That is priceless. So many violations, one doesn't know where to start. I'm so glad I only do shorter races that are devoid of such behavior

Thanks!

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"Go yell at an M&M"

thats why im never doing imfl

Cool footage - but even cooler music!!!!

What a joke that is - but the organisors wouldn't give two hoots - it's all about cash cash cash to them and WTC.

It just looks like a dangerous place to be.

Oh wow, this is gold. Lets play "spot the Slowtwitcher!"

Are you Canadian? If so you should get a Queen's birthday honour for services to the sport :)

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blood, sweat...and big gears

I hated every minute of training, but I said, ''Don't quit. Suffer now and live the rest of your life as a champion.''
- Muhammad Ali

I liked all the guys just sitting up and coasting. Sure helps improve your run that way!

George

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I miss YaHey

that is awesome, that pack was soooooooo huge they were even crossing the centre line as well..................

Wow! That is sad.
Did anyone notice your cameras and say anything? Like "Please don't tell all my Slowtwitch friends I am one of THOSE guys?"

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________________________________________________________
Ben Waite | Zipp Senior Design Engineer | The Power of Bicycles: Please contribute to World Bicycle Relief | Zipp | SRAM | Quarq |

At Beach2Battleship, after the first 5 miles of passing a few folks, I saw exactly two riders for the remaining 107 miles. What a contrast.

At IMFL, can it be avoided (I'm sure some of the blatant stuff can, but you get my drift) when you throw 3,000 people on a course in a short time span? I'm just asking. I haven't been there, so I don't know.

I am almost certain I saw you on the course - black aero helmet with cam attached to right side? If so, you passed me on the first 7 mile stretch of the ride, so I can't be one of the guilty :)

Anyhow, great footage. Being that this was collected out on Hwy 20 (30+ miles into the race, into the headwind) it represents a good sampling what I saw occurring as well. None of this "it was real congested," "I couldn't 'not' draft," etc... It was 30 miles into the ride. Plenty of time to stretch things out.

As mentioned in another thread, the first penalty tent was full, but that was it. The other tents were EMPTY when I rode by. When I saw the first few peletons/pace lines go by and one small group get carded (on Hwy 79) I had faith that maybe the playing field was going to be leveled for the day. Nope, just for the first 35 miles...

 Did you knock anyone down? You look pretty unsteady out there.

I had folks turn and smile for camera. Say hey is that a camera. I said yep and I just got video of you drafting..
I remember one girl much later in a smaller pack on 388 right after we turned from 77 to go west in a pack. "hey just another saturday group ride" no remorse whatsoever.
I've got more just got to get time to edit and post.

Wait until you see the rear camera shot.

I have some swim video as well first turn bouy crowd. Wetsuit strippers.etc from myhandheld waterproof.
I've been working on getting this last few years.

I actually called out some of the numbers on the audio track but I'm not quite ready to let that in the open and some of the things I was saying as they went by were well lets just say nice...

Looks like a wack group ride. lol

I can't wait to see the other videos...

You know if the bib numbers go public on slowtwitch, we will have their home addresses and wife's SSN on this thread in less than 10 minutes...a la Finman.

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________________________________________________________
Ben Waite | Zipp Senior Design Engineer | The Power of Bicycles: Please contribute to World Bicycle Relief | Zipp | SRAM | Quarq |

I never saw a draft marshal at least that i could tell saw couple of motorcycles saying race support.
Early on I was starting to think hmmm maybe won't see the packs this year because last year there were some on 79 in first 10 miles(I don't expect things to break up before that on front beach road but the tail wind helped this year) But then they didn't dissapoint I looked in my mirror and sure enough here they came so I flipped on the helmet camera. My aerobar cameras were on all the time as was the rear(at least first 2 hours worth due to battery life).
Yes this is on 20 thats where every year this happens like I said my 10th ironman florida and I've witnessed this every year theres always(at least where I am)
2 to 3 packs with lots of empty space in between..
I passed these guys a little later as they clogged up at an aid station and then they passed me again I'll post that next still in a group.
Have some of the short out and back with a smaller group but much tighter.

Seriously, I only spotted 3 things that I would consider drafting 'violations' if I were mashalling; the rest are all people who were potentially just as frustrated by the congestion as the next guy.

When I did IMFL in 2007, there were instances where I either came up an a pack (I rode 5:34) or was overtaken. I sat up in each case, with one hand on the bar and the other on my hip, or taking a drink or eating or something; I did not INTEND to draft, therefore did not tuck in behind in aero, I pulled the parachute... but I wasn't going to slam on the brakes, either, due to the congestion on the course. I saw MC marshalls, shook my head, one even gave me a little finger salute...

It does come down to what many are saying - too many people on too little road at the same time, but the marshalls have to consider INTENT to properly enforce a clean race, IMO...

Thats just a snippit. don't give me that crap they just got caught up and were frustrated in the congestion.
Drafting,position violations,blocking its all there..
I have rear camera view and hand held which will show more. These guys were not frustrated they weren't moving they were coasting setting up relaxing no one made any effort to go past them or drop back. Yes there are a couple of guys who were up front who were not drafting and one or two moved through everyone but these folks were not frustrated.
about a minute after this they all came to an aid station and I passed them all pushed a little bit to get further away but as soon as they got through they caught back up with me(same people almost in same position) then they went by again. I'll post that next. Trust me I know the difference in drafting I've been experiencing this for 10 years at ironman florida.. this was my 29th ironman race. I spent most of the year finding the right cameras and testing them in races just for this race.

Best video ever! I am shocked even though i've heard about the drafting for a long time. Soft pedaling and not in aero...who can see numbers and shame these cheaters publicly!?

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"the trick is to keep losing weight until your friends and family ask you if you've been sick. then you know you're within 10 pounds. if they start whispering to each other, wondering if you've got cancer or aids, you're within 5. when they actually do an intervention, you're at race weight." - Slowman

Great video, what equipment did you use to take.

Man, if that is how many IM's are, not thanks. A lot of them seem to just be out for a weekend recovery ride. Guess this is why I love the shorter stuff,
it is pedal to the medal the entire race!!!

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I saw a couple pelotons WAY worse than that at IMC.

They are just about all wearing aero helments. Which means there are going to be lots so STer's in there. (Because ST is just about the only place people drink the aero helment koolaid for 112 mile rides.)

Great shots.
Please share the rest.
Also show us the set-up of your helmet or bike with the cams.
Thanks for sharing,

Did you get any shots of the lead Age Groupers on the out-and-back? You know, the guys that go 9:10 in Florida with 65 minute swims and then get their asses handed to them in Kona? I'd enjoy that.

I am not too sure what is more douchey. The drafting happening or you taking your Iphone and plethora of cameras with you while "racing".

I said 'potentially' caught up and frustrated...in my experience, it happens too. And from a MC it's hard to tell the difference. Blocking, maybe, but if you're overtaking, and the guy doesn't fall back, then where are you going to go? They're already 3 abreast, the only way to overtake further is to cross the centre line, also a no-no...

IMO, more consideration has to be given to INTENT - if you're head down, grinding in a pack to KC (i.e. cheating), it needs to be treated differently than if you're just benefiting from an overcrowded course. What would you say is the solution to what you see? They can't all drop back... I never said that penalties didn't need to be stiffer, nor that we didn't need more marshals...

If there is more video to watch, I'll watch it - great footage BTW...

How is it douchey to provide some real evidence better than word of mouth that there are real drafting problems at some of these races?

I think TD must of been caught in the video! :)

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Two words.. BITE ME..
What iphone? I had a helmet camera mounted to my helmet all I had to do is flick a switch. Then I had an aero bar mounted camera running full time and one on my seat post.
If you think that s doucey you can kiss my (well you know what part of body I'm talking about)
Other than say some aerodynamic drag they had very little affect on my race or my handling ability. I did have my backup olympia waterproof camera which was held by a long string around my neck tucked into my desoto suit which you can see in the video.

I'm not some rookie here.. I've done 29 ironman races, done hawaii 7 times this was my 10th florida and I'm 54 years old so if thats douchy so beit I old enough I couldn't give a F....K anyway
I just got fed up with the drafting at florida these past 10 years I finally decided to whats the quote "if there aren't pics it didn't happen" well heres video and more than 20 seconds.

It's douchey because we all know that at Florida there is drafting. "we" as in the athletes, directors, promoters, sponsors et al. Taking an Iphone, and attaching cameras all over your bike to capture the drafting that "we" all know is happening is ridiculous. Don't race Florida and the race directors and promoters will take notice. But while they are constantly making money by continuously selling the event full, there will be no changes. Stop racing there and they will take notice. You don't really believe that the WTC doesn't know that there is drafting in Florida do you?

It is also douchey because the only reason the douche did the race was to get evidence of drafting. Save your entry for someone who wants to race. Make videos from the sidelines.

As bad as that is, I wish the pack I was stuck in was that broken up. I wouldnt have been that upset.

yes it can be avoided.. I've done 10 of them. I avoided it and I have video to back it up. Granted first 5 to 10 miles probably not.
BUT these guys there were gaps in front and in the rear I was by myself alot then bam here comes a pack its been like this every time I've done this race.
BUT if the riders don't make any attempt what ya going to do. I've sacraficed my race sometimes to avoid drafting trying to out ride them then pass them multiple times but they always speed up when you go by thinking about another free ride.
Granted 2800 people starting is just asking for trouble and with the head wind we had.
Louisville it was almost non existant at least the packs with the time trial start. Now the hill at 8 miles in the bike was a bit crowded but after that there were no packs that I saw at louisville.

Watching the video 2 things are clear---the drafting is bad, and you make the decision to be stuck in it or not. This Zapruder Holmes video is proof that you don't actually have to draft, you can let the pack go as he did.

But sure, you're upset. I believe you.

BS... thats helmet cam I was turning my head to get the picture I was steady. Note I was riding to the far right on the bike path I stayed there when they passed.
My bike handling skills were not in question. When I get the other rear mount and aero bar mount cameras synched I'll synch with my gps data so you can get the speed we were going.
Might not work as well as my louisville video's because I had my front camera lock up at around 10 miles and had to power off and back on so I can't sync gps data with the bike start will
have to use the turn matt or one of the turns to get it all up.. Quicktime lets you create a text file and overlay that text on video at certain time points. I wrote a program to take my tcx file
from garmin output a video text file with each trackpoint with speed,heartrate,distance and then I overlay that on the video but it takes some time and I have to find sync points in the video
plus the gps lags a few seconds on the data but hopefully can get some of it to show the speeds.

