At IMFL, can it be avoided (I'm sure some of the blatant stuff can, but you get my drift) when you throw 3,000 people on a course in a short time span? I'm just asking. I haven't been there, so I don't know.


ladnday

Nov 9, 09 13:56

Post #10 of 397 (23779 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I am almost certain I saw you on the course - black aero helmet with cam attached to right side? If so, you passed me on the first 7 mile stretch of the ride, so I can't be one of the guilty :)

Anyhow, great footage. Being that this was collected out on Hwy 20 (30+ miles into the race, into the headwind) it represents a good sampling what I saw occurring as well. None of this "it was real congested," "I couldn't 'not' draft," etc... It was 30 miles into the ride. Plenty of time to stretch things out.

As mentioned in another thread, the first penalty tent was full, but that was it. The other tents were EMPTY when I rode by. When I saw the first few peletons/pace lines go by and one small group get carded (on Hwy 79) I had faith that maybe the playing field was going to be leveled for the day. Nope, just for the first 35 miles...


paul_tx

Nov 9, 09 13:56

Post #11 of 397 (23775 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

 Did you knock anyone down? You look pretty unsteady out there.


(This post was edited by paul_tx on Nov 9, 09 13:59)


gholmes

Nov 9, 09 13:56

Post #12 of 397 (23775 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [waitebe] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Wow! That is sad.
Did anyone notice your cameras and say anything? Like "Please don't tell all my Slowtwitch friends I am one of THOSE guys?"
I had folks turn and smile for camera. Say hey is that a camera. I said yep and I just got video of you drafting..
I remember one girl much later in a smaller pack on 388 right after we turned from 77 to go west in a pack. "hey just another saturday group ride" no remorse whatsoever.
I've got more just got to get time to edit and post.

Wait until you see the rear camera shot.

I have some swim video as well first turn bouy crowd. Wetsuit strippers.etc from myhandheld waterproof.
I've been working on getting this last few years.

I actually called out some of the numbers on the audio track but I'm not quite ready to let that in the open and some of the things I was saying as they went by were well lets just say nice...


Punch

Nov 9, 09 13:57

Post #13 of 397 (23771 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [waitebe] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Looks like a wack group ride. lol


waitebe

Nov 9, 09 13:58

Post #14 of 397 (23756 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I can't wait to see the other videos...

You know if the bib numbers go public on slowtwitch, we will have their home addresses and wife's SSN on this thread in less than 10 minutes...a la Finman.
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gholmes

Nov 9, 09 14:01

Post #15 of 397 (23719 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [ladnday] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
I am almost certain I saw you on the course - black aero helmet with cam attached to right side? If so, you passed me on the first 7 mile stretch of the ride, so I can't be one of the guilty :)

Anyhow, great footage. Being that this was collected out on Hwy 20 (30+ miles into the race, into the headwind) it represents a good sampling what I saw occurring as well. None of this "it was real congested," "I couldn't 'not' draft," etc... It was 30 miles into the ride. Plenty of time to stretch things out.

As mentioned in another thread, the first penalty tent was full, but that was it. The other tents were EMPTY when I rode by. When I saw the first few peletons/pace lines go by and one small group get carded (on Hwy 79) I had faith that maybe the playing field was going to be leveled for the day. Nope, just for the first 35 miles...
I never saw a draft marshal at least that i could tell saw couple of motorcycles saying race support.
Early on I was starting to think hmmm maybe won't see the packs this year because last year there were some on 79 in first 10 miles(I don't expect things to break up before that on front beach road but the tail wind helped this year) But then they didn't dissapoint I looked in my mirror and sure enough here they came so I flipped on the helmet camera. My aerobar cameras were on all the time as was the rear(at least first 2 hours worth due to battery life).
Yes this is on 20 thats where every year this happens like I said my 10th ironman florida and I've witnessed this every year theres always(at least where I am)
2 to 3 packs with lots of empty space in between..
I passed these guys a little later as they clogged up at an aid station and then they passed me again I'll post that next still in a group.
Have some of the short out and back with a smaller group but much tighter.


snoots

Nov 9, 09 14:02

Post #16 of 397 (23694 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Med Tent Man] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Seriously, I only spotted 3 things that I would consider drafting 'violations' if I were mashalling; the rest are all people who were potentially just as frustrated by the congestion as the next guy.

When I did IMFL in 2007, there were instances where I either came up an a pack (I rode 5:34) or was overtaken. I sat up in each case, with one hand on the bar and the other on my hip, or taking a drink or eating or something; I did not INTEND to draft, therefore did not tuck in behind in aero, I pulled the parachute... but I wasn't going to slam on the brakes, either, due to the congestion on the course. I saw MC marshalls, shook my head, one even gave me a little finger salute...

It does come down to what many are saying - too many people on too little road at the same time, but the marshalls have to consider INTENT to properly enforce a clean race, IMO...


gholmes

Nov 9, 09 14:12

Post #17 of 397 (23603 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [snoots] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Seriously, I only spotted 3 things that I would consider drafting 'violations' if I were mashalling; the rest are all people who were potentially just as frustrated by the congestion as the next guy.

When I did IMFL in 2007, there were instances where I either came up an a pack (I rode 5:34) or was overtaken. I sat up in each case, with one hand on the bar and the other on my hip, or taking a drink or eating or something; I did not INTEND to draft, therefore did not tuck in behind in aero, I pulled the parachute... but I wasn't going to slam on the brakes, either, due to the congestion on the course. I saw MC marshalls, shook my head, one even gave me a little finger salute...

It does come down to what many are saying - too many people on too little road at the same time, but the marshalls have to consider INTENT to properly enforce a clean race, IMO...
Thats just a snippit. don't give me that crap they just got caught up and were frustrated in the congestion.
Drafting,position violations,blocking its all there..
I have rear camera view and hand held which will show more. These guys were not frustrated they weren't moving they were coasting setting up relaxing no one made any effort to go past them or drop back. Yes there are a couple of guys who were up front who were not drafting and one or two moved through everyone but these folks were not frustrated.
about a minute after this they all came to an aid station and I passed them all pushed a little bit to get further away but as soon as they got through they caught back up with me(same people almost in same position) then they went by again. I'll post that next. Trust me I know the difference in drafting I've been experiencing this for 10 years at ironman florida.. this was my 29th ironman race. I spent most of the year finding the right cameras and testing them in races just for this race.


(This post was edited by gholmes on Nov 9, 09 14:14)


redtdi

Nov 9, 09 14:15

Post #18 of 397 (23579 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
I've uploaded my first video of the pelotons at ironman florida this less than a minute section is about 34 miles into the race.
This is from my helmet cam. I have video from the handheld olympus(you see in my hands in video) as well as one mounted under my front aero bar and a rear seat post mounted camera I hope to post later as well as some worse packs than this one later on as well as this same pack after I passed them going through the upcoming aid station then they repassed me again.
Been wanting to do this for years and worked out the kinks at ironman louisville with the cameras so enjoy even though you won't see this kind of blatant drafting at louisville.

I tried to find an appropriate sound track using youtubes audio swap but they didn't have "your cheatin heart" by hank williams.

More to come...(this was my 10th ironman florida so I've been there enough to see plenty of drafting.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbLbHfj7CNY

Best video ever! I am shocked even though i've heard about the drafting for a long time. Soft pedaling and not in aero...who can see numbers and shame these cheaters publicly!?

"the trick is to keep losing weight until your friends and family ask you if you've been sick. then you know you're within 10 pounds. if they start whispering to each other, wondering if you've got cancer or aids, you're within 5. when they actually do an intervention, you're at race weight." - Slowman


h2ofun

Nov 9, 09 14:16

Post #19 of 397 (23565 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Great video, what equipment did you use to take.

Man, if that is how many IM's are, not thanks. A lot of them seem to just be out for a weekend recovery ride. Guess this is why I love the shorter stuff,
it is pedal to the medal the entire race!!!

Dave
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gbot

Nov 9, 09 14:17

Post #20 of 397 (23559 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I saw a couple pelotons WAY worse than that at IMC.


bshanberg

Nov 9, 09 14:18

Post #21 of 397 (23552 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

They are just about all wearing aero helments. Which means there are going to be lots so STer's in there. (Because ST is just about the only place people drink the aero helment koolaid for 112 mile rides.)


campled

Nov 9, 09 14:21

Post #22 of 397 (23524 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Great shots.
Please share the rest.
Also show us the set-up of your helmet or bike with the cams.
Thanks for sharing,


eganski

Nov 9, 09 14:25

Post #23 of 397 (23488 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Did you get any shots of the lead Age Groupers on the out-and-back? You know, the guys that go 9:10 in Florida with 65 minute swims and then get their asses handed to them in Kona? I'd enjoy that.
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Tricky Dick

Nov 9, 09 14:26

Post #24 of 397 (23474 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I am not too sure what is more douchey. The drafting happening or you taking your Iphone and plethora of cameras with you while "racing".


snoots

Nov 9, 09 14:27

Post #25 of 397 (23470 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I said 'potentially' caught up and frustrated...in my experience, it happens too. And from a MC it's hard to tell the difference. Blocking, maybe, but if you're overtaking, and the guy doesn't fall back, then where are you going to go? They're already 3 abreast, the only way to overtake further is to cross the centre line, also a no-no...

IMO, more consideration has to be given to INTENT - if you're head down, grinding in a pack to KC (i.e. cheating), it needs to be treated differently than if you're just benefiting from an overcrowded course. What would you say is the solution to what you see? They can't all drop back... I never said that penalties didn't need to be stiffer, nor that we didn't need more marshals...

If there is more video to watch, I'll watch it - great footage BTW...


leggett24

Nov 9, 09 14:32

Post #26 of 397 (13453 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Tricky Dick] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
I am not too sure what is more douchey. The drafting happening or you taking your Iphone and plethora of cameras with you while "racing".

How is it douchey to provide some real evidence better than word of mouth that there are real drafting problems at some of these races?


BDoughtie

Nov 9, 09 14:34

Post #27 of 397 (13443 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [leggett24] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I think TD must of been caught in the video! :)
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gholmes

Nov 9, 09 14:35

Post #28 of 397 (13439 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Tricky Dick] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
I am not too sure what is more douchey. The drafting happening or you taking your Iphone and plethora of cameras with you while "racing".
Two words.. BITE ME..
What iphone? I had a helmet camera mounted to my helmet all I had to do is flick a switch. Then I had an aero bar mounted camera running full time and one on my seat post.
If you think that s doucey you can kiss my (well you know what part of body I'm talking about)
Other than say some aerodynamic drag they had very little affect on my race or my handling ability. I did have my backup olympia waterproof camera which was held by a long string around my neck tucked into my desoto suit which you can see in the video.

I'm not some rookie here.. I've done 29 ironman races, done hawaii 7 times this was my 10th florida and I'm 54 years old so if thats douchy so beit I old enough I couldn't give a F....K anyway
I just got fed up with the drafting at florida these past 10 years I finally decided to whats the quote "if there aren't pics it didn't happen" well heres video and more than 20 seconds.


Tricky Dick

Nov 9, 09 14:38

Post #29 of 397 (13416 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [leggett24] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

It's douchey because we all know that at Florida there is drafting. "we" as in the athletes, directors, promoters, sponsors et al. Taking an Iphone, and attaching cameras all over your bike to capture the drafting that "we" all know is happening is ridiculous. Don't race Florida and the race directors and promoters will take notice. But while they are constantly making money by continuously selling the event full, there will be no changes. Stop racing there and they will take notice. You don't really believe that the WTC doesn't know that there is drafting in Florida do you?

It is also douchey because the only reason the douche did the race was to get evidence of drafting. Save your entry for someone who wants to race. Make videos from the sidelines.


AlexG

Nov 9, 09 14:38

Post #30 of 397 (13416 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

As bad as that is, I wish the pack I was stuck in was that broken up. I wouldnt have been that upset.


gholmes

Nov 9, 09 14:39

Post #31 of 397 (13407 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [psycholist] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
At Beach2Battleship, after the first 5 miles of passing a few folks, I saw exactly two riders for the remaining 107 miles. What a contrast.

At IMFL, can it be avoided (I'm sure some of the blatant stuff can, but you get my drift) when you throw 3,000 people on a course in a short time span? I'm just asking. I haven't been there, so I don't know.
yes it can be avoided.. I've done 10 of them. I avoided it and I have video to back it up. Granted first 5 to 10 miles probably not.
BUT these guys there were gaps in front and in the rear I was by myself alot then bam here comes a pack its been like this every time I've done this race.
BUT if the riders don't make any attempt what ya going to do. I've sacraficed my race sometimes to avoid drafting trying to out ride them then pass them multiple times but they always speed up when you go by thinking about another free ride.
Granted 2800 people starting is just asking for trouble and with the head wind we had.
Louisville it was almost non existant at least the packs with the time trial start. Now the hill at 8 miles in the bike was a bit crowded but after that there were no packs that I saw at louisville.


eganski

Nov 9, 09 14:41

Post #32 of 397 (13392 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [AlexG] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Watching the video 2 things are clear---the drafting is bad, and you make the decision to be stuck in it or not. This Zapruder Holmes video is proof that you don't actually have to draft, you can let the pack go as he did.

But sure, you're upset. I believe you.
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gholmes

Nov 9, 09 14:45

Post #33 of 397 (13358 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [paul_tx] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Did you knock anyone down? You look pretty unsteady out there.
BS... thats helmet cam I was turning my head to get the picture I was steady. Note I was riding to the far right on the bike path I stayed there when they passed.
My bike handling skills were not in question. When I get the other rear mount and aero bar mount cameras synched I'll synch with my gps data so you can get the speed we were going.
Might not work as well as my louisville video's because I had my front camera lock up at around 10 miles and had to power off and back on so I can't sync gps data with the bike start will
have to use the turn matt or one of the turns to get it all up.. Quicktime lets you create a text file and overlay that text on video at certain time points. I wrote a program to take my tcx file
from garmin output a video text file with each trackpoint with speed,heartrate,distance and then I overlay that on the video but it takes some time and I have to find sync points in the video
plus the gps lags a few seconds on the data but hopefully can get some of it to show the speeds.


Yknot

Nov 9, 09 14:46

Post #34 of 397 (13343 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [snoots] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
I said 'potentially' caught up and frustrated...in my experience, it happens too. And from a MC it's hard to tell the difference. Blocking, maybe, but if you're overtaking, and the guy doesn't fall back, then where are you going to go? They're already 3 abreast, the only way to overtake further is to cross the centre line, also a no-no...

IMO, more consideration has to be given to INTENT - if you're head down, grinding in a pack to KC (i.e. cheating), it needs to be treated differently than if you're just benefiting from an overcrowded course. What would you say is the solution to what you see? They can't all drop back... I never said that penalties didn't need to be stiffer, nor that we didn't need more marshals...

If there is more video to watch, I'll watch it - great footage BTW...

This is a pretty piss-poor excuse. Drafting in triathlon is a penalty, like holding in football. The question is not why did it happen, what was the intent. It is simply, did it happen? If the answer is yes, then the penalty is called.
Certainly there are times that not drafting can be difficult (I am not saying this is or isn't one of them) but in the end it is your responsibility to not do it. It is the draft marshalls' responsibility to call you on it if you do it.


bshanberg

Nov 9, 09 14:48

Post #35 of 397 (13321 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
In Reply To:


I just got fed up with the drafting at florida these past 10 years I finally decided to whats the quote "if there aren't pics it didn't happen" well heres video and more than 20 seconds.
I like the videos. Keep posting them.
But, in regards to the statement above... Everyone knows there is drafting in triathlon. And its not just a flat course issue. But, the racing reality is, if the course marshals didn't catch them, it didn't happen... That's the reality. Video is just video. But, damn good entertainment.

We need to stop making this issue less about venues and more about what the sanctioning body of triathlon will do to address the issue across all triathlons.

Heck, you can see drafting in the Computrainer Real Course Videos on all the courses.

I can't wait to hear the reports from the 120 mile draft-fest at Abu Dhabi. The distances in that race are a drafters dream event. Again, our sport is defective. We need the governance to address the issue.


Sam Apoc

Nov 9, 09 14:49

Post #36 of 397 (13317 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

is it legal to carry a camera with you on the bike?

That is some bad cheating. I've never seen anything like that.

Also, I tried to get a slot for IMFL and missed out! So sad.


de-tri-mental

Nov 9, 09 14:49

Post #37 of 397 (13312 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Great shots.

You actually happened to catch some footage of a guy from my club who always braggs about his IM bike splits and insists that he always stays clean and never, ever drafts.

What a low life hypocrite!

Triathlon really has become the cess pool for scumbags.
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gholmes

Nov 9, 09 14:51

Post #38 of 397 (13294 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [snoots] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
I said 'potentially' caught up and frustrated...in my experience, it happens too. And from a MC it's hard to tell the difference. Blocking, maybe, but if you're overtaking, and the guy doesn't fall back, then where are you going to go? They're already 3 abreast, the only way to overtake further is to cross the centre line, also a no-no...

IMO, more consideration has to be given to INTENT - if you're head down, grinding in a pack to KC (i.e. cheating), it needs to be treated differently than if you're just benefiting from an overcrowded course. What would you say is the solution to what you see? They can't all drop back... I never said that penalties didn't need to be stiffer, nor that we didn't need more marshals...

If there is more video to watch, I'll watch it - great footage BTW...
Like I said these guys weren't even making an effort.. Now I will say if you watch the first few guys were passing the other they were fine then I think one more was making effort and then you had some riders in the rear trying to stay back out of the mess. BUT once I got this footage and did my dropping back I passed them just fine.. This was about 50 seconds of video.


gholmes

Nov 9, 09 14:56

Post #39 of 397 (13256 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Tricky Dick] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
It's douchey because we all know that at Florida there is drafting. "we" as in the athletes, directors, promoters, sponsors et al. Taking an Iphone, and attaching cameras all over your bike to capture the drafting that "we" all know is happening is ridiculous. Don't race Florida and the race directors and promoters will take notice. But while they are constantly making money by continuously selling the event full, there will be no changes. Stop racing there and they will take notice. You don't really believe that the WTC doesn't know that there is drafting in Florida do you?

It is also douchey because the only reason the douche did the race was to get evidence of drafting. Save your entry for someone who wants to race. Make videos from the sidelines.
READ MY LIPS You dumb MF like I said that wasn't an iphone thats against the rules no communication equipment.. It was a helmet cam It took no effort other than turn the damn cameras on.
I didn't do the race just to get evidence... I've done every florida except 2006. I did the race because I like doing ironman races I have friends with a beach house(the one with elvis and the girls all dressed up in costumes at mile 1) I do it every year with friends.. I just wanted to finally show some video of drafting. Your such a Douch bag

My post race hormones are acting up for sure.


summitt

Nov 9, 09 14:59

Post #40 of 397 (13238 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

AWESOME!

As for the camera, they make some great helmet cams that I've seen motocross riders wear. I think you can get HD quality for up to 3 hours before the batteries go.

When are they going to wake up and have some type of wave format, especially on flat courses.

You've done your share of IMs and I'm close to your age and have done 14 IMs starting in the mid 90's. There has to be a solution. Waves, penalties, smaller fields, etc. It's been discussed but I haven't been back to IMFL since 2001 and have no plans of ever racing there again.

Can't wait to see the rest. I would send a copy to the WTC and the race director.


gholmes

Nov 9, 09 14:59

Post #41 of 397 (13232 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [:D] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
is it legal to carry a camera with you on the bike?

That is some bad cheating. I've never seen anything like that.

Also, I tried to get a slot for IMFL and missed out! So sad.
I've been carrying a camera for the last 4 years. First helmet camera. Probably will be illegal next year which is why I didn't post any louisville video which was my first ironman test run with bike mounted video cameras.


de-tri-mental

Nov 9, 09 15:03

Post #42 of 397 (13209 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Tricky Dick] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

It is time that douches who think they can draft and get away with it get exposed.

It is time that douches who take podium spots and IMH spots away from people who race honest and clean get wheeded out.

It is time for you to come out and admit that you are in the vid too.
___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus


leggett24

Nov 9, 09 15:07

Post #43 of 397 (13191 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Tricky Dick] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

We know and they know but as long as it's just talk they can deny and deny.
He paid his entry, he raced clean can you really complain?


snoots

Nov 9, 09 15:08

Post #44 of 397 (13178 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Yknot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Drafting is a penalty, yes. But I liken it more to hockey: falling over a stick does not a tripping penalty make. It is your responsibility to make every effort to avoid drafting, to not be caught in a drafting situation. I never said that we shouldn't have more marshals, nor that drafting shouldn't be a penalty, just that there needs to be room for interpretation - which, IMO, is what does happen, WHEN marshals spot drafting. Not everyone caught in a pack is happy about being there, or trying to draft, regardless of whether or not they get some advantage from it...


de-tri-mental

Nov 9, 09 15:12

Post #45 of 397 (13158 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [snoots] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Priceless!
___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus


devashish_paul

Nov 9, 09 15:13

Post #46 of 397 (13148 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Awesome job. It's about time this behavior is recorded and exposed. Nice work.


stal

Nov 9, 09 15:15

Post #47 of 397 (13134 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

what cameras did you use? I've wanted to get a handlebar cam to catch vehicular assaults for a long time.


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tetsuoni

Nov 9, 09 15:16

Post #48 of 397 (13123 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thank you for your service to the sport.
2015 American Zofingen Du is May 17.
R.I.P. Chris Gleason


djciii

Nov 9, 09 15:18

Post #49 of 397 (13106 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

During the first few seconds of the clip I thought you were the biggest winer ever...and then it started...that is unbelievable...I bet there won't be drafting next year.
----------------------------------------------------
Don't let great ambitions overshadow small successes
We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.
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psychosyd

Nov 9, 09 15:19

Post #50 of 397 (13098 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

hmm. Post pics of drafters? could be fun! Although you might cut the number of people willing to populate slowtwitch by a lot!

Thanks for the video, btw. Been there seen that. Blew myself up a bit last year trying to stay out of the packs. It can be avoided. No question about it.

Can't wait to see the rear shots! Actually hoping to see a few people that I know had way to fast bike splits.

canadiantriathlete.blogspot.com
NCCP certified Comp| CTC coaching and PT coming soon!


Bmanners

Nov 9, 09 15:22

Post #51 of 397 (12631 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [snoots] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Never did a IM tried to get into IMFL could not. done some shorter races an I never drafted and it is against the rules so I do not do it. That being said legalize it already. Either that or make a stay behind by three foot rule in the swim and run. Nice video and music.
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desert dude

Nov 9, 09 15:22

Post #52 of 397 (12630 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [tetsuoni] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

service? What service? He bitched and whined (no offense) about the drafting, he admits to doing the race every year, which in effect is giving the nod to the status quo and reinforcing the business model for that race.

You want service? Instead of facilitating the problem, become a draft marshal. Write an email to the RD, USAT, WTC complaining about what is going on @ the race. Send in the footage showing how unsafe it is. That would be service. Bitching about and posting video over how butt sore you are about the drafting isn't a service.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching :: Twitter @accelerate3 :: Like us on Facebook


(This post was edited by desert dude on Nov 9, 09 15:23)


hgrong

Nov 9, 09 15:24

Post #53 of 397 (12619 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [snoots] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Drafting is a penalty, yes. But I liken it more to hockey: falling over a stick does not a tripping penalty make. It is your responsibility to make every effort to avoid drafting, to not be caught in a drafting situation. I never said that we shouldn't have more marshals, nor that drafting shouldn't be a penalty, just that there needs to be room for interpretation - which, IMO, is what does happen, WHEN marshals spot drafting. Not everyone caught in a pack is happy about being there, or trying to draft, regardless of whether or not they get some advantage from it...

The rules disagree with you.

Drafting is illegal under the rules whether intentional or not.


Greggor

Nov 9, 09 15:25

Post #54 of 397 (12615 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Priceless, can you really blame anyone. I could not see much down the firoad, but imagine it was crowded too. What do you do just stop by the side of the road? I think it is a matter of blame the course, you want fast times go to Florida! You want differentiation of field and perhaps legit Kona qualifiers go to perhaps Lake Placid?


Sam Apoc

Nov 9, 09 15:28

Post #55 of 397 (12591 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Greggor] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

and either way, good luck getting in if you aren't a pro or haven't volunteered on top of your expensive race entry fee.


gralden

Nov 9, 09 15:29

Post #56 of 397 (12589 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I think WOW pretty much says it all, thanks for posting.

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oldandslow

Nov 9, 09 15:32

Post #57 of 397 (12568 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thank you very much for this video. Truly awesome....


TriHanrahan

Nov 9, 09 15:34

Post #58 of 397 (12564 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [desert dude] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Boy I disagree. I think he is doing a service as more information is always better (if uncomfortable).


tetsuoni

Nov 9, 09 15:34

Post #59 of 397 (12561 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [desert dude] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

The video is a service. I was unaware of bitching and whining. What are you jumping on me for? I've been a draft marshal and am a RD who creates races that discourage drafting. I've written elsewhere on ST to vote with your wallet. I'll never race IM Fla or Clermont. But a post on ST with actual video footage of draft packs is a service.
2015 American Zofingen Du is May 17.
R.I.P. Chris Gleason


LoriT

Nov 9, 09 15:35

Post #60 of 397 (12555 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Really cool footage and idea.

We all hear about how bad IMFL is, but this shows it for sure. With all due respect to one of your critics, I am pretty sure that the race director and governing body already knows about this little problem. Your efforts will only shed public light on it, with video evidence.


h2ofun

Nov 9, 09 15:42

Post #61 of 397 (12503 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [tetsuoni] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

If I am the RD, and my race fills up every year, why would I change anything? What successful business changes their model because a FEW people complain?

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
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konaexpress

Nov 9, 09 15:47

Post #62 of 397 (12469 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Nice graphic video gholmes. I like you am an IM vet of 23 IMs. People that are slamming you on this thread are doing it for a reason. Anyone who plays by the rules would not slam you for recording blatant cheaters. Some have said this is why they will never do IMFlorida. It doesn't have to be that way. I have done IMFlorida 3 times and have chosen not to get involved in the cheating. The last time I did the race was in 2007. I was on the bike going hard and steady but noticed no one had passed me for a while (I am not that strong of a rider so was wondering what was going on). I sat up in my bars, turned around and I kid you not there was a pack of 30-40 riders right on my ass. I just kept up on my bars, let the pack go (I wasn't going to do the work for them) and continued to ride myself. Don't let other people's cheating ruin your ride, ride with integrity.
Barry Dmitruk
Sponsored by: Orleans Cycles https://www.facebook.com/...cles/177797362235573
IM Lake Placid 2014
Mont Tremblant 70.3 2014


oldandslow

Nov 9, 09 15:48

Post #63 of 397 (12460 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

There are lots of simple ways to clean up IMFL. Strip the race of all of its Kona slots until it solves the drafting problem. Problem solved ;).


Triburger

Nov 9, 09 15:49

Post #64 of 397 (12455 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

NICE! Keep em coming.

It seems like an easy solution would be to make two days of racing and split the field in half, with time-trial swim starts. If they already have all the equipment set up for one day, why not just leave it there for the next?

IMFLA seems like a nice race course, but damn that is absurd. Why spend $$ on a P4, Zipps, aerolhelmet, and comp socks if you can draft just the same on a trek 1000?


TriHanrahan

Nov 9, 09 15:49

Post #65 of 397 (12450 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

It happens often, dairies in my state had to clean up their 'poop' better because of local complaints though their sales never changed. Seems like every single gov't legislation is controlled or at least severely modified by vocal small groups. Change can happen it's just with out financial pressure sometimes it's a little harder.


tetsuoni

Nov 9, 09 15:53

Post #66 of 397 (12438 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I agree. If we all voted with our wallets, WTC would either change or perish. They're thriving. I don't blame them; I blame the lemmings. WTC should charge $2000 per race.
2015 American Zofingen Du is May 17.
R.I.P. Chris Gleason


sas

Nov 9, 09 15:53

Post #67 of 397 (12435 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Sweet vid. What type of camera did you use to capture that?


kemp

Nov 9, 09 15:56

Post #68 of 397 (12410 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I love the guy that keeps looking back at the cameraman. You can almost hear his saying "WTF? Is he FILMING me? How do I make myself look to be legal...."
---
Team Triabetes


psycholist

Nov 9, 09 15:57

Post #69 of 397 (12404 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [konaexpress] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I sat up in my bars, turned around and I kid you not there was a pack of 30-40 riders right on my ass. I just kept up on my bars, let the pack go (I wasn't going to do the work for them) and continued to ride myself.

But suppose you were in the midst of being passed by a pack of these riders when, along comes a draft marshal or gholmes with his camera? What then? There you are ... a draft cheat. How long did it take you to "let the pack go" and how did that work? As someone else asked, did you stop at the side of the road? I'm not trying to be a wise ass. I've never done a race like that and drafting has not been a problem (that I've witnessed) at the smaller races I've done (though blocking always is). When I hear the numbers at IMFL, I just can't envision how, for example, a slower swimmer who is a stronger cyclist wouldn't have a nightmare of a time avoiding getting caught up in those situations where they're frustrated trying to work through a clog.

Not excusing. Just asking.


damn lucky

Nov 9, 09 15:58

Post #70 of 397 (12402 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Nice video. You could of shot another one of them lining up for IM gear and a tattoo too.


desert dude

Nov 9, 09 16:01

Post #71 of 397 (12390 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [tetsuoni] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm not jumping on you, I know what a stand up dude you are from multiple people we have in common

I'm jumping on everyone who is complaining about the drafting. We all know that it's going to happen. Youtube is full of that sort of IMFL video already. IS it really a service to re-document what is already known?

But yet, people go to the race(s) year after year, then have the audacity to complain about it knowing full well what they are getting into. ST has had this same conversation now each of the last however many years I've been on this board.

If people really cared about the drafting they would either not do the race(s) that is/are know for drafting and/or they would actually bother to become a draft marshal for those races to solve the problem and/or do some other advocacy.

If you are paying to do that race you are part of the problem, even if you don't draft.


(yes I think the vid is pretty cool but I don't see it as a service)

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching :: Twitter @accelerate3 :: Like us on Facebook


Herbert

Nov 9, 09 16:03

Post #72 of 397 (12382 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [desert dude] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
service? What service? He bitched and whined (no offense) about the drafting, he admits to doing the race every year, which in effect is giving the nod to the status quo and reinforcing the business model for that race.

