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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mlinenb] [ In reply to ]
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This is pretty crazy- from the Lemond article in Lemonde.... and very easy to come to the sad conclusion that 100% of the cyclists do the same thing- regardless of their marketing gimickry- as the sport has only gotten faster.

At the time of the Festina lawsuit, in 2000, in Lille, of testimonys had made the point that cyclists with VO2 max in the 70 were able to carry them to approximately 90. This jump of performance was so important that no clean cyclist then could compete. If one had used the method evaluation of V02 max, one could have noted the intensive use of the EPO and the blood transfusions in the group well before these practices are not also deeply anchored in our sport. This is why I remain dubitative vis-a-vis any performance which appears too good to be true

I think Mr. LeMond needs to look at Mr. Vayer's calculations and, more importantly, his assumptions (the important one being the correlation, or lack thereof, between FTP and VO2max) with perhaps the same level of skepticism he applies to athlete's performances...
Lemond's article- mentioned testimony given in the Festina Lawsuit. I assume testimony is given by witness or expert witnesses in the court of law. Lemond is not making the conclusions- but stating what a court case found. Take Lemond out of this, Tom A. Once again- it's time to view the forest- versus focusing on a tree.
Don't be so quick to hold up eyewitness testimony as truth. This is one of the main flaws within the judicial system.
http://agora.stanford.edu/...sher&tversky.htm
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [gbot] [ In reply to ]
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a) How sad is it that our society has come to this, guilty before proven innocent and never truly proven innocent in some peoples minds...an this is for all sports, just ask Beke.

It's not sad that 'our society' has come to this, it's sad that CYCLING has come to this. If you don't rationally assume that cycling is rife with cheaters/dopers, given the mountain of evidence to that effect, then you're either hopelessly naive, or worse yet have some sort of ulterior motive to protect dopers.

You can't look at the huge numbers of positive tests across all 'demographics' within cycling and not extend that to assuming that many if not most of the 'stars' of the sport are cheaters and dopers.

I love the sport enough that I can watch it and enjoy it while knowing that cheating is rampant and pervasive. I don't need to fool myself into thinking that cycling, or baseball, or MMA are clean, in order to be a passionate fan of any of them. Reality is what it is. Given the history of the sport and the present state of technology, it's likely that Contador is juiced to the gills. That's just a sad fact. Wishful thinking doesn't help the situation any.
You did a fantastic job giving an example how pathetic and sad it is. Going on the attack against anyone who prefers to see guilt proven before condemning the person, using double standards (are you in fear of everyone as you walk the streets considering the mountain of evidence of the horrible things people do?) You can make all the assumptions you want and you can look at all the numbers you want but it doesn't make it any less sad that you feel a group of people don't deserve the same right to be innocent until proven guilty. It's a double standard. Who said anything about wishful thinking? Sounds to me like you like to make things up to help you feel superior to someone who doesn't buy into your double standard. All pro athletes might be doping (yes my comment was about all sports, not just cycling, but don't let that stand in the way) but let someone prove it before you convict someone. I that really such a horrible thing in your mind?
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [scottie18] [ In reply to ]
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(are you in fear of everyone as you walk the streets considering the mountain of evidence of the horrible things people do?) You can make all the assumptions you want and you can look at all the numbers you want but it doesn't make it any less sad that you feel a group of people don't deserve the same right to be innocent until proven guilty.

Work with statistics when it comes to cycling; the rate of positive tests to drugged up cyclists is terrible. If you had a similar conviction rate in every day court cases, well, we wouldn't have a problem with prison overcrowding!

The brushing under the carpet of Puerto hasn't helped.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [zebragonzo] [ In reply to ]
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(are you in fear of everyone as you walk the streets considering the mountain of evidence of the horrible things people do?) You can make all the assumptions you want and you can look at all the numbers you want but it doesn't make it any less sad that you feel a group of people don't deserve the same right to be innocent until proven guilty.

Work with statistics when it comes to cycling; the rate of positive tests to drugged up cyclists is terrible. If you had a similar conviction rate in every day court cases, well, we wouldn't have a problem with prison overcrowding!

The brushing under the carpet of Puerto hasn't helped.
1) What is the percentage of positive results to cyclists?