This is a pretty piss-poor excuse. Drafting in triathlon is a penalty, like holding in football. The question is not why did it happen, what was the intent. It is simply, did it happen? If the answer is yes, then the penalty is called.
Certainly there are times that not drafting can be difficult (I am not saying this is or isn't one of them) but in the end it is your responsibility to not do it. It is the draft marshalls' responsibility to call you on it if you do it.

is it legal to carry a camera with you on the bike?

That is some bad cheating. I've never seen anything like that.

Also, I tried to get a slot for IMFL and missed out! So sad.

Great shots.

You actually happened to catch some footage of a guy from my club who always braggs about his IM bike splits and insists that he always stays clean and never, ever drafts.

What a low life hypocrite!

Triathlon really has become the cess pool for scumbags.

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Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

Like I said these guys weren't even making an effort.. Now I will say if you watch the first few guys were passing the other they were fine then I think one more was making effort and then you had some riders in the rear trying to stay back out of the mess. BUT once I got this footage and did my dropping back I passed them just fine.. This was about 50 seconds of video.

READ MY LIPS You dumb MF like I said that wasn't an iphone thats against the rules no communication equipment.. It was a helmet cam It took no effort other than turn the damn cameras on.
I didn't do the race just to get evidence... I've done every florida except 2006. I did the race because I like doing ironman races I have friends with a beach house(the one with elvis and the girls all dressed up in costumes at mile 1) I do it every year with friends.. I just wanted to finally show some video of drafting. Your such a Douch bag

My post race hormones are acting up for sure.

AWESOME!

As for the camera, they make some great helmet cams that I've seen motocross riders wear. I think you can get HD quality for up to 3 hours before the batteries go.

When are they going to wake up and have some type of wave format, especially on flat courses.

You've done your share of IMs and I'm close to your age and have done 14 IMs starting in the mid 90's. There has to be a solution. Waves, penalties, smaller fields, etc. It's been discussed but I haven't been back to IMFL since 2001 and have no plans of ever racing there again.

Can't wait to see the rest. I would send a copy to the WTC and the race director.

I've been carrying a camera for the last 4 years. First helmet camera. Probably will be illegal next year which is why I didn't post any louisville video which was my first ironman test run with bike mounted video cameras.

It is time that douches who think they can draft and get away with it get exposed.

It is time that douches who take podium spots and IMH spots away from people who race honest and clean get wheeded out.

It is time for you to come out and admit that you are in the vid too.

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Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

We know and they know but as long as it's just talk they can deny and deny.
He paid his entry, he raced clean can you really complain?

Drafting is a penalty, yes. But I liken it more to hockey: falling over a stick does not a tripping penalty make. It is your responsibility to make every effort to avoid drafting, to not be caught in a drafting situation. I never said that we shouldn't have more marshals, nor that drafting shouldn't be a penalty, just that there needs to be room for interpretation - which, IMO, is what does happen, WHEN marshals spot drafting. Not everyone caught in a pack is happy about being there, or trying to draft, regardless of whether or not they get some advantage from it...

Priceless!

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Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

Awesome job. It's about time this behavior is recorded and exposed. Nice work.

what cameras did you use? I've wanted to get a handlebar cam to catch vehicular assaults for a long time.

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My training

Thank you for your service to the sport.

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2015 American Zofingen Du is May 17.
R.I.P. Chris Gleason

During the first few seconds of the clip I thought you were the biggest winer ever...and then it started...that is unbelievable...I bet there won't be drafting next year.

hmm. Post pics of drafters? could be fun! Although you might cut the number of people willing to populate slowtwitch by a lot!

Thanks for the video, btw. Been there seen that. Blew myself up a bit last year trying to stay out of the packs. It can be avoided. No question about it.

Can't wait to see the rear shots! Actually hoping to see a few people that I know had way to fast bike splits.

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NCCP certified Comp coach

Never did a IM tried to get into IMFL could not. done some shorter races an I never drafted and it is against the rules so I do not do it. That being said legalize it already. Either that or make a stay behind by three foot rule in the swim and run. Nice video and music.

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__________________________________________________
Official Polar Ambassador
http://www.google.com/...P7RiWyEVwpunlsc2JtQQ

service? What service? He bitched and whined (no offense) about the drafting, he admits to doing the race every year, which in effect is giving the nod to the status quo and reinforcing the business model for that race.

You want service? Instead of facilitating the problem, become a draft marshal. Write an email to the RD, USAT, WTC complaining about what is going on @ the race. Send in the footage showing how unsafe it is. That would be service. Bitching about and posting video over how butt sore you are about the drafting isn't a service.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

The rules disagree with you.

Drafting is illegal under the rules whether intentional or not.

Priceless, can you really blame anyone. I could not see much down the firoad, but imagine it was crowded too. What do you do just stop by the side of the road? I think it is a matter of blame the course, you want fast times go to Florida! You want differentiation of field and perhaps legit Kona qualifiers go to perhaps Lake Placid?

and either way, good luck getting in if you aren't a pro or haven't volunteered on top of your expensive race entry fee.

I think WOW pretty much says it all, thanks for posting.

Thank you very much for this video. Truly awesome....

Boy I disagree. I think he is doing a service as more information is always better (if uncomfortable).

The video is a service. I was unaware of bitching and whining. What are you jumping on me for? I've been a draft marshal and am a RD who creates races that discourage drafting. I've written elsewhere on ST to vote with your wallet. I'll never race IM Fla or Clermont. But a post on ST with actual video footage of draft packs is a service.

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2015 American Zofingen Du is May 17.
R.I.P. Chris Gleason

Really cool footage and idea.

We all hear about how bad IMFL is, but this shows it for sure. With all due respect to one of your critics, I am pretty sure that the race director and governing body already knows about this little problem. Your efforts will only shed public light on it, with video evidence.

If I am the RD, and my race fills up every year, why would I change anything? What successful business changes their model because a FEW people complain?

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Nice graphic video gholmes. I like you am an IM vet of 23 IMs. People that are slamming you on this thread are doing it for a reason. Anyone who plays by the rules would not slam you for recording blatant cheaters. Some have said this is why they will never do IMFlorida. It doesn't have to be that way. I have done IMFlorida 3 times and have chosen not to get involved in the cheating. The last time I did the race was in 2007. I was on the bike going hard and steady but noticed no one had passed me for a while (I am not that strong of a rider so was wondering what was going on). I sat up in my bars, turned around and I kid you not there was a pack of 30-40 riders right on my ass. I just kept up on my bars, let the pack go (I wasn't going to do the work for them) and continued to ride myself. Don't let other people's cheating ruin your ride, ride with integrity.

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Barry Dmitruk
2017: Florida 70.3 (done); Mont Tremblant 70.3 & Ironman

There are lots of simple ways to clean up IMFL. Strip the race of all of its Kona slots until it solves the drafting problem. Problem solved ;).

NICE! Keep em coming.

It seems like an easy solution would be to make two days of racing and split the field in half, with time-trial swim starts. If they already have all the equipment set up for one day, why not just leave it there for the next?

IMFLA seems like a nice race course, but damn that is absurd. Why spend $$ on a P4, Zipps, aerolhelmet, and comp socks if you can draft just the same on a trek 1000?

It happens often, dairies in my state had to clean up their 'poop' better because of local complaints though their sales never changed. Seems like every single gov't legislation is controlled or at least severely modified by vocal small groups. Change can happen it's just with out financial pressure sometimes it's a little harder.

I agree. If we all voted with our wallets, WTC would either change or perish. They're thriving. I don't blame them; I blame the lemmings. WTC should charge $2000 per race.

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2015 American Zofingen Du is May 17.
R.I.P. Chris Gleason

Sweet vid. What type of camera did you use to capture that?

I love the guy that keeps looking back at the cameraman. You can almost hear his saying "WTF? Is he FILMING me? How do I make myself look to be legal...."

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Team Triabetes

I sat up in my bars, turned around and I kid you not there was a pack of 30-40 riders right on my ass. I just kept up on my bars, let the pack go (I wasn't going to do the work for them) and continued to ride myself.

But suppose you were in the midst of being passed by a pack of these riders when, along comes a draft marshal or gholmes with his camera? What then? There you are ... a draft cheat. How long did it take you to "let the pack go" and how did that work? As someone else asked, did you stop at the side of the road? I'm not trying to be a wise ass. I've never done a race like that and drafting has not been a problem (that I've witnessed) at the smaller races I've done (though blocking always is). When I hear the numbers at IMFL, I just can't envision how, for example, a slower swimmer who is a stronger cyclist wouldn't have a nightmare of a time avoiding getting caught up in those situations where they're frustrated trying to work through a clog.

Not excusing. Just asking.

Nice video. You could of shot another one of them lining up for IM gear and a tattoo too.

I'm not jumping on you, I know what a stand up dude you are from multiple people we have in common

I'm jumping on everyone who is complaining about the drafting. We all know that it's going to happen. Youtube is full of that sort of IMFL video already. IS it really a service to re-document what is already known?

But yet, people go to the race(s) year after year, then have the audacity to complain about it knowing full well what they are getting into. ST has had this same conversation now each of the last however many years I've been on this board.

If people really cared about the drafting they would either not do the race(s) that is/are know for drafting and/or they would actually bother to become a draft marshal for those races to solve the problem and/or do some other advocacy.

If you are paying to do that race you are part of the problem, even if you don't draft.


(yes I think the vid is pretty cool but I don't see it as a service)

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Yes let us encourage people to become Marshals, but one thing has nothing to do with the other really.

Every time when we see still pictures of people drafting we hear everyone whining that it is just a moment in time and that it does not say anything. Here is some actual video and I actually appreciate seeing that I wasn't hallucinating when I raced there, or what I saw was not just an isolated incident.

I doubt any of the guys in this video are Kona bound. The fast racers exited the water long ago. The OP swam a 1:16 and if this video is on highway 20, then this could be 30 minutes into the ride. So, anyone heading for a Kona spot, would of already been way down the road, with very few exceptions.

The video is awesome. Give my bike club 10 sets of these cameras and some two way radios. Me and 9 of my buds will spread out along the course, blend in with the riders, and fix the drafting issues.