You want service? Instead of facilitating the problem, become a draft marshal. Write an email to the RD, USAT, WTC complaining about what is going on @ the race. Send in the footage showing how unsafe it is. That would be service. Bitching about and posting video over how butt sore you are about the drafting isn't a service.

Yes let us encourage people to become Marshals, but one thing has nothing to do with the other really.

Every time when we see still pictures of people drafting we hear everyone whining that it is just a moment in time and that it does not say anything. Here is some actual video and I actually appreciate seeing that I wasn't hallucinating when I raced there, or what I saw was not just an isolated incident.


bshanberg

Nov 9, 09 16:03

Post #73 of 397 (12379 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [oldandslow] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
There are lots of simple ways to clean up IMFL. Strip the race of all of its Kona slots until it solves the drafting problem. Problem solved ;).
I doubt any of the guys in this video are Kona bound. The fast racers exited the water long ago. The OP swam a 1:16 and if this video is on highway 20, then this could be 30 minutes into the ride. So, anyone heading for a Kona spot, would of already been way down the road, with very few exceptions.

The video is awesome. Give my bike club 10 sets of these cameras and some two way radios. Me and 9 of my buds will spread out along the course, blend in with the riders, and fix the drafting issues.

The funniest thing to me is that there are likely numerous ST posters sweating more today than they did on race day.


desert dude

Nov 9, 09 16:04

Post #74 of 397 (12373 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Herbert] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

but we already knew that, for at least 5+ years.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching :: Twitter @accelerate3 :: Like us on Facebook


Ryoz

Nov 9, 09 16:09

Post #75 of 397 (12354 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Tricky Dick] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
It's douchey because we all know that at Florida there is drafting. "we" as in the athletes, directors, promoters, sponsors et al. Taking an Iphone, and attaching cameras all over your bike to capture the drafting that "we" all know is happening is ridiculous. Don't race Florida and the race directors and promoters will take notice. But while they are constantly making money by continuously selling the event full, there will be no changes. Stop racing there and they will take notice. You don't really believe that the WTC doesn't know that there is drafting in Florida do you?

It is also douchey because the only reason the douche did the race was to get evidence of drafting. Save your entry for someone who wants to race. Make videos from the sidelines.

Hey numb nuts, if you have enough people complaining and shooting video you will be more effective then just not racing.... Shit i would like to see a marshall roll by one of these things on video. That would get us all talking.


de-tri-mental

Nov 9, 09 16:10

Post #76 of 397 (11844 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [desert dude] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

"IS it really a service to re-document what is already known? "


Read the IMF race reports.

Read about the awesome race ALL people had there.

Awesome PRs left and right.

Read and hear how ALL these awesome people rode clear and didn't draft.

Then come back.

Do think that jives with the reality on the videos?
___________________________________________
Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus


Scot

Nov 9, 09 16:10

Post #77 of 397 (11844 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [snoots] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

That is priceless. How much money and time was spent on aerodynamics Bike, Wheels helmets, etc. only in to sit up in a pack and draft. Maybe every TT bike should come with a rule book.


psychosyd

Nov 9, 09 16:11

Post #78 of 397 (11841 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [konaexpress] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Nice graphic video gholmes. I like you am an IM vet of 23 IMs. People that are slamming you on this thread are doing it for a reason. Anyone who plays by the rules would not slam you for recording blatant cheaters. Some have said this is why they will never do IMFlorida. It doesn't have to be that way. I have done IMFlorida 3 times and have chosen not to get involved in the cheating. The last time I did the race was in 2007. I was on the bike going hard and steady but noticed no one had passed me for a while (I am not that strong of a rider so was wondering what was going on). I sat up in my bars, turned around and I kid you not there was a pack of 30-40 riders right on my ass. I just kept up on my bars, let the pack go (I wasn't going to do the work for them) and continued to ride myself. Don't let other people's cheating ruin your ride, ride with integrity.

Been there. Heading up 79 into a head wind. Looked back and there was 20 or so people hanging onto me.

canadiantriathlete.blogspot.com
NCCP certified Comp| CTC coaching and PT coming soon!


hgrong

Nov 9, 09 16:14

Post #79 of 397 (11833 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [desert dude] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
but we already knew that, for at least 5+ years.

Knowing is nice, proof is golden.


leggett24

Nov 9, 09 16:16

Post #80 of 397 (11829 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Greggor] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
I think it is a matter of blame the course, you want fast times go to Florida! You want differentiation of field and perhaps legit Kona qualifiers go to perhaps Lake Placid?

The course is very much to blame but don't let the riders of the hook. There's plenty to keep people separated at Lake Placid but as soon as you turn on to the out and back and there are no marshals you'll find plenty of drafters (cheaters).


Tricky Dick

Nov 9, 09 16:16

Post #81 of 397 (11830 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Ryoz] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Great. Video Tape all you want. Just don't enter the race. Video from the back of a moto so you can deliver penalties. Don't enter a race that you know has prominent drafting and then bitch about it.


tetsuoni

Nov 9, 09 16:16

Post #82 of 397 (11830 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [desert dude] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

It looks like we agree. We don't patronize races with drafting. It looks like we're in the minority. All the more reason to be a draft marshal and stick it to the majority.
2015 American Zofingen Du is May 17.
R.I.P. Chris Gleason


snoots

Nov 9, 09 16:37

Post #83 of 397 (11763 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [hgrong] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Actually, Section 5.1 h (2) and (3) allow for interpretation, based on safety, course blockage, aid stations, turns, etc. or when a section of the bike course is overly narrow, has obstacles, construction, detours, 'or a similar reason'...

But you knew that... ;)


oldandslow

Nov 9, 09 16:38

Post #84 of 397 (11761 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Tricky Dick] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Quote:
Great. Video Tape all you want. Just don't enter the race. Video from the back of a moto so you can deliver penalties. Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,...

The lady doth protest too much, methinks. (Hamlet Act 3, scene 2)


(This post was edited by oldandslow on Nov 9, 09 16:41)


Mozfan

Nov 9, 09 16:42

Post #85 of 397 (11748 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

They are all riding so slow. Who would want to draft off of them?


helo guy

Nov 9, 09 16:45

Post #86 of 397 (11732 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Scot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Hey,

Thanks for the video! I was not planning to do IMFL. Now I know I will not ever consider it. I think the criticism being handed out is BS. If you want a problem to continue, just ignore it!

I suspect that many (no, not all) of the people who do not like your videos are the ones who might show up in them! If anything is going to be done about the drafting, it helps to show just how bad the problem is.

BTW, I've only done one IM, at Lousiville. I will be doing IM Louisville next year. No way I will ever consider IMFL or Cheatwater FL 1/2 championships.


h2ofun

Nov 9, 09 16:45

Post #87 of 397 (11731 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [tetsuoni] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

It seems to me the issue is just getting worse. I do all of the TBF races, which is a rolling hill course. Have done the series for years. But this year I really noticed a change.
The drafting, from the sprint to Olympic distance had more drafting than I have ever seen. And what was worse, is the top guys were the ones drafting the worst. The RD's
are going nuts trying to figure out how to deal with it since so many folks bitched. Issue is they cannot put motorcycles on the road since it is open.

I got my butt kicked this year by one of these guys, so I know first hand how people who "cheat" can win. :o(

I have no solution, other than see these top folks draft in a little local race showed their true colors.

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html

(This post was edited by h2ofun on Nov 9, 09 16:46)


Flanagan

Nov 9, 09 16:48

Post #88 of 397 (11718 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [stal] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
what cameras did you use? I've wanted to get a handlebar cam to catch vehicular assaults for a long time.

Here is a link to an amazing camera that a local Cat 2 has installed in his helmet. He records 3-4 hour road races on there in HD, so it must have a ton of storage capacity. http://vimeo.com/user527841/videos

I'm pretty sure that Bryan would be willing to divulge the hardware/software setup he is using to record this stuff.


dgunthert

Nov 9, 09 16:51

Post #89 of 397 (11701 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bshanberg] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
In Reply To:
The video is awesome. Give my bike club 10 sets of these cameras and some two way radios. Me and 9 of my buds will spread out along the course, blend in with the riders, and fix the drafting issues.

This. I'd love to see some enforcement done this way. Hell, I'd love to officiate a race this way. You wouldn't even need 10 people. Two or 3 leaving T1 10 minutes or so apart could see a whole lot of the field. Add a couple of MC's and you'd have some serious enforcement. Those on bikes would just have to hold a moderate pace, so they let plenty of people come by them. If some questionable riders come by, pick it up and hang with them long enough to evaluate, call it in, and then flash the card.

I can just see the athlete's meeting: "Drafting is a violation and will result in blah, blah, blah. If you draft, be aware the person you're drafting off of or the person you just blew by may be a race official."


Flanagan

Nov 9, 09 16:52

Post #90 of 397 (11698 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Flanagan] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

If you guys want to see what real road racing looks like, this is the end of a 1/2/3 road race. It was neutralized due to a bad crash. This is the re-start, about 70 miles into the race. Little harder to stay with the group than at IMFL!!!

http://vimeo.com/4007029


Tricky Dick

Nov 9, 09 16:54

Post #91 of 397 (11690 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Flanagan] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

great videos!!


stal

Nov 9, 09 16:57

Post #92 of 397 (11678 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Flanagan] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

those are awesome, how do I get in touch with that guy?


----------------------------------------------------------------

My training


roady

Nov 9, 09 16:59

Post #93 of 397 (11670 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
In Reply To:

I just got fed up with the drafting at florida these past 10 years I finally decided to whats the quote "if there aren't pics it didn't happen" well heres video and more than 20 seconds.
maybe a more appropriate response would be to keep your money to yourself and not support the race. It sure looks like a 'race' problem more than a 'behavior' problem.

There were certainly some blatant drafters at the front, but after that... I think I would have a difficult time moving through that field, and I spend a lot more time working my way through a pack of riders than the average triathlete...


ggeiger

Nov 9, 09 17:02

Post #94 of 397 (11662 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Man, you deserve the ST'er of the year award! Thanks so much for this, as I have vowed to not go back there as a result of this. That said, more are becoming that way, with now AZ, Canada and even LP having this rampant cheating. I think you may have found a solution here....more cameras! Maybe ST can field "marshals" with these cameras to embarrass WTC to actually do more than lip service to the problem.


ericM40-44

Nov 9, 09 17:03

Post #95 of 397 (11656 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [tetsuoni] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

how long before he is banned from IM for this "service"?


desert dude

Nov 9, 09 17:06

Post #96 of 397 (11641 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [hgrong] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

dude they only way you couldn't find proof before now is b/c your utilities cut off your service...about 6 years ago.

Brian Stover
Accelerate3 Coaching :: Twitter @accelerate3 :: Like us on Facebook


Flanagan

Nov 9, 09 17:07

Post #97 of 397 (11635 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [stal] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
those are awesome, how do I get in touch with that guy?

Here is his blog: http://breakawaycyclingmedia.blogspot.com/

Maybe try commenting on one of the videos on that blog. Alternatively, post to the MABRA list serve, in search of him or information about helmet cam setups. http://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf


buddyblanke

Nov 9, 09 17:41

Post #98 of 397 (11525 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Great vids...maybe WTC use your technique to capture drafting violations on all their events...would certainly be more effective than a ref on the back of a motorcycle with a clipboard...

that is, if they and we want to get real serious about this...b2


Toby Tri

Nov 9, 09 17:48

Post #99 of 397 (11506 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [snoots] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Seriously, I only spotted 3 things that I would consider drafting 'violations' if I were mashalling; the rest are all people who were potentially just as frustrated by the congestion as the next guy.

When I did IMFL in 2007, there were instances where I either came up an a pack (I rode 5:34) or was overtaken. I sat up in each case, with one hand on the bar and the other on my hip, or taking a drink or eating or something; I did not INTEND to draft, therefore did not tuck in behind in aero, I pulled the parachute... but I wasn't going to slam on the brakes, either, due to the congestion on the course. I saw MC marshalls, shook my head, one even gave me a little finger salute...

It does come down to what many are saying - too many people on too little road at the same time, but the marshalls have to consider INTENT to properly enforce a clean race, IMO...

I agree. Apparently, there are more drama queens in triathlon than I thought possible.


Bux

Nov 9, 09 17:52

Post #100 of 397 (11491 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

great video of what looks like a poorly organized group ride!?!? Since drafting is obviously not stopping at this race, I like the idea of stripping the Kona slots until something changes


jroden

Nov 9, 09 18:06

Post #101 of 397 (11160 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Flanagan] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
If you guys want to see what real road racing looks like, this is the end of a 1/2/3 road race. It was neutralized due to a bad crash. This is the re-start, about 70 miles into the race. Little harder to stay with the group than at IMFL!!!

http://vimeo.com/4007029
who won that? Seemed like the guys with the Harley logos had half the field but they kept chasing their own team mates down and dragging others up to the break. The camera man was pretty strong, he closed up some painful gaps.

I read that for next year there is a rule change in USAC banning helmet cams along with music players and two way radios in lower categories. Shame, as I find these videos kind of fun to watch.


Pantelones

Nov 9, 09 18:07

Post #102 of 397 (11160 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Wow, that is some plain crappy, confused and stinky riding right there.

Also, just as a factual point of reference. The center line stripes are ~10 feet long and have 30 feet between the end of one like and the start of the next. So with the 7 meter rule there should be the distance of two stripes between each bike.


fasterthanTIM

Nov 9, 09 18:08

Post #103 of 397 (11153 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

That is great. The guy is green is coasting.
________________________________
Lisa Walser-Anderson, ATC,CSCS


wiffcheese

Nov 9, 09 18:21

Post #104 of 397 (11125 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

2 words:

GREAT FLORIDIAN


Hid

Nov 9, 09 18:32

Post #105 of 397 (11098 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

All these responses and not one person mentioned that someone's seat was too high or too low. ;-)


"your horse is too high" - tigerchik


TriBri00

Nov 9, 09 18:41

Post #106 of 397 (11065 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Scot] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

wow I could ride an IM too! I'll sell the aero helmet, zipp's, P2. In fact I'll sell all the fancy aero crap I've bought over the years on eBay, just ride my comfy road bike and sit in for 4.5 hours.

FWIW, there were a lot of compression socks riding in that pack...hmmm.... any correlation between drafting and wearing compression socks? Is it marker of something, or does all that extra blood flowing to your brain make you do funny things?
Brian


wd

Nov 9, 09 18:44

Post #107 of 397 (11050 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Awesome video. Saturday was my first IM and I have to say I had expected there to be some drafting. I did my best to drop back whenever passed and I saw the Motomarshalls many times throughout the race. The pelotons were kind of disconcerting, but I think the vast majority of folks tried to follow the rules. When I was on 20, I looked back many times and had a nice big gap between me and the riders following me.

One thing that did annoy me though was all of the people who rode in the middle of the road. Why are folks afraid to ride in the bike lane? I had to yell "on your left" to many people when passing them to get them to move over so I could pass without crossing the double yellow.

I can't wait to see more of these videos. I hope I am in some of them.

Let me know if you see me. I was #1564.


ElGordo

Nov 9, 09 18:44

Post #108 of 397 (11049 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [ride2eat] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
2 words:

GREAT FLORIDIAN
Here are two more words: "Sold Out" as in IMF for next year is already full. The rat race will be won next year by a rat, once again.


Flanagan

Nov 9, 09 18:47

Post #109 of 397 (11040 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [jroden] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
In Reply To:
If you guys want to see what real road racing looks like, this is the end of a 1/2/3 road race. It was neutralized due to a bad crash. This is the re-start, about 70 miles into the race. Little harder to stay with the group than at IMFL!!!

http://vimeo.com/4007029
who won that? Seemed like the guys with the Harley logos had half the field but they kept chasing their own team mates down and dragging others up to the break. The camera man was pretty strong, he closed up some painful gaps.

I read that for next year there is a rule change in USAC banning helmet cams along with music players and two way radios in lower categories. Shame, as I find these videos kind of fun to watch.
Harley went 1,3,5,6. They have been the top ranked amateur 1/2 squad in the nation the last two years.


Flanagan

Nov 9, 09 18:50

Post #110 of 397 (11024 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [jroden] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
In Reply To:
If you guys want to see what real road racing looks like, this is the end of a 1/2/3 road race. It was neutralized due to a bad crash. This is the re-start, about 70 miles into the race. Little harder to stay with the group than at IMFL!!!

http://vimeo.com/4007029
who won that? Seemed like the guys with the Harley logos had half the field but they kept chasing their own team mates down and dragging others up to the break. The camera man was pretty strong, he closed up some painful gaps.

I read that for next year there is a rule change in USAC banning helmet cams along with music players and two way radios in lower categories. Shame, as I find these videos kind of fun to watch.
The guy who took the flier at the video start stays away until about 1000 meters. Since Harley had numbers, the group made them chase the DC Velo guy down.


wiffcheese

Nov 9, 09 18:55

Post #111 of 397 (11017 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [ElGordo] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
In Reply To:
2 words:

GREAT FLORIDIAN
Here are two more words: "Sold Out" as in IMF for next year is already full. The rat race will be won next year by a rat, once again.

Yea I'm sure IMFL will always be sold out, but I'm going to do another IM in 2011 and it will be GF again. I wouldn't do IMFL if it were free. Completing the IM distance is a personal journey for me and the IM brand does nothing for me per se. I do want to complete a planned IM course with other competitors, but not in that chaos I just witnessed on video. I want to know I did it all....I just think deep down those that do choose to draft can't really feel as if they didn't cheat themselves when they finish.


(This post was edited by ride2eat on Nov 9, 09 18:59)


derek5

Nov 9, 09 19:01

Post #112 of 397 (10992 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

you are the man


terre firma

Nov 9, 09 19:15

Post #113 of 397 (10963 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Priceless with a capital P. Never did an ironman in fact I am a duathlete but given some of the still photos I have seen of IM events (despite the disclaimers given that photo angle makes it appear that there is no drafting), I always had a jaundiced view of what went on in the bike segment. Good good job with the camera!


Mito Chondria

Nov 9, 09 19:34

Post #114 of 397 (10924 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

wow, I've never been on a group ride this easy!

Congrats, you are an Ironman.


“The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it.” -Michelangelo

MoodBoost Drink : Mood Support + Energy.


terre firma

Nov 9, 09 19:39

Post #115 of 397 (10908 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [desert dude] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
service? What service? He bitched and whined (no offense) about the drafting, he admits to doing the race every year, which in effect is giving the nod to the status quo and reinforcing the business model for that race.

You want service? Instead of facilitating the problem, become a draft marshal. Write an email to the RD, USAT, WTC complaining about what is going on @ the race. Send in the footage showing how unsafe it is. That would be service. Bitching about and posting video over how butt sore you are about the drafting isn't a service.
As they say in Louisiana, that boo-sheeet. Don't come on hard on this guy D squared. He merely is documenting what is implicitly condoned in IM racing. If IM management wants to crack down on drafting then they would hire a commensurate number of draft marshals to enforce rules. Becoming or volunteering to be a draft marshal is one thing but having IM bringing on the number of draft marshals required to really enforce the rules is the issue at hand. It is a race management issue since IM controls the race.


Tricky Dick

Nov 9, 09 19:52

Post #116 of 397 (10873 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Flanagan] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Is that club from Maryland?


devashish_paul

Nov 9, 09 19:57

Post #117 of 397 (10856 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [tetsuoni] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Desertdude and Tetsuoni. I don't think simply "voting with your feet" solves the problem. I think what Gholmes did actually goes further to solving the problem than "voting with your feet" cause if you choose to not go there are 10 others lined up to go (and potentially draft).

I think athletes who are clean have the right to show up at a race and expect a fair day. While at the moment this is somewhat utopian thinking, the more guys that show up at so called "draft fest races" and choose to ride clean like Konaexpress by dropping back when greeted with a peleton or Eric Roy (you guys saw his bike split in Florida...riding 4:36 out of the age group wave, you ain't drafting no one riding the front of the field with nose in the wind....), the better these races will get.

I don't know how many athletes I have let go by me on the out and back section at Ironman Lake Placid. I know things will even out once the race goes uphill. The topography takes care of the momentary congestion.

Where topography does not take care of "momentary congestion" we the athletes have to lobby the RD's hard to give us:
  • reasonable wave starts with proper wave spacings for strength of field and topography....so a flat race will require smaller waves with wider spacing
  • better enforcement with the standard motorcycle setup, but with more density. What you really need is the quiet Chinese electric scooters that are totally silent and can go at 50+ kph. The noisy motorbikes are useless.
  • more innovative enforcement....any of you guys drive on the highways in England where they have the video cam speedtraps....well we just need more cameras floating around the course like Gholmes
  • stiffer penalties, like first infraction show up at the penalty tent and sign in "plus run an extra 1 mile loop at T2". Second infraction "sign in"+ 3 mile loop at T2. If you had to run 3 extra miles of "laps of shame", especially in an Ironman, it would be "game over"

Saying "voting with your feet" is a bogus statement. If you care about the sport, you can't just expect these big races will sort themselves out on their own without guys like you actually doing something about it. Fine if you want to marshal that is a starting point, but still not good enough. We need to change the structure of how drafting is dealt with in the USAT rule book (stronger penalties) and how waves are set up and spaced.

cervelo.com (P3) |infinitnutrition.ca | bushtukah.com
Whiteface Hill Climb + Epicman Lake Placid 3k/180k/21k June 5/6 2014, Epicman Tremblant 10k/260k/42.2k 11-13 July 2014


BDoughtie

Nov 9, 09 20:08

Post #118 of 397 (10833 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Dev,

Is any of that actually real world and applicable by WTC? Or are we just basically talking the good talk, but nothing really will ever come of it?

I realize it'll mostly change when people simply stop showing up to race, but without that happening you think any of your solutions could ever be implemented? Or are we just dreaming out loud?

1st point: Would wave starts create more "course" time, and therofore have the race to be run later/earlier, and thus create more costs (road closures, police/med. people)?
2nd pt: I'm guessing the quiet scooters would cost more: Meaning higher costs for race, higher costs for racers?
3rd pt: More cameras=Need more money for the race organization= Higher race fees for racers?
4th pt: Actually a great penalty. It more than likely will slow the drafting down, just because people dont wnat the penalty. People dont mind the penalty now, because it's almost still postive net gain. A penalty of that magnittude would atleast slow/ or be a severe enough penalty to actually penalize people who draft.


I'm not trying to argue, just seeing what are actual possible real world solutions. If we want to implement some of these policies, it seems racers have to accept the higher race fees more than likely.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


(This post was edited by bad929 on Nov 9, 09 20:09)


Shakeandbake

Nov 9, 09 20:09

Post #119 of 397 (10831 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

gholmes- great job man. Yes, we can all do something to avoid drafting. This means you have to try and get out of the saddle and find some open road or fall back and wait to pass legally. All this crap about congestion is just that, crap. Someone has to make a move to better the situation. It's not "What can this race do for me?" It's "what can I do for this race?"
I too have a lot to say on the race course. When these people are getting the benifit of a draft and it is congested, they take total advantage of the situation and ride it out as long as they can. This is weak. triathlonn is a young sport. Time (and unfortunatly money) will fix this problem.
How do you drafters sleep at night? How do you hold your head up?
"injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere" MLK


ggeiger

Nov 9, 09 20:10

Post #120 of 397 (10826 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Amen, Dev! Very nice post and exceptional ideas. I agree, as I'd love to do IMFL again in a fair battle. It's the most reasonably priced race to do in the US, as it's off-season down there, and sunshine for us northerners is a treasure. We should not have to run from a race simply because we let the drafters win. I did the LD World's in Denmark 1 year where they did have the penalty lap concept, and it was great! The lap of shame. Another great idea with the electric bikes. Lord knows that the IM races bring in enough cash to buy a few of these to police the event....we just need to put pressure on to get it done. Get the petition started, Dev. I'm ready to sign on.


BDoughtie

Nov 9, 09 20:12

Post #121 of 397 (10819 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [MTF5] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

How do you drafters sleep at night? How do you hold your head up?


The same way people who cheat on their taxes or cheat wal street, the Nascar crew chief who changes a wedge adjustment, the football player that holds on every play. They just do it.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


(This post was edited by bad929 on Nov 9, 09 20:15)


JSA

Nov 9, 09 20:15

Post #122 of 397 (10811 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm not some rookie here.. I've done 29 ironman races, done hawaii 7 times this was my 10th florida and I'm 54 years old so if thats douchy so beit I old enough I couldn't give a F....K anyway
I just got fed up with the drafting at florida these past 10 years I finally decided to whats the quote "if there aren't pics it didn't happen" well heres video and more than 20 seconds.



Dude, you are my new hero for a number of reasons. First and foremost, that many races and that many years of IM racing is damn impressive. I can only hope and dream to come close to those number some day.

Second, seems like you love doing these races. I only hope to continue to have that drive after years of racing.

Third, that video is AWESOME! Cool idea. Good on ya for having some fun with this. I don't understand the hating you are getting from a few posters, but, that is to be expected, I guess.

Anyway, too cool! Well done!
_______________________________________________

“If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went.” - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR


BDoughtie

Nov 9, 09 20:21

Post #123 of 397 (10790 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [ggeiger] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I dont think your getting the business side of it. WTC isnt going to just do this to be "fair" and because they have enough money. That's exactly why they wont do it. Plus, as a business they arent going to simple waste profit on a product that is already selling out. If we want this to change, we have to ask WTC to raise the price of the race so that this type of stuff can be implemented. WTC is not going to foot the bill, the racers will be footing the bill. Thats just business. I hate that it is that way, but that's how it will be.

Until people just stop doing this race, will WTC take notice and attempt to change or figure out how to get racers back to the race. The next alternative is to tell WTC you will pay them $1k to race your race with officials on super quiet motobikes, camera speed sensors, etc.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


(This post was edited by bad929 on Nov 9, 09 20:26)


Keyser_Soze

Nov 9, 09 20:21

Post #124 of 397 (10790 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Aren't you approaching an aid station in this video? People slow down randomly at aid stations and cause utter chaos. This seems like the reason people are sitting up, weaving and "apparent" blatantly drafting.

Can you get aerial footage next year? :-)

What was the still camera for?


******************************************************
Well I believe in God, and the only thing that scares me is Keyser Soze


gamebofh

Nov 9, 09 20:24

Post #125 of 397 (10778 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I have relatives in FL.

FL would make a great vacation for everyone, I'd get to see family, the family could come
and have fun. I'd get a race in. It would be win (me), win (my family), win (relatives).

I did SilverMan this weekend. Sherpa thinks that Vegas sucks when you're there for a Race.
Kids stayed at home. Didn't see my relatives.

But hey, IMFL sells out, so guess my feet don't matter. But I still voted with them.

-Jot


ggeiger

Nov 9, 09 20:30

Post #126 of 397 (10385 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Until people just stop doing this race, will WTC take notice and attempt to change or figure out how to get racers back to the race. The next alternative is to tell WTC you will pay them $1k to race your race with officials on super quiet motobikes, camera speed sensors, etc.

You're not getting the fact that that ain't going to happen until many of us are dead. Florida in November is just too damn appealing. The walk away is having no effect at this point. Raise prices as you suggest, and you really drive them away.


BDoughtie

Nov 9, 09 20:34

Post #127 of 397 (10382 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [ggeiger] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

But what I'm saying is, your solution suggest that WTC will simply implement this policy because they make so much money anyway; wont happen. I'm saying, that's not going to happen. WTC makes all that money now, it's not going to do something to lose it's profit margin's, and certainly not raise the cost of the race without raising the Race Fees on the participants.

Dev's solutions are great: But your missing one point to his solutions. Racers will have to pay for those solutions to be implemented. WTC isnt going to pay for all of that, and not raise race fees. That's just bad business.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


oldandslow

Nov 9, 09 20:45

Post #128 of 397 (10356 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Quote:
I realize it'll mostly change when people simply stop showing up to race, but without that happening you think any of your solutions could ever be implemented? Or are we just dreaming out loud?

Personal boycotts are meaningless, especially for popular races. You need to understand, that the most important asset of WTC is the brand name "Ironman" (that and compression socks). This video attacks the integrity of the Ironman brand, making a dirty little family secret visible to anyone with an interest in triathlon. Ironman(tm) is supposed to conjure up images of endurance/perserverence/drive/etc., not an endless parade of blantant cheaters. Bravo, keep the videos coming!


(This post was edited by oldandslow on Nov 9, 09 20:54)


johnboy

Nov 9, 09 20:46

Post #129 of 397 (10354 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Great White North has had penalty run lap for drafting for a few years (at least since 2004).

First offence 1600m lap, second offence DQ.


BDoughtie

Nov 9, 09 20:51

Post #130 of 397 (10342 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [oldandslow] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Hasnt that dirty little secret been know for years about IM FL? I realize it'll create some bad publicity, but again, if you want them to implement Dev's solution: Get ready to pay for it.

People already bitch about paying $500+ for an Ironman race. Can you imagine what they will do if the race fee is $800-$1k+? Thats why I dont see it happening. ImFl is what it is. It's a draftfest. You go race there and do what OP has done and race yourself, or you choose to get in the packs and race that way.

People want to implement an great ideas, but I'm also wondering who is going to pay for that? Obviously WTC is going to jack up the price for the race if we have quiet scooters and speeding camera's, etc.


The solution that I think would be the most applicable and create the greatest deterent to drafting would be an 1 mile penalty run, etc. 5k for 2nd offense. People simply couldnt afford to draft at that point. I'm sure there will be the occassional accidental brake check draft, but I'm guessing these "pelotons", will be broken up tremendously by that type of penalty.

The penalty system now that is in place, simply is not enough to deter people from drafting. Cause someone to do extra work, and sit for 30 mins and people will really think twice about drafting.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


(This post was edited by bad929 on Nov 9, 09 20:54)


oldandslow

Nov 9, 09 20:58

Post #131 of 397 (10323 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Quote:
Hasnt that dirty little secret been know for years about IM FL? I realize it'll create some bad publicity, but again, if you want them to implement Dev's solution: Get ready to pay for it.
No, Slowtwitch is smaller than you thinkk, even in the triathlete community. More importantly, the weekend jogger doesn't know, but still buys IM(tm) glasses, purely due to brand marketing. As far as Dev's ideas, wave starts or time trial starts would greatly alleviate part of the problem: too many athletes too close together..


