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AG drug testing: so, what changes?

 

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Slowman

Sep 15, 09 7:43

Post #1 of 105 (3798 views)
AG drug testing: so, what changes? Quote | Reply

so far, our poll indicates strong support for AG drug testing for those who qualify for Kona and clearwater. as of this writing, we're oscillating between 80% and 85% support.

but, only 35% to 40% believe it's good-to-go as is. i'm intrigued that half of you like the program but only if changes occur. what changes? that the program is not strong enough? or that it needs a bit of modulating?

to recap, what we have is as follows, as far as i know:

=> qualifiers for kona and clearwater will be asked to sign a waiver, allowing for drug testing both in and out of competition, the "in-competition" being at each WC race; the OOC occurring only if the contestant is notified he/she is in the OOC pool. at that point, the athlete can opt out of the pool, but loses the WC slot. this is an easier rule than pros live with, as AGers can still race everywhere else, and as of this writing no other punishment is contemplated by IM or any other authority. so, that same athlete can still enter other IM races, just that the slot is given up for worlds.

=> the "panel" (list of banned substances) is the same as for the pros, so, if the AGer tests positive for either banned recreational or banned performance enhancing drugs, a penalty is levied. it's my understanding that the penalty would be the same as for the pros, a 2yr ban from all competition for a first offense, or whatever the appropriate ban is.

=> AGers can apply for a therapeutic use exemption (TUE), either from USADA or from a TUE adjudicating panel that WTC sets up itself. so, if you're taking a banned substance but feel you should be able to do so and still retain the right to race, you submit your TUE request to one of these agencies.

i have the following questions, and will at some point ask them and perhaps others of WTC:

1. if you're an AGer and you test positive in or out of competition, will your positive test and ban be made public?

2. if you submit your TUE request and it is denied, will it affect your right to race in any of WTC's other races or, if you submit your TUE to USADA and it's denied, will it affect your right to race in all sanctioned races? or, does a TUE denial only affect your ability to compete in the WC, but it does not affect your right to compete in any other race?

3. how long is an OOC pool stint for an AGer? 3 months? 6 months? a year? indefinite?

4. if an AGer tests positive, does he still retain the same rights to appeal? to whom does he appeal? who is the prosecuting authority in such appeals, WTC or a NADO? and is CAS the court of last resort for the athlete, and if so has CAS agreed to adjudicate these AG cases?

5. is WTC committed, and are the other partner orgs (e.g., ANADO) in agreement, that the only penalty for opting out of OOC testing is the loss of the WC slot? or is this a decision that's not yet firm?

6. if the athlete opts out of the OOC pool, will this fact become public?

what say the roughly half of you who want to tweak the program? how do you want it tweaked? how do you wish WTC will answer my questions above? what are your questions?

Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

(This post was edited by Slowman on Sep 15, 09 7:46)


mcdoublee

Sep 15, 09 8:08

Post #2 of 105 (3728 views)
Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I think recreational drugs (non-performance enhancing) should be excluded from testing/sanctions especially if the results are to be made public.


Uncle Phil

Sep 15, 09 8:17

Post #3 of 105 (3698 views)
Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Anyone have a copy of the waiver that the Kona qualifiers at IM-MOO had to sign? They did have a handout as well, but it was basically a list of resources for the athletes - links to the WADA code, WTC rules, and "educational resources".


logella

Sep 15, 09 8:17

Post #4 of 105 (3696 views)
Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I could be completely wrong but the way I understand the program to work is that the only "in-competition" testing will be done at Kona and Clearwater. To me this creates a huge loophole for those that are doping to get away with it. Take this as an example:

1. Racer A is determined to do whatever it takes to get Kona slot.
2. Racer A takes whatever banned substances they think will improve their chances.
3. Racer A races at Im Wisconsin doped up.
4. Racer A gets a Kona slot.
5. Racer A is not subject to "in-competition" testing until nearly 13 months later at Kona.
6. Only a slim chance that Racer A will face "out-of-competition" testing in the immediate aftermath of Wisconsin.
7. Racer A shows up at Kona clean.

In order to be truly a deterant Kona and Clearwater qualifiers showed be subject to testing in the immediate aftermath of qualifing for the race.
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"Unless you have a ... GF who might put out that night and that night only ... skip it and race." - AndyPants 3-15-2007


clyde_s_dale

Sep 15, 09 8:19

Post #5 of 105 (3686 views)
Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Also will TUE's be made public? What about the paper application process? or is it private? what about if it is declined?