The funniest thing to me is that there are likely numerous ST posters sweating more today than they did on race day.

but we already knew that, for at least 5+ years.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Hey numb nuts, if you have enough people complaining and shooting video you will be more effective then just not racing.... Shit i would like to see a marshall roll by one of these things on video. That would get us all talking.

"IS it really a service to re-document what is already known? "


Read the IMF race reports.

Read about the awesome race ALL people had there.

Awesome PRs left and right.

Read and hear how ALL these awesome people rode clear and didn't draft.

Then come back.

Do think that jives with the reality on the videos?

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Ego numquam pronuncio mendacium,
sed sum homo salvaticus

That is priceless. How much money and time was spent on aerodynamics Bike, Wheels helmets, etc. only in to sit up in a pack and draft. Maybe every TT bike should come with a rule book.

Been there. Heading up 79 into a head wind. Looked back and there was 20 or so people hanging onto me.

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NCCP certified Comp coach

Knowing is nice, proof is golden.

The course is very much to blame but don't let the riders of the hook. There's plenty to keep people separated at Lake Placid but as soon as you turn on to the out and back and there are no marshals you'll find plenty of drafters (cheaters).

Great. Video Tape all you want. Just don't enter the race. Video from the back of a moto so you can deliver penalties. Don't enter a race that you know has prominent drafting and then bitch about it.

It looks like we agree. We don't patronize races with drafting. It looks like we're in the minority. All the more reason to be a draft marshal and stick it to the majority.

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2015 American Zofingen Du is May 17.
R.I.P. Chris Gleason

Actually, Section 5.1 h (2) and (3) allow for interpretation, based on safety, course blockage, aid stations, turns, etc. or when a section of the bike course is overly narrow, has obstacles, construction, detours, 'or a similar reason'...

But you knew that... ;)

The lady doth protest too much, methinks. (Hamlet Act 3, scene 2)

They are all riding so slow. Who would want to draft off of them?

Hey,

Thanks for the video! I was not planning to do IMFL. Now I know I will not ever consider it. I think the criticism being handed out is BS. If you want a problem to continue, just ignore it!

I suspect that many (no, not all) of the people who do not like your videos are the ones who might show up in them! If anything is going to be done about the drafting, it helps to show just how bad the problem is.

BTW, I've only done one IM, at Lousiville. I will be doing IM Louisville next year. No way I will ever consider IMFL or Cheatwater FL 1/2 championships.

It seems to me the issue is just getting worse. I do all of the TBF races, which is a rolling hill course. Have done the series for years. But this year I really noticed a change.
The drafting, from the sprint to Olympic distance had more drafting than I have ever seen. And what was worse, is the top guys were the ones drafting the worst. The RD's
are going nuts trying to figure out how to deal with it since so many folks bitched. Issue is they cannot put motorcycles on the road since it is open.

I got my butt kicked this year by one of these guys, so I know first hand how people who "cheat" can win. :o(

I have no solution, other than see these top folks draft in a little local race showed their true colors.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Here is a link to an amazing camera that a local Cat 2 has installed in his helmet. He records 3-4 hour road races on there in HD, so it must have a ton of storage capacity. http://vimeo.com/user527841/videos

I'm pretty sure that Bryan would be willing to divulge the hardware/software setup he is using to record this stuff.

If you guys want to see what real road racing looks like, this is the end of a 1/2/3 road race. It was neutralized due to a bad crash. This is the re-start, about 70 miles into the race. Little harder to stay with the group than at IMFL!!!

http://vimeo.com/4007029

great videos!!

those are awesome, how do I get in touch with that guy?

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My training

Man, you deserve the ST'er of the year award! Thanks so much for this, as I have vowed to not go back there as a result of this. That said, more are becoming that way, with now AZ, Canada and even LP having this rampant cheating. I think you may have found a solution here....more cameras! Maybe ST can field "marshals" with these cameras to embarrass WTC to actually do more than lip service to the problem.

how long before he is banned from IM for this "service"?

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Eric Reid AeroFit | Instagram Portfolio
Aerodynamic Retul Bike Fitting

“You are experiencing the criminal coverup of a foreign backed fascist hostile takeover of a mafia shakedown of an authoritarian religious slow motion coup. Persuade people to vote for Democracy.”

dude they only way you couldn't find proof before now is b/c your utilities cut off your service...about 6 years ago.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

Here is his blog: http://breakawaycyclingmedia.blogspot.com/

Maybe try commenting on one of the videos on that blog. Alternatively, post to the MABRA list serve, in search of him or information about helmet cam setups. http://groups.google.com/group/mabra-uscf

Great vids...maybe WTC use your technique to capture drafting violations on all their events...would certainly be more effective than a ref on the back of a motorcycle with a clipboard...

that is, if they and we want to get real serious about this...b2

I agree. Apparently, there are more drama queens in triathlon than I thought possible.

great video of what looks like a poorly organized group ride!?!? Since drafting is obviously not stopping at this race, I like the idea of stripping the Kona slots until something changes

who won that? Seemed like the guys with the Harley logos had half the field but they kept chasing their own team mates down and dragging others up to the break. The camera man was pretty strong, he closed up some painful gaps.

I read that for next year there is a rule change in USAC banning helmet cams along with music players and two way radios in lower categories. Shame, as I find these videos kind of fun to watch.

Wow, that is some plain crappy, confused and stinky riding right there.

Also, just as a factual point of reference. The center line stripes are ~10 feet long and have 30 feet between the end of one like and the start of the next. So with the 7 meter rule there should be the distance of two stripes between each bike.

That is great. The guy is green is coasting.

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Lisa Walser-Anderson, ATC,CSCS

2 words:

GREAT FLORIDIAN

All these responses and not one person mentioned that someone's seat was too high or too low. ;-)

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"your horse is too high" - tigerchik

wow I could ride an IM too! I'll sell the aero helmet, zipp's, P2. In fact I'll sell all the fancy aero crap I've bought over the years on eBay, just ride my comfy road bike and sit in for 4.5 hours.

FWIW, there were a lot of compression socks riding in that pack...hmmm.... any correlation between drafting and wearing compression socks? Is it marker of something, or does all that extra blood flowing to your brain make you do funny things?

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Brian
“Eat and Drink, spin the legs and you’re going to effin push (today).” A Howe

Awesome video. Saturday was my first IM and I have to say I had expected there to be some drafting. I did my best to drop back whenever passed and I saw the Motomarshalls many times throughout the race. The pelotons were kind of disconcerting, but I think the vast majority of folks tried to follow the rules. When I was on 20, I looked back many times and had a nice big gap between me and the riders following me.

One thing that did annoy me though was all of the people who rode in the middle of the road. Why are folks afraid to ride in the bike lane? I had to yell "on your left" to many people when passing them to get them to move over so I could pass without crossing the double yellow.

I can't wait to see more of these videos. I hope I am in some of them.

Let me know if you see me. I was #1564.

Here are two more words: "Sold Out" as in IMF for next year is already full. The rat race will be won next year by a rat, once again.

Harley went 1,3,5,6. They have been the top ranked amateur 1/2 squad in the nation the last two years.

The guy who took the flier at the video start stays away until about 1000 meters. Since Harley had numbers, the group made them chase the DC Velo guy down.

Yea I'm sure IMFL will always be sold out, but I'm going to do another IM in 2011 and it will be GF again. I wouldn't do IMFL if it were free. Completing the IM distance is a personal journey for me and the IM brand does nothing for me per se. I do want to complete a planned IM course with other competitors, but not in that chaos I just witnessed on video. I want to know I did it all....I just think deep down those that do choose to draft can't really feel as if they didn't cheat themselves when they finish.

you are the man

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derekgarcia.com

Priceless with a capital P. Never did an ironman in fact I am a duathlete but given some of the still photos I have seen of IM events (despite the disclaimers given that photo angle makes it appear that there is no drafting), I always had a jaundiced view of what went on in the bike segment. Good good job with the camera!

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Doing Du's since 1987.

wow, I've never been on a group ride this easy!

Congrats, you are an Ironman.

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�The greater danger for most of us is not that our aim is too high and we miss it, but that it is too low and we reach it.� -Michelangelo

MoodBoost Drink : Mood Support + Energy.

As they say in Louisiana, that boo-sheeet. Don't come on hard on this guy D squared. He merely is documenting what is implicitly condoned in IM racing. If IM management wants to crack down on drafting then they would hire a commensurate number of draft marshals to enforce rules. Becoming or volunteering to be a draft marshal is one thing but having IM bringing on the number of draft marshals required to really enforce the rules is the issue at hand. It is a race management issue since IM controls the race.

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Doing Du's since 1987.

Is that club from Maryland?

Desertdude and Tetsuoni. I don't think simply "voting with your feet" solves the problem. I think what Gholmes did actually goes further to solving the problem than "voting with your feet" cause if you choose to not go there are 10 others lined up to go (and potentially draft).

I think athletes who are clean have the right to show up at a race and expect a fair day. While at the moment this is somewhat utopian thinking, the more guys that show up at so called "draft fest races" and choose to ride clean like Konaexpress by dropping back when greeted with a peleton or Eric Roy (you guys saw his bike split in Florida...riding 4:36 out of the age group wave, you ain't drafting no one riding the front of the field with nose in the wind....), the better these races will get.

I don't know how many athletes I have let go by me on the out and back section at Ironman Lake Placid. I know things will even out once the race goes uphill. The topography takes care of the momentary congestion.

Where topography does not take care of "momentary congestion" we the athletes have to lobby the RD's hard to give us:

• reasonable wave starts with proper wave spacings for strength of field and topography....so a flat race will require smaller waves with wider spacing
• better enforcement with the standard motorcycle setup, but with more density. What you really need is the quiet Chinese electric scooters that are totally silent and can go at 50+ kph. The noisy motorbikes are useless.
• more innovative enforcement....any of you guys drive on the highways in England where they have the video cam speedtraps....well we just need more cameras floating around the course like Gholmes
• stiffer penalties, like first infraction show up at the penalty tent and sign in "plus run an extra 1 mile loop at T2". Second infraction "sign in"+ 3 mile loop at T2. If you had to run 3 extra miles of "laps of shame", especially in an Ironman, it would be "game over"

Saying "voting with your feet" is a bogus statement. If you care about the sport, you can't just expect these big races will sort themselves out on their own without guys like you actually doing something about it. Fine if you want to marshal that is a starting point, but still not good enough. We need to change the structure of how drafting is dealt with in the USAT rule book (stronger penalties) and how waves are set up and spaced.