BDoughtie

Nov 9, 09 21:01

Post #132 of 397 (10319 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [oldandslow] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

So with wave starts: Will that increase costs, for medical personal, lifeguards, police, road closures? I'm guessing some people volunteer, but I've heard like police usually have an crazy salary/hr rate.

How do you have an time trial start on basically an open beach? Wouldnt say people just basically still start in bunches? Unless you basically push people through a starting gate. But at IM FL, isn't the start basically wide open (or atlest 20 yards wide). Time Trial start basically only works when you have a small start area, not an open area.


I'm not trying to argue, I'm just trying to figure out the costs of each of these ideas. Because you can bet your ass that WTC isn't simply going to pay for the extra costs. So is the added costs, worth it? At what cost, are we going to have to pay to race a draft free race?
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


(This post was edited by bad929 on Nov 9, 09 21:08)


sailnfast

Nov 9, 09 21:04

Post #133 of 397 (10308 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

BTW, Matty Reed just tweeted your video:

boomboomreed to me this is cheating at its best.... wow. what a bummer to watch. imf2009bikeone.mov http://bit.ly/1rFswD


BDoughtie

Nov 9, 09 21:11

Post #134 of 397 (10294 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [sailnfast] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

ST better come up with a community fund to protect gholmes, from the money hungry WTC organization pretty soon! :)
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


sailnfast

Nov 9, 09 21:23

Post #135 of 397 (10271 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
ST better come up with a community fund to protect gholmes, from the money hungry WTC organization pretty soon! :)

I think gholmes will be fine. I'm hoping his video and the play it's getting will cause WTC to take a serious look at how out of hand drafting has become at some of its races and actually investigate ways to reduce it. But I'm known to be optimistic ;)


DamonHenry

Nov 9, 09 22:03

Post #136 of 397 (10232 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Tricky Dick] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Better yet. Enter the race, videotape the drafting. Ask for a refund.


Rocky M

Nov 9, 09 23:03

Post #137 of 397 (10173 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Funny I was just thinking today on my run that a helmet camera would have been awesome on the bike at Ironman Hawaii this year. I can say with certainty that Kona was a draft fest this year for the AGrs. Packs formed just like this. I saw ONE marshall all the way out to Hawi, about a dozen times. At one point a huge pack (peloton) was sitting up the road, the motorbike/marshal pulled up next to the pack & nobody broke it up. They all sat there shoulder to shoulder & wheel on wheel. 2 to 3 minutes go by...then the marshal drives off without flashing a card or writing down a number. Methinks WTC may put marshals out there for looks once in a while & write up a few penalties just to make it look good. But the opportunity existed for that one instance alone to write down anywhere from 15 to 20 numbers & then flash them a naughty card. WTC has made more IM races, let in more athletes (making it a safety hazard in many races), diluted the Kona slots (okay, this is unrelated to my point), increased fees (I paid about $175 for my first Kona). It really is becoming quite a circus event (WTC races). Now would be a great time for NORIMAN events. Yep, Iron (reversed)-man. Which means, some great group of race directors come & and correct a lot of the issues WTC has in their races (such as field limit sizes across all races NEVER to increase--unrealistic once they see the $$ coming in or increase in costs of putting on the race). If so many want to experience Kona, I wonder if Kona would allow a similar race on the same course? Unless WTC has the public roads TM'd for their use only. Just a few "ranting thoughts". Let the roasting begin...


masterslacker

Nov 10, 09 2:51

Post #138 of 397 (10114 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Why not just have IMFL be a draft bike course? I mean what's the point...it would require ya swim your ass off to get out first with the lead packs and make the marathon quite interesting. Just put asterisks by new course records. Would it be too dangerous? Well if everyone knew in advance that it would be a drafting course, squeamish folks wouldn't apply. So you'd have a 2.4 swim, road race and marathon..that way everyone is on a level playing field unless you bring fins. ;)
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tetsuoni

Nov 10, 09 3:05

Post #139 of 397 (10107 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Time trial starts.
2015 American Zofingen Du is May 17.
R.I.P. Chris Gleason


tetsuoni

Nov 10, 09 3:10

Post #140 of 397 (10106 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [ericM35-39] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Not my call. It would serve the anti-drafting movement well for WTC to make a matyr of him. Whistleblowers that receive retaliation make great press.
2015 American Zofingen Du is May 17.
R.I.P. Chris Gleason


tetsuoni

Nov 10, 09 3:33

Post #141 of 397 (10083 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Time trial starts. With massive fields like IM Fla start in groups of 5 or 10 mixed racers of varied ages and sexes. It's easy to do with the state of the art of chip timing. More cameras. Laps of shame for penalties. However, until these changes are instituted, I'll not return. Life's short. I'm not going to be a martyr to the anti-drafting cause allowing myself to be taken advantage of by cheaters on principle when it costs a couple of thousand to race one of these "events" between entry fee, airfare, hotel, rental car, meals, etc.... I'm not going to piss away an A race in my prime by entering one where I know I'm going to be taken advantage of. I'll support local, grassroot events and live hassle free and happy. I'm selfish that way. I don't like crack dealers and their clients either, but I'm not going to aggravate myself and waste my time trying to stop what they're doing. If the police, or WTC, don't enforce the rules, then those that participate will live self-deluded, meaningless lives.
2015 American Zofingen Du is May 17.
R.I.P. Chris Gleason


Dynamic Du

Nov 10, 09 3:35

Post #142 of 397 (10081 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Kevin K] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Funny I was just thinking today on my run that a helmet camera would have been awesome on the bike at Ironman Hawaii this year. I can say with certainty that Kona was a draft fest this year for the AGrs. Packs formed just like this. I saw ONE marshall all the way out to Hawi, about a dozen times. At one point a huge pack (peloton) was sitting up the road, the motorbike/marshal pulled up next to the pack & nobody broke it up. They all sat there shoulder to shoulder & wheel on wheel. 2 to 3 minutes go by...then the marshal drives off without flashing a card or writing down a number. Methinks WTC may put marshals out there for looks once in a while & write up a few penalties just to make it look good. But the opportunity existed for that one instance alone to write down anywhere from 15 to 20 numbers & then flash them a naughty card. WTC has made more IM races, let in more athletes (making it a safety hazard in many races), diluted the Kona slots (okay, this is unrelated to my point), increased fees (I paid about $175 for my first Kona). It really is becoming quite a circus event (WTC races). Now would be a great time for NORIMAN events. Yep, Iron (reversed)-man. Which means, some great group of race directors come & and correct a lot of the issues WTC has in their races (such as field limit sizes across all races NEVER to increase--unrealistic once they see the $$ coming in or increase in costs of putting on the race). If so many want to experience Kona, I wonder if Kona would allow a similar race on the same course? Unless WTC has the public roads TM'd for their use only. Just a few "ranting thoughts". Let the roasting begin...
Now there's a thinker. Love your work.


h2ofun

Nov 10, 09 4:54

Post #143 of 397 (10021 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [masterslacker] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I thought IMFL was a draft legal race based on the video.

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
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mcycle

Nov 10, 09 5:13

Post #144 of 397 (9976 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=channel


pathetic.


masterslacker

Nov 10, 09 5:20

Post #145 of 397 (9960 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [mlinenb] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

That one is cool where you see the flow of the race for a bit as well as a lot of open road to ride legal.

The draft looked good as you could tell some decent soft pedaling going on...
--------------------------------------------
Youtube Channel: Doritos Discussion


hgrong

Nov 10, 09 5:21

Post #146 of 397 (9957 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [mlinenb] [In reply to] Quote | Reply


That's incredible.

Begin watching the rear camera at 2:40 and watch that pack pass. Just another group ride.


tom1376

Nov 10, 09 5:29

Post #147 of 397 (9940 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

that's crazy - most of them are coasting............It truly is about a 30% difference effort wise if you are drafting.


wiffcheese

Nov 10, 09 5:45

Post #148 of 397 (9891 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [tom1376] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I wonder if any of the draft crew from IMFL gets on this site and has taken a gander at this video? I realize there is only so much they can do, but at the very least it would confirm for them if they want a draft free race either the field needs to come down in size or the marshalls need to grow their force.....or both.

It's obvious the honor code among athletes doesn't exist.....I have never seen such blatant drafting in my life.


tom1376

Nov 10, 09 5:48

Post #149 of 397 (9879 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [tom1376] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

At what speeds what everyone say most of the drafting is done? 20 - 23mph or is it all across the board?


psycholist

Nov 10, 09 6:01

Post #150 of 397 (9845 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [mlinenb] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I've got one issue with that video. At the end, I was wondering why the rider in green that Holmes just passed didn't open the required distance, but then I looked in the right frame and Holmes hands weren't on the extensions anymore. He appears to have passed several folks, gotten in front of them, then just sat up. That's not a cool move at all. For the guy in green to have dropped back, he'd have to have literally hit the brakes which looks like it could have been a recipe for disaster with all that nonsense going on.

I'm not saying gbobholmes hasn't done a service to the sport here, but a little of it is like the nightly news film crew reporting on the traffic jam that's only there because the nightly news film crew is set up along the side of the road creating the gawkers jam.


waitebe

Nov 10, 09 6:11

Post #151 of 397 (9968 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Can you give us a little detail of your camera setup? What cameras you used? How you mounted them? What software you used to sync them?
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chrisjones

Nov 10, 09 6:16

Post #152 of 397 (9957 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [psycholist] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
I've got one issue with that video. At the end, I was wondering why the rider in green that Holmes just passed didn't open the required distance, but then I looked in the right frame and Holmes hands weren't on the extensions anymore. He appears to have passed several folks, gotten in front of them, then just sat up. That's not a cool move at all. For the guy in green to have dropped back, he'd have to have literally hit the brakes which looks like it could have been a recipe for disaster with all that nonsense going on.

I'm not saying gbobholmes hasn't done a service to the sport here, but a little of it is like the nightly news film crew reporting on the traffic jam that's only there because the nightly news film crew is set up along the side of the road creating the gawkers jam.
He also crosses the yellow line at 1:15. Not that I care.


hgrong

Nov 10, 09 6:20

Post #153 of 397 (9939 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [psycholist] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
I've got one issue with that video. At the end, I was wondering why the rider in green that Holmes just passed didn't open the required distance, but then I looked in the right frame and Holmes hands weren't on the extensions anymore. He appears to have passed several folks, gotten in front of them, then just sat up. That's not a cool move at all. For the guy in green to have dropped back, he'd have to have literally hit the brakes which looks like it could have been a recipe for disaster with all that nonsense going on.

I'm not saying gbobholmes hasn't done a service to the sport here, but a little of it is like the nightly news film crew reporting on the traffic jam that's only there because the nightly news film crew is set up along the side of the road creating the gawkers jam.

He didn't cause that peloton that passed him at 2:40-3:10.


(This post was edited by hgrong on Nov 10, 09 6:21)


LoriT

Nov 10, 09 7:00

Post #154 of 397 (9841 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Change will likely only come if the Ironman Corp. or the governing body enforces the rules or yanks the race (as we know it).

I know when I want my voice heard, I write letters.....

How many letters would stir up change??


DavidC

Nov 10, 09 7:06

Post #155 of 397 (9820 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Confirms why i'll never do IMFla or Draftwater unless some major changes are made. Pathetic.


p2k2001

Nov 10, 09 7:07

Post #156 of 397 (9818 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thank you. Epic!


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Joel0135

Nov 10, 09 7:10

Post #157 of 397 (9807 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [LoriT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Great video, and it really represents what the bike course was like. The drafting occured all day - not just on Hwy 20. I saw it on 231 and on 388 also. Surprisingly, I saw 3 or 4 different people get red carded on the 20. I also hear another racing complaining that she got carded on 2301.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to a matter of choice. You (and only you) make a decision to ride a clean race or to cheat. The concept isn't difficult to grasp. I don't believe the crap that "it was just too hard to not draft". I was extremely careful on the entire ride, and didn't draft. Perhaps my bike split wasn't as good as it could have been, but so what. I went to bed knowing that I finished the IM and didn't cheat.
Joel | My Blog | Team Rev3 Tri | Twitter @TriMadness


devashish_paul

Nov 10, 09 7:18

Post #158 of 397 (9787 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [tetsuoni] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

For example at Clearwater or Florida if they did a TT start with groups of 15 starting 15 people WIDE every minute you get 900 people off in an hour, but more importantly you eliminate the big chunks of people when you start large groups together in the swim. That's 1800 people in 2 hours. Cap the field at that. Not hard to do with today's timing technology.

Then instead of time penalties, let's have:
  • first penalty: MILE OF SHAME on a 200m loop outside T2 for everyone to see (8 laps)
  • second penalty: 3 ADDITIONAL MILES OF SHAME (so now the guy is doing 32 laps till his head spins and since there is a timing matt entering and leaving, you don't get to leave until you cross the exit mat and it says you did 32 laps).

Its not just the penalty and shredding the legs with extra running. It's the public humiliation in front of friends and family.

Tetsuoni, I agree with not sacrificing yourself to be taken advantage of. But maybe we can all do something here, and start something on ST to lobby USAT, WTC and RD's. If they can do TT start in Louisville, then what's the problem elsewhere.

Dev

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desert dude

Nov 10, 09 7:26

Post #159 of 397 (9769 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

they already do that at some of the Europe 70.3s.

In Antwerp 70.3 this year they had run penalty loops ~450m or so over very chunky, uneven cobblestones.

1 loop per offense. they also had about 14 motos with refs for a 90km course, part of which is 2 loops. I never went more then 5 min without seeing a ref.

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imf1271

Nov 10, 09 7:33

Post #160 of 397 (9750 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Joel0135] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm with you 100% Joel, it's an individual decision and you have to live with it. Why do Ironman if you cheat? There aren't more motors because the organizer is too cheap.


gholmes

Nov 10, 09 7:45

Post #161 of 397 (9713 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [psycholist] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
I've got one issue with that video. At the end, I was wondering why the rider in green that Holmes just passed didn't open the required distance, but then I looked in the right frame and Holmes hands weren't on the extensions anymore. He appears to have passed several folks, gotten in front of them, then just sat up. That's not a cool move at all. For the guy in green to have dropped back, he'd have to have literally hit the brakes which looks like it could have been a recipe for disaster with all that nonsense going on.

I'm not saying gbobholmes hasn't done a service to the sport here, but a little of it is like the nightly news film crew reporting on the traffic jam that's only there because the nightly news film crew is set up along the side of the road creating the gawkers jam.

I knew someone would say that first the yellow line...We are talking about drafting and getting an advantage I never said I was perfect. It was to avoid all the bikes coming into that aid station they were wide(see the newer video with front and rear views in same clip).
YEs I admit it I crossed the yellow line yes. Its like the double yellow line for automobiles.. Your not supposed to pass with a double yellow line. BUT what are you going to do if say a car stops
dead in front of you or a tree is on the road. Are you going to wait until the car moves to pass or someone removes the tree.. NO your going to look see if there is any on coming traffic(this isn' a hill) and if safe make your pass.

As for the setting up after a pass.. This is why those of us who make every effort not to draft are really pissed off. We work very hard(which you don't see the folks in the pack who claim they got
caught up in do) to make the pass legallly.. I push through the packs when they slow down. Well after 10 bikes or so and actually getting some wind protection from the pack as your passing
you get to the front and they speed up to stay with you or you keep pushing. But eventually I can't stay up in front. This can happen over and over again.
FInally you just get frustrated. I see them in my mirror gaining and pretty much decide its not worth the effort to keep pushing...
First time I passed the group they all slowed down at aid station and in the crowd. I kept going following the rules passing at a fast clip well less than 20 seconds.
Each time I'd pass a couple I ended up in someone elses draft zone. Toward the end if you watch I shifted gears because I wasn't gaining on the next bike but was in the draft zone so I did
what I was supposed to do finish the pass but by then the group started picking up steam after the slow down so it was matter of time. I may have sat up but I was going roughly the same speed.
I was hopeing to get my gps track info overlayed but since my video was not continous due to a reboot earlier its going to be difficult(the bike mounted cameras ran continous)
But it would show the speeds.


Toby Tri

Nov 10, 09 7:48

Post #162 of 397 (9702 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [chrisjones] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:

He also crosses the yellow line at 1:15. Not that I care.

I saw that too . . . what a cheater. lol


gholmes

Nov 10, 09 7:50

Post #163 of 397 (9687 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [djciii] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
During the first few seconds of the clip I thought you were the biggest winer ever...and then it started...that is unbelievable...I bet there won't be drafting next year.
More likely they won't allow cameras next year.


Richard K

Nov 10, 09 7:51

Post #164 of 397 (9685 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [snoots] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Only 3...you should look at the video again. I only saw three that were not drafting. If they were 3 bike lengths apart per the rules that would have been a 10 minute video :)
Cheers...

Rich


Flanagan

Nov 10, 09 7:56

Post #165 of 397 (9665 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [psycholist] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
I've got one issue with that video. At the end, I was wondering why the rider in green that Holmes just passed didn't open the required distance, but then I looked in the right frame and Holmes hands weren't on the extensions anymore. He appears to have passed several folks, gotten in front of them, then just sat up. That's not a cool move at all. For the guy in green to have dropped back, he'd have to have literally hit the brakes which looks like it could have been a recipe for disaster with all that nonsense going on.

I'm not saying gbobholmes hasn't done a service to the sport here, but a little of it is like the nightly news film crew reporting on the traffic jam that's only there because the nightly news film crew is set up along the side of the road creating the gawkers jam.
No, he finishes making the pass, then he is clearly going to be overtaken. Once he is overtaken, he can either stay in the bars (not safe in a pack), or he can put his hands on the hoods. He chose the latter (safer) option. I wish we could see bib numbers, so we could post names and make this thread even more fun.


Flanagan

Nov 10, 09 7:59

Post #166 of 397 (9661 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Tricky Dick] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Is that club from Maryland?
Racers on the team are from VA, DC, MD, and PA. Its not so much a club as an elite am team.


BDoughtie

Nov 10, 09 8:03

Post #167 of 397 (9650 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Why are they going to lower capacity?

If that's the case, WTC will simply raise the costs to the 1800 person capacity to offset the lose of income by lowering the capacity.

So the nex question is this: Do people want to pay $777 to race and be potentially draft legal, or pay $500 and race with it as is. From all accounts, people are upset that races are $500 now, I'm not sure how people would feel if it went to $777. $300 bucks isnt really all that much in terms of dollars, but when you put it into context, it's basically 50% added cost to the avg. cost now.

If you really want to make a change, you have to present a case to WTC, that will create a cleanier race, all the while keeping the gravy train for WTC's pockets. They aren't going to want to implement a plan that causes them to lose money. It's a BUSINESS, and it's all about the money. It's not about allowing people to race to see what how far they can push themselvs. If that were the case, simply go out on a Sat. and do 140.6 race by yourself.


This arguement kinda reminds me of the Playoff debate in college football. Everyone says that college football needs a playoff, so that it's fair for most teams and a true champion on the field is crowned. However, they forget about the finances of the decisions. Why the heck do you think the BCS was created by only 6 conferences in the 1st place. It's all about money, and university prez's arent going to drop that system simply for a system of unkown financically. So hence, why there is no easy answer to the college football playoff system. Yes, it makes sense to have a college playoff system, but it's all about the MONEY. Show the colleges how they can make more money, and a playoff will be implemented. Until than, it's just a pipe dream.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


(This post was edited by bad929 on Nov 10, 09 8:30)


Afleet Alex

Nov 10, 09 8:16

Post #168 of 397 (9606 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [LoriT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

<<
LoriT sez: Change will likely only come if the Ironman Corp. or the governing body enforces the rules or yanks the race (as we know it).

I know when I want my voice heard, I write letters.....

How many letters would stir up change??

>>
sometimes Jim Riccitello the wtc head referee is on this board. Jim, this is a disgrace. please explain how it happens on your watch. please also explain why the rules variations for wtc events ask for a lesser time penalty for drafting? usat rules say 6 mins for first offense and 12 minutes for second offense. wtc is less. why?

as long as races fill up there won't be any change. what happens when the equity group sells it in a few years, any ideas?


psycholist

Nov 10, 09 8:18

Post #169 of 397 (9600 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

For the record, I didn't say anything about the yellow line (the aid station volunteers seemed so determined to get me to take a bottle at one point on the B2B course that I had to go across the yellow line to get away from them ... and there weren't any other bikes around. I think they were bored to death and wanted the thrill of handing me a bottle). But if I were the guy in the green and you did to me what I saw (or thought I saw) on that video, I'd be a little pissed off.

Regardless, those ARE awesome videos and damning evidence, both. Very cool. Very selfless of you to do that. I'm sure you could have had a much faster race if you weren't doing that (and carrying that extra gear).
Bob C.

The "science" on any matter can never be settled until every possible variable is taken into account.


mkr3j

Nov 10, 09 8:19

Post #170 of 397 (9599 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thanks for posting...how can this race call itself a legit m-dot race??


gholmes

Nov 10, 09 8:39

Post #171 of 397 (9540 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [psycholist] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
For the record, I didn't say anything about the yellow line (the aid station volunteers seemed so determined to get me to take a bottle at one point on the B2B course that I had to go across the yellow line to get away from them ... and there weren't any other bikes around. I think they were bored to death and wanted the thrill of handing me a bottle). But if I were the guy in the green and you did to me what I saw (or thought I saw) on that video, I'd be a little pissed off.

Regardless, those ARE awesome videos and damning evidence, both. Very cool. Very selfless of you to do that. I'm sure you could have had a much faster race if you weren't doing that (and carrying that extra gear).
Yep some of the aid stations the volunteers(which did an awesome job) were a bit far into the road especially when the big packs rolled through it was scarey.

didn't slow me down much I've been practicing last couple years used them in louisville(except the helmet cam) I went out too fast(you'd think after 29 ironman races I'd learn)
first 25 miles on bike then the head wind.
What you see is what the packs do I have to wait for them to all go by anyway and not get drawn into the group(which alot of folks use as an excuse) So I moved as far to right as I could
waited for them to go if they didn't keep going I'd have to pass them and on and on it would go except this time the head wind made it tough to keep passing them.
the cameras might have had a small aero disadvantage but Heck I wasn't concerned with that.. Yes I was 17 minutes slower than last years bike but the conditions had lot to do with that
plus lack of training post louisville with all the bad weather we had in those weeks.
I'm getting a new 1080p version of the cameras next with remote control and extra battery power.


snoots

Nov 10, 09 8:40

Post #172 of 397 (9533 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Maniacal] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Only 3...you should look at the video again. I only saw three that were not drafting. If they were 3 bike lengths apart per the rules that would have been a 10 minute video :)

I haven't yet watched the other videos (rear view, etc.) but I was talking about blatant and intentional drafting violations - not drafting, per se. I'm not oblivious to the difference, believe me, but I maintain my opinion that someone sitting up and not pedaling *may* not be intentionally drafting. People like to beleive that it is possible to maintain the 3 bike length rule in all cases, etc. but in reality it is not. People that are in the bars, clearly making use of a draft for their own advantage are guilty. People in a pack due to many of the common complaints (too many riders, narrow roads, turns, aid stations, etc.) *may* not be guilty. Or they *may* be. Not my call...


Ryoz

Nov 10, 09 8:44

Post #173 of 397 (9522 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Maniacal] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Why the F do we need more motorbikes? Just setup teams of spotters on the course. As a draft group passes start calling out the numbers over a 2 way, a mile down the road have more spotters who then check the group again to see who is still drafting and they all get screwed. This could all be done multiple times over the bike course with volunteers and would cost practically nothing. I will be the first to volunteer next year to sit on the bike course and call out numbers.
Geez: A couple of minutes for drafting is an absolute joke in a IM. Hummm Draft the ride and risk losing a few minutes while gaining 30 minutes on the run…….. I say if you get caught no KQ and a minimum of 10 minutes, 2nd time 20 more minutes, 3rd time DQ. Who needs the penalty tents, just let them keep riding collecting infringements until they are DQ’ed then pull them off the run.



Richard K

Nov 10, 09 9:02

Post #174 of 397 (9481 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Ryoz] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
. Who needs the penalty tents, just let them keep riding collecting infringements until they are DQ’ed then pull them off the run.
AGREED! But you need to be a true BASTARD about it and pull them off at mile 24 of the run!

That will teach the F**kers
Cheers...

Rich


msuguy512

Nov 10, 09 9:02

Post #175 of 397 (9481 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [mlinenb] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

did anybody notice the UFO?


Mom2Sean

Nov 10, 09 9:23

Post #176 of 397 (10575 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

It seems like you have spent a lot of energy and expense filming the cheating. I am unclear why you entered IM Florida, especially for the 10th time. It doesn't seem like you had any fun at all, and you clearly anticipated the drafting since you came prepared with a camera to film it. I am not saying that your anger is not justified or that the cheating is justified. I am just saying maybe you should find some events in which to participate that you can actually enjoy. I have a suggestion -- try Xterra. Jump on your mountain bike and avoid the peloton all together. The events are well-run, intensely competitive, physically challenging and one big party! Why waste your energy being angry at something that you can't control and that you know likely won't change?


h2ofun

Nov 10, 09 9:29

Post #177 of 397 (10562 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Mom2Sean] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Now, you have one great solution for the few folks who will never be happy with Triathlons anymore. They are a business. They are for the masses. 1980 is gone.
But, what fun would life be if one did not have something to complain about? :o)

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


tetsuoni

Nov 10, 09 9:36

Post #178 of 397 (10549 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Why a minute apart? Why not 10 seconds and smaller groups?
2015 American Zofingen Du is May 17.
R.I.P. Chris Gleason


psycholist

Nov 10, 09 9:38

Post #179 of 397 (10544 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Mom2Sean] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

The events are well-run, intensely competitive, physically challenging and one big party! Why waste your energy being angry at something that you can't control and that you know likely won't change?


I'd be inclined to agree with you except where Kona slots are concerned. I'd hate to think that somebody took a free ride in the jump seat for 112 and rode all the way to Kona. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt that these sort of packs were there to help the top overall finishers.

Also, I didn't sense any "anger" from the OP. I thought he was just reporting.


Mom2Sean

Nov 10, 09 9:51

Post #180 of 397 (10510 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [psycholist] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm just applying a little bit of logic. I don't think it's a big stretch to say that the original poster was motivated by anger over the drafting he has seen. As I said, I don't disagree with him that it exists or that he is entitled to be frustrated or angered over it. My only point is that there are other events out there where this is not an issue, and the original poster might be pleasantly surprised at how he feels about spending his money on race entry fees to participate in those races and enjoy them. If you are making an entire event about catching cheaters on film, my personal opinion is that you have missed what I would submit is at least an important part of participating in an amateur race -- having fun!!!


ttx_tri

Nov 10, 09 10:08

Post #181 of 397 (10474 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Here is another view.

http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related

Absolutely no excuse for some of those people!
I would love to run one of those cameras, anybody know what is being used?

Team R.A.C.C Core Member since 2013
Owner Speed Concept since 2011.


TriMike

Nov 10, 09 10:20

Post #182 of 397 (10448 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I wonder if someday these folks will come to realize they are just cheating themselves? Is the whole concept of the IM with a 112 ITT lost of them? I would feel I didn't get the "real" experience of an IM if I did this. I really don't understand this. I did the Vineman IM this summer...less than a 1000 entrants and you couldn't really draft if you wanted to. Finishing with honesty and integrity to the sport means more than saving a few minutes but I guess I am just old fashion (or maybe just old).


klehner

Nov 10, 09 10:26

Post #183 of 397 (10438 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
So the nex question is this: Do people want to pay $777 to race and be potentially draft legal, or pay $500 and race with it as is. From all accounts, people are upset that races are $500 now, I'm not sure how people would feel if it went to $777.
Maybe you blinked, but the fact that IM FL 2010 sold out in a day at over $500 might make you want to reconsider your statement above.
----------------------------------
Of course, with your ears stuffed with outrage cotton balls, all you heard was, rahrahra, govt comes to get your guns, rhahrahrah, stamp out your FREEEEEDOM! - slowguy


BDoughtie

Nov 10, 09 10:38

Post #184 of 397 (10406 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Med Tent Man] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Yes, people sign up for it, but will having the race be priced at $700+ make it appeal to the masses still? Thats the question that WTC has to ask itself. Obviously right now they have it set up perfectly to make alot of money. As a business it really doesnt make much sense for WTC to more or less take a chance at changing, just so people can feel like the IM race is "legit". $500 dollars is still viable for the masses, but at what point is it not viable? That's the point I'm making. Is it 200 extra dollars, 500 extra dollars, or only when a race costs $2k to race to become an IM will people not show up. I'm just not sure WTC wants to take that chance, especially with the cash cow they have now.

Dev's proposition to cut the course down to 1800 people, will have a direct impact on Participants, not WTC. So yes, at $500 at this point it sells out in minutes. I just dont think WTC wants to take teh business chance of potentially losing profit just so they can have a "non draft" race.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


(This post was edited by bad929 on Nov 10, 09 10:46)


dgunthert

Nov 10, 09 10:44

Post #185 of 397 (10377 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Surely you're not suggesting it would cost $400,000 to fix the drafting issue?


Deej

Nov 10, 09 10:45

Post #186 of 397 (10376 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Good stuff.

Maybe I missed this already explored in the thread, but is there a reason race marshals can't employ this technology more and then apply penalties retroactively (like the doping passport in cycling)? Just that risk alone would scare the bejeezus out of anyone drafting with intent or intentionally not correcting a clear violation. This doesn't mean the course and wave format don't have something to do with this too.

Head down, thumbs up, give'r


BDoughtie

Nov 10, 09 10:51

Post #187 of 397 (10350 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [dgunthert] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

How many competitors are on the course now? (I'm not sure the exact number, anyone know exactly)

2800 x $500 = $1.4 million WTC gets from competitors.

2500 x $500= $1.25 million WTC if it has 2500 competitors.



Dev's Solution: Cut races down to 1800 people

1800 x $500= $900,000 WTC would make if Dev's plan of 1800 competitors at the same cost as the race is now. Thats a net lose of 1/2 million dollars if they have 2800 competitors currently now.





Edit: I'm not trying to say that drafting wont get changed, nor am I trying to say Dev's solutions wont work. I just dont have my head in the sand to think that WTC will simply change the drafting issues without making the competitors pay for it. You want to have a race that is draft free, your going to have to pay for it, basically.


