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Some tips on improving running form
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There were a couple of questions about this recently and a couple of PMs, so I thught I'd paste this one into the forum. I've included some pretty good videos as well. Enjoy.
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1st off, check out this video. Look at the 3 runners about a minute into it.

Note: This is from Frank Day's website endorsing Powercranks. At this point I have no opinion about the product, and Frank will likely respond to this post to add his endorsement. I will say, however, that his slow-mo videos ARE very good (even at the expense of making Paulo throw up again).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TOG0PaDYJvs

Notice particularly that the runners (even the average one) all stand up straight. In addtion, you want to land with your feet almost directly underneath you. Having a high cadence, standing tall, and focusing on picking up your feet and leading with the knee will help with this.

Now look at this video. I haven't watched it with the volume on, so I have no idea what they are saying. Just pay attention to what their legs are doing for the whole 6 minutes.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BFFD1u-sVAU

Okay - Now how can YOU run like them? (You won't......but you can get closer than wher eyou are today).


Watch the next three videos. I just searched them and they look pretty good....though, again, I don't have the volume on right now. I'll have to check them out again this weekend.

High knee, butt kickers

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YjNAt708Ykc


skips

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gE7N_PSjoI

strides

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=euN56EFx1XM


I do these a lot of these drills almost every time I run. In fact, I've been doing them for over 20 years now (Rome wasn't built in a day). Here's what I recommend (you can do them in your back yard or at nightime so the neighbors don't see you.....or, you can do them at the local track where you won't look quite so wierd).

PHASE 1:

At least three days a week before (after 5 minute warm up) or in the middle of your run:

*Note - 3 days a week was a recommendation for someone who wanted to make some significant improvements on their form. 1-2 days a week may be enough for maintenance for many avid runners*

1) 2x10 (each leg, for all of these) skips with rest in between. Make sure you move your arms, raise the knee high, and point the toes UP.

2) 2x10 high knees. You want these to be quick. The idea is that you are training your neuro-muscular system to tell the leg to spring up as soon as it hits the ground.

3) 2x10 butt kicks. Again, quickly.

4) Low hurdles. Get 8-10 15oz soup cans and set them up on the sidewalk, on a track, in your backyard....where ever it is convienient and you won't be embarassed. Line them up in a row about 3-4 feet apart. Run over them like you are running a 5K or 10K race with your feet landing inbetween each one. Don't "leap" over them. You want your head to stay relatively level. You'll find that you have to pick your feet up a bit in order to clear each can. You'll also find that it helps to lift your leg (like in a butt kicker) and drive the knee (like in high knees and skips). Stand up tall and use your running arms.

Note: You may land on your forefoot, on your midfoot, or on your heels as you do this. IMO it really isn't that important as long as you lead with your knee, point your toes up as the foot swings through, and land with the foot at plus or minus 15 degrees to the ground (either striking the heel then quickly roll to the forefoot, striking the mdifoot then roll quickly to the forefoot, striking the forefoot then quickly touch the heel to the ground then quickly roll to the forefoot, or land only on the forefoot....over time you will find what works best for you).

Run over one set, make a 180, jog back to the beginning, repeat. Do thi sat least 10 times. You can do this all afternoon if you wish!

Note: Undoubtedly I expect some cheap shots on the soup can hurdles. Feel free to spend $115 a hurdle here: http://www.trackoutlet.com/.../42/products_id/2106 or you can stop by a local competetive track facitily and maybe borrow theirs. Trust me, this is no gimick. 100 hurdles a day will do wonders to your form.


5) Strides. These will be done at a fairly high speed, but not sprinting. The idea is to try to use everything you learned in the previous 4 drills. REALLY focus on good form, the best you can, during these. Do 6 sets of 50 meters.


Keep in mind that the motions used in the above drills are all exagerated motions, much like when a martial artiist paractices his katas. When running 8, 9, or even 12 minutes a mile, you won't be driving your knees up to your waist or picking your feet up so high that you can step over 15oz soup cans. However, the fundamentals will still be the same. You'll just be doing it at a lower speed.