Dev,

Is any of that actually real world and applicable by WTC? Or are we just basically talking the good talk, but nothing really will ever come of it?

I realize it'll mostly change when people simply stop showing up to race, but without that happening you think any of your solutions could ever be implemented? Or are we just dreaming out loud?

1st point: Would wave starts create more "course" time, and therofore have the race to be run later/earlier, and thus create more costs (road closures, police/med. people)?
2nd pt: I'm guessing the quiet scooters would cost more: Meaning higher costs for race, higher costs for racers?
3rd pt: More cameras=Need more money for the race organization= Higher race fees for racers?
4th pt: Actually a great penalty. It more than likely will slow the drafting down, just because people dont wnat the penalty. People dont mind the penalty now, because it's almost still postive net gain. A penalty of that magnittude would atleast slow/ or be a severe enough penalty to actually penalize people who draft.


I'm not trying to argue, just seeing what are actual possible real world solutions. If we want to implement some of these policies, it seems racers have to accept the higher race fees more than likely.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

gholmes- great job man. Yes, we can all do something to avoid drafting. This means you have to try and get out of the saddle and find some open road or fall back and wait to pass legally. All this crap about congestion is just that, crap. Someone has to make a move to better the situation. It's not "What can this race do for me?" It's "what can I do for this race?"
I too have a lot to say on the race course. When these people are getting the benifit of a draft and it is congested, they take total advantage of the situation and ride it out as long as they can. This is weak. triathlonn is a young sport. Time (and unfortunatly money) will fix this problem.
How do you drafters sleep at night? How do you hold your head up?

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"injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere" MLK

Amen, Dev! Very nice post and exceptional ideas. I agree, as I'd love to do IMFL again in a fair battle. It's the most reasonably priced race to do in the US, as it's off-season down there, and sunshine for us northerners is a treasure. We should not have to run from a race simply because we let the drafters win. I did the LD World's in Denmark 1 year where they did have the penalty lap concept, and it was great! The lap of shame. Another great idea with the electric bikes. Lord knows that the IM races bring in enough cash to buy a few of these to police the event....we just need to put pressure on to get it done. Get the petition started, Dev. I'm ready to sign on.

How do you drafters sleep at night? How do you hold your head up?


The same way people who cheat on their taxes or cheat wal street, the Nascar crew chief who changes a wedge adjustment, the football player that holds on every play. They just do it.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I'm not some rookie here.. I've done 29 ironman races, done hawaii 7 times this was my 10th florida and I'm 54 years old so if thats douchy so beit I old enough I couldn't give a F....K anyway
I just got fed up with the drafting at florida these past 10 years I finally decided to whats the quote "if there aren't pics it didn't happen" well heres video and more than 20 seconds.


Dude, you are my new hero for a number of reasons. First and foremost, that many races and that many years of IM racing is damn impressive. I can only hope and dream to come close to those number some day.

Second, seems like you love doing these races. I only hope to continue to have that drive after years of racing.

Third, that video is AWESOME! Cool idea. Good on ya for having some fun with this. I don't understand the hating you are getting from a few posters, but, that is to be expected, I guess.

Anyway, too cool! Well done!

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I dont think your getting the business side of it. WTC isnt going to just do this to be "fair" and because they have enough money. That's exactly why they wont do it. Plus, as a business they arent going to simple waste profit on a product that is already selling out. If we want this to change, we have to ask WTC to raise the price of the race so that this type of stuff can be implemented. WTC is not going to foot the bill, the racers will be footing the bill. Thats just business. I hate that it is that way, but that's how it will be.

Until people just stop doing this race, will WTC take notice and attempt to change or figure out how to get racers back to the race. The next alternative is to tell WTC you will pay them $1k to race your race with officials on super quiet motobikes, camera speed sensors, etc.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Aren't you approaching an aid station in this video? People slow down randomly at aid stations and cause utter chaos. This seems like the reason people are sitting up, weaving and "apparent" blatantly drafting.

Can you get aerial footage next year? :-)

What was the still camera for?

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Well I believe in God, and the only thing that scares me is Keyser Soze

I have relatives in FL.

FL would make a great vacation for everyone, I'd get to see family, the family could come
and have fun. I'd get a race in. It would be win (me), win (my family), win (relatives).

I did SilverMan this weekend. Sherpa thinks that Vegas sucks when you're there for a Race.
Kids stayed at home. Didn't see my relatives.

But hey, IMFL sells out, so guess my feet don't matter. But I still voted with them.

-Jot

You're not getting the fact that that ain't going to happen until many of us are dead. Florida in November is just too damn appealing. The walk away is having no effect at this point. Raise prices as you suggest, and you really drive them away.

But what I'm saying is, your solution suggest that WTC will simply implement this policy because they make so much money anyway; wont happen. I'm saying, that's not going to happen. WTC makes all that money now, it's not going to do something to lose it's profit margin's, and certainly not raise the cost of the race without raising the Race Fees on the participants.

Dev's solutions are great: But your missing one point to his solutions. Racers will have to pay for those solutions to be implemented. WTC isnt going to pay for all of that, and not raise race fees. That's just bad business.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Personal boycotts are meaningless, especially for popular races. You need to understand, that the most important asset of WTC is the brand name "Ironman" (that and compression socks). This video attacks the integrity of the Ironman brand, making a dirty little family secret visible to anyone with an interest in triathlon. Ironman(tm) is supposed to conjure up images of endurance/perserverence/drive/etc., not an endless parade of blantant cheaters. Bravo, keep the videos coming!

Great White North has had penalty run lap for drafting for a few years (at least since 2004).

First offence 1600m lap, second offence DQ.

Hasnt that dirty little secret been know for years about IM FL? I realize it'll create some bad publicity, but again, if you want them to implement Dev's solution: Get ready to pay for it.

People already bitch about paying $500+ for an Ironman race. Can you imagine what they will do if the race fee is $800-$1k+? Thats why I dont see it happening. ImFl is what it is. It's a draftfest. You go race there and do what OP has done and race yourself, or you choose to get in the packs and race that way.

People want to implement an great ideas, but I'm also wondering who is going to pay for that? Obviously WTC is going to jack up the price for the race if we have quiet scooters and speeding camera's, etc.


The solution that I think would be the most applicable and create the greatest deterent to drafting would be an 1 mile penalty run, etc. 5k for 2nd offense. People simply couldnt afford to draft at that point. I'm sure there will be the occassional accidental brake check draft, but I'm guessing these "pelotons", will be broken up tremendously by that type of penalty.

The penalty system now that is in place, simply is not enough to deter people from drafting. Cause someone to do extra work, and sit for 30 mins and people will really think twice about drafting.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

No, Slowtwitch is smaller than you thinkk, even in the triathlete community. More importantly, the weekend jogger doesn't know, but still buys IM(tm) glasses, purely due to brand marketing. As far as Dev's ideas, wave starts or time trial starts would greatly alleviate part of the problem: too many athletes too close together..

So with wave starts: Will that increase costs, for medical personal, lifeguards, police, road closures? I'm guessing some people volunteer, but I've heard like police usually have an crazy salary/hr rate.

How do you have an time trial start on basically an open beach? Wouldnt say people just basically still start in bunches? Unless you basically push people through a starting gate. But at IM FL, isn't the start basically wide open (or atlest 20 yards wide). Time Trial start basically only works when you have a small start area, not an open area.


I'm not trying to argue, I'm just trying to figure out the costs of each of these ideas. Because you can bet your ass that WTC isn't simply going to pay for the extra costs. So is the added costs, worth it? At what cost, are we going to have to pay to race a draft free race?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

BTW, Matty Reed just tweeted your video:

boomboomreed to me this is cheating at its best.... wow. what a bummer to watch. imf2009bikeone.mov http://bit.ly/1rFswD

ST better come up with a community fund to protect gholmes, from the money hungry WTC organization pretty soon! :)

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I think gholmes will be fine. I'm hoping his video and the play it's getting will cause WTC to take a serious look at how out of hand drafting has become at some of its races and actually investigate ways to reduce it. But I'm known to be optimistic ;)

Better yet. Enter the race, videotape the drafting. Ask for a refund.

Funny I was just thinking today on my run that a helmet camera would have been awesome on the bike at Ironman Hawaii this year. I can say with certainty that Kona was a draft fest this year for the AGrs. Packs formed just like this. I saw ONE marshall all the way out to Hawi, about a dozen times. At one point a huge pack (peloton) was sitting up the road, the motorbike/marshal pulled up next to the pack & nobody broke it up. They all sat there shoulder to shoulder & wheel on wheel. 2 to 3 minutes go by...then the marshal drives off without flashing a card or writing down a number. Methinks WTC may put marshals out there for looks once in a while & write up a few penalties just to make it look good. But the opportunity existed for that one instance alone to write down anywhere from 15 to 20 numbers & then flash them a naughty card. WTC has made more IM races, let in more athletes (making it a safety hazard in many races), diluted the Kona slots (okay, this is unrelated to my point), increased fees (I paid about $175 for my first Kona). It really is becoming quite a circus event (WTC races). Now would be a great time for NORIMAN events. Yep, Iron (reversed)-man. Which means, some great group of race directors come & and correct a lot of the issues WTC has in their races (such as field limit sizes across all races NEVER to increase--unrealistic once they see the $$ coming in or increase in costs of putting on the race). If so many want to experience Kona, I wonder if Kona would allow a similar race on the same course? Unless WTC has the public roads TM'd for their use only. Just a few "ranting thoughts". Let the roasting begin...

Why not just have IMFL be a draft bike course? I mean what's the point...it would require ya swim your ass off to get out first with the lead packs and make the marathon quite interesting. Just put asterisks by new course records. Would it be too dangerous? Well if everyone knew in advance that it would be a drafting course, squeamish folks wouldn't apply. So you'd have a 2.4 swim, road race and marathon..that way everyone is on a level playing field unless you bring fins. ;)

Time trial starts.

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2015 American Zofingen Du is May 17.
R.I.P. Chris Gleason

Not my call. It would serve the anti-drafting movement well for WTC to make a matyr of him. Whistleblowers that receive retaliation make great press.