So at this point, if you want 1800 people on the course, for WTC to make the same profit as it does right now (assuming htey have 2800 sign up for the race); it's going to cost a racer $777 dollars.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


(This post was edited by bad929 on Nov 10, 09 11:09)


BLACKSHEEP

Nov 10, 09 11:02

Post #188 of 397 (10318 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I hear Ironman Florida is being renamed Cheatman Florida.

It's great to have proof, can we list all the names(Dan?)

It's too late to do anything about it now, it's a virus.
Over the past few years, many people(obviously) have entered the sport feeling drafting is acceptable as long as they try not to ....... just a little. A token resistance is all that is required.
It doesn't really matter any more, with the continued cheapening of the brand, IM is slowly sinking into the gutter. I feel sorry for the first timers/ life ambitioners. IM jumped the shark long ago.


DavidC

Nov 10, 09 11:06

Post #189 of 397 (10314 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Mom2Sean] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Your logic is pretty weak. Gholmes never said he was "making an entire event about catching cheaters on film" or that he did not have fun. Sometimes these events aren't very fun at all when one has to go out there and smash themselves to earn a Kona slot. Whether he was angry at the drafting is somewhat irrelevant. I appluad him for showing some initiative to highlight the problem instead of slinky away from it.


Learn

Nov 10, 09 11:18

Post #190 of 397 (10283 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Good job.

What I couldn't see were numbers, because we need to start posting names.

Then, when these individuals are googled in the future, they will be identified as 'cheaters.'
--
Matt Braynard
Braynard WebDev, Inc.
http://www.braynardwebdev.com
If You Can Imagine It, We Can Do It.


conehead

Nov 10, 09 11:20

Post #191 of 397 (10277 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [DavidC] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm actually in that footage - I'm the bike which you see almost immediately (Black Orbea with Reynolds disc in). I'd just worked my balls off to get past that enormous pelaton. I had to go on the wrong side of the road to do so at times. Having just got past them and finally at the front (with 3 guys hanging onto me as you see in the footage) a fricken aid station turns up!

Slowing down to re-stock I had all the damn work to do again! I passed 3 pelatons as large as this one.

What I'm pissed off about - is I'm in the footage, and I'm now tarred with the brush of being in a pelaton (alhtough you can clearly see me riding away from them). And the original poster talks about how 'they' came back past him after the aid station - so am I part of the 'they'?

I didn't draft, and can hold my head high - but I also did not ask to be filmed - I don't remember this guy coming up to me pre-race and asking if he could film me being drafted by 30 riders which he was then going to post on slowtwitch and youtube.

I flew all the way from the UK for this race, and whilst the drafting was shocking to me - the draft marshals did nothing and simply turned a blind eye. However - if I'd done the race 10 years in a row I would assume to know what to expect.


BDoughtie

Nov 10, 09 11:21

Post #192 of 397 (10274 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [dgunthert] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Surely you're not suggesting it would cost $400,000 to fix the drafting issue?

Yes. Look at my figures. WTC is a business. They arent goign to simply lower the participant list, and keep the same price. They may have to eventually, if the IM balloon finally pops. But at this point, WTC can chug along with making a good amount of money. They know what they have. WTC doenst know what it has, if they have to drop the particiaptn list, and in the process raising the price by 50%, to keep the same profit. At this point, the potential lost profit is too great for WTC to attempt to try and do anything to change the draftfest as it is now. Look at the race now, people acknowledge what it is, and it still sells out in 1 day. They have a goood thing right now, and they see no need to change it, because what is the alternative? Potential loss of profit? Basically WTC would be taking a chance, and as I see it now, it wouldnt make much sense to take a chance, when right now, their race is selling out each and every year.

So it basically comes down to this: How much are people willing to pay to race in a non draft race. Are you willing to pay $750+ to race IM Fl knowing you wont be in a draftfest? If so, than round up a petition of 1800, with everyone's CC numbers, and go to WTC. If not, than it's going to be hard to get WTC to change the format.


It's easy to come up with "solutions", but when you really delv into the solutions, there are consequences, that people seem to forget or dont mention. So when a solution is brought up, just make sure it's looked at from 360 degrees, so that the best and most feasible solution can be implemented.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


(This post was edited by bad929 on Nov 10, 09 11:28)


NateC

Nov 10, 09 11:27

Post #193 of 397 (10256 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [snoots] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Drafting is a penalty, yes. But I liken it more to hockey: falling over a stick does not a tripping penalty make. It is your responsibility to make every effort to avoid drafting, to not be caught in a drafting situation. I never said that we shouldn't have more marshals, nor that drafting shouldn't be a penalty, just that there needs to be room for interpretation - which, IMO, is what does happen, WHEN marshals spot drafting. Not everyone caught in a pack is happy about being there, or trying to draft, regardless of whether or not they get some advantage from it...

Your understanding of the rules of hockey is incorrect.

If my stick trips someone, intentional or not, it's a tripping call. Period. You are responsible for your own actions.

Same goes for drafting. Period.

What races do you marshall, I don't want to race there. You obviously don't give racers a level playing field.


(This post was edited by NateC on Nov 10, 09 12:02)


psycholist

Nov 10, 09 11:29

Post #194 of 397 (10248 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [BLACKSHEEP] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

If gholmes has any more videos to post, he should consider using that cheesy "Bad boys Bad boys ... whatcha gonna do ..." music from that Fox show.

I have a buddy who got busted for drafting at IMFL and spent 4 minutes in the penalty box at T2. I was wondering, is there any way this could actually be of benefit? Could someone run the marathon more than 4 minutes faster because they got a nice 4-minute rest forced on them? I'm not a runner. Don't know.

I just did a little fast math and, if drafting helped you average only 1/2 mph faster over the 112 ... say from 22.5 mph to 23.0 mph ... that would be over 6 minutes. Serve a 4 minute penalty and get a fresher start on your run? Doesn't sound like a bad deal to me.


BDoughtie

Nov 10, 09 11:33

Post #195 of 397 (10232 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [psycholist] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thats the whole point, and exactly why people draft. The benefit of drafting is greater than the penalty.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


paul_tx

Nov 10, 09 11:34

Post #196 of 397 (10231 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [djciii] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

"that is unbelievable...I bet there won't be drafting next year."

How old are you? Four?


oldandslow

Nov 10, 09 11:44

Post #197 of 397 (10193 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Stop fixating on the "1800" people solution, that's just one idea. Wave or time trial starts would not be very expensive to implement (at all), and would spread out the pack of potential drafters a great deal. Here is IMFL today: A flat course, ~2500 competitors, a mass start, ineffective enforcement, incentives to cheat (Kona slots, AG wins, PB's), and a history/mindset that drafting is acceptable. Of all of these factors, the easiest one to change is the mass start (Person with the brain of pull buoy could figure that out...). Then, work on the other factors (threaten to pull Kona slots, incorporate video enforcement, reduce the number of participants, etc.). Will anything be done? Time will tell....


(This post was edited by oldandslow on Nov 10, 09 11:45)


miwoodar

Nov 10, 09 11:44

Post #198 of 397 (10192 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Deej] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Awesome video.

I have a question. I've never done an on-road tri so please be patient with me.

Do you really think the persons in that video believed they were drafting/cheating or do you think they believed they were victims of a crowded course? I'm watching this video and playing through my mind how I would remove myself from illegal positions. It looks like a lose-lose situation for all. By looking at the math you can legally fit ~160 bikes per mile. Let's assume there are 300/mile in that video. Once you're engulfed, I don't see how it is possible to stay legal without giving up your race pace.

I like the penalty lap idea - much better than letting folks rest/stretch/hydrate in a shaded tent. Now I just need to figure out how to not get carded.


Deej

Nov 10, 09 11:46

Post #199 of 397 (10187 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [paul_tx] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

The only change to come next year is the Athlete's Guide will be updated to add no video recording devices allowed. There - problem solved: no video, didn't happen.

Head down, thumbs up, give'r


BDoughtie

Nov 10, 09 11:50

Post #200 of 397 (10178 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [oldandslow] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Fair enough. So lets throw out the "1800" participants, lets throw out the extra enforcement, lets throw out the extra "quiet" scooters.



It sounds like best viable option is the wave start. What is the feel for why WTC seems to be against wave starts? Is it just basically the "12 midnight" 17 hr time cutoff?

Are any IM's start with wave starts? I think IM Lville is the only TT start, correct?
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


GSchmitz

Nov 10, 09 11:53

Post #201 of 397 (9801 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Wow.... Thanks for the visual.

I registered for next year and immediately regret it. I'd rather have a slow race relative to the participants of the IMFl Group Ride but it looks like 3-4-5 abreast that extends pretty far. does not cheating mean you end up being the guy pulling that pack?


George Schmitz


M~

Nov 10, 09 11:58

Post #202 of 397 (9788 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [NateC] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Your understanding of the rules of hockey is incorrect.

If my stick trips someone, intentional or not, it's a tripping call. Period. You are responsible for your own actions.

not in any games I reffed. Now if you were to say that if your stick hits anyone in the helmet...ever. Then that is an automatic high stick penalty (in the minor leagues with the small tykes). But your interpretation of that rule wouldn't be accurate up here. Otherwise, you would have folks skating over to someone, jumping on their stick and falling down.


NateC

Nov 10, 09 12:02

Post #203 of 397 (9783 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [M~] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
In Reply To:
Your understanding of the rules of hockey is incorrect.

If my stick trips someone, intentional or not, it's a tripping call. Period. You are responsible for your own actions.

not in any games I reffed. Now if you were to say that if your stick hits anyone in the helmet...ever. Then that is an automatic high stick penalty (in the minor leagues with the small tykes). But your interpretation of that rule wouldn't be accurate up here. Otherwise, you would have folks skating over to someone, jumping on their stick and falling down.

No, incorrect, jumping on an opponent's stick would not result in the opponent getting a tripping call, you would get an unsportsmanlike conduct call. They have written the rules both ways.

If the puck is in an opponent's feet, and I go after it with my stick causing him to fall, it's tripping. Those are the rules in the U.S. In Canada, your rules are enforced much more to the spirit of the game BUT I've seen that same call made dozens of times.


tom1376

Nov 10, 09 12:02

Post #204 of 397 (9783 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [miwoodar] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I have the same exact question - are they victims of an over-crowded course and how do you keep your pace and stay away from it? The hard part, if you are going faster, is getting through the group w/o crossing the double yellow line. That's the part that concerns me. Obviously, it can be done, but it would not be fun. I've run into this among slower riders several times when my wave (35-39) starts later and usually it's only 3-4 people, which isn't bad. In this video, there's a lot more to deal with. So not only are people drafting, they are also making it more difficult for others on the course.


bluemonkeytri

Nov 10, 09 12:04

Post #205 of 397 (9768 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [tom1376] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Yes, they are victims of an over-crowded course, because we are all victims. No one is ever responsible for what they do, someone else is always to blame. :)


eganski

Nov 10, 09 12:07

Post #206 of 397 (9761 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [psycholist] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

There have been quite a few Ironman World Champions crowned after serving drafting penalties. Off the top of my head-Paula-Newby Fraser, Natascha Badmann, Nina Craft (later DQ'd for doping), Luc Van Lierde, and Tim DeBoom.
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ttx_tri

Nov 10, 09 12:08

Post #207 of 397 (9759 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [tom1376] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

completely close the road to all but IM traffic. that way they can use the entire road.

I would like to see how that would fly in the Peoples Republic of Madison, a lot of villages on the outskirts of town hate the race already.

Option, pay the draft marshals by the infraction. Give them a camera so they haveto prove it if questioned and if it is an actual infraction they get credit and paid. Stiffen the penalties for the athletes, 10 minutes on the first, DQ on the second. I know crazy talk!

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BDoughtie

Nov 10, 09 12:18

Post #208 of 397 (9734 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [ttx_tri] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

completely close the road to all but IM traffic. that way they can use the entire road.

How much would that cost?


Option, pay the draft marshals by the infraction. Give them a camera so they haveto prove it if questioned and if it is an actual infraction they get credit and paid.

Are marshals different than offiicals? If not, my only concern with this idea is that Officials (the ones that are getting paid), should get paid simply for being there. They should get a base pay in addition to this pay per infraction. You can argue whether or not they do enough now, but I'm guessing if you really want to get people to do an effective job, you have to pay them besides actually what they report during the race. (there are some officials who are in probation periods and may not be paid, but for the officials who do tri's and get paid, they deserve a base salary).

Stiffen the penalties for the athletes, 10 minutes on the first, DQ on the second.

I love that idea, not sure why it's not a stiffer penalty.
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summitt

Nov 10, 09 12:39

Post #209 of 397 (9690 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [conehead] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I can tell by your run time you didn't draft. bike time = run time. When you post on a forum you open yourself up. However, you can hold your head high as you were leading the peloton. However, I can not say that for the guys behind you.

As for being posted on the internet and youtube, that's just a reflection on society and one of the negatives of the internet. Nothing seems private anymore and people are quick to judge based on a 2:00 minute video. Some were cheating, some were leading, some were trying to get out of the pack and some were trying to ride legally behind the pack. Too many people on a flat course and nobody is willing to give or not much of a deterent to give once the peloton forms.

Hope you had a good time and enjoyed Florida.


sdmike

Nov 10, 09 12:49

Post #210 of 397 (9663 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [ttx_tri] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Easy solution. 2 waves.
wave 1), the "event" wave starts at 6:30, white caps, white numbers.
wave 2), the "podium" wave starts at 9:00, yellow caps, yellow numbers.

Same cost, same rules, same midnight cutoff, only kona slots and prizes for wave 2.
Officials focus 80% of their effort on wave 2.
I'm guessing wave 1 is a lot bigger than wave 2. If it isn't the first year, push the wave 2 start out an extra 1/2 hour/year till it is.


djciii

Nov 10, 09 12:53

Post #211 of 397 (9649 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [paul_tx] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

You are trolling on the wrong site if you are looking for dates....from all I have seen from you I am sure that is your desired age
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snoots

Nov 10, 09 13:07

Post #212 of 397 (9600 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [NateC] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
In Reply To:
Drafting is a penalty, yes. But I liken it more to hockey: falling over a stick does not a tripping penalty make. It is your responsibility to make every effort to avoid drafting, to not be caught in a drafting situation. I never said that we shouldn't have more marshals, nor that drafting shouldn't be a penalty, just that there needs to be room for interpretation - which, IMO, is what does happen, WHEN marshals spot drafting. Not everyone caught in a pack is happy about being there, or trying to draft, regardless of whether or not they get some advantage from it...

Your understanding of the rules of hockey is incorrect.

If my stick trips someone, intentional or not, it's a tripping call. Period. You are responsible for your own actions.

Same goes for drafting. Period.

What races do you marshall, I don't want to race there. You obviously don't give racers a level playing field.

Yes, you're responsible for your own actions; no, it's not a tripping call, period. It's a judgement call by the official, especially when both players are going for the puck at the same time. A 'trip' that happens accidentally should not get a penalty, just like drafting that happens WITHOUT INTENT shouldn't incur a penalty. As a matter of fact, we should call it something else... maybe "I got WTCed in Florida when I was sucked up in a pack..." ;) I, for one, WOULD do IMFL again; it's fast, it's fun, and I'm only in it for myself...

bry-


LoriT

Nov 10, 09 13:08

Post #213 of 397 (9600 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Letters people....letters. Hard copy-snail mailed.....if you paid for this race and didn't like what you saw & want to be heard:

Florida Office:
Ironman World Headquarters
World Triathlon Corporation
2701 North Rocky Point Drive
Suite 1250
Tampa, FL 33607
(813) 868-5940 Phone
(813) 868-5930 Fax


psycholist

Nov 10, 09 13:13

Post #214 of 397 (9579 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bluemonkeytri] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Yes, they are victims of an over-crowded course, because we are all victims. No one is ever responsible for what they do, someone else is always to blame. :)

Your smiley face is duly noted. I'm all for accountability. However, I do feel sorry for the slower swimmer/faster cyclist who might have happened upon one of the filmed groups and might have been trying desperately to get through or past the group. I think it's fair to ask if there aren't more blocking violations in evidence on those videos than there are drafting violations. I've yet to attend a race where I didn't see WAY more blocking than drafting (though I've never attended an IM-branded event). You're supposed to make your pass and then get the f__k out of the way!

(This post was edited by psycholist on Nov 10, 09 13:14)


JimmyRiccitello

Nov 10, 09 13:27

Post #215 of 397 (9553 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Afleet Alex] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

sometimes Jim Riccitello the wtc head referee is on this board. Jim, this is a disgrace. please explain how it happens on your watch. please also explain why the rules variations for wtc events ask for a lesser time penalty for drafting? usat rules say 6 mins for first offense and 12 minutes for second offense. wtc is less. why?

as long as races fill up there won't be any change. what happens when the equity group sells it in a few years, any ideas?

First of all - excellent video coverage from the OP ... and welcome to my world.

A couple comments - and not all of them directed at your post:
  • I am not an event director - just a person hired to watch for rule violations.
  • My job is not to prevent drafting, but call it when I see it.
  • There were 14 draft marshals on the course.
  • 190 people visited the 3 penalty tents.
  • We had a positive affect on many of the groups referenced in the video - I wish someone would have documented that.
  • We can't be everywhere.
  • There were PLENTY of athletes who raced fairly in IMFL - a majority.
  • We did not catch everyone.
  • The time penalties for drafting were in place before I was conned into this job.
  • I will continue to explore ways to discourage drafting and ways to better enforce various rule violations.
  • The draft marshals did a good job. The disgrace lies with those who choose to break the rules.
Riccitello
Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com


styrrell

Nov 10, 09 13:32

Post #216 of 397 (9530 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Deej] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I don't think a solution that effects the bottom line will be considered. If drafting is penalized to the letter of the rule, there would be lots of irate customers.

Styrrell
Styrrell


mcycle

Nov 10, 09 13:36

Post #217 of 397 (9510 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [psycholist] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
If gholmes has any more videos to post, he should consider using that cheesy "Bad boys Bad boys ... whatcha gonna do ..." music from that Fox show.

I have a buddy who got busted for drafting at IMFL and spent 4 minutes in the penalty box at T2. I was wondering, is there any way this could actually be of benefit? Could someone run the marathon more than 4 minutes faster because they got a nice 4-minute rest forced on them? I'm not a runner. Don't know.

I just did a little fast math and, if drafting helped you average only 1/2 mph faster over the 112 ... say from 22.5 mph to 23.0 mph ... that would be over 6 minutes. Serve a 4 minute penalty and get a fresher start on your run? Doesn't sound like a bad deal to me.
I do group century rides in the summer. We can avg 25 mph for the 100 miles on flat to rolling courses. If I draft the entire time- my HR will be in the 120s on these courses (which are harder/hillier than the IM FL course). If I ride the same intensity- non-drafting- my speed might be around 22 mph. So- a 3 mph bump is 37 minutes- and you may or may not even get a penalty. Factor in that you would be relatively fresh versus very fatigued- and the answer is pretty clear and I'm not surprised to see the drafting. The racers obviously don't have the ethics or they have the attitude- every one else is doing it- so it makes it okay, or they want to get into Kona, or ???


devashish_paul

Nov 10, 09 13:52

Post #218 of 397 (9454 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Sorry, my solution would be to reduce the field to 1800 and jack up entry fees by the same proportion. Let's face it, people will may 30-50% more if it means a more fair race.

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styrrell

Nov 10, 09 13:53

Post #219 of 397 (9449 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thanks for posting Jim. One suggestion, I'd love to see the penalties stay as is, but make it so that you can't get a Kona spot if you get a drafting penalty. I suspect that Kona slots are big part of the problem, people get sucked into drafting because for many if you don't draft, you don't qualify.

And while I'm at it I wonder if anyone will post a lisdt of Kona Qualifier who got drafting penalties, I suspect more than a few.

Styrrell
Styrrell


M~

Nov 10, 09 13:57

Post #220 of 397 (9434 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [styrrell] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I am with Dev on this. Time penalties are no penalties. Make a person run a lap and really put the hurt on them before they go out and run the marathon. THAT is a penalty.


BDoughtie

Nov 10, 09 13:59

Post #221 of 397 (9426 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Dev, I respect the hell out of your views, cus you have alot of knowledge and experience, and my views werent ever to say they couldnt work. Just more or less show both sides of the arguement.


My only concern with that is this: Will WTC take a chance on changing the format like that? Would they take the chance that they may or may not sell out. What happens if they only sell 85% of capacity? Thats a lose of revenue, and that's the concern I see it. I dont see how a business will take a chance, especially when they have the gravy train already established. Now if WTC was faltering each year with selling out, I could see WTC wanting to make a change. But they are selling out in a matter of hours, and I'm not sure they go away from that.

Let's face it, it is all a business. So the only gurantee way to get that idea passed is to go to WTC with 1800 people's checks to show guranteed money to WTC. But because of the "chance" that you may not be able to get 1800 people's money, I just dont see WTC going for something like that.
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devashish_paul

Nov 10, 09 14:04

Post #222 of 397 (9408 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Jimmy, while we understand you were conned into the job, the way it is perceived, is that you are the CEO of rule enforcement. Rightly or wrongly the situation at hand at races, ends up being connected to you, even though you have no say in the rules and at times have limited enforcement resources. Its

We the athletes who want a clean race, working with the likes of you can make a difference. See my solution above for laps of shame....1 mile for first offence out of T2 before you can start the run, second offence 3 miles. For most they are looking at 8-40 minutes right out of the gate PLUS shredding their legs BEFORE starting the run.

The current problem is that the punishment is not a sufficient deterrent.

And for those who don't drop back when passed and immediately accelerate to try and repass and try to ride away from peletons, you are only making the problem worse. The moment you jack it up to 350W, the guy following you can keep up doing 20% or more less. You pull for 30 seconds and notice you can't drop anyone and the peleton just had a 350W pull with everyone sitting in at 250, 220, 170, 150W. Next the honest guy at the back thinks he can blow by the peleton and does a pull at 350W....guess what, the rest of the peleton can keep up. Suddenly the front of the peleton is moving at 350+W while the back is only using 150W. You get the picture. The front of the peleton is moving at an obsenely fast pace as each successive guy does an unsuccessful pull. Each person that tries to surge and drop the peleton is making the problem worse.

If a stronger rider pulls up to you, don't jack up your pace to pass him. You are required to drop back 5 lengths and you'll see that if I guy is riding 250W and you're only doing 220, no way you are passing this guy. You might do some cat and mouse of a few miles and blow your race, but let the stronger guy go. If you don't let the stronger guy go, you now have the start of the formation of a peleton.

If everyone would just drop back 5 lengths when passed, then the guy in the front is doing his real IM or half IM race pace, the the line up of guys riding equally spaced 5 lengths back each are doing their race effort.

For a sample, see the videos of the Kona pro race. I nice legally spaced line up of guys going at a steady pace.

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coloradotri

Nov 10, 09 14:05

Post #223 of 397 (9405 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

gholmes, I didnt read every reply sorry but it seems to me from what the riders are doing you are coming up on an aid station. People are slowing and taking out bottles some are staying at full speed which makes it bunch. Do you have video of a big pace group riding full out and not just coasting and bunched before an aid station.

(I didnt do the race, it just seems like a skewed piece of video if this is all you are showing)


LoriT

Nov 10, 09 14:10

Post #224 of 397 (9393 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

It seems that over the years the number of athletes allowed on a given course goes up--whether the course can handle it or not. I recall hearing at the start of IMC one year the announcer boasting about it being the largest mass swim start in all of ironman history. (greaat)

This is huge money, I get that. But why do they need to keep increasing the profit by increasing the entry fee and/or increasing the participants? I see this largely as a management issue--or we would be talking about other IM courses being just as bad. I don't see that IMFL racers are any different than other IM racers.... it just happens to be the course layout & terrain, the number of racers, management factors, and a few bad apples (and some that just happened to be in the wrong spot).

I think they could create change and alleviate the problem if they wanted to.


devashish_paul

Nov 10, 09 14:14

Post #225 of 397 (9375 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

My take is that if they jack up Clearwater to $500 vs $300 it still sells out...same for Ironman Florida. Then they can implement a plan with fewer participants and less drafting. When you are spending $600 for hotels, the same on airfare, probably 4x that in equipment, then there is money spent on nutrition and perhaps coaching, well, when you add it all up $200-$300 increase in fee will not kill anyone.

It's like golfing a round at pebble beach for $450 and paying $400 for the hotel and $200 on breakfast and dinner. You don't do it every weekend, you likely don't even do it once a year. When you're putting out that much a few hundred is in the noise.

I realize that this sucks if you are tight for finances, but the sport is already pretty expensive, but in my view cheaper than downhill skiing or golf and if you look at the demographic in the 30-54 age bracket that makes up the bulk of triathlon, it is pretty well the same thing as downhill skiing. Money in the end is not an issue. Guys will open the wallet for the sport and for the lifestyle.

That being said, I can BET YOU that the local communities in Panama City or Clearwater want MORE athletes not less....cause it means more hotel nites and meals in restaurants.

Dev

cervelo.com (P3) |infinitnutrition.ca | bushtukah.com
Whiteface Hill Climb + Epicman Lake Placid 3k/180k/21k June 5/6 2014, Epicman Tremblant 10k/260k/42.2k 11-13 July 2014


Fleck

Nov 10, 09 14:18

Post #226 of 397 (9472 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

One thing that Jimmy did not mention is that he is totally dependent on volunteer marshals and motorcycle drivers for those marshals to ride on. Often there are more marshals than their are motos available. But sometimes marshals are in short supply as well. Jimmy said he had 14 at IMFL, but I know that he needs more than that. For example there were 25 marshals on motos at IMH. At a race like IMFL, my best guess is that you would need that many or more. However, perhaps not enough motos showed up or that's all the marshals that were available.

Generally speaking on a 112 mile bike course with a race field spread out over 40+ miles, the more marshals the better the coverage is going to be and the cleaner the race is going to be. Just being around riders is often enough of a deterrent to get people to follow the rules.

So here's an idea: If you are really this upset about the drafting - volunteer to be a marshal and if you know someone in a race community where there is a 70.3 or IM race, that has a motorcycle, make them volunteer to drive. This is one thing were, more is more!! :)

Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

(This post was edited by Fleck on Nov 10, 09 14:41)


Seminole

Nov 10, 09 14:22

Post #227 of 397 (9467 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [LoriT] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

If the bike route took a left on Hwy 20, then a right on Hwy 81, the terrain would help reduce drafting.


h2ofun

Nov 10, 09 14:23

Post #228 of 397 (9461 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Jim, great job at trying to do the impossible.

But, these minority comments on ST are a joke. This is a business. With 1 day sell outs, in this economy, WTC is doing a killer job!! I would NOT change a thing!

I would always get these type of minority comments when I was the RD of the LOP race. On some they were good inputs and I tried to change stuff. But, if I am the RD of the IMFL
race, I see nothing to change since 99% of the folks could care less about this ego stuff a few bitch about. I believe a number of the rules are 20 years out of date. They may have
been great when there were few racers, and the ego's were there. Now, the sport is totally different, which I love. Bottom line, I have NO respect for a person who signs up for a race
KNOWING what is going to happen, and then bitches about it. I will never consider Clearwater since why would I spend all that time and money to be in a draft fest. Now clearly many could care less and that is great.

I still think WTC should start with a clean piece of paper, and see what rules make sense NOW to use. I still believe just getting rid of the drafting rules like the ITU does makes the most sense since it is, and will continue to happen forever. Does this mean we might need new rules for aero bars, etc, maybe.

Again, thanks for doing a no win job!!!

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
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Bell Head

Nov 10, 09 14:23

Post #229 of 397 (9460 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me like the race organizers are opening themselves up to a big lawsuit.

Does this video indicate negligence? I don't know, but if somebody goes down at the front of one of those big packs and takes a few dozen people with him, I'm sure some would consider this negligence and be looking for a lawyer. After all, the people in that pack are the ones looking for a free ride.
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trvfsub2

Nov 10, 09 14:26

Post #230 of 397 (9446 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [conehead] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

U SHOULD be DQ'd for crossing the center line, so go cry some where else.


Kagemusha

Nov 10, 09 14:27

Post #231 of 397 (9445 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [conehead] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

One thing you definitely deserve a "pat on the back for" is moving over to the right following your pass. There was that big shoulder on this road that appeared to be under-utilized by the people riding near you and passing you.

Your post also points out that there is an aid station coming up within moments of the time this video covers. This might explain at least some (though not all) of the congestion and sitting up that we see in the video.


bos615

Nov 10, 09 14:30

Post #232 of 397 (9437 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

That rocks Gary, although I did see worse packs


p2k2001

Nov 10, 09 14:32

Post #233 of 397 (9430 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thank you for catching the 190 people. That sounds like an unprecedented number of violations. Perhaps this will act as a deterrent for next year.


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psycholist

Nov 10, 09 14:42

Post #234 of 397 (9403 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [p2k2001] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Thank you for catching the 190 people. That sounds like an unprecedented number of violations. Perhaps this will act as a deterrent for next year.

If you look back at one of my earlier posts where I did a little math on the time savings potential of drafting versus the cost of getting a penalty, and if you read some of the replies it generated, it would be clear that, even if you get caught drafting, there's almost no downside. You're still going to come out way ahead. So at present, the threat of getting caught and getting a penalty is not a meaningful deterrent.


Bmanners

Nov 10, 09 14:45

Post #235 of 397 (9389 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [psycholist] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Like someone said for each offense add 5k on the run third offense DQ. That will stop it a bit.
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Wanksta

Nov 10, 09 14:46

Post #236 of 397 (9387 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [psycholist] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Those videos are PRICELESS!!! Thanks for sharing and getting everyone fired up! I think Louisville is very similar, at least that first 20 in through the park....after that, it clears out. No excuse for these guys.

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JimmyRiccitello

Nov 10, 09 14:46

Post #237 of 397 (9386 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Jimmy, while we understand you were conned into the job, the way it is perceived, is that you are the CEO of rule enforcement. Rightly or wrongly the situation at hand at races, ends up being connected to you, even though you have no say in the rules and at times have limited enforcement resources. Its

We the athletes who want a clean race, working with the likes of you can make a difference. See my solution above for laps of shame....1 mile for first offence out of T2 before you can start the run, second offence 3 miles. For most they are looking at 8-40 minutes right out of the gate PLUS shredding their legs BEFORE starting the run.