I have no interest in a google search of me showing what perscription drugs i take...(not to mention my other objections in the other thread)

Clyde
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-Cartels: Serotta, Zipp 2001, Guru, eh?
-"It was kinda long and then i got really tired"


Slowman

Sep 15, 09 8:23

Post #6 of 105 (3673 views)
Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [clyde_s_dale] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

"Also will TUE's be made public?"

TUEs should never become public, afaik. plenty of TUEs on file (for pros) but we don't know who/what they are. my question, like yours, is what happens if, say, you're taking testosterone under a doctor's orders, but your TUE is denied. does this affect your ability to race in any races other than kona/clearwater?


Dan Empfield
aka Slowman


clyde_s_dale

Sep 15, 09 8:32

Post #7 of 105 (3643 views)
Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Yes generates an interesting question:
-if you apply for a TUE but get denied, and they then ban you from competition, that would very much suck, especially since its not clear if you would be tested anyway...
-do you then get the chance to declare you have stopped taking that drug if denied a TUE? get to apply for another TUE with more documentation?
-what grounds do they use for declining TUEs?
-will they hear TUE applications from anyone? What is the order required for getting a TUE vs getting a kona slot? What if you arent sure you will get a kona slot? i guess you still get a TUE then?

Clyde
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
-Cartels: Serotta, Zipp 2001, Guru, eh?
-"It was kinda long and then i got really tired"


Record10Carbon

Sep 15, 09 8:33

Post #8 of 105 (3641 views)
Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

It would all be "for not" if the participant opts for the selection to NOT allow their medical information to be known. I have a right for instance in Illinois to not take a pre-employment drug screen. I would need to consent to the medical testing company the right for the potential employer to be granted access to the information in the given drug screen. If I opt to not take the test, or to not give access to the results to the employer - they can just not hire me. Where this gets tricky is WTC lets anyone use Active.com to enter a race and play for slots in Kona. Part of the entry if the question about medical information (I always have chosen the "no" option)...so, if someone clicks the "no" option and then has a test with out a new consent - WTC even if they paid for it would have no right to the results. Will WTC just say to us all PRIOR to entry that we must grant them access to the results of a test, and if not we either dont get to race or can not race for Kona slots? Or, if we do "win" a slot and are then chosen (at random?) to get a test and we decline the slot goes on to the next person (who may or may not get a random test?).

The mess here is going to be in the verbage and where this happens. They really need it to be part of the entry process at the qualifying event, and have consent prior to taking payment for entry into an event (or be willing to do a 100% refund and decline entry into said event, if after the fact).
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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?


rhys

Sep 15, 09 8:43

Post #9 of 105 (3607 views)
Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

hey dan,

seems to me the biggest discontent is the out of competition testing piece and TUEs. Personally I just don't see AG out of competition ever happening BUT if it is not written that way then every right for people to be asking questions.

to simplify they may want to simply state "elite AG will have drug testing at Kona and Clearwater as well as qualification events" and leave it at that. Or, state that AG athletes will not be held to the 'wherabouts program' and thereby by default (I assume because they can't find you) not available to out of competition testing.

From there the elite AG is in the same boat as the pros in terms of TUEs but I suspect for Canadians privacy laws capture the publication of any of that information. Last I realize it is very easy for me to minimize the out of competition stuff because I live in Canada where drug testing for work just does not happen so a positive test for say a recreational drug like pot wouldn't get anyone fired as it would in some US States.

The whole thing is a cluster ^&*%, but I will get in line and pee/bleed whenever asked so long as Sumatra coffee and wine don't get me busted-:)


klehner

Sep 15, 09 8:44

Post #10 of 105 (3602 views)
Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
"Also will TUE's be made public?"

TUEs should never become public, afaik. plenty of TUEs on file (for pros) but we don't know who/what they are. my question, like yours, is what happens if, say, you're taking testosterone under a doctor's orders, but your TUE is denied. does this affect your ability to race in any races other than kona/clearwater?