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2015 American Zofingen Du is May 17.
R.I.P. Chris Gleason

Time trial starts. With massive fields like IM Fla start in groups of 5 or 10 mixed racers of varied ages and sexes. It's easy to do with the state of the art of chip timing. More cameras. Laps of shame for penalties. However, until these changes are instituted, I'll not return. Life's short. I'm not going to be a martyr to the anti-drafting cause allowing myself to be taken advantage of by cheaters on principle when it costs a couple of thousand to race one of these "events" between entry fee, airfare, hotel, rental car, meals, etc.... I'm not going to piss away an A race in my prime by entering one where I know I'm going to be taken advantage of. I'll support local, grassroot events and live hassle free and happy. I'm selfish that way. I don't like crack dealers and their clients either, but I'm not going to aggravate myself and waste my time trying to stop what they're doing. If the police, or WTC, don't enforce the rules, then those that participate will live self-deluded, meaningless lives.

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2015 American Zofingen Du is May 17.
R.I.P. Chris Gleason

Now there's a thinker. Love your work.

I thought IMFL was a draft legal race based on the video.

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=channel


pathetic.

That one is cool where you see the flow of the race for a bit as well as a lot of open road to ride legal.

The draft looked good as you could tell some decent soft pedaling going on...

That's incredible.

Begin watching the rear camera at 2:40 and watch that pack pass. Just another group ride.

that's crazy - most of them are coasting............It truly is about a 30% difference effort wise if you are drafting.

I wonder if any of the draft crew from IMFL gets on this site and has taken a gander at this video? I realize there is only so much they can do, but at the very least it would confirm for them if they want a draft free race either the field needs to come down in size or the marshalls need to grow their force.....or both.

It's obvious the honor code among athletes doesn't exist.....I have never seen such blatant drafting in my life.

At what speeds what everyone say most of the drafting is done? 20 - 23mph or is it all across the board?

I've got one issue with that video. At the end, I was wondering why the rider in green that Holmes just passed didn't open the required distance, but then I looked in the right frame and Holmes hands weren't on the extensions anymore. He appears to have passed several folks, gotten in front of them, then just sat up. That's not a cool move at all. For the guy in green to have dropped back, he'd have to have literally hit the brakes which looks like it could have been a recipe for disaster with all that nonsense going on.

I'm not saying gbobholmes hasn't done a service to the sport here, but a little of it is like the nightly news film crew reporting on the traffic jam that's only there because the nightly news film crew is set up along the side of the road creating the gawkers jam.

Can you give us a little detail of your camera setup? What cameras you used? How you mounted them? What software you used to sync them?

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Ben Waite | Zipp Senior Design Engineer | The Power of Bicycles: Please contribute to World Bicycle Relief | Zipp | SRAM | Quarq |

He also crosses the yellow line at 1:15. Not that I care.

He didn't cause that peloton that passed him at 2:40-3:10.

Change will likely only come if the Ironman Corp. or the governing body enforces the rules or yanks the race (as we know it).

I know when I want my voice heard, I write letters.....

How many letters would stir up change??

Confirms why i'll never do IMFla or Draftwater unless some major changes are made. Pathetic.

Thank you. Epic!

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you know my name, look up my number
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Great video, and it really represents what the bike course was like. The drafting occured all day - not just on Hwy 20. I saw it on 231 and on 388 also. Surprisingly, I saw 3 or 4 different people get red carded on the 20. I also hear another racing complaining that she got carded on 2301.

At the end of the day, it all comes down to a matter of choice. You (and only you) make a decision to ride a clean race or to cheat. The concept isn't difficult to grasp. I don't believe the crap that "it was just too hard to not draft". I was extremely careful on the entire ride, and didn't draft. Perhaps my bike split wasn't as good as it could have been, but so what. I went to bed knowing that I finished the IM and didn't cheat.

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Joel | My Blog | Team Rev3 Tri | Twitter @TriMadness

For example at Clearwater or Florida if they did a TT start with groups of 15 starting 15 people WIDE every minute you get 900 people off in an hour, but more importantly you eliminate the big chunks of people when you start large groups together in the swim. That's 1800 people in 2 hours. Cap the field at that. Not hard to do with today's timing technology.

Then instead of time penalties, let's have:

• first penalty: MILE OF SHAME on a 200m loop outside T2 for everyone to see (8 laps)
• second penalty: 3 ADDITIONAL MILES OF SHAME (so now the guy is doing 32 laps till his head spins and since there is a timing matt entering and leaving, you don't get to leave until you cross the exit mat and it says you did 32 laps).

Its not just the penalty and shredding the legs with extra running. It's the public humiliation in front of friends and family.

Tetsuoni, I agree with not sacrificing yourself to be taken advantage of. But maybe we can all do something here, and start something on ST to lobby USAT, WTC and RD's. If they can do TT start in Louisville, then what's the problem elsewhere.

Dev

they already do that at some of the Europe 70.3s.

In Antwerp 70.3 this year they had run penalty loops ~450m or so over very chunky, uneven cobblestones.

1 loop per offense. they also had about 14 motos with refs for a 90km course, part of which is 2 loops. I never went more then 5 min without seeing a ref.

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Brian Stover USAT LII
Accelerate3 Coaching
Insta

I'm with you 100% Joel, it's an individual decision and you have to live with it. Why do Ironman if you cheat? There aren't more motors because the organizer is too cheap.

I knew someone would say that first the yellow line...We are talking about drafting and getting an advantage I never said I was perfect. It was to avoid all the bikes coming into that aid station they were wide(see the newer video with front and rear views in same clip).
YEs I admit it I crossed the yellow line yes. Its like the double yellow line for automobiles.. Your not supposed to pass with a double yellow line. BUT what are you going to do if say a car stops
dead in front of you or a tree is on the road. Are you going to wait until the car moves to pass or someone removes the tree.. NO your going to look see if there is any on coming traffic(this isn' a hill) and if safe make your pass.

As for the setting up after a pass.. This is why those of us who make every effort not to draft are really pissed off. We work very hard(which you don't see the folks in the pack who claim they got
caught up in do) to make the pass legallly.. I push through the packs when they slow down. Well after 10 bikes or so and actually getting some wind protection from the pack as your passing
you get to the front and they speed up to stay with you or you keep pushing. But eventually I can't stay up in front. This can happen over and over again.
FInally you just get frustrated. I see them in my mirror gaining and pretty much decide its not worth the effort to keep pushing...
First time I passed the group they all slowed down at aid station and in the crowd. I kept going following the rules passing at a fast clip well less than 20 seconds.
Each time I'd pass a couple I ended up in someone elses draft zone. Toward the end if you watch I shifted gears because I wasn't gaining on the next bike but was in the draft zone so I did
what I was supposed to do finish the pass but by then the group started picking up steam after the slow down so it was matter of time. I may have sat up but I was going roughly the same speed.
I was hopeing to get my gps track info overlayed but since my video was not continous due to a reboot earlier its going to be difficult(the bike mounted cameras ran continous)
But it would show the speeds.

I saw that too . . . what a cheater. lol

More likely they won't allow cameras next year.

Only 3...you should look at the video again. I only saw three that were not drafting. If they were 3 bike lengths apart per the rules that would have been a 10 minute video :)

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Cheers...

Rich

No, he finishes making the pass, then he is clearly going to be overtaken. Once he is overtaken, he can either stay in the bars (not safe in a pack), or he can put his hands on the hoods. He chose the latter (safer) option. I wish we could see bib numbers, so we could post names and make this thread even more fun.

Racers on the team are from VA, DC, MD, and PA. Its not so much a club as an elite am team.

Why are they going to lower capacity?

If that's the case, WTC will simply raise the costs to the 1800 person capacity to offset the lose of income by lowering the capacity.

So the nex question is this: Do people want to pay $777 to race and be potentially draft legal, or pay $500 and race with it as is. From all accounts, people are upset that races are $500 now, I'm not sure how people would feel if it went to $777. $300 bucks isnt really all that much in terms of dollars, but when you put it into context, it's basically 50% added cost to the avg. cost now.

If you really want to make a change, you have to present a case to WTC, that will create a cleanier race, all the while keeping the gravy train for WTC's pockets. They aren't going to want to implement a plan that causes them to lose money. It's a BUSINESS, and it's all about the money. It's not about allowing people to race to see what how far they can push themselvs. If that were the case, simply go out on a Sat. and do 140.6 race by yourself.


This arguement kinda reminds me of the Playoff debate in college football. Everyone says that college football needs a playoff, so that it's fair for most teams and a true champion on the field is crowned. However, they forget about the finances of the decisions. Why the heck do you think the BCS was created by only 6 conferences in the 1st place. It's all about money, and university prez's arent going to drop that system simply for a system of unkown financically. So hence, why there is no easy answer to the college football playoff system. Yes, it makes sense to have a college playoff system, but it's all about the MONEY. Show the colleges how they can make more money, and a playoff will be implemented. Until than, it's just a pipe dream.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

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LoriT sez: Change will likely only come if the Ironman Corp. or the governing body enforces the rules or yanks the race (as we know it).

I know when I want my voice heard, I write letters.....

How many letters would stir up change??

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sometimes Jim Riccitello the wtc head referee is on this board. Jim, this is a disgrace. please explain how it happens on your watch. please also explain why the rules variations for wtc events ask for a lesser time penalty for drafting? usat rules say 6 mins for first offense and 12 minutes for second offense. wtc is less. why?

as long as races fill up there won't be any change. what happens when the equity group sells it in a few years, any ideas?

For the record, I didn't say anything about the yellow line (the aid station volunteers seemed so determined to get me to take a bottle at one point on the B2B course that I had to go across the yellow line to get away from them ... and there weren't any other bikes around. I think they were bored to death and wanted the thrill of handing me a bottle). But if I were the guy in the green and you did to me what I saw (or thought I saw) on that video, I'd be a little pissed off.

Regardless, those ARE awesome videos and damning evidence, both. Very cool. Very selfless of you to do that. I'm sure you could have had a much faster race if you weren't doing that (and carrying that extra gear).

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Bob C.

The "science" on any matter can never be settled until every possible variable is taken into account.

Thanks for posting...how can this race call itself a legit m-dot race??