The current problem is that the punishment is not a sufficient deterrent.

And for those who don't drop back when passed and immediately accelerate to try and repass and try to ride away from peletons, you are only making the problem worse. The moment you jack it up to 350W, the guy following you can keep up doing 20% or more less. You pull for 30 seconds and notice you can't drop anyone and the peleton just had a 350W pull with everyone sitting in at 250, 220, 170, 150W. Next the honest guy at the back thinks he can blow by the peleton and does a pull at 350W....guess what, the rest of the peleton can keep up. Suddenly the front of the peleton is moving at 350+W while the back is only using 150W. You get the picture. The front of the peleton is moving at an obsenely fast pace as each successive guy does an unsuccessful pull. Each person that tries to surge and drop the peleton is making the problem worse.

If a stronger rider pulls up to you, don't jack up your pace to pass him. You are required to drop back 5 lengths and you'll see that if I guy is riding 250W and you're only doing 220, no way you are passing this guy. You might do some cat and mouse of a few miles and blow your race, but let the stronger guy go. If you don't let the stronger guy go, you now have the start of the formation of a peleton.

If everyone would just drop back 5 lengths when passed, then the guy in the front is doing his real IM or half IM race pace, the the line up of guys riding equally spaced 5 lengths back each are doing their race effort.

For a sample, see the videos of the Kona pro race. I nice legally spaced line up of guys going at a steady pace.[/quote]
Dev-

I wasn't literally conned into the job - but you knew that.

Everything you say is true and I promise I/we are working on it. I see it (and saw it) from your perspective.

And not to steal your thunder regarding your "laps of shame" idea, but it was something I brought up at the beginning of my tenure, based on feedback from some Euro events that currently use a penalty lap system. Slowman even offered to sponsor the penalty lap and provide an incentive for the fastest penalty lap. Ultimately we chose the penalty tent system so that we can take a penalized athlete out of the race close to where the infraction happened and in hopes that we affect groups that form and prevent groups from growing bigger and bigger. In my opinion, if we enforce the penalties at the end of the bike, we will have bigger groups and more of them.

I'm for stiffer fines - but not so much that you discourage refs from making calls. I like USAT's time penalties for long distance races.

I'm glad you brought up the pro race in Kona. The male Ironman pros are an example of how well the system works when most of those involved take personal responsibility. I can leave a group of pros that are legally spaced and return 30' later to find them the same distance. This is not unique to Kona, where enhanced media coverage is an added deterrent - the same applied for the large pro men field in IMFL - where much less was at stake than in Kona and less people were watching (draft marshals and media). I hope that more people take notice of the pro men and act accordingly.

Thanks for the input and I'm listening.

JR

Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com


psycholist

Nov 10, 09 14:52

Post #238 of 397 (9365 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [mlinenb] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I do group century rides in the summer. We can avg 25 mph for the 100 miles on flat to rolling courses. If I draft the entire time- my HR will be in the 120s on these courses (which are harder/hillier than the IM FL course). If I ride the same intensity- non-drafting- my speed might be around 22 mph. So- a 3 mph bump is 37 minutes- and you may or may not even get a penalty. Factor in that you would be relatively fresh versus very fatigued- and the answer is pretty clear and I'm not surprised to see the drafting.

Mark,

I do the same kinds of rides and I know the potential time savings of drafting is well beyond the .5 mph I used in my calculation. The reason I used it, is that I assumed even the cheats don't draft in those packs all the time at events like IMFL. Maybe I'm wrong about that. I assume you ride along, a pack comes along, you grab it for a while. Everyone starts to feel a little guilty. Folks who are bottling things up start to move over. Things spread out and slow down again. And so on. I guess I have to ask. Are these draft packs like one huge peloton that hangs together from start to finish with people sharing pulls at the front and with rotating pacelines and all? Are people working for the benefit of the group or are they just taking advantage of it until they can get clear of it? I know it's a violation in either case, but if they're working together for mutual benefit, then that's pretty darned outrageous.

Call me naive.
Bob C.

The "science" on any matter can never be settled until every possible variable is taken into account.


p2k2001

Nov 10, 09 14:55

Post #239 of 397 (9355 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'd use "Loser" by Beck as a soundtrack.


_______________________________________________
you know my name, look up my number
_______________________________________________


BDoughtie

Nov 10, 09 15:07

Post #240 of 397 (9330 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
sometimes Jim Riccitello the wtc head referee is on this board. Jim, this is a disgrace. please explain how it happens on your watch. please also explain why the rules variations for wtc events ask for a lesser time penalty for drafting? usat rules say 6 mins for first offense and 12 minutes for second offense. wtc is less. why?

as long as races fill up there won't be any change. what happens when the equity group sells it in a few years, any ideas?

First of all - excellent video coverage from the OP ... and welcome to my world.

A couple comments - and not all of them directed at your post:
  • I am not an event director - just a person hired to watch for rule violations.
  • My job is not to prevent drafting, but call it when I see it.
  • There were 14 draft marshals on the course.
  • 190 people visited the 3 penalty tents.
  • We had a positive affect on many of the groups referenced in the video - I wish someone would have documented that.
  • We can't be everywhere.
  • There were PLENTY of athletes who raced fairly in IMFL - a majority.
  • We did not catch everyone.
  • The time penalties for drafting were in place before I was conned into this job.
  • I will continue to explore ways to discourage drafting and ways to better enforce various rule violations.
  • The draft marshals did a good job. The disgrace lies with those who choose to break the rules.
Riccitello

This sounds like the perfect WTC public announcement WTC should put out when people complain about their event (all the while WTC is laughing to the bank at how each event continues to sell out).


You should go into public relations, and get out of the headache that is officiating! :)
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


(This post was edited by bad929 on Nov 10, 09 15:27)


JimmyRiccitello

Nov 10, 09 15:17

Post #241 of 397 (9315 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Dave- Thanks for the thanks.

In Reply To:
But, these minority comments on ST are a joke. This is a business. With 1 day sell outs, in this economy, WTC is doing a killer job!! I would NOT change a thing!

I would always get these type of minority comments when I was the RD of the LOP race. On some they were good inputs and I tried to change stuff. But, if I am the RD of the IMFL
race, I see nothing to change since 99% of the folks could care less about this ego stuff a few bitch about. I believe a number of the rules are 20 years out of date. They may have
been great when there were few racers, and the ego's were there. Now, the sport is totally different, which I love. Bottom line, I have NO respect for a person who signs up for a race
KNOWING what is going to happen, and then bitches about it. I will never consider Clearwater since why would I spend all that time and money to be in a draft fest. Now clearly many could care less and that is great.

I still think WTC should start with a clean piece of paper, and see what rules make sense NOW to use. I still believe just getting rid of the drafting rules like the ITU does makes the most sense since it is, and will continue to happen forever. Does this mean we might need new rules for aero bars, etc, maybe.[/quote]I'm not sure I know where you're coming from - but let me attempt a response:
  • You say, "I would NOT change a thing," but then you say "I still think WTC should start with a clean piece of paper, and see what rules make sense NOW to use." Pick one.
  • I don't mind people complaining if they feel the level of officiating they expected was not met. I can handle that.
  • I hear you though - some races are more prone to drafting than others - and it's not hard to figure out which ones.
  • ITU age-group races are still non-drafting (technically).
JR



Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com


JimmyRiccitello

Nov 10, 09 15:31

Post #242 of 397 (9268 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:

This sounds like the perfect WTC public announcement WTC would put out when people complain about their event (all the while WTC is laughing to the bank at how each event continues to sell out).


You should go into public relations, and get out of the headache that is officiating! :)[/quote]Trust me- they don't pay me enough to kiss @ss.

JR

PS- are you hiring? :)

Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com


oldandslow

Nov 10, 09 15:33

Post #243 of 397 (9262 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

First thanks for responding to this thread, and for the impossible task you do. Here are some questions that have arisen:

Why doesn't WTC demand wave or time trial starts for the races with the most egregious examples of drafting/blocking? As a first step, it seems like a no-brainer (to reduce the rider density and spread out riders of similar abilities).

Given the enormous advantage to be gained from drafting, do you think the penalties are severe enough?

Who should we contact at WTC to complain (and would it matter one iota)?


tridork

Nov 10, 09 15:33

Post #244 of 397 (9256 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
I've uploaded my first video of the pelotons at ironman florida this less than a minute section is about 34 miles into the race.
This is from my helmet cam. I have video from the handheld olympus(you see in my hands in video) as well as one mounted under my front aero bar and a rear seat post mounted camera I hope to post later as well as some worse packs than this one later on as well as this same pack after I passed them going through the upcoming aid station then they repassed me again.
Been wanting to do this for years and worked out the kinks at ironman louisville with the cameras so enjoy even though you won't see this kind of blatant drafting at louisville.

I tried to find an appropriate sound track using youtubes audio swap but they didn't have "your cheatin heart" by hank williams.

More to come...(this was my 10th ironman florida so I've been there enough to see plenty of drafting.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbLbHfj7CNY


Holy freakin' Moly!

If I wasn't crying right now, I would be laughing.

Might be time for us to give up on draft busting.........NOT!

Time for better enforcement. Yeah, I know it's hard, but we as a sport, have to do better. Surely we can find some way. At least good video like this is an excellent starting point.

Maybe offer your assistance to officials with your video technique etc, to help them as much as possible.

What is your video setup and how much did it cost to set up? How long to get it right and of course, since this is ST, how much does it weigh?

TriDork

"Happiness is a myth. All you can hope for is to get laid once in a while, drunk once in a while and to eat chocolate every day"


JimmyRiccitello

Nov 10, 09 15:35

Post #245 of 397 (9252 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [p2k2001] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Thank you for catching the 190 people. That sounds like an unprecedented number of violations. Perhaps this will act as a deterrent for next year.[/quote]
You're very welcome. Hopefully we will have twice as many marshals next year. That will help a lot.

JR

Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com


BDoughtie

Nov 10, 09 15:39

Post #246 of 397 (9234 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Not saying you'll kiss ass. I'm saying they'll use your own words to justify/give cause for why they wont ever change the race format. When someone complains, they will simply say, "Our lead official reports": drafting isnt an major issue, the majority race clean, we busted nearly 200 racers, that the officials are doing a great job.

I dont think it really bothers them, but just in the off chance that people call/write/email them to complain/question drafting, they will simply use your stats to show that drafting is being handled properly.



BTW, thanks for you time and effort. I'm in no way saying you and the officials arent doing enough, or that this is the officials fault. I think the biggest solution, is getting more people out there to course marshall because I dont think WTC wants to change the current format of the race now. Thanks for doing a tireless and tough job. I'm going to become an official next year, and hopefully can improve the sport with the help of everyone in the sport.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


(This post was edited by bad929 on Nov 10, 09 16:04)


JimmyRiccitello

Nov 10, 09 15:57

Post #247 of 397 (9197 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [oldandslow] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Why doesn't WTC demand wave or time trial starts for the races with the most egregious examples of drafting/blocking? As a first step, it seems like a no-brainer (to reduce the rider density and spread out riders of similar abilities). I've seen similar groups in wave start races. I like TT starts and wish there were more of them - both as an athlete and official. However, maybe tradition has something to do with the fact there aren't more (speculating). I also think it's tougher, from an operational point of view - but this is not my area of expertise.

Given the enormous advantage to be gained from drafting, do you think the penalties are severe enough? I think stiffer penalties would help - but not so stiff that you discourage refs from making calls.

Who should we contact at WTC to complain (and would it matter one iota)? My personal opinion is that constructive criticism gets better results than complaining - but sometimes complaining feels better. Suggest solutions. I've had good results with Ironman using this approach. Try: athleteservices@ironman.com.

JR
Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com


Rich Strauss

Nov 10, 09 16:02

Post #248 of 397 (9177 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [imf1271] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
There aren't more motors because the organizer is too cheap.

Wrong. The moto's are volunteers. The race kicks about $20 to the drivers, for gas, plus we get a t-shirt and a sammich. I've been a moto-driver for about 5 x IM's, WF, and CaliHalf. In the races I've moto'ed, several bikes have gone out on the course without an official.

In my experience, the weaklink in the officialsonbikes chain is the lack of volunteer race officials. For all of the talk I see race after race about drafting, the fact that over a thousand athletes are going to these races to volunteer so they get registration preference the next day, you'd think there would be 3 officials for every bike and that Jimmy would be turning officials away. Not so at all.

You can bitch about the problem race after race in a forum, or you could show up to a race and volunteer to fix the problem as a race official. Anyone reading this forum could do it, it's a blast, and you'll gain a very cool perspective of the race.

------------------------------
Rich Strauss
Endurance Nation Triathlon Coaching
Team Opens early January '14, Join our Waiting List


JimmyRiccitello

Nov 10, 09 16:13

Post #249 of 397 (9146 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Not saying you'll kiss ass. I'm saying they'll use your own words to justify/give cause for why they wont ever change the race format. When someone complains, they will simply say, "Our lead official reports": drafting isnt an major issue, the majority race clean, we busted nearly 200 racers, that the officials are doing a great job.[/quote]
Drafting was a major issue in FL, and I would never report otherwise. The "majority race clean" comment was meant to indicate that there are righteous competitors out there, and not to imply that drafting is not a problem in IMFL.

Hello! Did you watch the video?:)

I'm simply stating that I will work within the system to do the best job I can do.

I get what you're saying and thanks for your comments. Without sincerely interested people - like most of those responding here - non-drafting tri will fade away. I don't want that.

JR



Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com


BDoughtie

Nov 10, 09 16:38

Post #250 of 397 (9108 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Hello! Did you watch the video?:)


WTC's answer will be: "IF only the people in the penalty tent were on video tape, people would be more understanding".

I realize every year WTC will attempt to make things better. WTC and the officials will work on things, yet it'll be the same thing. Mass start, not enough officials, and lots of drafting. It is what it is.


I guess at this point, I've finally wised up to what this is. It's a business. IM FL is a draftfest that sells out every year, fills PC with people for week. Makes the local business happy, makes the competitors (it seems the majority) happy because they can do a fast race. It makes no sense for WTC to even try and attempt to change things. It'll change things when the money stops coming in. Not anytime before that. Sure, they will talk the talk about how they try and make things better, but in the end, it'll be the same ole same ole. So until people just stop going, it wont change (for me, I'm not interested in spending $500 on an IM race, when I can do B2B for cheaper and it's in my own back yard).

From people's comments it truely seems like the only course of action is to get more volunteers on the bike course. It's as if WTC is saying: If you want it fixed, YOU better do something about it, because we aint changing; all the while raking in the money each and every year. But alas, it's all business, and as such they are doing exactly what 99% of most businesses do. Making lots and lots of money, with the least amount of cost.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


(This post was edited by bad929 on Nov 10, 09 16:42)


h2ofun

Nov 10, 09 16:44

Post #251 of 397 (9112 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
In Reply To:
Not saying you'll kiss ass. I'm saying they'll use your own words to justify/give cause for why they wont ever change the race format. When someone complains, they will simply say, "Our lead official reports": drafting isnt an major issue, the majority race clean, we busted nearly 200 racers, that the officials are doing a great job.[/quote]

Drafting was a major issue in FL, and I would never report otherwise. The "majority race clean" comment was meant to indicate that there are righteous competitors out there, and not to imply that drafting is not a problem in IMFL.

Hello! Did you watch the video?:)

I'm simply stating that I will work within the system to do the best job I can do.

I get what you're saying and thanks for your comments. Without sincerely interested people - like most of those responding here - non-drafting tri will fade away. I don't want that.

JR


Jimmy, your last sentence is what I am brain storming on. I know you, and some other folks have a strong opinion on the races should be kept non drafting. But, since you are involved with a business, do you know for
a fact what the majority of your customers want? From all the races I have helped in, been an official in, RD for, etc., I only hear a very very small group of folks bitch about drafting. In TODAYS races, the vast majority are
there for the experience, for the social, for everything other than worrying about some marshall who has a chip on their shoulder about what THEY think the tri sport should be. ( Why should anyone else care if a person got a new Bike PR. They are a happy customer, and guess what, happy customers come back. When is the last time a race did not fill up?)

This is why I made the two different types of comments to you. The first is if I were the WTC Boss, as of today, I would not change a thing. Why would I. All my races fill up and that is the ONLY thing that counts for success in a business. They pay you just enough, and you do just enough, to be able to tell the few that complain that all is being done to try to enforce ALL the rules that are on the books. (Even though the rule against
non racers across the finish line was ignored for years.) Make sense?

Now, if and only if the WTC boss asks you to look at some key rule changes is where I would offer before you start messing with such a successful business model, have real data from you customers as to what would allow you to make more money and grow your business. (Which might not be the right business thing to do. Sometimes a business can get too large and lead to its down fall). Now if, and only if, you find from your customer surveys that a key change or changes need to be made, great, then this is where I would start with a clean piece of paper and put all my biases aside. You would be paid for meeting your customer needs, not what you might have done in the past
or what you think is right.

This is where I have always seen the disconnect with the bitching. Where is the data that shows the vast majority want more focus on the drafting, rather than less? Do you think the few comments on ST represent the majority of Triathletes? Do you think Triathlon would be in the Olympics today if the ITU did not have the vision to just make their races draft legal? Other than the US, from my racing in other parts of the world, they could care less about drafting concerns. They just go and kick butt on all 3 parts, and boy do they get a lot more support on their races than I have ever see in the US.

Again, great job. I am just trying to offer that I hope you are looking at any rule changes based on your customer needs, and not based on your racing ideas on what should be "right". (I have no idea the answer, I just have my opinion from helping at the quantity of races I do per year, which I assume you get the same data. Do you have any data to show your customer based number 1 issue to deal with is drafting? I sure do not hear it anywhere to that level).

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


JimmyRiccitello

Nov 10, 09 17:06

Post #252 of 397 (9065 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
I realize every year WTC will attempt to make things better. WTC and the officials will work on things, yet it'll be the same thing. Mass start, not enough officials, and lots of drafting. It is what it is.[/quote]
I think it's gotten better and it will get better. Time will tell.

JR

Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com


devashish_paul

Nov 10, 09 17:09

Post #253 of 397 (9058 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Hi Jimmy. With respect to "laps of shame", I still think you need to stop them on the side of the road at the penalty tent just to "sign in" (not serve time) and then do the laps of shame at T2.

WRT to being conned into the job, I was using the wording lightly. For those who don't know, Jimmy was one of the fiercest bike studs from the late 80's and 90's. If anyone wants to make things clean, he does.

Dev

cervelo.com (P3) |infinitnutrition.ca | bushtukah.com
Whiteface Hill Climb + Epicman Lake Placid 3k/180k/21k June 5/6 2014, Epicman Tremblant 10k/260k/42.2k 11-13 July 2014


h2ofun

Nov 10, 09 17:13

Post #254 of 397 (9041 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Wow, someone hit the nail on the head!!!

Now, if you put more officials on the bike course, you would greatly be increasing the risk of more accidents on the course, IMO.

So yep, the business model works perfectly, why change it?

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


h2ofun

Nov 10, 09 17:23

Post #255 of 397 (9013 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Jimmy, how do you define "better"? No matter how many officials you have on the course, someone will ALWAYS be able to pull out a video if they want and show someone who was drafting.
So, how would you define perfection in a race like IMFL or clearwater such that you could tell the ST crowd that the drafting issues were "fixed"? What target are you shooting for?
Every person who ever broke the rules gets a penalty. If this is really your bosses goal, I believe you and they will be looking for work since I know I would never do a race with that type of attitude.
This is all about fun, not about life or death!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you going to call every drafting call when folks are going up a big hill at 5 MPH? There is just NO way you could ever have a totally draft free course unless no two bikes ever got close to each other
since things can happen.

So bottom line, what are your bosses telling you to do about drafting? I know that if you were my employee, either I would not be totally honest with you, or tell you what we talked about could not
be repeated since business strategies like this are not talked to with customers. I will bet you a dinner they are not telling you they want zero drafting, or they would give you a ton of money
to hire hundred and hundred of motorcycles, and marshals. Anything less would be just talk, with is cheap. Results speak the true goals.

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


JimmyRiccitello

Nov 10, 09 17:28

Post #256 of 397 (9006 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Dave,

You bitch more about people bitching, than people bitch about drafting:)

I respect your opinion ... when I can figure out what it is.

JR
Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com


oldandslow

Nov 10, 09 17:29

Post #257 of 397 (9004 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I may have missed some of your posts (it's a long thread), but you need to acknowledge that widespread drafting is only a significant issue for a FEW of the IM and HIM races. In fact, I have only seen one or two instances have drafting of any tiype in any of the races that I have entered, and never the type of pelotons that IMF has (I generally do HIM's on the West Coast). In some races and geographical areas, a "culture of drafting" exists, and it is basically expected that it will happen. Are you suggesting that these few races should be draft-legal, or that all WTC races should be draft-legal?


BDoughtie

Nov 10, 09 17:37

Post #258 of 397 (8977 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

There is never going to be 100% clean racing. Thats impossible, but at the same time, it makes WTC races look less respected (atleast to me) to have the type of pelotons in IM Fl and Clearwater. I would think as an race organization, you would atleast want to break up these peloton. You wont be able to give an drafting penalty for every offense, it's just impossible.

But I think they could do a better job of breaking up the pelotons.


However, the issue I seem to have, is how it seems that WTC is basically putting their hands up as if, "What, we are trying to stop the problem". They seem to basically be saying, "You want to fix the problem, come out here, volunteer and get on the back of a moto." Why not try a wave start for a year to see what happens, why not try and stricter penalties for a year,etc. (of course they wont, because of the potential to ruin profit from racers). WTC seems to basically be saying if you want to continue to bitch about the problem, put up or shut up, as they kinda seem like they are absolutely happy with the way the race is ran now. Again, it goes back to being a business. It doesnt make business sense for WTC to do anything that costs them profit.

Have they ever tried a wave start? Have they ever tried to put in a stiffer penalty? It seems they always come back with reasons why not to change, vs actually reallying trying to make a change.


But it's all about the MONEY. It is what it is. WTC is in business to spit out a cute ironman shirt and have an announcer say your the best person in the world at the finish, etc. They are doing an absolutely fabulous job in that dept. They cont. to sell out races, and produce "ironmen". Good for them that they can do that, I just wonder when will the IM bubble burst? I guess it'll take the balloon bursting to really cause a stir and create changes. Hell, for all I know, h2o, you may be right. ST people who are bitching/concerned about the drafting may be the small minute minority. We may be overblowing things and making it too much of an issue.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


(This post was edited by bad929 on Nov 10, 09 17:44)


rick_pcfl

Nov 10, 09 17:39

Post #259 of 397 (8969 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [M~] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
I am with Dev on this. Time penalties are no penalties. Make a person run a lap and really put the hurt on them before they go out and run the marathon. THAT is a penalty.

To add to this - make them run it on the beach, in the sand. That'll give their legs something to scream about.

I like someone else's idea of pulling them off the course 20 something miles into the race. That way the won't go into the next race with fresher legs than the guys who ran the race.

Another penalty for repeat offenders would be to ban them from any IM races for one year.


ttx_tri

Nov 10, 09 17:52

Post #260 of 397 (8937 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Myself, I would not enter a draft legal tri. I have ridden on my road bike with inexperienced cyclist on their tri bike and it is scary! Hell even in IM's now there are a lot of people who do not know how to handle a bike.

Team R.A.C.C Core Member since 2013
Owner Speed Concept since 2011.


h2ofun

Nov 10, 09 18:01

Post #261 of 397 (8918 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

So simple to me, but us engineers always have trouble communicating what is so clear to us to others.

Next race I see you, we can BS over a coke. (Since I do not drink)

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


h2ofun

Nov 10, 09 18:08

Post #262 of 397 (8909 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [oldandslow] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I have no idea what the right answer is. This is why I asked Jimmy a simple question. What does his customers want to be done with drafting? My guess is WTC has no customer feedback that would mean anything more than opinions. But I sure would be willing to bet Jimmy a dinner that if they asked would WTC customers want the level of changes what would be needed for 100% of drafting calls anywhere on the course to be made, and they got 10,000 inputs, the majority would say what he is doing now is a fair balance since this sport is not about life or death. (I know when I worked at HP, I would always ask marketing what our customers wanted, and I always knew more than they did.)

As I posted earlier, I was shocked this year to see so many of the top men drafting in our local races. (I was helping on the bike course, so I saw 100% of the racers 1st hand) Just made me sick, but one can bitch, but there really is nothing the RD can do and be able to have the race where they have it.

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


h2ofun

Nov 10, 09 18:11

Post #263 of 397 (8907 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Jimmy, simply questions for you. What do your bosses want you to do about drafting? If it was more calls, they would give you TONS of more money, which I know they will not do, which answers what they really want.

What surveys have you done with your customers to ask what if anything WTC should be about drafting?

With the above data, you can see if any new direction needs to be considered.

Are these not simple questions? No data, no changes for the better

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


BDoughtie

Nov 10, 09 18:18

Post #264 of 397 (8889 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Why would WTC give them more money? Thats bad business. The only way they would give officials more money is by jacking up the price for racers.

If you asked racers:

Would you be willing to spending $300 more dollars knowing you would be racing in a race with no drafting OR you continue to pay $500 bucks but you get what you get?

I'm guessing you would actually have a slight majority, say keep it the same. Just keep it the way it is, and for officials to do the best they can. Yes I think people care about drafting, but I'm guessing they care more about their wallets more.



Again, it's all business. WTC isnt going to do something that causes them to lose profit. If they keep the same race fees, they will never ever give more money to race officials.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


h2ofun

Nov 10, 09 18:18

Post #265 of 397 (8889 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Again, you hit the nail on the head. I talked personally with Jimmy about drafting years ago. I heard him giving us directions on how he wanted us to official the race. I heard him talk at the
pre race meeting about how they are going to enforce the rules. I have seen far TOO many years the same comments, etc. This is why clearly at the end of day, it is not what someone says,
it is what they do, and nothing has really changed over the years, even though the SAME issues at the same races happen. They have been willing to try nothing different, really! So, what does this lead
me to believe, yep, there business model is far exceeding expectations. If you owned a business doing as well as WTC, would you listen to a few who bitch, or the money in your bank account?

And Jimmy, if you want to say I am bitching about so many bitching, fair call, I just want to show there are multiple sides to any issue.

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


fulla

Nov 10, 09 18:19

Post #266 of 397 (8885 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

those compression socks that many of those cyclists (i hesitate to call them 'triathletes') are pretty gay...


h2ofun

Nov 10, 09 18:21

Post #267 of 397 (8876 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Yep, this is why I am asking Jimmy if WTC has asked customers the exact question you are asking. But, one would only start asking something like this IF the owners felt
their business was losing business. Do you see WTC losing any business over this yet?

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


h2ofun

Nov 10, 09 18:24

Post #268 of 397 (8864 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Personally, if I were WTC and wanted to improve the ethics of my race, I would put the money in drug testing. That is much much worse than drafting, IMO.
I would start with 100% of the folks who qualify for Kona would get a drug test at the race, AND, be put into a random drug testing during the entire year.
These are the real cheaters in our sport, IMO. But, it is only a 2 year penalty.

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


BDoughtie

Nov 10, 09 18:28

Post #269 of 397 (8852 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Here is my take: Does WTC care what the customers think by surveys/comments?

Sure, but they care a hell of alot more at how customers think with their wallet. At this point, people dont care about drafting enough to call WTC out on it by skipping this race (race is already sold out).



As far as drug testing. Will all the racers be forced to pay for that policy?
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


(This post was edited by bad929 on Nov 10, 09 18:31)


gholmes

Nov 10, 09 18:46

Post #270 of 397 (8832 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [psycholist] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
If gholmes has any more videos to post, he should consider using that cheesy "Bad boys Bad boys ... whatcha gonna do ..." music from that Fox show.

I have a buddy who got busted for drafting at IMFL and spent 4 minutes in the penalty box at T2. I was wondering, is there any way this could actually be of benefit? Could someone run the marathon more than 4 minutes faster because they got a nice 4-minute rest forced on them? I'm not a runner. Don't know.

I just did a little fast math and, if drafting helped you average only 1/2 mph faster over the 112 ... say from 22.5 mph to 23.0 mph ... that would be over 6 minutes. Serve a 4 minute penalty and get a fresher start on your run? Doesn't sound like a bad deal to me.
I wanted "Your cheatin Heart" by hank wiliams senior but it wasn't in the list at you tube.. You can't just post any sound track without permission I did that once and they muted the audio told me it was detected to be owned by warner records or something it was also sprach zarathustra(2001 theme) can you believe that... maybe because I got mp3 off net should have taken it off an old lp
from the soundtrack I have. So I just searched for the word cheat found bunch of songs in their list and found that one. "Cheat the Devil" by the young werewolfs(which I didn't have a clue who they were).


WildSide

Nov 10, 09 19:05

Post #271 of 397 (8806 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [jroden] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Why aren't we pointing out how dangerous Gary Holmes is for riding into an aid station with his fucking "Minolta" camera out in one hand? You see the porta pottys on the right at the end. What is his motivation?

There is clearly an Aid Station that's out of focus for this camera but would have been seen by the riders well in advance of the video starting, you can see the car parked across the road from it even with this short focal range. Of course people are sitting up to throw trash (as was threatened with DQ if not in the exact area of the station), going left to skip it or slowing to grab bottles. Both videos this guy posted are of aid stations early in the race.

Yes, there was drafting! There were also lots of officials on the course. There was also blocking and outside assistance and tons of pissing on the course even though they begged us not to. GHolmes needs to stop posting video about how people bunch up at early aid stations so he can look cool in front of his friends and call it drafting. This video is not relevant.

Flame away.


BDoughtie

Nov 10, 09 19:09

Post #272 of 397 (8794 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [WildSide] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

We need the "this video doesnt really show what happened" crowd to show up and atleast keep it interesting. Thanks for posting.
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


(This post was edited by bad929 on Nov 10, 09 19:12)


fulla

Nov 10, 09 19:12

Post #273 of 397 (8788 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Wildside, are you in the video by any chance?


ggeiger

Nov 10, 09 19:20

Post #274 of 397 (8771 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Dave,

You bitch more about people bitching, than people bitch about drafting:)

I respect your opinion ... when I can figure out what it is.