2) Even if the rate is not the same does that mean that one group (pro athletes) do not deserve the opportunity to have to be proven guilty?
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [scottie18] [ In reply to ]
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I'd be happy to consider all athletes innocent until proven guilty, as soon as they (specially cyclists) agree to not only have urine, but also blood and hair tests as part of anti doping procedure, with the 'it's an invasion of privacy' argument.

Of course, that would also require a full revision of the anti doping procedure, and its agencies, with full transparency, independence, etc...
Not an easy task by any mean.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [scottie18] [ In reply to ]
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From Ricco:
"They made 10 tests in about 13 legs - two were positive and in theory all the tests should have been positive. Therefore the method needs to be checked," he said.
That's a 20% success rate for a drug that they can actually detect!

When the dopers are not capable of being caught, then yes, it's perfectly reasonable to speculate as to who's dirty based on a range of factors. That's why we debate who's dirty and who's not.

I think I'm using your same logic in saying: if you see a cyclist taking drugs even though they never fail a test, they're innocent because they haven't failed a test?
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [scottie18] [ In reply to ]
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Of course, I meant 'without' not with the invasion of privacy argument...
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [zebragonzo] [ In reply to ]
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From Ricco:
"They made 10 tests in about 13 legs - two were positive and in theory all the tests should have been positive. Therefore the method needs to be checked," he said.
That's a 20% success rate for a drug that they can actually detect!

When the dopers are not capable of being caught, then yes, it's perfectly reasonable to speculate as to who's dirty based on a range of factors. That's why we debate who's dirty and who's not.

I think I'm using your same logic in saying: if you see a cyclist taking drugs even though they never fail a test, they're innocent because they haven't failed a test?
So instead of posting the number of positives to the number of cyclists to defend your claim you post info that shows testing is unreliable so even when someone tests positive we can't trust it unless they admit it...yet you prefer to claim everyone is guilty until they do the impossible...prove they are innocent.

Francois- Do you live your whole life by double standards?
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [scottie18] [ In reply to ]
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Hardly a double standard 'scottie'...Proving that you're clean is nearly impossible, however, if you allowed for blood testing, you'd be able to test a lot more, and the doubts would be significantly lowered.

What would you think of a person on trial for rape who refuses to do a DNA test?
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Hardly a double standard 'scottie'...Proving that you're clean is nearly impossible, however, if you allowed for blood testing, you'd be able to test a lot more, and the doubts would be significantly lowered.

What would you think of a person on trial for rape who refuses to do a DNA test?
Great example, are you willing to submit to a DNA test right now and other testing every day because people like you have been found guilty of rape?
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [scottie18] [ In reply to ]
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Francois- Do you live your whole life by double standards?

You know, if I were on an internet site and found myself making cheap shots and getting into arguments with almost every poster, I might reconsider some of my points of view and at the very least, how I am articulating my responses.

Just sayin.....
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [scottie18] [ In reply to ]
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So instead of posting the number of positives to the number of cyclists to defend your claim ...
I really can't see what posting the number of cyclists compared to the number of positives would acheive. Should I include my gran in the number of cyclists? She cycled down to the village to get her hair cut last week.

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you post info that shows testing is unreliable so even when someone tests positive we can't trust it unless they admit it
No, my post shows that those who dope don't always come up positive.

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...yet you prefer to claim everyone is guilty until they do the impossible...prove they are innocent.
We are arguing the case here. He's not. It's a discussion. The outcome will not have any major effect for him.

Of course, it would have helped his case if he'd had his DNA sampled to prove he wasn't involved with Puerto...
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [FJB] [ In reply to ]
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Francois- Do you live your whole life by double standards?

You know, if I were on an internet site and found myself making cheap shots and getting into arguments with almost every poster, I might reconsider some of my points of view and at the very least, how I am articulating my responses.

Just sayin.....
Says the guy who gets into arguments all the time and spends most of his time on forums posting hate for one athlete. Take a look in the mirror.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [zebragonzo] [ In reply to ]
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So instead of posting the number of positives to the number of cyclists to defend your claim ...
I really can't see what posting the number of cyclists compared to the number of positives would acheive. Should I include my gran in the number of cyclists? She cycled down to the village to get her hair cut last week.

You brought it up!
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you post info that shows testing is unreliable so even when someone tests positive we can't trust it unless they admit it
No, my post shows that those who dope don't always come up positive.
It also shows that the testing is not even close to 100% accurate.