Yep some of the aid stations the volunteers(which did an awesome job) were a bit far into the road especially when the big packs rolled through it was scarey.

didn't slow me down much I've been practicing last couple years used them in louisville(except the helmet cam) I went out too fast(you'd think after 29 ironman races I'd learn)
first 25 miles on bike then the head wind.
What you see is what the packs do I have to wait for them to all go by anyway and not get drawn into the group(which alot of folks use as an excuse) So I moved as far to right as I could
waited for them to go if they didn't keep going I'd have to pass them and on and on it would go except this time the head wind made it tough to keep passing them.
the cameras might have had a small aero disadvantage but Heck I wasn't concerned with that.. Yes I was 17 minutes slower than last years bike but the conditions had lot to do with that
plus lack of training post louisville with all the bad weather we had in those weeks.
I'm getting a new 1080p version of the cameras next with remote control and extra battery power.

I haven't yet watched the other videos (rear view, etc.) but I was talking about blatant and intentional drafting violations - not drafting, per se. I'm not oblivious to the difference, believe me, but I maintain my opinion that someone sitting up and not pedaling *may* not be intentionally drafting. People like to beleive that it is possible to maintain the 3 bike length rule in all cases, etc. but in reality it is not. People that are in the bars, clearly making use of a draft for their own advantage are guilty. People in a pack due to many of the common complaints (too many riders, narrow roads, turns, aid stations, etc.) *may* not be guilty. Or they *may* be. Not my call...

Why the F do we need more motorbikes? Just setup teams of spotters on the course. As a draft group passes start calling out the numbers over a 2 way, a mile down the road have more spotters who then check the group again to see who is still drafting and they all get screwed. This could all be done multiple times over the bike course with volunteers and would cost practically nothing. I will be the first to volunteer next year to sit on the bike course and call out numbers.
Geez: A couple of minutes for drafting is an absolute joke in a IM. Hummm Draft the ride and risk losing a few minutes while gaining 30 minutes on the run��.. I say if you get caught no KQ and a minimum of 10 minutes, 2nd time 20 more minutes, 3rd time DQ. Who needs the penalty tents, just let them keep riding collecting infringements until they are DQ�ed then pull them off the run.

AGREED! But you need to be a true BASTARD about it and pull them off at mile 24 of the run!

That will teach the F**kers

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Cheers...

Rich

did anybody notice the UFO?

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Ride Scoozy Electric Bicycles
http://www.RideScoozy.com

It seems like you have spent a lot of energy and expense filming the cheating. I am unclear why you entered IM Florida, especially for the 10th time. It doesn't seem like you had any fun at all, and you clearly anticipated the drafting since you came prepared with a camera to film it. I am not saying that your anger is not justified or that the cheating is justified. I am just saying maybe you should find some events in which to participate that you can actually enjoy. I have a suggestion -- try Xterra. Jump on your mountain bike and avoid the peloton all together. The events are well-run, intensely competitive, physically challenging and one big party! Why waste your energy being angry at something that you can't control and that you know likely won't change?

Now, you have one great solution for the few folks who will never be happy with Triathlons anymore. They are a business. They are for the masses. 1980 is gone.
But, what fun would life be if one did not have something to complain about? :o)

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Why a minute apart? Why not 10 seconds and smaller groups?

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2015 American Zofingen Du is May 17.
R.I.P. Chris Gleason

The events are well-run, intensely competitive, physically challenging and one big party! Why waste your energy being angry at something that you can't control and that you know likely won't change?


I'd be inclined to agree with you except where Kona slots are concerned. I'd hate to think that somebody took a free ride in the jump seat for 112 and rode all the way to Kona. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I doubt that these sort of packs were there to help the top overall finishers.

Also, I didn't sense any "anger" from the OP. I thought he was just reporting.

I'm just applying a little bit of logic. I don't think it's a big stretch to say that the original poster was motivated by anger over the drafting he has seen. As I said, I don't disagree with him that it exists or that he is entitled to be frustrated or angered over it. My only point is that there are other events out there where this is not an issue, and the original poster might be pleasantly surprised at how he feels about spending his money on race entry fees to participate in those races and enjoy them. If you are making an entire event about catching cheaters on film, my personal opinion is that you have missed what I would submit is at least an important part of participating in an amateur race -- having fun!!!

Here is another view.

http://www.youtube.com/...&feature=related

Absolutely no excuse for some of those people!
I would love to run one of those cameras, anybody know what is being used?

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Owner of a few Speed Concepts since 2011.

I wonder if someday these folks will come to realize they are just cheating themselves? Is the whole concept of the IM with a 112 ITT lost of them? I would feel I didn't get the "real" experience of an IM if I did this. I really don't understand this. I did the Vineman IM this summer...less than a 1000 entrants and you couldn't really draft if you wanted to. Finishing with honesty and integrity to the sport means more than saving a few minutes but I guess I am just old fashion (or maybe just old).

Maybe you blinked, but the fact that IM FL 2010 sold out in a day at over $500 might make you want to reconsider your statement above.

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"Go yell at an M&M"

Yes, people sign up for it, but will having the race be priced at $700+ make it appeal to the masses still? Thats the question that WTC has to ask itself. Obviously right now they have it set up perfectly to make alot of money. As a business it really doesnt make much sense for WTC to more or less take a chance at changing, just so people can feel like the IM race is "legit". $500 dollars is still viable for the masses, but at what point is it not viable? That's the point I'm making. Is it 200 extra dollars, 500 extra dollars, or only when a race costs $2k to race to become an IM will people not show up. I'm just not sure WTC wants to take that chance, especially with the cash cow they have now.

Dev's proposition to cut the course down to 1800 people, will have a direct impact on Participants, not WTC. So yes, at $500 at this point it sells out in minutes. I just dont think WTC wants to take teh business chance of potentially losing profit just so they can have a "non draft" race.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Surely you're not suggesting it would cost $400,000 to fix the drafting issue?

Good stuff.

Maybe I missed this already explored in the thread, but is there a reason race marshals can't employ this technology more and then apply penalties retroactively (like the doping passport in cycling)? Just that risk alone would scare the bejeezus out of anyone drafting with intent or intentionally not correcting a clear violation. This doesn't mean the course and wave format don't have something to do with this too.

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Head down, thumbs up, give'r
@barrettdj

How many competitors are on the course now? (I'm not sure the exact number, anyone know exactly)

2800 x $500 = $1.4 million WTC gets from competitors.

2500 x $500= $1.25 million WTC if it has 2500 competitors.



Dev's Solution: Cut races down to 1800 people

1800 x $500= $900,000 WTC would make if Dev's plan of 1800 competitors at the same cost as the race is now. Thats a net lose of 1/2 million dollars if they have 2800 competitors currently now.





Edit: I'm not trying to say that drafting wont get changed, nor am I trying to say Dev's solutions wont work. I just dont have my head in the sand to think that WTC will simply change the drafting issues without making the competitors pay for it. You want to have a race that is draft free, your going to have to pay for it, basically.


So at this point, if you want 1800 people on the course, for WTC to make the same profit as it does right now (assuming htey have 2800 sign up for the race); it's going to cost a racer $777 dollars.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I hear Ironman Florida is being renamed Cheatman Florida.

It's great to have proof, can we list all the names(Dan?)

It's too late to do anything about it now, it's a virus.
Over the past few years, many people(obviously) have entered the sport feeling drafting is acceptable as long as they try not to ....... just a little. A token resistance is all that is required.
It doesn't really matter any more, with the continued cheapening of the brand, IM is slowly sinking into the gutter. I feel sorry for the first timers/ life ambitioners. IM jumped the shark long ago.

Your logic is pretty weak. Gholmes never said he was "making an entire event about catching cheaters on film" or that he did not have fun. Sometimes these events aren't very fun at all when one has to go out there and smash themselves to earn a Kona slot. Whether he was angry at the drafting is somewhat irrelevant. I appluad him for showing some initiative to highlight the problem instead of slinky away from it.

Good job.

What I couldn't see were numbers, because we need to start posting names.

Then, when these individuals are googled in the future, they will be identified as 'cheaters.'

I'm actually in that footage - I'm the bike which you see almost immediately (Black Orbea with Reynolds disc in). I'd just worked my balls off to get past that enormous pelaton. I had to go on the wrong side of the road to do so at times. Having just got past them and finally at the front (with 3 guys hanging onto me as you see in the footage) a fricken aid station turns up!

Slowing down to re-stock I had all the damn work to do again! I passed 3 pelatons as large as this one.

What I'm pissed off about - is I'm in the footage, and I'm now tarred with the brush of being in a pelaton (alhtough you can clearly see me riding away from them). And the original poster talks about how 'they' came back past him after the aid station - so am I part of the 'they'?

I didn't draft, and can hold my head high - but I also did not ask to be filmed - I don't remember this guy coming up to me pre-race and asking if he could film me being drafted by 30 riders which he was then going to post on slowtwitch and youtube.

I flew all the way from the UK for this race, and whilst the drafting was shocking to me - the draft marshals did nothing and simply turned a blind eye. However - if I'd done the race 10 years in a row I would assume to know what to expect.

Yes. Look at my figures. WTC is a business. They arent goign to simply lower the participant list, and keep the same price. They may have to eventually, if the IM balloon finally pops. But at this point, WTC can chug along with making a good amount of money. They know what they have. WTC doenst know what it has, if they have to drop the particiaptn list, and in the process raising the price by 50%, to keep the same profit. At this point, the potential lost profit is too great for WTC to attempt to try and do anything to change the draftfest as it is now. Look at the race now, people acknowledge what it is, and it still sells out in 1 day. They have a goood thing right now, and they see no need to change it, because what is the alternative? Potential loss of profit? Basically WTC would be taking a chance, and as I see it now, it wouldnt make much sense to take a chance, when right now, their race is selling out each and every year.

So it basically comes down to this: How much are people willing to pay to race in a non draft race. Are you willing to pay $750+ to race IM Fl knowing you wont be in a draftfest? If so, than round up a petition of 1800, with everyone's CC numbers, and go to WTC. If not, than it's going to be hard to get WTC to change the format.


It's easy to come up with "solutions", but when you really delv into the solutions, there are consequences, that people seem to forget or dont mention. So when a solution is brought up, just make sure it's looked at from 360 degrees, so that the best and most feasible solution can be implemented.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Your understanding of the rules of hockey is incorrect.

If my stick trips someone, intentional or not, it's a tripping call. Period. You are responsible for your own actions.

Same goes for drafting. Period.

What races do you marshall, I don't want to race there. You obviously don't give racers a level playing field.