JR

Exceptional Jimmy!!!! Now you know why most ignore good ole Dave....


ggeiger

Nov 10, 09 19:26

Post #275 of 397 (8758 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I see now that Chris L. has posted the video as well, and the comments are similar to here...outrageous!! is the usual comment. Well done, gholmes....it's gaining steam....


WildSide

Nov 10, 09 19:41

Post #276 of 397 (9499 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [fulla] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Wildside, are you in the video by any chance?
No. I think I was behind this guy all day. I just think that it is crappy to post something so misleading when he knew what he was posting. I said in my post there was drafting, no doubt. There were obvious wheel suckers that weren't interested in passing, I pulled some myself at times. There were also inevitable big packs that were riding at least close to legal distance or in the spirit of the rule and did bunch up at turns, intersections and aid stations. Especially early in the day. There was also the 3 and 4 wide passing that got to be a cluster at times. Not a perfect race by any means!

The people stopping to take a leak by the side of the road after being begged not to at the pre-race meeting mystified me too. Why can't people just follow the rules? I also saw some pretty fast folks running (pacing?) with non-competitors at times. Lots to bitch about but this video isn't it.


mv2005

Nov 10, 09 21:41

Post #277 of 397 (9425 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

With respect to wave starts. If these were to happen then perhaps a better way of having the waves would be more of a random nature (i.e. alphabetical etc). Having a broad range of ages and genders in each wave is going to reduce (even further) the number of physically similar people in close proximity on the bike course. Additionally, they may be less likely to sit in a pack because they no longer know where the rest of their competition is in the field. They simply can't afford to sit around waiting if they are after slots. The added benefit is it will do away with the whole calf marking debate!

Truly innovative enforcement will come the day each athlete is required to install proximity detecters on their bikes. Each with its unique identifier and each able to monitor the time spent within the legal proximity of every other unique identifier. Audible warnings given off when one is within the draft zone. A special alarm sounding when an infraction has been identified. Chips then returned at the end of the bike leg and can be checked for DQ's and sin bin requirements.

The run penalty is a great idea. Imagine having a 400m track setup around transition with all the crowd able to watch you. You're required to run at least 1km and then serve out any time remaining of a 5min penalty. Slow runners can start the main event immediately. Fast runners must wait it out after the 1km. It should be done in bike shoes or socks, not runners. That way, for multi lap courses the same track is used. For out and back there can be several locations along the route. If you don't serve it there you are DQ'd. Will separate you from the group you are drafting with. Also remains equitable in terms of no running shoes.

We can dream can't we?


'luga

Nov 11, 09 0:22

Post #278 of 397 (9380 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
  • The draft marshals did a good job. The disgrace lies with those who choose to break the rules.
Riccitello
Point of clarification if you don't mind - most IMs these days leave a lot of athletes with no choice but to break the rules. The sheer volume of athletes hitting the bike course over a short period of time makes it mathematically impossible for all athletes to ride legal, and still ride their own race.

At 32.5km/h, a cyclist covers 2667 meters in 5 minutes. The rules state that riders should keep 7 meters between bikes, so if you add the length of the bike then you need roughly 9 meters for each bike/draft zone. Those 2667 meters will theoretically accommodate 296 riders, if they are perfectly spaced.

Checked the IMFL results and found 280 swimmers exited the water between 1:05 and 1:10. They could, theoretically, ride legal. From 1:10 to 1:15 there were 405 swimmers exit, then 368, 306 and 277 in successive 5 minute segments. 2/3s of the field are packed on the course in a space that is too small to accommodate them and all still be legal.

Hypothetical? Yes, but I think it illustrates well the problem. Sure, some will be legal in that space, but only because there are also groups of 70 milling about three abreast in a space of about 150 meters.

I sympathize with you, having to answer for a situation that is not your creation. It's like the NFL telling teams to field 12 players, but instructing the referees to penalize a team for having more than 11. But this illustration, and the video from the OP, shows that for somebody swimming 1:12 it is highly probable they will at some point on the bike, be in a position violation unless they sit on the side of the road for 20 minutes until the steady stream of wheel-to-wheel riders abates.

More officials and bigger penalties aren't going to have any effect, unless the density on the bike course is properly managed so that the athletes intentionally breaking rules are isolated.


devashish_paul

Nov 11, 09 5:19

Post #279 of 397 (9303 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Response to Luga:

For IM

Wave starts with no more than 100 per wave (start them 2 min apart if you want, that's still going to put your entire field entering the water over a space of an hour and they will leave the water spread out by ~1:40 min instead of just ~40 minute). Less people to draft off in the swim will also mean a safer swim and also slower swim times (less draft), and less clumps of athletes leaving the water together so less peleton at the start of bike.

Dev

cervelo.com (P3) |infinitnutrition.ca | bushtukah.com
Whiteface Hill Climb + Epicman Lake Placid 3k/180k/21k June 5/6 2014, Epicman Tremblant 10k/260k/42.2k 11-13 July 2014


mattajw

Nov 11, 09 6:45

Post #280 of 397 (9235 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

This was my first IMFL and last. I have trained for this race and was very prepared, all those who drafted obviously were not. Headwind to me is when i really can put the hammer down. To my point though, once we hit the head wind section I did nothing but pass riders, about ten miles in i discovered what had happened to about 90% of the riders i passed. They drafted off of me. That is BS. Hence i dropped behind the pack to legal distance and when the pack slowed i passed them for good. The choice is simple you can draft or not draft. This rider chooses not to.
Matthew


'luga

Nov 11, 09 8:38

Post #281 of 397 (9169 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Wave starts will alleviate, not eliminate, the problem on the bike, and they create a new one in the swim. If waves are grouped by AG will mean that the slow swimmers in the early waves will get tangled with faster swimmers in later waves, and all the drafting-at-IMFL-is-atrocius threads will be replaced by my-race-was-ruined-by-swimmers-beating-me-up threads and my-race-was-ruined-by-slowpokes-in-the-water threads. Seed by swim times and you may actually make the problem worse, because if people were to seed truthfully, then the 1:15 wave will all show up at the beach at the same time.


klehner

Nov 11, 09 9:05

Post #282 of 397 (9129 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Your error is in assuming that spacing between riders is static. It is not, as riders pass and are passed by other riders. You can fit a lot more cyclists, legally spaced, in a given section of road than you calculate. In fact, the number of riders that you can support riding legally is limited by the width of the road, not the length.
----------------------------------
Of course, with your ears stuffed with outrage cotton balls, all you heard was, rahrahra, govt comes to get your guns, rhahrahrah, stamp out your FREEEEEDOM! - slowguy


Millco

Nov 11, 09 9:06

Post #283 of 397 (9125 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

How is the best way to let you know you want to volunteer at the race to be an official?


M~

Nov 11, 09 9:13

Post #284 of 397 (9112 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
In Reply To:
  • The draft marshals did a good job. The disgrace lies with those who choose to break the rules.
Riccitello
Point of clarification if you don't mind - most IMs these days leave a lot of athletes with no choice but to break the rules..

And that continues to be the rationale for people who continue to draft and not care. While I see your point and I agree, there are too many folks on the course, it doesn't excuse the drafting. But everyone wants to hammer the first 40k out of T1 and nobody is willing to sit in and let people go by. So everyone jumps on everyone elses wheel and says "oh it's not my fault blah blah blah." Yes it is "your" fault if you draft.


dgunthert

Nov 11, 09 10:08

Post #285 of 397 (9037 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Med Tent Man] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Your error is in assuming that spacing between riders is static. It is not, as riders pass and are passed by other riders. You can fit a lot more cyclists, legally spaced, in a given section of road than you calculate. In fact, the number of riders that you can support riding legally is limited by the width of the road, not the length.

Thanks for pointing out the fallacy in this argument. I was thinking the same thing.

I'm firmly in the "laps of shame" camp. Set up a 1/4 mile or 1/2 mile loop at T2. First infraction is 1 mile at least, second is another, maybe even 2 or 3. Third is DQ. The beauty of the solution is that it addresses 3 areas: eliminates the time gained from drafting (which current time penalties do not), provides a physical deterrent to drafting (having to run farther), and adds an additional moral deterrent (everyone, including friends and family, will see you doing the laps and know why). How long it takes you to serve the penalty is up to you, but the faster you serve it, the more you trash your legs for the 26.2 you still have to run.

Just increasing the current time penalties will not solve the problem because of the people involved. There are 2 groups that draft.

The first are the very intentional drafters looking to get away with as much as possible to reduce their bike split and save time. They want PR's or Kona slots. Increasing the penalty to 8 or 10 minutes would help with this group, since you'd most likely be negating any time benefit they gained and making their run that much harder.

But increasing the time penalties is not going to affect the second, larger group. This group isn't all that concerned about their time and are morally lazy. This is the "there's no way I could have avoided drafting" crowd. They get passed by a big group, don't want to drop back to let it pass, and decide that everyone else is doing it, they will too. Of course, they conviently ignore the fact that the pack was going faster than they were and will eventually pull away if they let it and that they'll be riding faster than they were the whole time they let that happen. Anyway, they don't want to make the effort to ride legally. For this group, adding 8 or 10 minutes to their time is not going to be much of a deterrent. However, you tell them they're going to have to run an extra mile or two out in the sun in front of friends and family before they can even start the marathon, and I think it would be a different story. It's certainly more incentive to ride clean than getting to spend 4 minutes on the side of the road in a tent resting and refueling.


'luga

Nov 11, 09 10:12

Post #286 of 397 (9029 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Med Tent Man] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Yeah, I know riders pass each other. They also go slower uphill and faster downhill, they stand up and stretch, they slow down for aid stations, they get flats, etc, etc. I made sure that the words "theoretically" and "hypothetical" were in there for that reason. Doesn't change the fact that the rules mandate a distance that isn't capable of being maintained in a perfect setting, much less with all the variables of pack dynamics.

As for your statement about width being a determining factor, and that more riders can be riding legally in less space, I give you the following from the IMFL09 athletes book:

b. Contestants must ride single file on the far right side of the road except when passing another rider. Side-by-side riding is not allowed.
c. Overtaking riders may pass on the left for up to 20 seconds, but must move back to the right side of the road after passing.

Riding abreast is not a solution, it is a bigger problem than actual drafting. That is why rules specifically prohibit that from races, regardless of the width of the road.

A moldy water bottle to the person who can identify the reason why (Jimmy R is not allowed to play)


waitebe

Nov 11, 09 10:28

Post #287 of 397 (9009 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Is the reason for not riding two abreast to limit the fistfights caused by a rider getting hit by a snock rocket or peed on from the abreast rider?
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klehner

Nov 11, 09 10:39

Post #288 of 397 (8985 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Yeah, I know riders pass each other. They also go slower uphill and faster downhill, they stand up and stretch, they slow down for aid stations, they get flats, etc, etc. I made sure that the words "theoretically" and "hypothetical" were in there for that reason. Doesn't change the fact that the rules mandate a distance that isn't capable of being maintained in a perfect setting, much less with all the variables of pack dynamics.

As for your statement about width being a determining factor, and that more riders can be riding legally in less space, I give you the following from the IMFL09 athletes book:

b. Contestants must ride single file on the far right side of the road except when passing another rider. Side-by-side riding is not allowed.
c. Overtaking riders may pass on the left for up to 20 seconds, but must move back to the right side of the road after passing.

Riding abreast is not a solution, it is a bigger problem than actual drafting. That is why rules specifically prohibit that from races, regardless of the width of the road.

A moldy water bottle to the person who can identify the reason why (Jimmy R is not allowed to play)

If you consider the bike leg to be like car traffic on a multi-lane highway in which slower cars keep right and faster cars pass on the left (at least on this side of the pond), you'll understand why it is the width that is the restriction. There's nothing in the rules against passing someone who is passing someone who is passing someone...

I'm sure every decent cyclist has passed someone in a race who was in the process of passing yet someone else. You could have as many lanes of that as the width of the road allowed.

The legal distance is always possible without anyone delayed if the road is wide enough; in light of the fact that all roads are width-limited (except maybe that duathlon I did that was held on a Navy airbase's runways :-), only short delays might occur as one slows down a bit for someone engaged in a pass to move back to the right.
----------------------------------
Of course, with your ears stuffed with outrage cotton balls, all you heard was, rahrahra, govt comes to get your guns, rhahrahrah, stamp out your FREEEEEDOM! - slowguy


twack26

Nov 11, 09 10:44

Post #289 of 397 (8976 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm really surprised no one has thought of this ingenious and cost-effective way to curb all drafting. At bike check-in, just outfit EVERY bike with a three cameras and then DQ people who draft more than once during the race. I mean, how much could it cost? 10,000 cameras, plus a few thousand people spending 4-5-6-7 hours searching through video for violators? Drafting issue solved :)
_________________________________________________

Rather than look back and say "why?", look forward and say "why not?!"


Deej

Nov 11, 09 10:56

Post #290 of 397 (8958 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Deej] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Good stuff.

Maybe I missed this already explored in the thread, but is there a reason race marshals can't employ this technology more and then apply penalties retroactively (like the doping passport in cycling)? Just that risk alone would scare the bejeezus out of anyone drafting with intent or intentionally not correcting a clear violation. This doesn't mean the course and wave format don't have something to do with this too.

Bumping my own comment - the technology to do this is cheap and easy to implement. 'If' WTC really cares about drafting why not film the race and have the threat of applying penalties retroactively always available? Cameras could be deployed throughout the course at fixed locations and with marshals. Combine that with race structure changes (staggered starts, waves, smaller fields, etc.) and 'real' real-time penalties (20min penalty box, run's of shame, etc.) and you'll get most of it.

Or, just make it draft legal. The swim is.

Head down, thumbs up, give'r


BDoughtie

Nov 11, 09 11:01

Post #291 of 397 (8943 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Deej] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

WTC doesnt care, they only care about the bottom line: MONEY. They care about drafting just enough to have their head official report: "Officials are doing a good job, and the majority of racers arent drafting". So WTC looks at it as if, "What we are doing a good job"!?!?



WTC has basically taken the responsibility out of enforcing drafting on the race (officials) and has put it squarely on the shoulders of the racers themselves (to make the decision to draft or not to draft).
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


'luga

Nov 11, 09 11:09

Post #292 of 397 (8916 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Med Tent Man] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

But it isn't like car traffic on a highway - it is in fact bicycle traffic on a highway, which means that you have inadvertently hit on a reason why 2 or 3 abreast is prohibited. On an open course, you can't have riders spread out across the road as that will cause all sorts of issues with traffic, race officials etc. It creates a seriously dangerous situation for the riders because vehicular traffic is then squeezed on the roadway and the risk of accidents is exponentially greater - as is the chance that riders in the vicinity will be involved.

The other reason? If three or four lanes of riders are spread across the entire road "passing" what about the guy behind who is actually faster than any of them? The drafting rules are very loosely written, and open to pretty broad interpretation, including yours. But I can tell you that the scenario you present will actually build the pack, not control it.


klehner

Nov 11, 09 11:27

Post #293 of 397 (8895 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
But it isn't like car traffic on a highway - it is in fact bicycle traffic on a highway, which means that you have inadvertently hit on a reason why 2 or 3 abreast is prohibited. On an open course, you can't have riders spread out across the road as that will cause all sorts of issues with traffic, race officials etc. It creates a seriously dangerous situation for the riders because vehicular traffic is then squeezed on the roadway and the risk of accidents is exponentially greater - as is the chance that riders in the vicinity will be involved.

The other reason? If three or four lanes of riders are spread across the entire road "passing" what about the guy behind who is actually faster than any of them? The drafting rules are very loosely written, and open to pretty broad interpretation, including yours. But I can tell you that the scenario you present will actually build the pack, not control it.

You seem to miss the distinction between "riding abreast" and passing. Passing 2 or 3 or 12 abreast is not prohibited, as long as the riders in question are passing. If they just sit out there, then they are either drafting, blocking or committing some other position foul.

And I referenced the guy who is trying to get by. As long as nobody is blocking (which is a penalty), said speedster will be minimally delayed. And if they are blocking, then there isn't anything to be done, the rules be damned.
----------------------------------
Of course, with your ears stuffed with outrage cotton balls, all you heard was, rahrahra, govt comes to get your guns, rhahrahrah, stamp out your FREEEEEDOM! - slowguy


'luga

Nov 11, 09 11:33

Post #294 of 397 (8885 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Med Tent Man] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In the footage that started this thread, are they riding abreast or passing?


klehner

Nov 11, 09 11:41

Post #295 of 397 (8862 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
In the footage that started this thread, are they riding abreast or passing?
I don't care. I was responding to your erroneous calculation about how many riders a course can legally contain: "2/3s of the field are packed on the course in a space that is too small to accommodate them and all still be legal". It just ain't so.
----------------------------------
Of course, with your ears stuffed with outrage cotton balls, all you heard was, rahrahra, govt comes to get your guns, rhahrahrah, stamp out your FREEEEEDOM! - slowguy


'luga

Nov 11, 09 12:10

Post #296 of 397 (8817 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Med Tent Man] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Open course, or closed course? Not that it matters:


b. Contestants must ride single file on the far right side of the road except when passing another rider. Side-by-side riding is not allowed.
c. Overtaking riders may pass on the left for up to 20 seconds, but must move back to the right side of the road after passing.



(This post was edited by 'luga on Nov 11, 09 13:57)


gholmes

Nov 11, 09 12:18

Post #297 of 397 (8799 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
In the footage that started this thread, are they riding abreast or passing?
most were riding abreast or slightly staggared in the two videos I posted one or two were actually passing as I was in the front rear dual video just after next aid station only to get passed by the pack with some of riders in same position they were 2 minutes back. just watch the videos closely.. I watched the scene this wasn't some happen chance video.
I've been planning on this for a long time and I know what drafting is and what blocking is. these guys were riding abreast and behind each other(not all of them of course).
I'll post some video from later on the course when I get a chance. The Hd helmet video was only when I turned camera on (due to battery life) the aero bar and seat post cameras were on continous just alot for me to go through Over 16 gig total between all the cameras memory cards so going to take a while.


gholmes

Nov 11, 09 12:27

Post #298 of 397 (8783 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Jimmy, how do you define "better"? No matter how many officials you have on the course, someone will ALWAYS be able to pull out a video if they want and show someone who was drafting.
So, how would you define perfection in a race like IMFL or clearwater such that you could tell the ST crowd that the drafting issues were "fixed"? What target are you shooting for?
Every person who ever broke the rules gets a penalty. If this is really your bosses goal, I believe you and they will be looking for work since I know I would never do a race with that type of attitude.
This is all about fun, not about life or death!!!!!!!!!!!!

Are you going to call every drafting call when folks are going up a big hill at 5 MPH? There is just NO way you could ever have a totally draft free course unless no two bikes ever got close to each other
since things can happen.

So bottom line, what are your bosses telling you to do about drafting? I know that if you were my employee, either I would not be totally honest with you, or tell you what we talked about could not
be repeated since business strategies like this are not talked to with customers. I will bet you a dinner they are not telling you they want zero drafting, or they would give you a ton of money
to hire hundred and hundred of motorcycles, and marshals. Anything less would be just talk, with is cheap. Results speak the true goals.

Dave
its like everything else you can strive for 100% but your never going to get there but right now theres major problems.
Personally I see the big packs as the problem not the onesy twosy drafters...
Its the PACKS(I'm going to repeat) I have most problem with sure your going to have some folks cheat but this group thing has got to be stopped.

If they can work on a way to reduce the large packs with blatant drafting then who cares if someone comes up with someone drafting you can't get all of them but its these packs that
Pretty much can hurt other peoples races and could be a safety issue..

I posted the videos and yes I had the cameras at ironman louisville BUT you don't see any video from that race you know why? Because I didn't see any packs out there.
I had one guy drafting on me early on at louisville I reached back told him he was on video he went around me but my rear camera stopped for some reason early on.
BUT the thing is there were not any major packs out there. Closest thing to it was the first hill at 8 miles but everyone was going 7 mph(I have gps synched with my video of that)
but once we got out on the open road with more athletes than florida had start(2916 I think) and you did not have these packs.

Its just like on the highway I think theres some study years ago and they call them wolfpacks there are always groups of cars that seem to group together and hog both lanes on most interstates
its some social group interaction thing I hate that and try to stay away.
Same thing happens in triathlons. But if you can find way to break them up either time trial start,hills,extra turns. Pinch points(narrow road sections where they have to slow down)
less people starting then the major problem is solved and you can spend time on the individual drafters.


gholmes

Nov 11, 09 12:34

Post #299 of 397 (8768 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [WildSide] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Why aren't we pointing out how dangerous Gary Holmes is for riding into an aid station with his fucking "Minolta" camera out in one hand? You see the porta pottys on the right at the end. What is his motivation?

There is clearly an Aid Station that's out of focus for this camera but would have been seen by the riders well in advance of the video starting, you can see the car parked across the road from it even with this short focal range. Of course people are sitting up to throw trash (as was threatened with DQ if not in the exact area of the station), going left to skip it or slowing to grab bottles. Both videos this guy posted are of aid stations early in the race.

Yes, there was drafting! There were also lots of officials on the course. There was also blocking and outside assistance and tons of pissing on the course even though they begged us not to. GHolmes needs to stop posting video about how people bunch up at early aid stations so he can look cool in front of his friends and call it drafting. This video is not relevant.

Flame away.
Why don't you watch the video and see I was not holding any camera in my hand. Watch the front rear one I was in my drops.
You bet I'm flaming because you didn't watch the video.. The first one started almost a minute before an aid station if you watch the second one you wil see them approaching from the rear long before that aid station. also later on they passed me back in formation.. I have other video I will post and they aren't near an aid station.. You think I made all this up.
I guess you also believe moon walks were fake...
the second video is the same as the first just different cameras but it also shows passing the aid station me doing what I'm supposed to do pass them as they slow down then they get back up to speed and come again... I think your in the minority in this anyway.. Bite me... is all I can say.
Look again I did not hold a minolta camera while going through an aid station. The handheld you see is an ollympus by the way but it was tucked away in my skin suit when I was in a crowd.
the other video was a helmet mounted camera and 2 go pro cameras hanging from my aero bar and on my seat post.. IF YOUD payed attention to the video you will also see me
going in an almost perfect line on the shoulder bike lane. the helmet cam yes I turn my head from time to time but I'm steady as a rock.


gholmes

Nov 11, 09 12:35

Post #300 of 397 (8766 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
We need the "this video doesnt really show what happened" crowd to show up and atleast keep it interesting. Thanks for posting.
yep and I believe he has proven the moon landings were fake as well..


gholmes

Nov 11, 09 12:43

Post #301 of 397 (9041 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [WildSide] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
In Reply To:
Wildside, are you in the video by any chance?
No. I think I was behind this guy all day. I just think that it is crappy to post something so misleading when he knew what he was posting. I said in my post there was drafting, no doubt. There were obvious wheel suckers that weren't interested in passing, I pulled some myself at times. There were also inevitable big packs that were riding at least close to legal distance or in the spirit of the rule and did bunch up at turns, intersections and aid stations. Especially early in the day. There was also the 3 and 4 wide passing that got to be a cluster at times. Not a perfect race by any means!

The people stopping to take a leak by the side of the road after being begged not to at the pre-race meeting mystified me too. Why can't people just follow the rules? I also saw some pretty fast folks running (pacing?) with non-competitors at times. Lots to bitch about but this video isn't it.
if you were behind me all day then you know your pretty much lieing.. I have continous video from a rear camera from t1 all the way to the 388 out and back. I had times there was no one behind me at all. This was just the first video and its not misleading you obviously haven't watched it.
Was not early in the day.. Actually I thought I'd see packs on 79 going north because it happened last year (granted I was a bit slower out of the water this year) got to highway 20
went almost 10 miles before this pack came along I'd almost given up thinking well not going to see anything today. So they were not neck and neck bunched up there are huge gaps
between these packs and we were spread out a whole lot. I guess I'll have to find a way to upload a whole hour and a half continous video to prove it if I can find a web site that will let me do it.
I'll have to find some video of you if you were indeed behind me since I have your first name(if that is your real name) since you seem to know my name which I freely post gholmes is my handle
and my name is Gary Holmes I'm from Memphis so you when you thought you were being cool calling me out you were instead being a jerk.

This wasn't a whim. I've done this race 10 times and I've been wanting to catch video a long time but just didn't have the right cameras. This was not early in the day this was around 35 miles(I have gps I'm going to sync with rear camera since I have mat timeing and it ran continous
my helmet cam I only turned on (hd camera) when I saw something worth watching. My front camera locked up while on 79 and I had to switch cameras (two front only 3 hours per camera).


h2ofun

Nov 11, 09 12:47

Post #302 of 397 (9036 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I agree and have proposed one solution to this. Put a GPS tracking unit on each bike. The head official could then see where the packs are, and send out the limited marshalls to be with these packs.
This would meet your first goal to stop the packs. Now this probably means still more money to get more motorcycles and officials. This always basically asking then to do this for free does not show
they are real serious, IMO.

I am totally in support of what you are trying to do! I for years have given ideas on things to try, and all I get is a cold shoulder from all the organizations. Does this show you they really care?

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


gholmes

Nov 11, 09 12:54

Post #303 of 397 (9020 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
In Reply To:
Thank you for catching the 190 people. That sounds like an unprecedented number of violations. Perhaps this will act as a deterrent for next year.[/quote]

You're very welcome. Hopefully we will have twice as many marshals next year. That will help a lot.

JR
Ditto on that I even see a few folks in penalty tent in my video. Just want to state here publicly that I believe you are doing the best you can with the resources you have and in no way
are these videos I took a statement against you and the other marshals. Pretty much the race format, course layout make your job very tough at this race in particular gulf coast tri has had the same problem for years. I've done ironman florida 10 times and gulf coast 13..

Ironman Louisville was great with the time trial start and 2900 starting I saw no packs anywhere things were spread out well which goes to show what a time trial start and lots of hills on a course can do. My main beef at florida has been the large packs I've seen them every year multiple on most are on highway 20. They break up just after special needs usually then some regroup
on the out and back. This year I saw some on 388 going west where I had never seen large groups before probably because the road is newly paved where it used to rattle your teeth and you couldn't stay in a pack.

I talked to some athletes who were 20 minutes up the road from where I was (hour swim,faster bike) and they saw the same thing as well.
If we can find some solution to break up these packs then I believe things will go much better..

I'd like to see wave starts personally figureing they won't cut back on number of entrants which would help.
If they could create some pinch points on the course like the out and back turn around that might help some epsecially if there were marshals stationed just before and after up the road if they try to regruop since there are no major climbs to help out.

Its a tough job and you've got 5 million opinions out there.

Thanks for trying..


BDoughtie

Nov 11, 09 13:01

Post #304 of 397 (9003 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

So the answer your suggesting is to jack up the price so that GPS and officials can be used. We all know WTC wont pay for these extra stuff without putting the costs back to the customer.

So here is the question: Do enough people really care about drafting, that 2500 people will still sell out IM FL with $1k entry fees? You've all along seem to suggest that this "bitching about drafting" is more or less isolated to really a small minority. So it would seem by your logic, that people wouldnt want to pay that high costs?

Maybe the would, maybe they wouldnt. Does WTC want to take that chance to find out? Hell no.

So what do you think? Will IM FL sell out for $1k dollars but your going to get a fair race with no drafting?
------------------
@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com


DrewP

Nov 11, 09 13:06

Post #305 of 397 (8991 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Great video, what a mess. I did FL in 08 and got eaten up by group about the same spot in the race. Near the end it was very clean riding and I was even out there by myself a few times it seemed like. Not sure how you can stop it entirely but I'm sure they could crack down a bit harder.


gholmes

Nov 11, 09 13:08

Post #306 of 397 (8987 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
I agree and have proposed one solution to this. Put a GPS tracking unit on each bike. The head official could then see where the packs are, and send out the limited marshalls to be with these packs.
This would meet your first goal to stop the packs. Now this probably means still more money to get more motorcycles and officials. This always basically asking then to do this for free does not show
they are real serious, IMO.

I am totally in support of what you are trying to do! I for years have given ideas on things to try, and all I get is a cold shoulder from all the organizations. Does this show you they really care?

Dave
I agree with you on that use gps or other means (spotters at the known gathering spots like 25 miles of highway 20 at florida) to help break the packs up.
I don't think we are even close to removing human observation to solve this problem at least not in the near future but if you combine gadgets like gps,remote video,ranging devices
then there might be some hope.
As I said I wasn't out to catch a drafter I passed up (although probably have some on the continous video) a bunch I was wanting to get the packs which have aggravated me for the last 10 years on that course.

I do work with computer vision and I've been trying to find solution to using that to measure distance between riders,tracking them and so on but its still not an easy thing today with the current
rules. the fact you can be passing someone passing someone then they have to drop back or you are passing a long line of riders.. All of that throws alot of noise in there and makes the task
very difficult if not impossible.. I've toyed with retroreflective fiucials (pretty much how wii works except with ir led's) you can measure distance and location very easily and pretty accurate
just by knowing the distance between the leds and your camera or imaging properties like focal length,and field of view. But its made difficult in the daylight.
I've toyed with a bunch of ideas using camera spaced out tracking the numbers but the fact that 20 seconds to pass can take you 645 feet at 22 mph you'd have to have them spaced out enough
to follow any progress and with the above postition changes it would be difficult at least to automate it(meaning computer vision and recognition did all the work like traffic cams for speeding tickets) it just won't work without some major constraints..
BUT add to all of this human observers then just let the gps and cameras be their tools then you might can come up with something that would work.


p2k2001

Nov 11, 09 13:18

Post #307 of 397 (8960 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

More motor bikes does not equal more danger. The much bigger danger is a bunch of triathletes riding in a pack in their aerobars. Has there been a multi bike pileup yet at IM-Fl? If not, it is overdue. Once you start hauling off the course mangled bikes and mangled bodies, then we might see a change in tune.


_______________________________________________
you know my name, look up my number
_______________________________________________


Toby Tri

Nov 11, 09 13:32

Post #308 of 397 (8926 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Why don't you watch the video and see I was not holding any camera in my hand.

Look again I did not hold a minolta camera while going through an aid station. The handheld you see is an ollympus by the way but it was tucked away in my skin suit when I was in a crowd.



Um, well if you say so. Priceless.


(This post was edited by Toby Tri on Nov 11, 09 13:33)


h2ofun

Nov 11, 09 13:35

Post #309 of 397 (8919 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [p2k2001] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

My experience is the motor bikes are a danger. You do not always hear them coming. They do not yell on your left like most folks do when they pass. So just my experience.