You should be banned from any placing at any sanctioned races. If you don't deserve a TUE (as determined by the powers-that-be), you by definition are not permitted to compete for awards. Show up and race? Fine. Displace someone from awards (cash, qualifying slots, cheezy plaques, or whatever)? No. Life isn't fair to those whose testosterone levels are low. Triathlon placings aren't a right.

Question re AGers: isn't the pool of OOC participants exactly the same as those qualified for Kona/Clearwater? If it isn't, then it isn't fair. It wasn't clear from your OP.

The scenario which I posited to you and which you didn't address (dope to the gills prior to qualifying, then remain clean up to Kona/Clearwater, then repeat the process) effectively says "we don't care what you do to qualify." If you want to qualify for Kona/Clearwater 20xx, then you should sign a waiver indicating that you are willing to be in the OOC pool one year prior to the race at which you wish to qualify. Can't plan that far ahead? We can't tell if your planning is poor or your desire to dope is great, so you can't qualify.
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Of course, with your ears stuffed with outrage cotton balls, all you heard was, rahrahra, govt comes to get your guns, rhahrahrah, stamp out your FREEEEEDOM! - slowguy


klehner

Sep 15, 09 8:47

Post #11 of 105 (3590 views)
Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [clyde_s_dale] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Yes generates an interesting question:
-if you apply for a TUE but get denied, and they then ban you from competition, that would very much suck, especially since its not clear if you would be tested anyway...

It would suck because the powers-that-be have determined that your use of medication gives you an unfair advantage (the basis of the denial of a TUE) that wouldn't likely have been detected had you not applied for a TUE?

Are you serious?
----------------------------------
Of course, with your ears stuffed with outrage cotton balls, all you heard was, rahrahra, govt comes to get your guns, rhahrahrah, stamp out your FREEEEEDOM! - slowguy


Record10Carbon

Sep 15, 09 8:48

Post #12 of 105 (3584 views)
Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [rhys] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

But....will they ban "rear view mirrors" for elite AG ;-)

That is yet another good point...IM is an international game - some things that are not legal here (in the US) are in other countries...so, who's laws for what do we use? Are they going to have a Pharmacist put down EVERY single substance that is not allowed? Remember Palmer at a few events - high as a kite but within the rules.
----------------------------------------------------------

What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?


sedi

Sep 15, 09 8:59

Post #13 of 105 (3545 views)
Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Why shouldn't the AG run under the same rules as the PRO, I don't get it.
As I see it, setting up a plan just to shut up some of the voices around the lack of drug testing for AG is worst than having no drug testing.
_______________________________
The "Pocket Hercules" - jgrat

Technique sets the upper limit to where your fitness will take you...


msuguy512

Sep 15, 09 9:01

Post #14 of 105 (3534 views)
Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Med Tent Man] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm sure there will be people on ST to analyze peoples finish times to determine who has cheated with a statistical analysis


SkaterBoi

Sep 15, 09 9:08

Post #15 of 105 (3508 views)
Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Two issues seem important to me.

It would be nice to know how they plan to implement the OOC testing during work hours. As it stands now it appears they want the right to show up at your work place and demand a drug test.

Second, it would be nice to know who will have access to any data you put into their tracking system about your whereabouts. What privacy, if any, gaurantees are there in place regarding this data. Will WTC have access to this data?


115InTheShade

Sep 15, 09 9:11

Post #16 of 105 (3499 views)
Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Record10Carbon] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
But....will they ban "rear view mirrors" for elite AG ;-)

Phillipine 70.3 rules stated "no rear view mirrors"! : )

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devashish_paul

Sep 15, 09 9:48

Post #17 of 105 (3443 views)
Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Actually let's just start with IN COMPETITION TESTING at all qualifier events and a short period therafter. No point testing at Kona or Clearwater. That is bullshit and too late. The main competition is for the slots, not for Kona podium (at least for 90% of qualifiers)...if they dope, it is for the prep for and the actual day of the qual race.

All qualifiers at these events then agree that within 2 weeks of qualification they MAY be tested. They click "accept" before they get their Kona CW slot, and immediately are asked to provide where they will be over the next 2 weeks. All you have to do is provide where you will be. 2 weeks is a reasonable window to provide your "whereabouts". If you cannot be where you say you will be and if the testers show up in the next 2 weeks, with 24 hours notice, then you lose your slot. That's all we need to get a reasonable program off the ground.