If gholmes has any more videos to post, he should consider using that cheesy "Bad boys Bad boys ... whatcha gonna do ..." music from that Fox show.

I have a buddy who got busted for drafting at IMFL and spent 4 minutes in the penalty box at T2. I was wondering, is there any way this could actually be of benefit? Could someone run the marathon more than 4 minutes faster because they got a nice 4-minute rest forced on them? I'm not a runner. Don't know.

I just did a little fast math and, if drafting helped you average only 1/2 mph faster over the 112 ... say from 22.5 mph to 23.0 mph ... that would be over 6 minutes. Serve a 4 minute penalty and get a fresher start on your run? Doesn't sound like a bad deal to me.

Thats the whole point, and exactly why people draft. The benefit of drafting is greater than the penalty.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

"that is unbelievable...I bet there won't be drafting next year."

How old are you? Four?

Stop fixating on the "1800" people solution, that's just one idea. Wave or time trial starts would not be very expensive to implement (at all), and would spread out the pack of potential drafters a great deal. Here is IMFL today: A flat course, ~2500 competitors, a mass start, ineffective enforcement, incentives to cheat (Kona slots, AG wins, PB's), and a history/mindset that drafting is acceptable. Of all of these factors, the easiest one to change is the mass start (Person with the brain of pull buoy could figure that out...). Then, work on the other factors (threaten to pull Kona slots, incorporate video enforcement, reduce the number of participants, etc.). Will anything be done? Time will tell....

Awesome video.

I have a question. I've never done an on-road tri so please be patient with me.

Do you really think the persons in that video believed they were drafting/cheating or do you think they believed they were victims of a crowded course? I'm watching this video and playing through my mind how I would remove myself from illegal positions. It looks like a lose-lose situation for all. By looking at the math you can legally fit ~160 bikes per mile. Let's assume there are 300/mile in that video. Once you're engulfed, I don't see how it is possible to stay legal without giving up your race pace.

I like the penalty lap idea - much better than letting folks rest/stretch/hydrate in a shaded tent. Now I just need to figure out how to not get carded.

The only change to come next year is the Athlete's Guide will be updated to add no video recording devices allowed. There - problem solved: no video, didn't happen.

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Head down, thumbs up, give'r
@barrettdj

Fair enough. So lets throw out the "1800" participants, lets throw out the extra enforcement, lets throw out the extra "quiet" scooters.



It sounds like best viable option is the wave start. What is the feel for why WTC seems to be against wave starts? Is it just basically the "12 midnight" 17 hr time cutoff?

Are any IM's start with wave starts? I think IM Lville is the only TT start, correct?

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Wow.... Thanks for the visual.

I registered for next year and immediately regret it. I'd rather have a slow race relative to the participants of the IMFl Group Ride but it looks like 3-4-5 abreast that extends pretty far. does not cheating mean you end up being the guy pulling that pack?

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George Schmitz

not in any games I reffed. Now if you were to say that if your stick hits anyone in the helmet...ever. Then that is an automatic high stick penalty (in the minor leagues with the small tykes). But your interpretation of that rule wouldn't be accurate up here. Otherwise, you would have folks skating over to someone, jumping on their stick and falling down.

No, incorrect, jumping on an opponent's stick would not result in the opponent getting a tripping call, you would get an unsportsmanlike conduct call. They have written the rules both ways.

If the puck is in an opponent's feet, and I go after it with my stick causing him to fall, it's tripping. Those are the rules in the U.S. In Canada, your rules are enforced much more to the spirit of the game BUT I've seen that same call made dozens of times.

I have the same exact question - are they victims of an over-crowded course and how do you keep your pace and stay away from it? The hard part, if you are going faster, is getting through the group w/o crossing the double yellow line. That's the part that concerns me. Obviously, it can be done, but it would not be fun. I've run into this among slower riders several times when my wave (35-39) starts later and usually it's only 3-4 people, which isn't bad. In this video, there's a lot more to deal with. So not only are people drafting, they are also making it more difficult for others on the course.

Yes, they are victims of an over-crowded course, because we are all victims. No one is ever responsible for what they do, someone else is always to blame. :)

There have been quite a few Ironman World Champions crowned after serving drafting penalties. Off the top of my head-Paula-Newby Fraser, Natascha Badmann, Nina Craft (later DQ'd for doping), Luc Van Lierde, and Tim DeBoom.

completely close the road to all but IM traffic. that way they can use the entire road.

I would like to see how that would fly in the Peoples Republic of Madison, a lot of villages on the outskirts of town hate the race already.

Option, pay the draft marshals by the infraction. Give them a camera so they haveto prove it if questioned and if it is an actual infraction they get credit and paid. Stiffen the penalties for the athletes, 10 minutes on the first, DQ on the second. I know crazy talk!

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Owner of a few Speed Concepts since 2011.

completely close the road to all but IM traffic. that way they can use the entire road.

How much would that cost?


Option, pay the draft marshals by the infraction. Give them a camera so they haveto prove it if questioned and if it is an actual infraction they get credit and paid.

Are marshals different than offiicals? If not, my only concern with this idea is that Officials (the ones that are getting paid), should get paid simply for being there. They should get a base pay in addition to this pay per infraction. You can argue whether or not they do enough now, but I'm guessing if you really want to get people to do an effective job, you have to pay them besides actually what they report during the race. (there are some officials who are in probation periods and may not be paid, but for the officials who do tri's and get paid, they deserve a base salary).

Stiffen the penalties for the athletes, 10 minutes on the first, DQ on the second.

I love that idea, not sure why it's not a stiffer penalty.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

I can tell by your run time you didn't draft. bike time = run time. When you post on a forum you open yourself up. However, you can hold your head high as you were leading the peloton. However, I can not say that for the guys behind you.

As for being posted on the internet and youtube, that's just a reflection on society and one of the negatives of the internet. Nothing seems private anymore and people are quick to judge based on a 2:00 minute video. Some were cheating, some were leading, some were trying to get out of the pack and some were trying to ride legally behind the pack. Too many people on a flat course and nobody is willing to give or not much of a deterent to give once the peloton forms.

Hope you had a good time and enjoyed Florida.

Easy solution. 2 waves.
wave 1), the "event" wave starts at 6:30, white caps, white numbers.
wave 2), the "podium" wave starts at 9:00, yellow caps, yellow numbers.

Same cost, same rules, same midnight cutoff, only kona slots and prizes for wave 2.
Officials focus 80% of their effort on wave 2.
I'm guessing wave 1 is a lot bigger than wave 2. If it isn't the first year, push the wave 2 start out an extra 1/2 hour/year till it is.

You are trolling on the wrong site if you are looking for dates....from all I have seen from you I am sure that is your desired age

Yes, you're responsible for your own actions; no, it's not a tripping call, period. It's a judgement call by the official, especially when both players are going for the puck at the same time. A 'trip' that happens accidentally should not get a penalty, just like drafting that happens WITHOUT INTENT shouldn't incur a penalty. As a matter of fact, we should call it something else... maybe "I got WTCed in Florida when I was sucked up in a pack..." ;) I, for one, WOULD do IMFL again; it's fast, it's fun, and I'm only in it for myself...

bry-

Letters people....letters. Hard copy-snail mailed.....if you paid for this race and didn't like what you saw & want to be heard:

Florida Office:
Ironman World Headquarters
World Triathlon Corporation
2701 North Rocky Point Drive
Suite 1250
Tampa, FL 33607
(813) 868-5940 Phone
(813) 868-5930 Fax

Yes, they are victims of an over-crowded course, because we are all victims. No one is ever responsible for what they do, someone else is always to blame. :)

Your smiley face is duly noted. I'm all for accountability. However, I do feel sorry for the slower swimmer/faster cyclist who might have happened upon one of the filmed groups and might have been trying desperately to get through or past the group. I think it's fair to ask if there aren't more blocking violations in evidence on those videos than there are drafting violations. I've yet to attend a race where I didn't see WAY more blocking than drafting (though I've never attended an IM-branded event). You're supposed to make your pass and then get the f__k out of the way!

sometimes Jim Riccitello the wtc head referee is on this board. Jim, this is a disgrace. please explain how it happens on your watch. please also explain why the rules variations for wtc events ask for a lesser time penalty for drafting? usat rules say 6 mins for first offense and 12 minutes for second offense. wtc is less. why?

as long as races fill up there won't be any change. what happens when the equity group sells it in a few years, any ideas?

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First of all - excellent video coverage from the OP ... and welcome to my world.

A couple comments - and not all of them directed at your post:

• I am not an event director - just a person hired to watch for rule violations.
• My job is not to prevent drafting, but call it when I see it.
• There were 14 draft marshals on the course.
  
• 190 people visited the 3 penalty tents.
• We had a positive affect on many of the groups referenced in the video - I wish someone would have documented that.
• We can't be everywhere.
• There were PLENTY of athletes who raced fairly in IMFL - a majority.
• We did not catch everyone.
  
• The time penalties for drafting were in place before I was conned into this job.
  
• I will continue to explore ways to discourage drafting and ways to better enforce various rule violations.
• The draft marshals did a good job. The disgrace lies with those who choose to break the rules.

Riccitello

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Jimmy
http://www.Riccitello.com

I don't think a solution that effects the bottom line will be considered. If drafting is penalized to the letter of the rule, there would be lots of irate customers.

Styrrell

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Styrrell

I do group century rides in the summer. We can avg 25 mph for the 100 miles on flat to rolling courses. If I draft the entire time- my HR will be in the 120s on these courses (which are harder/hillier than the IM FL course). If I ride the same intensity- non-drafting- my speed might be around 22 mph. So- a 3 mph bump is 37 minutes- and you may or may not even get a penalty. Factor in that you would be relatively fresh versus very fatigued- and the answer is pretty clear and I'm not surprised to see the drafting. The racers obviously don't have the ethics or they have the attitude- every one else is doing it- so it makes it okay, or they want to get into Kona, or ???

Sorry, my solution would be to reduce the field to 1800 and jack up entry fees by the same proportion. Let's face it, people will may 30-50% more if it means a more fair race.

Thanks for posting Jim. One suggestion, I'd love to see the penalties stay as is, but make it so that you can't get a Kona spot if you get a drafting penalty. I suspect that Kona slots are big part of the problem, people get sucked into drafting because for many if you don't draft, you don't qualify.