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


h2ofun

Nov 11, 09 13:38

Post #310 of 397 (8914 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I know that some GPS companies have offered to help on some races with free use of the GPS units. You do not need more officials to start with, just have the ones you got where they are needed.
I cannot tell you how much time I have spent as a marshall and there were basically no riders to worry about. Now, if we were told to get to a certain area because a big pack is being seen, well,
would could have been more effective.

As I said. These units have been offered for free to put on all the pro bikes. Or maybe certain AG's. FOR FREE. So, money is not the excuse. Wonder what it is? :o)

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


h2ofun

Nov 11, 09 13:41

Post #311 of 397 (8912 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Start with putting the GPS units on the bikes of the worst AG, or two. They will now know they are being watched. I bet just this will clean up some of it. And I know that initially this would be offered
free for testing. I just have not been able to get anyone from USAT or WTC to seem to care.

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


ggeiger

Nov 11, 09 14:01

Post #312 of 397 (8871 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Toby Tri] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Watch the damn video! He's much more stable than many racing there, and how is that any different than holding a water bottle? You just trying to discredit him???? He's really bringing attention to this terrible problem; even to the extent of pro triathletes posting the link and commenting unfavorably as to the drafting. The guy's a damn hero, as he's trying to make change happen.


'luga

Nov 11, 09 14:13

Post #313 of 397 (8854 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:

I cannot tell you how much time I have spent as a marshall and there were basically no riders to worry about. Now, if we were told to get to a certain area because a big pack is being seen, well, would could have been more effective.

GPS will certainly provide that info, but course spotters are also effective at locating the packs, if they are equipped to communicate. Timing mats can also help, if the timers can set up some kind of alert when excessive #s pass through (and communicate same)

Penalties, technology, more officials - all treating the symptom. Gonna have to deal with the cause...


imsparticus

Nov 11, 09 15:08

Post #314 of 397 (8809 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

So I have one question gholmes - did you sign up for next year's IMFL?


h2ofun

Nov 11, 09 15:13

Post #315 of 397 (8807 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Anything that would be tried differently would be better than basically the nothing that has been changed over the years.

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


h2ofun

Nov 11, 09 15:13

Post #316 of 397 (8805 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

And the cause is ?

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
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gholmes

Nov 11, 09 18:27

Post #317 of 397 (8689 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [imsparticus] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
So I have one question gholmes - did you sign up for next year's IMFL?
yep I still like the race I've done everyone except 2006. I do better on a flat course. I have friends with beach house(its the house at mile 1 on run with all the girls dressed up and elvis this year).
I do it and have fun and everyonce in a while a good race its end of season. BUT I am also going to st george and canada next year as well.
I just don't like the packs and wanted to get video of that doesn't mean I won't do the race.


gholmes

Nov 11, 09 18:44

Post #318 of 397 (8663 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Toby Tri] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
In Reply To:
Why don't you watch the video and see I was not holding any camera in my hand.

Look again I did not hold a minolta camera while going through an aid station. The handheld you see is an ollympus by the way but it was tucked away in my skin suit when I was in a crowd.



Um, well if you say so. Priceless.
First do you see an aid station thats what the poster said I was holding up a camera while going through a crowded aid station. NOT that was about 30-40 seconds after this.
Second it's not a minolta its an olympus water proof camera. this was my back up because I've had problems(even in this race) with my aero bar mounted camera and seat post locking up or running out of battery. The other backup which this video is from is a helmet mounted (on side of my aero) I just had to flick a switch listen for the beep and it was on turn off 2 beeps its off.
I put this one away when it was not safe to do so.. SO as usual trollers just blab don't look at the video or read what was said and always starting sh...t but guess what its in your face..
NO AID STATION.. Go back and read Wildsides post
"Why aren't we pointing out how dangerous Gary Holmes is for riding into an aid station with his fucking "Minolta" camera out in one hand? You see the porta pottys on the right at the end. What is his motivation? "

I was not riding into an aid station if you watch the video(watch both go see the otherone with front and rear camera) we were just over a minute before hitting the aid station thats .3 miles roughly. The hd video where you see me with the camera you can see me put it up before we hit the aid station where I passed everyone. I'll have to post the hd for that section I guess.
I have other video some of the same guys(in fact some who were always up front and having to deal with other riders on their tails then a new group doing same later).
I have some on the out and back of a smaller group I passed twice which split at the turn then I saw them later on the newly paved 388 same people just widdled down some.
So when I get a chance to go through 16 gig of video I'll post this was just the first because I noted the mileage at 34 miles so I could remember it.
I'm a software engineer and damn good one for over 30 years and I'm very analytical. My main body of work now is computer vision so you better get your ducks in a row if your going to argue these lame points.
By the way Wildsides also says he was behind me or thought he was most of the race there are only two Ryans from naples listed in results. One was way faster than I on swim and bike so can't be him. The other was about 8 minutes back at start of bike and I was averageing 22.4 until about 28 mile into the bike when the head winds got me so if hes one of these two hes very confused
because niether were near me.


gholmes

Nov 11, 09 18:56

Post #319 of 397 (8646 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
In Reply To:
  • The draft marshals did a good job. The disgrace lies with those who choose to break the rules.
Riccitello
Point of clarification if you don't mind - most IMs these days leave a lot of athletes with no choice but to break the rules. The sheer volume of athletes hitting the bike course over a short period of time makes it mathematically impossible for all athletes to ride legal, and still ride their own race.



At 32.5km/h, a cyclist covers 2667 meters in 5 minutes. The rules state that riders should keep 7 meters between bikes, so if you add the length of the bike then you need roughly 9 meters for each bike/draft zone. Those 2667 meters will theoretically accommodate 296 riders, if they are perfectly spaced.

Checked the IMFL results and found 280 swimmers exited the water between 1:05 and 1:10. They could, theoretically, ride legal. From 1:10 to 1:15 there were 405 swimmers exit, then 368, 306 and 277 in successive 5 minute segments. 2/3s of the field are packed on the course in a space that is too small to accommodate them and all still be legal.

Hypothetical? Yes, but I think it illustrates well the problem. Sure, some will be legal in that space, but only because there are also groups of 70 milling about three abreast in a space of about 150 meters.

I sympathize with you, having to answer for a situation that is not your creation. It's like the NFL telling teams to field 12 players, but instructing the referees to penalize a team for having more than 11. But this illustration, and the video from the OP, shows that for somebody swimming 1:12 it is highly probable they will at some point on the bike, be in a position violation unless they sit on the side of the road for 20 minutes until the steady stream of wheel-to-wheel riders abates.

More officials and bigger penalties aren't going to have any effect, unless the density on the bike course is properly managed so that the athletes intentionally breaking rules are isolated.
Maybe to some level early on but theres no excuse for those larger packs..
I agree some what the first 5 to 10 miles dependin on the course. Louisville I did not see that thanks to time trial start with 2916 starting.
If all these riders are stable going same speed then your point is taken but its not a linear world there. you have varying speeds and abilities amongst the bikes and as long as they are moving to pass and dropping back things should spread out over time and they do. I came out at 1:19 plus 6 minute transition(you need to account for that as well) I was very suprised how little bunching
went on the first 20 miles maybe because I was riding fast and passing most of the time but it was not impossible to keep from drafting. The videos are at 34 miles into the race...
And I do agree too many people for mass start,flat course without a lot of turns things get bunched up early but once they spread out theres no excuse.
If you watch the videos or if I could show videos between theres large gaps with no bikes. I made effort to pass them
then get passed back but they still were in formation.. I've done 29 of these 28 halfs probably over 250 triathlons in my time and I've never gotten a penalty been racing since 1986.
blocking and drafting like this at 35 miles into the race theres no excuse.


(This post was edited by gholmes on Nov 11, 09 18:57)


gholmes

Nov 11, 09 19:09

Post #320 of 397 (8628 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
But it isn't like car traffic on a highway - it is in fact bicycle traffic on a highway, which means that you have inadvertently hit on a reason why 2 or 3 abreast is prohibited. On an open course, you can't have riders spread out across the road as that will cause all sorts of issues with traffic, race officials etc. It creates a seriously dangerous situation for the riders because vehicular traffic is then squeezed on the roadway and the risk of accidents is exponentially greater - as is the chance that riders in the vicinity will be involved.

The other reason? If three or four lanes of riders are spread across the entire road "passing" what about the guy behind who is actually faster than any of them? The drafting rules are very loosely written, and open to pretty broad interpretation, including yours. But I can tell you that the scenario you present will actually build the pack, not control it.
First theres some truth in what you say just the math is bit simplistic.. you really need to consider some qeueing models(which I'm not very good) and throw in some real numbers from timeing
and conditions and cyclist interaction its not a linear system its actually more of a statistical model I'd think.
Actually it is unfortunatelly many drivers do not drive correctly.. 2 lane highway (same direction) right lane is for cruising ,exiting and entering. Left lane is for passing some states its a law and technically you can get a ticket for riding continuosly in left lane on the freeway but rarely enforced aka blocking. drafting is illegal too (following too close) maybe except for big trucks.
you see wolf packs form on highways when cars bunch up and theres always some a..hole hanging in the left lane.
3 lane roads(same direction) middle lane is cruising right lane is exit,entry and left lane is for passing. Now yes in high traffic situations its almost impossible to maintain these rules for sure.
But in triathlon you sort of have the same.. You can pass person in front of you using the left side of the lane. Even enough room for another rider to pass both of you.(thats about the limit most roads) Both of you should be doing that pass in 20 seconds or less so your moving.. The whole system sort of revolves if everyone is doing it right. slower bikes get pushed to the rear and gone as faster bikes come and go.. Once you get past the first 5 to 10 miles its workable. But these videos were at 35 miles look at the space behind on the rear camera video after they pass me first and second time... look how much gap in front on the front view and the hd cam video...looks like plenty of room to me all it takes is someone to make the effort like the poor guys who's up front most of the time in these videos with all the others pushing them and grouping up.. Happened to me when I passed them then couldn't stay at speed and they all passed me again it wears you out.


oldandslow

Nov 11, 09 19:45

Post #321 of 397 (8582 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Very small point of order but Wildsides said exactly "No. I think I was behind this guy all day." He never said he was "right behind" as in drafting behind you, or that he saw you. In fact he was 8-20 minutes BEHIND you throughout the bike ride, exactly as he said.



(This post was edited by oldandslow on Nov 11, 09 20:10)


TryScott

Nov 11, 09 20:07

Post #322 of 397 (8561 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
In Reply To:

By the way Wildsides also says he was behind me or thought he was most of the race there are only two Ryans from naples listed in results. One was way faster than I on swim and bike so can't be him. The other was about 8 minutes back at start of bike and I was averageing 22.4 until about 28 mile into the bike when the head winds got me so if hes one of these two hes very confused
because niether were near me.
Maybe he meant behind as in 'not in front and not near.' Like if I ever run a marathon that Ryan Hall is running, I'd be behind him (by over an hour).

Thank you for taking the time to make the videos and reply to the postings. Hopefully it will help future races. ST geeks worry more about drafting on a bicycle more than we worry about debt, crimes, religion, education, you get the point... it's a big deal in our world. That last sentence was supposed to be funny, but it really sounds harsh. Screw it, I'm not changing it.


TryScott

Nov 11, 09 20:10

Post #323 of 397 (8558 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [oldandslow] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

oldandslow said was I was trying to say, but he said it better.


gholmes

Nov 11, 09 20:21

Post #324 of 397 (8533 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [oldandslow] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Very small point of order but Wildsides said exactly "No. I think I was behind this guy all day." He never said he was "right behind" as in drafting behind you, or that he saw you. In fact he was 8-20 minutes BEHIND you throughout the bike ride, exactly as he said.
I took it more that he was saying he witnessed that I staged all this at an aid station and I was out of control using the "minolta"(it was olympus) while going through the aid station and he witnessed all of this. Now if I'm wrong then my mistake. I made no assumption that he was drafting. I've not singled out any rider for drafting or blocking personally. In fact theres a few guys in there its obvious they are trying to break away but can't up front you can tell because second time around they are still up there.
I'll let those watching come to their own conclusions. Yea some of the numbers I can make out but its usually the lead bike who isn't drafting or someone way back. I did call the numbers out in the audio but decided not to leave that on the audio track but I do know some of the numbers. Not out to accuse any one person just to show what I've witnessed the last 10 years at ironman florida as the number of entries have gone from under 1800 to 2600 or so in the last 10 years.


gholmes

Nov 11, 09 20:27

Post #325 of 397 (8523 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

The other video is here same location on bike course just goes on through aid station where I pass and then get repassed by the same group. no music this time.
this is dual with front and rear view synched as close as I could manually.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzghRuoUw2k

Then for fun or if you want to get sea sick heres handheld during swim and t1.
I put slow motion at 1st turn bouy as well as a freeze shot just so you can see how crowded at first turn it was. Actually I've been there when it was worse.
If you can stand the jerky video I guess without getting sick stabilization didn't work too well.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2rmU34gN6Hg


Onetimepad

Nov 11, 09 20:40

Post #326 of 397 (8191 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Gholmes...

Don't get flustered by these dipshits. You did a great thing and I imagine there will be copycats galore, which is also a good thing. I must admit, there is nothing better than watching these dipshits take pot shots at you when you very clearly know your shit, have race experience and can crush their feeble points with empirical data and video.

Lets hope it makes a difference!

ADW




kjsmitty

Nov 11, 09 20:54

Post #327 of 397 (8176 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Lots of cheating going on here. Par for the course the past few years. There #'s should be matched to a name and posted. Yeah....I did an IM but cheated. What is becoming of this sport. It must be something that our Ex-president named Billy Boy Clinton started. It's OK to lie & cheat.


'luga

Nov 11, 09 21:16

Post #328 of 397 (8163 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

The large gaps with no bikes are because reality is not linear like the model. With all those riders in that limited distance, if they can't avoid infractions in a linear model how can you possibly avoid infractions when the fleet is not linear, and there are gaps formed ?

A quick recap:the rules state that a) you have to maintain 7 meters between bikes, so combined bike/zone is 9 meters, and b) you must ride on right side of road unless passing. Putting that many athletes on the road in a short time span will, under those restrictions, at some point on the course, result in packs forming. Experience tells us this - at IMFL, many other races, and during the morning commute in pretty much every major city in North America. And a pack of cyclists is like a big, comfy feather bed. It feels great when you get in to it, and it is really hard to get out!

Let me ask this, just for the heck of it - when IMs had 1200-1500 participants, was there a ever much discussion about how large the packs were? Better yet, ask the top 100 guys out of the water how many large packs they saw....


imsparticus

Nov 12, 09 4:48

Post #329 of 397 (8072 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Well, good for you. I did the race the last 3 years and will be there again next year too. I do the race for me and race against only myself and the clock. I really don't care what others do as long as it doesn't interfere with me (which their drafting doesn't). Two guys where drafting off me on the newly paved portion about 20-30 miles from the finish and it didn't bother me a bit. I might feel different if I had a chance for a Kona slot, but I don't. It makes no difference to me if I finish 35th in my age group or 55th, as long as I had a good race. But thanks for your video.


craigo

Nov 12, 09 4:51

Post #330 of 397 (8069 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bad929] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Aha! Therein lies the question.

Does anyone truly care about drafting rules?

Solution - draft legal racing.

This is the only solution.

Why are people so afraid of draft legal racing? It's already the norm. Der!


wiffcheese

Nov 12, 09 4:57

Post #331 of 397 (8061 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [imsparticus] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Well, good for you. I did the race the last 3 years and will be there again next year too. I do the race for me and race against only myself and the clock. I really don't care what others do as long as it doesn't interfere with me (which their drafting doesn't). Two guys where drafting off me on the newly paved portion about 20-30 miles from the finish and it didn't bother me a bit. I might feel different if I had a chance for a Kona slot, but I don't. It makes no difference to me if I finish 35th in my age group or 55th, as long as I had a good race. But thanks for your video.

I feel the same way about racing for me, but I choose The Great Floridian as my IM b/c it's much less insane with the crowds. You do lose the big race atmosphere, but peace and tranquility is more my speed. Plus, the challenge of GFT vs. IMFL course wise isn't even comparable.....not even close. I think I went upwards of an hour at a time w/o seeing a car at GFT.

Like you, I am not a contender for an IM slot.....it's more about the journey. If you ever get bored with IMFL I would highly recommend checking out Clermont. The citrus farmers of Clermont are much nicer than the North Florida red neck too!


(This post was edited by ride2eat on Nov 12, 09 4:58)


klehner

Nov 12, 09 5:01

Post #332 of 397 (8058 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
My experience is the motor bikes are a danger. You do not always hear them coming. They do not yell on your left like most folks do when they pass. So just my experience.

Dave

Sounds like you are the danger, if you are not able to check over your shoulder to see if anything is approaching before you pull left. I hope you do better in traffic.
----------------------------------
Of course, with your ears stuffed with outrage cotton balls, all you heard was, rahrahra, govt comes to get your guns, rhahrahrah, stamp out your FREEEEEDOM! - slowguy


imsparticus

Nov 12, 09 5:02

Post #333 of 397 (8057 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [ride2eat] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I did the half at Clermont. Very tough. Granted much tougher than IMFL. At Clermont I didn't like the the traffic in town and didn't much like the run. I do like the big race atmosphere of IMFL.


h2ofun

Nov 12, 09 5:14

Post #334 of 397 (8037 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Med Tent Man] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Ken, what type of life do you have that you spend so much of it attacking others. Clearly you must be perfect, which I clearly am not, but I sure do not try to attack others
since what gives me the right to judge?

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


klehner

Nov 12, 09 5:20

Post #335 of 397 (8031 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Ken, what type of life do you have that you spend so much of it attacking others. Clearly you must be perfect, which I clearly am not, but I sure do not try to attack others
since what gives me the right to judge?

Dave

I'm not perfect, and I expect to be called out when I make a mistake or show myself to be an ass. I just assume you have the same attitude.

Tell us why a passing motorcycle is a danger to you, instead of attacking me with your sarcasm. Do you not bother to look over your left shoulder before pulling out? Passing traffic is not a danger; not paying attention to overtaking traffic is the danger.
----------------------------------
Of course, with your ears stuffed with outrage cotton balls, all you heard was, rahrahra, govt comes to get your guns, rhahrahrah, stamp out your FREEEEEDOM! - slowguy


Bmanners

Nov 12, 09 5:31

Post #336 of 397 (8016 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Med Tent Man] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

At NYC I got boxed in with from the Computrainer Motorcycle film crew having to check up speed because of a slower rider in front of me going down hill. Then someone else decided to make a move and come around me leaving me no place to go. Said slower rider in front of me hit brakes harder going down hill. I looked to see if I could pass and right into slow rider I went . Had time to hit brakes but no time to move far left. Do not know if that has anything to do with you and h2o but did you read it all?
__________________________________________________
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xtremrun

Nov 12, 09 6:15

Post #337 of 397 (7982 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [imsparticus] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm with you man. I've done the race 7 times and will be there next year. I came out of the water around 1:11 and had a huge pack come up on me around 20 miles into the course. I went off the front 5 or 6 times and each time would be over taken and spit out the back, the peleton would slow to 18 mph, I would catch them and go again. I finally managed to break clean after special needs but the damage was done. I limped in with a 5:13 marathon. But I will be back and I will battle the drafters again! Hopefully in alot better shape. I have done 14 IM's including Canada, Germany, Austria, and Brazil and I have seen drafting in everyone of them. Until the drafting penalty is a DQ or No Kona Slot there will always be drafting.


'luga

Nov 12, 09 6:50

Post #338 of 397 (7950 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
And the cause is ?
too many athletes in too short a distance to ride according to the current stated rules


dgunthert

Nov 12, 09 6:52

Post #339 of 397 (7948 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [xtremrun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Yanking Kona slots for people caught drafting won't stop it. As I said earlier, most, though not all, of the people that are in these packs aren't in contention. They just can't be bothered enough to ride legal because they're just out there to finish and aren't "racing". DQ seems a bit harsh for a first infraction, but it sure would make people careful. The more I think about it, the more I'm convinced that penalty laps are the answer.


h2ofun

Nov 12, 09 7:12

Post #340 of 397 (7909 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Med Tent Man] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Sorry, I just do not try to call people out in a negative way. I love to ask questions, since I can always learn something from anothers experience or opinion.

As they say in life there are no dumb questions, just dumb answers.

What gives me the right to call out anyone for a "mistake", let alone my opinion that someone showed themselves to be an ass? I do not think anyone does this on purpose. Some of us write better than others.
Some have better grammar or choice of words. But, I sure have found in life when I assume the positive in someone, even if I THINK I could take another person comments negative, it keeps me out of trouble. I try to ask back with a question to make sure I heard what they were trying to say. 99% of the time, guess what, I did not hear correctly what they were trying to say. And the times I responded with the half empty assumption, yep, I am the one who feels and looks like an ass.

But off the soap box.

You already have your opinion and answer to a passing motorcycle has no danger, so why would I even try to offer my experience might be different. Clearly, your opinions are the only correct ones.

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


h2ofun

Nov 12, 09 7:14

Post #341 of 397 (7901 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Bingo, and they just keep adding more athletes, so clearly, WTC is concerned about drafting.

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


h2ofun

Nov 12, 09 7:21

Post #342 of 397 (7885 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [dgunthert] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

If you owned this business, do you really think you would be thinking of ways to piss off your customers? Do you really think the WTC owners do anything other than when they hear another bitch thread as been posted on ST than laugh all the way to the bank?

Yes, the vast vast majority of racers, in Triathlons and running events are there for the fun and to meet THEIR goals, which is to do nothing more than finish. Have you not heard the same bitching from marathon folks that the "walkers" are destroying their sport. This is why I keep suggesting it might be time to start with a blank sheet of paper and make a set of rules, classifications, etc. that fit into TODAYS customers, not the ones from 20 years ago. Both sets have/had totally different goals!!

Why not make a class of racers who have the no drafting set of rules on them. They are the only ones who can get a Kona slot or podium spot. What percentage of folks do you think would sign up for the we are just out to finish and have fun and you can keep all your snobby rules to the folks with the egos. It might be quite high. But why would WTC want to change anything. They fill races in a day. The same folks who complain keep coming back every year and giving them their hard earn cash.

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


'luga

Nov 12, 09 7:23

Post #343 of 397 (7881 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

as in "bank" drafting???


h2ofun

Nov 12, 09 7:27

Post #344 of 397 (7872 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

What is bank drafting?

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


dgunthert

Nov 12, 09 9:37

Post #345 of 397 (7805 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm not addressing whether or not WTC has any incentive to change things. I agree with you that in the short term they don't.

I'm not also not addressing whether or not they should change the drafting rules. My point was simply that for the rules that they have adopted, they need a more effective enforcement policy. That said, I don't think they should change the drafting rules. Even with drafting being illegal, there were some ugly pile ups from people riding in the groups. Second, I'm old school in what I think a triathlon should be even more so for those people that are doing it as some sort of life goal. If you're goal is to finish, why is not a goal to do it on your own according to the rules of the game? That's what I don't get. You just want to finish? Great. But did you really rise to that challenge if you cheated to do it? Yeah, I know you don't consider drafting "cheating". But as I said earlier, you don't seem to think the word has any definition. At the very least, you think it's a term that has to meet some subjective threshold.

You're analogy to marathons doesn't hold. People that walk a marathon aren't signing up with the intention of disregarding rules that they don't think apply to them. Few people sign up for a marathon with the intention of cutting the course or using rollerblades and then still calling themselves a finisher.


h2ofun

Nov 12, 09 9:50

Post #346 of 397 (7789 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [dgunthert] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Clearly the topic of drafting and many other things in our sport have folks on one side or another. We just have different opinions, and there is nothing wrong with that. The goal is to find common ground, which today I think we have by the rules. Now, if someone can convince WTC or USAT to change the rules, great, go for it. But until that happens, our sport is run by rules, not by folks opinions. You draft, you get caught, you get a penalty.
No big deal, life goes one. As I said, when folks start blasting the Pro's when they get a drafting call and call them cheaters, then maybe I will revisit my thoughts. Right now I do not think we apply the "cheating" comment for drafting the same across all that do our sport.

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


Ryoz

Nov 12, 09 10:56

Post #347 of 397 (7732 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Clearly the topic of drafting and many other things in our sport have folks on one side or another. We just have different opinions, and there is nothing wrong with that. The goal is to find common ground, which today I think we have by the rules. Now, if someone can convince WTC or USAT to change the rules, great, go for it. But until that happens, our sport is run by rules, not by folks opinions. You draft, you get caught, you get a penalty.
No big deal, life goes one. As I said, when folks start blasting the Pro's when they get a drafting call and call them cheaters, then maybe I will revisit my thoughts. Right now I do not think we apply the "cheating" comment for drafting the same across all that do our sport.

Dave
So if you dont get caught its not cheating? Rules are the rules even when people are not watching.


leggett24

Nov 12, 09 11:47

Post #348 of 397 (7688 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
The other video is here same location on bike course just goes on through aid station where I pass and then get repassed by the same group. no music this time.
this is dual with front and rear view synched as close as I could manually.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzghRuoUw2k

even better than the first video


miwoodar

Nov 12, 09 11:57

Post #349 of 397 (7673 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Now, if someone can convince WTC or USAT to change the rules, great, go for it.

I don't think WTC/USAT is interested in changing the rules. Look at all the free press they are getting right now in these threads. ST could be talking about a bazillion other topics (for instance, B2B) but IMFL keeps coming back to the top of the list again and again.


gholmes

Nov 12, 09 12:54

Post #350 of 397 (7608 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
The large gaps with no bikes are because reality is not linear like the model. With all those riders in that limited distance, if they can't avoid infractions in a linear model how can you possibly avoid infractions when the fleet is not linear, and there are gaps formed ?

A quick recap:the rules state that a) you have to maintain 7 meters between bikes, so combined bike/zone is 9 meters, and b) you must ride on right side of road unless passing. Putting that many athletes on the road in a short time span will, under those restrictions, at some point on the course, result in packs forming. Experience tells us this - at IMFL, many other races, and during the morning commute in pretty much every major city in North America. And a pack of cyclists is like a big, comfy feather bed. It feels great when you get in to it, and it is really hard to get out!

Let me ask this, just for the heck of it - when IMs had 1200-1500 participants, was there a ever much discussion about how large the packs were? Better yet, ask the top 100 guys out of the water how many large packs they saw....
I agree too many people starting same time but once you get 5 to 10 miles down the road.. NOTE this video was 35 miles into the bike. Things are spread out there is plenty of room.
this group (some in the group not everyone) and others make no attempt to not ride together..
think this year because of the fast tail wind on front beach road first 5 miles it wasn't as bad because didn't take as much to pass folks. I pretty much year after year end up in the left side repeating "on you left" the first 5 miles anyway" once on 79 its very wide and it is easier to pass folks which lends to another poster talking about road width it is a factor.
your assumeing everyone has to be lined up but actually if theres some passing they will be on the left passing moving forward as others are dropping back until things settle down.
you have to consider "Steady State conditions" your assuming bam at time zero all these bikes are on the road and have to be exactly 7 meters apart in a line.
no theres the initial IMPULSE(sorry my old engineering class work is coming back to me) response then its settles down to the steady state on down the road with some outliers along the way.

PLEASE Some statistical Queueing theory Brainiacs CHIME IN because my total knowledge on all of this is minimul...

yes probably most of these riders are all in the same comfort zone riding so they will clump together but its up to the athlete to force the issue. Some break away some fade back
OR do as the pros do they pretty much do a legal pace line and rotate to the front at least most of the time.. These guys are not they are just hanging and the one or two guys up front can't get away. I tried to get away a few times an in the past when I was better shape and younger I actually could break away from some but then they'd come back sooner or later.
the special needs stop before the turn breaks things up pretty well.. Adding some pinch points like that would help I think as well.
What I meant by non-linear is its more statistical over the length of the course. you have athletes with various abilities different speeds so just saying 500 came out within say 5 minutes
now way they can line up 7 meters apart. Well that might be true short term but this isn't a continous stream.. MAN I wish I was like professer epps on "Numbers" tv show.
Would be great if we could get someone like that to explain this or tell me I'm full of crap AND get him to figure out a way to maximize marshal use and other methods to
break up big groups in a finite pipe..
But if I could show you the hour 45 rear video feed I had you can see how open it is at times I really didn't see any big pack(more than 2 or 3 people not riding 7 meters) until 34 miles into the ride. I hear there were more upstream as well and I got passed by another one..
I've done this race 10 times at various speeds and times and almost everyone things started somewhere on highway 20 with a few packs on 79 going north. I do believe now its 4 lane and wide
now almost all the way then theres plenty of room to pass and get moving which is why I didn't see that as much but then we hit the head winds on 20 along with some auto traffic passing and coming the other way groups tend to bunch up..

This is not some new problem I'm sure some basic queueing theory like used in traffic analysis ,network traffic along with some human interaction thrown in
could lay some light to this.. I tried to write a simulation of ironman louisville back in 2007 I downloaded all the splits(the athlete tracker). they had 4 mat splits during the bike as well as 4 or 5 for the run as well as t1,t2. Not ideal because you have to either assume between mat splits they stayed at the average speed for that leg or get more complicated and figure in interaction with other riders,aid stations and so on but I got bored with it and moved on it took so long to download the athlete tracker splits(I wrote a program to fetch it with tcp/ip via the http link automatically). I might have to go do that again just to get the model built then if I can get better info expand that. But I have a day job and 3 more ironman races next year as well as more video to go through so might be a while.. Maybe when I retire.


gholmes

Nov 12, 09 13:06

Post #351 of 397 (8592 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons ['luga] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I have rear camera video from inside t1 until probably 40 miles.. My front camera(under aero bars) locked up on me and I didn't notice until about 9 miles into the bike when I switched to the second camera(to cover after first battery ran out) after I spent some time trying to get the first one going.
But the rear shot shows how separated things were even then at least as I was passing people and as far as you can see down the road. the cameras are 170 degree wide angle lens so looks distorted.
I'll get some clips(youtube allows max 10 minutes which should be enough) to show how spread out it was this go around the first 10 miles or so you'd be suprised.
Now granted I came out in 1:19 with 6 minute transition and don't know right now the arrival rate of swimmers to riders on the course at that time (you can pretty much see as I'm exiting the transition)
wish I had front view for that part a bit dissapointing but the rear shows as I pass people of course we had a great tail wind on that stretch.

so when I get a chance I'll post some of that as well its not high def though like the helmet cam.