I think this will be a good starting point. I want to know that on race day, the guys that got the slots were clean. If they were doped to the gills, there is a nice chance in the next 2 weeks, they'll test positive IF tested. If a guy dopes to the gills in his build up for Kona or even at Kona, most of us don't care. By then it is too late anyway.

Dev

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JoeO

Sep 15, 09 10:01

Post #18 of 105 (3404 views)
Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

Recreational drugs should have no place in this.

That is none of anyone's business but Johnny Law (and arguably, not even his)


Mark Lemmon

Sep 15, 09 10:06

Post #19 of 105 (3390 views)
Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
Actually let's just start with IN COMPETITION TESTING at all qualifier events and a short period therafter. No point testing at Kona or Clearwater. That is bullshit and too late. The main competition is for the slots, not for Kona podium (at least for 90% of qualifiers)...if they dope, it is for the prep for and the actual day of the qual race.

Dev
Agree with Dev and that WTC shouldn't be concerned with recreational drugs that aren't performance enhancing.


JoeO

Sep 15, 09 10:06

Post #20 of 105 (3390 views)
Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Slowman] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I have to admit, I think drug testing for AG-ers is kinda silly anyway. So someone taking drugs cheated you out of being able to brag to people that you qualified for Kona? Sad? Yes. Annoying? Frustrating? Probably. But I think its ridiculous that people feel that warrants a drug-testing program.


Mark Lemmon

Sep 15, 09 10:11

Post #21 of 105 (3369 views)
Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

AGers spend a lot of $$ trying to qualify for Kona. I would be willing to spend a little extra to catch the drug cheats.

Whether it is silly that AGers spend a lot of $$ to try to qualify for Kona, I might not argue with you, but people spend a lot of $$ on a lot of silly things in this world. :)


klehner

Sep 15, 09 10:17

Post #22 of 105 (3351 views)
Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [devashish_paul] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
I think this will be a good starting point. I want to know that on race day, the guys that got the slots were clean. If they were doped to the gills, there is a nice chance in the next 2 weeks, they'll test positive IF tested. If a guy dopes to the gills in his build up for Kona or even at Kona, most of us don't care. By then it is too late anyway.

It's not a good starting point: all it will tell you is that on race day, and maybe for two weeks afterwards (who would be doping *after* the qualifying race?), there were no detectable drugs in the guy who qualified and who was tested.

I disagree with your contention that nobody (of those who care at all about AG doping) cares how doped people were in training. It's the training that sets up the race.
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Of course, with your ears stuffed with outrage cotton balls, all you heard was, rahrahra, govt comes to get your guns, rhahrahrah, stamp out your FREEEEEDOM! - slowguy


furiousferret

Sep 15, 09 10:17

Post #23 of 105 (3347 views)
Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

In Reply To:
I have to admit, I think drug testing for AG-ers is kinda silly anyway. So someone taking drugs cheated you out of being able to brag to people that you qualified for Kona? Sad? Yes. Annoying? Frustrating? Probably. But I think its ridiculous that people feel that warrants a drug-testing program.
The problem is some endurance PED's can kill you, as we've seen with the cycling in the 90's. I wouldn't put it past a guy willing to spend a grand for .1 less of a gram on thier bike to take a stack during the race that is potentially dangerous. I'm usually a big proponent of PED's (however that's another tirade) but the ones used by endurance athletes are just way too dangerous.


JoeO

Sep 15, 09 10:18

Post #24 of 105 (3346 views)
Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [Mark Lemmon] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I'm sure there are a number of ways to justify it. In the end, unless you are a pro who might make money/endorsements off this, it's still just a silly hobby. Spending a lot of money on it just means you are spending a lot of money on your silly hobby.

But now you think it's OK to demand that every Kona qualifier be available for out-of-competition drug testing to make you feel better about spending all that money on your silly hobby.

(Please note, I definitely include myself in the group who is spending far too much money on this silly hobby)


Larry Himmel

Sep 15, 09 10:20

Post #25 of 105 (3340 views)
Re: AG drug testing: so, what changes? [JoeO] [In reply to] Quote | Reply

I have to admit, I think drug testing for AG-ers is kinda silly anyway. So someone taking drugs cheated you out of being able to brag to people that you qualified for Kona? Sad? Yes. Annoying? Frustrating? Probably. But I think its ridiculous that people feel that warrants a drug-testing program.

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