And while I'm at it I wonder if anyone will post a lisdt of Kona Qualifier who got drafting penalties, I suspect more than a few.

Styrrell

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Styrrell

I am with Dev on this. Time penalties are no penalties. Make a person run a lap and really put the hurt on them before they go out and run the marathon. THAT is a penalty.

Dev, I respect the hell out of your views, cus you have alot of knowledge and experience, and my views werent ever to say they couldnt work. Just more or less show both sides of the arguement.


My only concern with that is this: Will WTC take a chance on changing the format like that? Would they take the chance that they may or may not sell out. What happens if they only sell 85% of capacity? Thats a lose of revenue, and that's the concern I see it. I dont see how a business will take a chance, especially when they have the gravy train already established. Now if WTC was faltering each year with selling out, I could see WTC wanting to make a change. But they are selling out in a matter of hours, and I'm not sure they go away from that.

Let's face it, it is all a business. So the only gurantee way to get that idea passed is to go to WTC with 1800 people's checks to show guranteed money to WTC. But because of the "chance" that you may not be able to get 1800 people's money, I just dont see WTC going for something like that.

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@brooksdoughtie
USAT-L2,Y&J; USAC-L2
http://www.aomultisport.com

Jimmy, while we understand you were conned into the job, the way it is perceived, is that you are the CEO of rule enforcement. Rightly or wrongly the situation at hand at races, ends up being connected to you, even though you have no say in the rules and at times have limited enforcement resources. Its

We the athletes who want a clean race, working with the likes of you can make a difference. See my solution above for laps of shame....1 mile for first offence out of T2 before you can start the run, second offence 3 miles. For most they are looking at 8-40 minutes right out of the gate PLUS shredding their legs BEFORE starting the run.

The current problem is that the punishment is not a sufficient deterrent.

And for those who don't drop back when passed and immediately accelerate to try and repass and try to ride away from peletons, you are only making the problem worse. The moment you jack it up to 350W, the guy following you can keep up doing 20% or more less. You pull for 30 seconds and notice you can't drop anyone and the peleton just had a 350W pull with everyone sitting in at 250, 220, 170, 150W. Next the honest guy at the back thinks he can blow by the peleton and does a pull at 350W....guess what, the rest of the peleton can keep up. Suddenly the front of the peleton is moving at 350+W while the back is only using 150W. You get the picture. The front of the peleton is moving at an obsenely fast pace as each successive guy does an unsuccessful pull. Each person that tries to surge and drop the peleton is making the problem worse.

If a stronger rider pulls up to you, don't jack up your pace to pass him. You are required to drop back 5 lengths and you'll see that if I guy is riding 250W and you're only doing 220, no way you are passing this guy. You might do some cat and mouse of a few miles and blow your race, but let the stronger guy go. If you don't let the stronger guy go, you now have the start of the formation of a peleton.

If everyone would just drop back 5 lengths when passed, then the guy in the front is doing his real IM or half IM race pace, the the line up of guys riding equally spaced 5 lengths back each are doing their race effort.

For a sample, see the videos of the Kona pro race. I nice legally spaced line up of guys going at a steady pace.

gholmes, I didnt read every reply sorry but it seems to me from what the riders are doing you are coming up on an aid station. People are slowing and taking out bottles some are staying at full speed which makes it bunch. Do you have video of a big pace group riding full out and not just coasting and bunched before an aid station.

(I didnt do the race, it just seems like a skewed piece of video if this is all you are showing)

It seems that over the years the number of athletes allowed on a given course goes up--whether the course can handle it or not. I recall hearing at the start of IMC one year the announcer boasting about it being the largest mass swim start in all of ironman history. (greaat)

This is huge money, I get that. But why do they need to keep increasing the profit by increasing the entry fee and/or increasing the participants? I see this largely as a management issue--or we would be talking about other IM courses being just as bad. I don't see that IMFL racers are any different than other IM racers.... it just happens to be the course layout & terrain, the number of racers, management factors, and a few bad apples (and some that just happened to be in the wrong spot).

I think they could create change and alleviate the problem if they wanted to.

My take is that if they jack up Clearwater to $500 vs $300 it still sells out...same for Ironman Florida. Then they can implement a plan with fewer participants and less drafting. When you are spending $600 for hotels, the same on airfare, probably 4x that in equipment, then there is money spent on nutrition and perhaps coaching, well, when you add it all up $200-$300 increase in fee will not kill anyone.

It's like golfing a round at pebble beach for $450 and paying $400 for the hotel and $200 on breakfast and dinner. You don't do it every weekend, you likely don't even do it once a year. When you're putting out that much a few hundred is in the noise.

I realize that this sucks if you are tight for finances, but the sport is already pretty expensive, but in my view cheaper than downhill skiing or golf and if you look at the demographic in the 30-54 age bracket that makes up the bulk of triathlon, it is pretty well the same thing as downhill skiing. Money in the end is not an issue. Guys will open the wallet for the sport and for the lifestyle.

That being said, I can BET YOU that the local communities in Panama City or Clearwater want MORE athletes not less....cause it means more hotel nites and meals in restaurants.

Dev

One thing that Jimmy did not mention is that he is totally dependent on volunteer marshals and motorcycle drivers for those marshals to ride on. Often there are more marshals than their are motos available. But sometimes marshals are in short supply as well. Jimmy said he had 14 at IMFL, but I know that he needs more than that. For example there were 25 marshals on motos at IMH. At a race like IMFL, my best guess is that you would need that many or more. However, perhaps not enough motos showed up or that's all the marshals that were available.

Generally speaking on a 112 mile bike course with a race field spread out over 40+ miles, the more marshals the better the coverage is going to be and the cleaner the race is going to be. Just being around riders is often enough of a deterrent to get people to follow the rules.

So here's an idea: If you are really this upset about the drafting - volunteer to be a marshal and if you know someone in a race community where there is a 70.3 or IM race, that has a motorcycle, make them volunteer to drive. This is one thing were, more is more!! :)

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Steve Fleck @stevefleck | Blog

If the bike route took a left on Hwy 20, then a right on Hwy 81, the terrain would help reduce drafting.

Jim, great job at trying to do the impossible.

But, these minority comments on ST are a joke. This is a business. With 1 day sell outs, in this economy, WTC is doing a killer job!! I would NOT change a thing!

I would always get these type of minority comments when I was the RD of the LOP race. On some they were good inputs and I tried to change stuff. But, if I am the RD of the IMFL
race, I see nothing to change since 99% of the folks could care less about this ego stuff a few bitch about. I believe a number of the rules are 20 years out of date. They may have
been great when there were few racers, and the ego's were there. Now, the sport is totally different, which I love. Bottom line, I have NO respect for a person who signs up for a race
KNOWING what is going to happen, and then bitches about it. I will never consider Clearwater since why would I spend all that time and money to be in a draft fest. Now clearly many could care less and that is great.

I still think WTC should start with a clean piece of paper, and see what rules make sense NOW to use. I still believe just getting rid of the drafting rules like the ITU does makes the most sense since it is, and will continue to happen forever. Does this mean we might need new rules for aero bars, etc, maybe.

Again, thanks for doing a no win job!!!

Dave

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me like the race organizers are opening themselves up to a big lawsuit.

Does this video indicate negligence? I don't know, but if somebody goes down at the front of one of those big packs and takes a few dozen people with him, I'm sure some would consider this negligence and be looking for a lawyer. After all, the people in that pack are the ones looking for a free ride.

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U SHOULD be DQ'd for crossing the center line, so go cry some where else.

One thing you definitely deserve a "pat on the back for" is moving over to the right following your pass. There was that big shoulder on this road that appeared to be under-utilized by the people riding near you and passing you.

Your post also points out that there is an aid station coming up within moments of the time this video covers. This might explain at least some (though not all) of the congestion and sitting up that we see in the video.

That rocks Gary, although I did see worse packs

Thank you for catching the 190 people. That sounds like an unprecedented number of violations. Perhaps this will act as a deterrent for next year.

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you know my name, look up my number
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Thank you for catching the 190 people. That sounds like an unprecedented number of violations. Perhaps this will act as a deterrent for next year.

If you look back at one of my earlier posts where I did a little math on the time savings potential of drafting versus the cost of getting a penalty, and if you read some of the replies it generated, it would be clear that, even if you get caught drafting, there's almost no downside. You're still going to come out way ahead. So at present, the threat of getting caught and getting a penalty is not a meaningful deterrent.

Like someone said for each offense add 5k on the run third offense DQ. That will stop it a bit.

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Those videos are PRICELESS!!! Thanks for sharing and getting everyone fired up! I think Louisville is very similar, at least that first 20 in through the park....after that, it clears out. No excuse for these guys.

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"Damn homie, in highskew you was tha man, homie..what the F*** hapened to you?"

But it's the baptism of being a degenerate--gambling even when there's no clear sign of a winning side.

I do group century rides in the summer. We can avg 25 mph for the 100 miles on flat to rolling courses. If I draft the entire time- my HR will be in the 120s on these courses (which are harder/hillier than the IM FL course). If I ride the same intensity- non-drafting- my speed might be around 22 mph. So- a 3 mph bump is 37 minutes- and you may or may not even get a penalty. Factor in that you would be relatively fresh versus very fatigued- and the answer is pretty clear and I'm not surprised to see the drafting.

Mark,

I do the same kinds of rides and I know the potential time savings of drafting is well beyond the .5 mph I used in my calculation. The reason I used it, is that I assumed even the cheats don't draft in those packs all the time at events like IMFL. Maybe I'm wrong about that. I assume you ride along, a pack comes along, you grab it for a while. Everyone starts to feel a little guilty. Folks who are bottling things up start to move over. Things spread out and slow down again. And so on. I guess I have to ask. Are these draft packs like one huge peloton that hangs together from start to finish with people sharing pulls at the front and with rotating pacelines and all? Are people working for the benefit of the group or are they just taking advantage of it until they can get clear of it? I know it's a violation in either case, but if they're working together for mutual benefit, then that's pretty darned outrageous.

Call me naive.

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Bob C.

The "science" on any matter can never be settled until every possible variable is taken into account.

I'd use "Loser" by Beck as a soundtrack.

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This sounds like the perfect WTC public announcement WTC should put out when people complain about their event (all the while WTC is laughing to the bank at how each event continues to sell out).


You should go into public relations, and get out of the headache that is officiating! :)

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