Deej

Nov 12, 09 13:32

Post #352 of 397 (8548 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Chris Lieto twittered this yesterday: "Talked w/ Ironman & things will be changing with the drafting. Watch what you do, because people are watching. Beware!"

Head down, thumbs up, give'r


devashish_paul

Nov 12, 09 13:40

Post #353 of 397 (8543 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

So let me get this straight.
  1. You were on the road and out of T1 in 1:26.
  2. Aside from perhaps 1 or 2 athletes that can make up this deficit in an older age group (like 65-69), no one that you filmed is gunning for a Kona slot or a podium.
  3. So its not like any of these guys are even trying to get a leg up on the next guy in their age group for some "prize".
  4. These are people willing to cheat themselves just for a faster time.
  5. In which case, why not just sign up for a marathon where the bike time is 100% irrelevent (there is no bike time)

Sorry, but this detail had escaped me. I thought you were filming front of pack guys gunning for prizes watching Kona slots ride up the road from them and feeling like they have no choice but to hop on the train (you can always choose to not hop on the train but....)

Dev

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h2ofun

Nov 12, 09 14:10

Post #354 of 397 (8501 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

And if all these "cheaters" did not sign up for races and have a good time for THEIR goals, we would either have no races, or they would be a LOT more expensive.
Be careful what you ask for. The few FOP folks do not pay for the races, it is all the MOP and BOPers.

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


devashish_paul

Nov 12, 09 14:27

Post #355 of 397 (8491 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Dave....calm down. I'm just saying that the FOP folks who justify drafting say they "need to" because person XYZ is getting a free ride up the road for their KOna/podium spot. They justify this behavior because the guy who is trying to "steal their lunch" is doing it. But for the guy not trying to beat the other guy and just better themselves, what is incentive in getting a free ride aside from laziness, or bragging about a fast bike split/overall time to impress someone else?....in the latter case the athlete is cheating himself. In the former case the athlete is cheating himself and the competition, but justifies the "cheating oneself issue" with "its part of the competition rationale"

Dev

cervelo.com (P3) |infinitnutrition.ca | bushtukah.com
Whiteface Hill Climb + Epicman Lake Placid 3k/180k/21k June 5/6 2014, Epicman Tremblant 10k/260k/42.2k 11-13 July 2014


gholmes

Nov 12, 09 14:29

Post #356 of 397 (8485 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
So let me get this straight.
  1. You were on the road and out of T1 in 1:26.
  2. Aside from perhaps 1 or 2 athletes that can make up this deficit in an older age group (like 65-69), no one that you filmed is gunning for a Kona slot or a podium.
  3. So its not like any of these guys are even trying to get a leg up on the next guy in their age group for some "prize".
  4. These are people willing to cheat themselves just for a faster time.
  5. In which case, why not just sign up for a marathon where the bike time is 100% irrelevent (there is no bike time)

Sorry, but this detail had escaped me. I thought you were filming front of pack guys gunning for prizes watching Kona slots ride up the road from them and feeling like they have no choice but to hop on the train (you can always choose to not hop on the train but....)

Dev
Well I did pass a ton of bikes first 25 miles..I was averaging 22.2 until about 25 miles until the head wind on highway 20.
last year I was about 20 minutes up the road, 1:13 5:17 bike last year. I'm 54. not super fast but not back of the pack.

I was 5th in age group and got a kona spot in 2002 at this race. with 1:17 swim and 5:12 bike and I had to blast through a lot of packs back then.
I've been seeing these packs for years even when I was faster 10:18 in 2002. I was 10:30 last year after a long couple year burnout.
they still distrupt everyone elses race you either have to slow down let them go or try to out run them because I refuse to join them. I'll ruin my own race just to not drat which sucks.
But if you ask around some of the front runners its the same up the course as well. I know a guy who went 9:52 and he said it was worse than my video up where he was and he had a flat at 60 miles.
doesn't matter whether they were gunning for kona spots. I think I hit the run at 7 hours about 40 minutes slower than last year.
I was slower this year due to dislocated shoulder earlier in year not completely healed, sprained ankle 2 weeks prior(hurt the run and run training) and pulled soleus 4 times over the last 5 months so was not at my best for sure. Had better race at louisville 10 weeks earlier. I wish florida had been 3 weeks after that would have been different.


gholmes

Nov 12, 09 14:35

Post #357 of 397 (8476 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Deej] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Chris Lieto twittered this yesterday: "Talked w/ Ironman & things will be changing with the drafting. Watch what you do, because people are watching. Beware!"
yep my guess they will ban cameras.... I used one at nol 70.3 ,gulf coast ,memphis in may. Used the 3 camera setup at ironman louisville(front rear) but funny wasn't able to get any packs at that race..therefore i didn't post any... hmmmmmm Wonder why......Uh could it be time trial start and lots of hills......and they had 2916 starting.

Interesting video though you can see all sorts of situations that come up folks chargin up a hill then dying and your right there do you pull back 7 meters after they pass and die while your
going up steady even power or do you just keep going and pass even though you didn't drop back..

first hill you have bikes all over the road at 8 miles at louisville.. Do you try to back off 7 meters in the crowd only to have more bikes 2 abreast behind you come along and back off more
while your all going 8 mph what do you do... So yes there are situations where you get stuck and probably both of those are observable by a marshal to know what happened and some leeway
given.. Even had to pass a couple of folks on the right after 3 "on your lefts" a few times it happens.. But theres no excuse for what my video shows not any attempt to clear out in the packs.


h2ofun

Nov 12, 09 14:47

Post #358 of 397 (8459 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Dev, who cares what it is for them. Why should anyone else even waste their energy worrying about it. Is it hurting anyone else? I am just glad they are out there staying in shape. I am glad they are helping cover costs. These are all good people. Why do some spend so much time trying to say they are real real bad people for having different values and goals that some of the lucky people with good genetics and lack of injuries have. If our sport would spend more energy trying to include, rather than exclude based on their "opinions" of what is right or wrong, our sport would be much better off.

And I do not really care if it is FOP or MOP or BOP. I do not care if they draft or take drugs. When I get home it has not impacted me or my family in one bit, unless I let it. Will ANY of this make any difference on our death beds?

Just a total waste of energy. Who really cares about beating anyone else? There is always someone better. With my back injury, my racing days might be over. Sure glad I have not wasted a lot of energy trying to force my values onto others. Lead by example, and keeps opinions to well how about the mirror in the morning. :o)

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


gholmes

Nov 12, 09 14:48

Post #359 of 397 (8458 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Flanagan] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
In Reply To:
what cameras did you use? I've wanted to get a handlebar cam to catch vehicular assaults for a long time.

Here is a link to an amazing camera that a local Cat 2 has installed in his helmet. He records 3-4 hour road races on there in HD, so it must have a ton of storage capacity. http://vimeo.com/user527841/videos

I'm pretty sure that Bryan would be willing to divulge the hardware/software setup he is using to record this stuff.
battery life is more a problem than storage and 8 gig sdhc card will hold 4 hours on the vhold hd I believe but battery life is 2 hours.
the helmet cam I was using will hold 8 hours on an 8 gig card I think if standard def at 60 fps.
the gopro cameras I used were limited to 3 hours(with 2 aaa lithium batteries) 2 gig per hour I had 4 gig card in there but software limits 4 gig file so I have to stop it at some point and restart
4 gig is 1:52 or around.
new cameras coming out will take 32 gig card plus external battery but won't be waterproof with the attachment)
gopro and vhold have 1080p versions coming out now.
theres even one company with stereo camera so you can do 3d with glasses using software after you take the video.
theres some amazing video out there where a mountain bike race put camera on a boom on his helmet with ball bearing attachment so camera swings in 360 around him looking at his face
then he just tilts his head and it swings amazing video especially when put to music. Base jumpers over in norway(with the flying suits) are using the new gopro hd camera to test.
Awesome footage.. Actually triathlon bike legs are quite boreing video if you ask me...


devashish_paul

Nov 12, 09 17:33

Post #360 of 397 (8391 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Sorry man, but I don't want a bunch of cheating lying douchebags coasting their way to artificial times at T2 in the sport, even if it means they have healthier lives. I'd prefer that they go workout and play weekend touch football or in the local softball league if they want to totally cheat while being healthy.

If you've done this sport long enough you'll get a drafting penalty here and there. That's fine, with the number of folks on the course, at times even the most clean guy can get stuck in an iffy situation and gets dinged by a marshall. No worries. Its happened to PNF and Tim De Boom on thier ways to victory at Kona.

It's the folks playing in our sport who blatently get into packs and do nothing to ride clean....so yes, I don't want those folks in the sport no matter how healthy they are physically. Go play some other sport, just don't come to play non drafting triathlon please.

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roadhouse

Nov 12, 09 17:40

Post #361 of 397 (8396 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

did this drafting take place throughout the enitre ride or was it just the first few minutes and miles into the ride? i know the rules and i'll gladly abide by them myself but i just think that under those circumstances, with so, so many people and not enough road (width wise) that it's feasible for a few minutes as everyone sorts themselves out. now if it was like that the entire time than of course it's a blatant disrespect for the triathlon..
It's not about the bike, it's just along for the ride.


kjsmitty

Nov 12, 09 17:48

Post #362 of 397 (8378 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Lets start putting bid #'s to names and post them. This may put a stop to this cheating.


Bmanners

Nov 12, 09 17:48

Post #363 of 397 (8378 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Dev one simple answer "LEGALIZE DRAFTING"
Of course that would mean the run portion would be a bit more competitive for the "natural" or runners who work hard to run "natural". Of course then the cyclist " Rodies:" would want to get rid of our cool TT bikes w/aero bars and we cannot have that.
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kjsmitty

Nov 12, 09 17:50

Post #364 of 397 (8375 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [roadhouse] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I love how excuses are made.


h2ofun

Nov 12, 09 17:50

Post #365 of 397 (8375 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

All I can say is this would not have been the kind of person I thought you were based on your posts I have read over the years.

As I said, life is way way to short to get so worked up over these stupid games we play, IMO.

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


p2k2001

Nov 12, 09 17:53

Post #366 of 397 (8372 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
yep my guess they will ban cameras[/quote]You really think so? Unless there is some type of safety problem with a camera setup I think a ban on cameras would be seen for what it is, an attempt to quash the evidence. I don't think it is too far in the future when everyone will have helmet cams (at least when training), which can be used kind of like a black box, which is a bit grim to think of though.


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kjsmitty

Nov 12, 09 18:02

Post #367 of 397 (8360 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [p2k2001] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

They will follow the Whitehouses lead. Ban your free rights.


devashish_paul

Nov 12, 09 18:25

Post #368 of 397 (8336 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [bmanners] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

All you guys talking about legalizing drafting....why don't you just go sign up for a marathon or a 10K if you don't care about the bike.

Seriously, if you allow drafting, I'm going to laugh all the way to the bank since I am an above average runner for a 44 year old guy. A draft legal race favours, me, but that's not what its about. I'll just get some of my best buddies to sign up for every IM with me and tow me to T2 without ever putting my nose in the wind and uncork a 3:10 marathon at every IM after he pulls me to a 5:00 ride on a course like LP. That's bullshit.

Its about guys playing or not playing in the rules.

Like I said, when there is some early congestion, it is possible for honest guys to momentarily get caught in a group just because of the sheer density of folks on the road.

But after a short time, there is no excuse.
  • Courses don't cause drafting or packs
  • Lack of marshalling does not cause drafting or draft packs
  • People who choose to not play within the rules cause them


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rick_pcfl

Nov 12, 09 18:55

Post #369 of 397 (8308 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Dev, who cares what it is for them. Why should anyone else even waste their energy worrying about it. Is it hurting anyone else? I am just glad they are out there staying in shape. I am glad they are helping cover costs. These are all good people. Why do some spend so much time trying to say they are real real bad people for having different values and goals that some of the lucky people with good genetics and lack of injuries have. If our sport would spend more energy trying to include, rather than exclude based on their "opinions" of what is right or wrong, our sport would be much better off.

And I do not really care if it is FOP or MOP or BOP. I do not care if they draft or take drugs. When I get home it has not impacted me or my family in one bit, unless I let it. Will ANY of this make any difference on our death beds?

Just a total waste of energy. Who really cares about beating anyone else? There is always someone better. With my back injury, my racing days might be over. Sure glad I have not wasted a lot of energy trying to force my values onto others. Lead by example, and keeps opinions to well how about the mirror in the morning. :o)

Dave
That is too funny. How much energy have you wasted telling people not to waste energy talking about drafting? you've probably got more posts on this thread than anyone but gholmes. take a look in that mirror and look at yourself instead of others. sad, but hilarious.


h2ofun

Nov 13, 09 5:13

Post #370 of 397 (8249 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [p2k2001] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Yes, they should ban cameras. They are a potential safety issue. It takes your focus on riding the bike.

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


leggett24

Nov 13, 09 5:35

Post #371 of 397 (8238 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
All I can say is this would not have been the kind of person I thought you were based on your posts I have read over the years.

As I said, life is way way to short to get so worked up over these stupid games we play, IMO.

Dave

We have have different impressions of Dev. This is exactly how I would expect him to respond and I agree 100%.
I'm not shooting for a Kona spot, it's just not going to happen, but expect the people around me, the people I'm racing against for 575th place, to race clean. This sport isn't just about Kona and podium spots, the rules are rules and you don't get to cheat just because you won't win.
I did Clearwater and the blatant cheating left a very sour taste in my mouth. I haven't done an M-dot race since.


h2ofun

Nov 13, 09 7:18

Post #372 of 397 (8199 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [leggett24] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Let me be clear. I cannot stand folks who knowingly break the rules. I have seen the drafting, I have seen the cut the course, I have seen the pacing, outside assistance, water temp was 77.9, etc.
Yes, I have seen athletes ignore the rules, and I have seen RD's ignore the rules. BUT, after many attempts to try and deal with some of these issues, and always ending up being the "bad" guy for asking why the system does not enforce the rules, I have gotten to the point of who cares what others do. It does not impact me since I am only doing the sport for me. I have been attacked many times on ST for asking why rules are not followed, like ipods in a race, and I get slammed. I just smile now when some of these same folks who ignore the ipod rule, get on their high horse about drafting. Too many of these folks have selective rule enforcement attitudes.

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


jackmott

Nov 13, 09 8:35

Post #373 of 397 (8158 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

i have a fun but irresponsible idea

someone who is a fast swimmer bring a paintball gun on the bike with them

bike slow, so that you get to see every peleton go by

paint every drafter with the gun


Quintana Roo - history and technology
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter


wolftri

Nov 13, 09 8:43

Post #374 of 397 (8151 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Always amazing - you pay $500 to get towed around a course and hopefully get a kona spot. Hardest part is the fast girls who get caught up in all the packs of men because a guy won't let them pass.


styrrell

Nov 13, 09 8:57

Post #375 of 397 (8139 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [h2ofun] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I have selective enforcement attitude. I absolutely disagree with you that the highschool runner should have been DQd for wearing underware with the wrong stitching. What I do believe is that rules should be rigorously applied where a competitive advantage is taken.

Let me ask you a real life example. I did a tri quite a few years ago where the ruls stated you had to have a helmet number. They also had a rule prohibiting littering. The helmet number wasn't sticky and fell of almost imediately. I doubt any competitor finished with the number on the helmet, most were on the pavement as you exited T1/T2. Would you have DQd all of the athletes at the race?

One other question. In past threads you take great pride (and rightfully so) in qualifying for the WC. If you were one spot out and a pack of 5 competitors in your AG passed you on the bike that really wouldn't bother you?

Styrrell
Styrrell


Deej

Nov 13, 09 9:11

Post #376 of 397 (9177 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Happened across this today - the gopro setup:
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/11/13/gopro-introduces-the-hd-line-of-hero-cameras/
http://www.goprocamera.com/index.php?area=2&productid=29

Head down, thumbs up, give'r


h2ofun

Nov 13, 09 9:13

Post #377 of 397 (9173 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [styrrell] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I think you touched on the key words, competitive advantage. Remember, I think it was New York Tri or something a few years ago. The first pro's ran the wrong part of the run course. Technically by the rules it seemed they should have been DQ'ed. I took this position and got my ass handed to me by Charlie. He told me he made the call to not DQ them since he determined they got no competitive advantage. So, looks like the USAT rules were not as black and white as I have been told to believe.

What would I have done as an official on the helmet numbers. Great real life question. Since the head official makes these calls, I would have done nothing. But, I am still not 100% clear when USAT follows the rules by the book or when they throw in the competitive advantage. I know in my USAT marshall training, we were told to give out drafting calls, no warning. But from the WTC training from Jimmy, he made a big point to warn folks since he does not like to see tons of calls made unless it is needed. So, I have gotten very mixed messages over the years as to what they organizations really want to do about rule calling.

I have said that folks that draft piss me off. (Or cut the course or any of the other rule breaking I have seen over the years, littering included, which I am guilty of having done in the past). In a race this season, the guy who beat me drafted and I was not happy, and this was just a local race. But, the series had a 250 free entry into next year so there was real money on the table. He ended up winning the series over me. Am I happy he "cheated" to get the win? Nope, but I can say I did not draft at any race, just did the best I could.

Now that I am hurt and am wondering if I will ever race again, it really has me spending a lot of time thinking how much does some of this stuff mean at the end of the day. Is it worth getting folks upset by saying racers, officials and RD's should follow and enforce their rules? I guess I am just trying to pick my battles a little better. :o)

Dave
http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidedwardcampbell
"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience." – Mark Twain
"If you argue with an idiot, there are two idiots” – Robert Kiyosaki
VHS to DVD http://h2ofun.net/...eoConvert/index.html


mrevets

Nov 13, 09 16:35

Post #378 of 397 (9102 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm impressed with the videos you have posted. I would have loved to have a videocamera mounted to my bike so I could remember the day. Always heard about the big drafting packs, but I am in the back of the race so I never really get to see the big packs. The swim video was great. lets me show my co-workers what the race was like. Thanks for posting them. again, very impressive.

Mr Steve
Ironman IMFL 2009


ES10Ziggy

Nov 13, 09 17:26

Post #379 of 397 (9064 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [mrevets] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

After getting out of the water in 56 minutes, I found myself in one of most discouraging situations I have ever encountered in Triathlon. Prior to IMF, I had asked many fellow athletes how to manage the problems of drafting packs. Many were very honest and told me they were inevitable, others simply reminded me of the rules. I have always cherished the individual effort of Triathlon so considering using a pack to aid my bike split was never an option. I also believed many people felt that way as well. I can tell all of you- I will never do IMF again because of this problem. Getting caught up in groups can be problematic on such a course as Florida but there are specific rules around overtaken, drafting, and 7 meters. If you follow them, while frustrating at times, everyone can ride honest! But it seemed 90% of the athletes who passed me and even race management were less interested in preserving the sports integrity. With the head wind rocking the first 40+ miles out, packs were a huge advantage and people were blatantly cheating. Im not talking 2-3 meters but 1-2 feet from each other. Softpedaling while hammering 25 mph in 15 mph headwind...seriously? I biked an honest 5:30 and felt every bit of that on the run. Thats what makes up an Ironman. I never intended to save 40% energy letting a pack pull me over 112 miles only to do my best Ryan Hall impression. Call it strategy, course management, or skill and you're lying to yourself and this sport. I know that my respectable sub 11 hour 1st IM does not have an asterisk beside it. Does yours?


Jocke

Nov 14, 09 2:47

Post #380 of 397 (8982 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [ES10Ziggy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I raced IMFL as Pro. After a very bad season with a very bad pirirormis syndrome i did the race just to have a nice race before the winter training. I didn´t do much biking during the last 3 month so i expected to get caught by a few AG...
I had a bad swim (googles knocked off by wave) and did a 1:04 swim. That left me all by myself for the first 150km on the bike and did a 4:53h bike. I got caught by a couple of AG groups of 4-8 rides blasting past me...they rode within 2-3m of each other. On the small loop I meet a group with 30-40 riders and they looked as they were in a road race. When i friend got past by that group it was a crash with 3-4 riders involved. A group crash in a IM!

So i can say that many of the FOP AG did draft, not only the MOP in the movie.

Sorry for the bad spelling, just got back to Sweden. Been up for 24h with a jet lag...


Ryoz

Nov 14, 09 4:14

Post #381 of 397 (8966 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jocke] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Just setup spotters on the course, call out drafters over a 2way between 2 points, at several sections on the bike. 1st time 10 min, 2nd time +20 more, 3rd time DQ.


FJB

Nov 14, 09 5:10

Post #382 of 397 (8948 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [snoots] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

the rest are all people who were potentially just as frustrated by the congestion as the next guy.

If by frustrated you mean "so upset that they just sat up and coasted" then yes I would agree.


jaretj

Nov 14, 09 5:22

Post #383 of 397 (8942 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Toby Tri] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I agree too...It looks like too little road, there are a lot of people sitting up and only a few real drafters.

jaretj


....

Nov 14, 09 7:27

Post #384 of 397 (8893 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Tricky Dick] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Well, here is IMC 2009...It's one of the pelotons I saw and a small one. There are no reasons to see drafting there, but you do anyway. Heck, Embrun in the Alps is also a big draft fest. There is drafting because people don't care.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tMtXX8IKGI


gholmes

Nov 14, 09 21:15

Post #385 of 397 (8798 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Deej] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Yep I hoped to have had the new 1080p go pro but as of ironman week they had not shipped.
Mine are standard def 170 degrees. the new ones should be better and some future accesories will help.
The helmet camera was by vhold called contour HD 720 p they have a 1080 p version coming out this month as well.
I've had mine since april used one at nol70.3 first,


gholmes

Nov 14, 09 21:19

Post #386 of 397 (8793 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [FJB] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
the rest are all people who were potentially just as frustrated by the congestion as the next guy.

If by frustrated you mean "so upset that they just sat up and coasted" then yes I would agree.
nope didn't happen you might find one person in that pack maybe showed frustration but they were smiling takeing it easy back there I saw it live in addition to takeing the video.
there was no frustration from the guys I saw and the same group passed me again just short time later..


gholmes

Nov 14, 09 21:23

Post #387 of 397 (8792 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [jaretj] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
I agree too...It looks like too little road, there are a lot of people sitting up and only a few real drafters.

jaretj
I'm telling you they weren't I was there witnessed it in person while taking video. there was no sitting up out of frustration. they sat up because they were in the draft and
did not have to work against the wind. I know I was passed again by the same group after the aid station after I passed them...
if they weren't drafting they were blocking just as bad they mad no effort to even go through. I went through them twice but they caught me again because when I got in the wind I couldn't stay away. Just ask the 2 or 3 guys who were up front trying they were with these guys longer than I was.


gholmes

Nov 14, 09 21:54

Post #388 of 397 (8780 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
All you guys talking about legalizing drafting....why don't you just go sign up for a marathon or a 10K if you don't care about the bike.

Seriously, if you allow drafting, I'm going to laugh all the way to the bank since I am an above average runner for a 44 year old guy. A draft legal race favours, me, but that's not what its about. I'll just get some of my best buddies to sign up for every IM with me and tow me to T2 without ever putting my nose in the wind and uncork a 3:10 marathon at every IM after he pulls me to a 5:00 ride on a course like LP. That's bullshit.

Its about guys playing or not playing in the rules.

Like I said, when there is some early congestion, it is possible for honest guys to momentarily get caught in a group just because of the sheer density of folks on the road.

But after a short time, there is no excuse.
  • Courses don't cause drafting or packs
  • Lack of marshalling does not cause drafting or draft packs
  • People who choose to not play within the rules cause them
Ditto Dev...no excuse no one to blame but those who are drafting.
I'm about to post a video and Transition distribution by the minute and its going to show that pretty much the 5 to 7 minute surrounding my exit time(1:26 and change) the most athletes
hit the bike. Its also going to show there was plenty of room as I'm passing a ton of riders. The video will be 8 times speed to condense 56 minutes into 7(20.5 miles at my average speed at that part of the course) So much for the argument too many coming out of the swim at same time and you can't help drafting.. Pretty much after the first half mile or so its wide open for the most part
where I was and considering an average of 63 to 64 per minute were coming out for that 5 to 7 minute period it couldn't have gotten any worse... a previous poster said 400 and high 300's
for I think 1:05, 1:10 etc but that was swim exit... I added in transition times and that shifted things quite a bit..
What you have is a built in valve to cut the arrival of bikes on the course down from the arrival of swimmers..
Between wetsuit stripping,narrow run through the tunnel to pick up the bags and then a long narrow runway to the change building(convention center) and back out to the far end of the bike rack (again a narrow path) it acts like a valve or pinch point to reduce the outflow of bikes.. amazing....

I'll be posting that video in a bit.


DrewP

Nov 14, 09 22:03

Post #389 of 397 (8772 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Is this still an issue?


FJB

Nov 15, 09 9:00

Post #390 of 397 (8710 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

If by frustrated you mean "so upset that they just sat up and coasted" then yes I would agree.[/reply]
nope didn't happen you might find one person in that pack maybe showed frustration but they were smiling takeing it easy back there I saw it live in addition to takeing the video.
there was no frustration from the guys I saw and the same group passed me again just short time later.


I was actually agreeing with you.


gholmes

Nov 15, 09 9:07

Post #391 of 397 (8702 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [FJB] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
If by frustrated you mean "so upset that they just sat up and coasted" then yes I would agree.

nope didn't happen you might find one person in that pack maybe showed frustration but they were smiling takeing it easy back there I saw it live in addition to takeing the video.
there was no frustration from the guys I saw and the same group passed me again just short time later.


I was actually agreeing with you.[/reply] My bad been spending so much time on the videos and trying to read all the posts and its been difficult to keep up with who's saying what.


tom1376

Nov 15, 09 11:05

Post #392 of 397 (8667 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [ES10Ziggy] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I jst did Clearwater and was amazed at the drafting - I have never seen anything like that before. I always thought when I do my first Ironman, it's gong to be when I am in shape enough to give qualifying for Hawaii a shot and I would do Florida. After seeing the drafting, I am probably going to switch to Lake Placid. I would be really pissed if I missed a slot for Hawaii because I raced fair and other people were drafting the whole time.


GREG_n_SD

Nov 15, 09 11:21

Post #393 of 397 (8659 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I think it's hilarious....they are all riding Aero bikes, aero helmets yet sitting up in their base bars....if your gonna cheat and draft you may as well take advantage of it and cross the yellow line to pass everyone.

Team Beam


jaretj

Nov 16, 09 11:07

Post #394 of 397 (8511 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I was not there so I will have to defer to your interpretation. I would not have the awareness of what is around me that you have. You are able to look around and see everything for yourself where I'm looking at only one angle.

The camera provides a bit of tunnel vision that obviously cannot tell the whole story to me. I do agree that people are much closer than they should be.

jaretj


gholmes

Nov 16, 09 12:15

Post #395 of 397 (8464 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [jaretj] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
I was not there so I will have to defer to your interpretation. I would not have the awareness of what is around me that you have. You are able to look around and see everything for yourself where I'm looking at only one angle.

The camera provides a bit of tunnel vision that obviously cannot tell the whole story to me. I do agree that people are much closer than they should be.

jaretj
the camera was 170 degree wide angle lense so distorts things some but the argument was it was impossible not to draft and road was packed with cyclists.
I'm just not one of those types that can dig down in aero for 5 plus hours and stay focused on myself. And this wasn't my first ironman race or triathlon so I'm not new to any of this been racing for 24 years doing ironman races since 1991 and quite a few of them.
I AM very observant when racing just way I am. I get made fun of all the time from my team mates(terrapin racing) because I remember so many things from a race including where other people I know were when I saw them how far ahead or behind at turns. But I can almost after a race give in some detail almost every mile of my race just from memory...
thats why I don't post race reports because before I know it its 100 pages long because I remember pretty much every minute and have a very bad filter..
The video is just icing on the cake now I can remember more I guess.
I'm constantly keeping an eye on things.. I wear a mirror for safety but also keep in view folks trying to hang on my wheel as well as others coming up fast to pass and working to stay out of their way even signaling them with my left hand go ahead say when I'm passing a group. Just the way I am. thats why I remembered the mile mark (34.5) when I took the helmet cam video..
Trust me (or not I don't care) but there was plenty of room around me going up 79 more so than last years race where there were packs spread across the road so things this year were an improvement. Even the packs I saw on 20 were smaller than last years which prompted me to finally do this after 10 years of watching it happen.


(This post was edited by gholmes on Nov 16, 09 12:23)


gregtryin

Nov 16, 09 13:54

Post #396 of 397 (8424 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [gholmes] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

gholmes, good for you doing the video. Far more people seem to support your objection to drafting than not. I have tried to keep up with this thread, but I am not sure I have read every single post. Given that, pardon me for suggesting something here that may have already been mentioned.

How about WTC putting about 5-10 cyclists out on the course with cameras front and rear with enough definition to pick out race numbers? Put them out there like 'unmarked police cars' and tell everyone they will be on course in addition to the marshals on motos. Give the rider a boom mike to call out numbers as well so there will be no mistake. That way, the guy could ride along in stealth mode as long as needed with a pack and gather evidence. After the race, penalize all of them 30 minutes or even an hour. Some amount that is so egregious there is no way they can make up the time drafting.

These guys could be just more or less sitting there at an aid station acting like they are exchanging bottles or something and then take off when a pack comes through to take down numbers.

Would it work?

Greg


Ironma'am

Nov 18, 09 9:36

Post #397 of 397 (8291 views)
Re: Helmet cam video ironman florida pelotons [Jimtraci] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I've done Florida the last 4 years. This year I saw more marshals, less drafting, and people in every penalty tent. No, it wasn't perfect, but I found it easier to ride clean this year than any year before. I applaud every step in the right direction. Thank you, Jimmy.

 
 
 
 



Ironman prize money
In the wake of the infamous 7th place prize money bonus at IMLP, where do you stand on Ironman's prize money? Is Ironman a penny pincher? Is the lack of a pro outcry the pros' own fault? Or is there no problem and the money is correct now?
Ironman should up prize money
Pros at fault for their timidity
The money is appropriate now