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...yet you prefer to claim everyone is guilty until they do the impossible...prove they are innocent.
We are arguing the case here. He's not. It's a discussion. The outcome will not have any major effect for him.

Of course, it would have helped his case if he'd had his DNA sampled to prove he wasn't involved with Puerto...

Misdirection...very nice.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [scottie18] [ In reply to ]
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It's a beautiful day today. 81 degrees, sunny, and I got to bike to work today with a run to follow after my bike commute home. Life is great and happy times abound. Koom-by-ah.


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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [scottie18] [ In reply to ]
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and spends most of his time on forums posting hate for one athlete.

Please read my posts and then you can apologize for making an incorrect accusation.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [scottie18] [ In reply to ]
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The accurate comparison is: if you were accused of rape, would you submit to a DNA test. And the answer is, yes, of course (unless I were guilty).

Your comparison about 'testing every day' doesn't hold water. My initial analogy was simply to point out that if there is a way to significantly reduce doubt and show that you're clean, why not do it?
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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I should have learned my lesson yesterday "francois" that you are just a closed minded troll. Enjoy your last word.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [scottie18] [ In reply to ]
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Actually...Francois is my real name...And it seems you're the one disagreeing with everybody...moreover, you deleted your stupid post I was answering to...It was really funny...You're an idiot.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [scottie18] [ In reply to ]
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You did a fantastic job giving an example how pathetic and sad it is. Going on the attack against anyone who prefers to see guilt proven before condemning the person, using double standards (are you in fear of everyone as you walk the streets considering the mountain of evidence of the horrible things people do?) You can make all the assumptions you want and you can look at all the numbers you want but it doesn't make it any less sad that you feel a group of people don't deserve the same right to be innocent until proven guilty. It's a double standard. Who said anything about wishful thinking? Sounds to me like you like to make things up to help you feel superior to someone who doesn't buy into your double standard. All pro athletes might be doping (yes my comment was about all sports, not just cycling, but don't let that stand in the way) but let someone prove it before you convict someone. I that really such a horrible thing in your mind?
I'm not 'convicting' anyone. I certainly don't think the UCI should ban Contador based on a bunch of posts on Slowtwitch. However, I still think he's dirty. That's my opinion and I'm absolutely allowed to share it with anyone who'll listen. It's up to you whether or not you believe me, that's the beauty of discussion and debate. An analogy - take a street gang. Many of its members have been convicted of various crimes such as murder, drug dealing, burglary, etc etc etc - including its leader and most of his direct subordinates. Stories abound of 'initiations' where a new member has to go commit some crime to prove he's dedicated to the gang and is worthy of becoming a member. All these gangsters are standing on the corner one day. One particular one has all the tattoos signifying membership - a bunch of neighbourhood apparently locals saw him waving a gun around the other day, and he certainly seems to be accepted within the group. Can the cops arrest and charge him for anything? Of course not. Are they justified in assuming he's a threat to the peace and a criminal that should be watched closely? ABSOLUTELY. Pro cyclists aren't out there shooting people or robbing convenience stores. But they are generally known to be cheats and dopers. Can you convict an individual one based on the general knowledge that pro cyclists are cheats and dopers? Of course not. But assuming that an individual who's a part of this group is VERY LIKELY a cheat and a doper is perfectly reasonable. Contador is PROBABLY juiced to the gills. All the evidence (Puerto, Astana/Bruyneel, the TT, etc etc) certainly points that way. Assuming that he's innocent because you don't have absolute lock-down proof (especially when there are undetectable drugs out there) is just silly.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [gbot] [ In reply to ]
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You forgot that he learned his stuff with Manolo Saiz...
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [gbot] [ In reply to ]
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It is what it is, i think the best we can do is hope that they're all clean but in reality we should alway question. But i'm going to continue watching as though they're all just beasts.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [mreber] [ In reply to ]
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They are all beasts. And juiced.
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Re: Is Anyone Else Disturbed By This? Re: Contador's Ascent of Verbier [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Actually...Francois is my real name...And it seems you're the one disagreeing with everybody...moreover, you deleted your stupid post I was answering to...It was really funny...You're an idiot.
"I blow my nose at you, so-called 'Francois.'"


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