PHASE 2:

Once or twice a week find a fairly steep hill. Run up it, jog down it. Do this for 15 minutes.

When you run up it focus on everything you learned in the drills. Pick your feet up over those cans (but don't leap) and drive your knees as you run up this hill. Focus on form, not speed. Stay on your forefoot as you run up the hill.

*Note: Simply running hills regularly and focusing on form as you run up them year round may be all that is needed for avid runners*

PHASE 3:

Work on your cadence. You want to get it up to 180+ strides a minute (90+ cycles per minute). There ARE cheap portable metronomes out there smaller than an ipod nano for pretty cheap. I suggest stopping by a local music store. I know my brother had one when he was a marching band drum major. Being at what feels natural and run to the beat. Then, every few minutes speed it up by 1 bpm. Do this until you reach 90 bpm. I'd suggest even ramping it up to 95 bpm for a while so that 90 feels comfortable (maybe even slow).

You can also run with an ipod and download asong that advertises its bpm (again, look for 90 or 180).

You can also periodically check during your runs by looking at your watch. When it hits XX:00, count strides for the next minute. Do this over and over again for several minutes. Try to beat your last count.


Again, keep in mind that these are all drills to help you improve your form. During workouts and races you definitely want to pay attention to your form, and hopefuly your body will begin to naturally gravitate to what is more efficient. However, you won't actually be kicking your butt and stepping over soup cans.....not at 10 minutes a mile!

Hopefully this helps. You may want to read this a couple of times and go back and check out the videos again.

Good luck!




* runtraining8 *

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Great post. Whether someone is a PowerCranker or not it points out the need for great Hip flexors and hamstrings to be fast which alone can explain a lot of the running improvement people see when they start training with PowerCranks.

One thing I noted as I tried to pause these videos to look at their form, specifically their foot plant. In the Boulder video it looked like some of them were landing on their forefoot whereas in the last one where he is doing strides, it looked like he was landing on his heel but not overstriding. Clearly, there is room for some individual variation here as I doubt any of these people are slouches when it comes to this stuff.

Anyhow, I thank you for finding these. I noticed this guy had a few more also. I will check them out. I will probably incorporate them into my web page where we deal with running form.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
Last edited by: Frank Day: May 14, 07 8:02
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Great post ... just what I needed.

RE: cadence. Does the cadence change for taller runner? I'm 6'7". My cadence is in the mid-80s. Do I still need to be the 90s? I'm having trouble getting there. Yet, whatever you reply about optimal cadence for taller runners, I'm going to try these videos to increase it.
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the videos and info, they're really helpful. Quick question though; the videos show that these guys are pretty darn fast, the cadence and stride length are pretty obvious. How would you make changes for someone just starting out? I find it hard to replicate this form unless I'm doing at least an 8-9 min mile. For someone who's just starting out and trying to get duration in, many would do like a 11-12 min mile, more if they're JUST beginning.(well that and at that speed it feels more like jogging and not running per se)

So, is it better to make sure you have the form down and run at that form for as long as you can from the beginning even if it's 1-2 miles? Or just get mileage in regardless of form and do the drills? Or do you have suggestions on how this form can be replicated at slower speeds.
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [TriFloyd] [ In reply to ]
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I think the data on 6'7" runners is pretty small to draw a solid conclusion. I will say, however, that I am 6'3" but have a 36" inseam and run at 90 rpm pretty comfortably.

If I remember correctly, Henry Kipchirchir has a 40" inseam and I don't remember his cadence looking exceptionaly low. Mid 80s aren't terrible. I'd still suggest working on a faster cadence through drills. Ideally what ever cadence is best for you will come out.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [IzzyG] [ In reply to ]
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[reply]Thanks for the videos and info, they're really helpful. Quick question though; the videos show that these guys are pretty darn fast, the cadence and stride length are pretty obvious. How would you make changes for someone just starting out? I find it hard to replicate this form unless I'm doing at least an 8-9 min mile. For someone who's just starting out and trying to get duration in, many would do like a 11-12 min mile, more if they're JUST beginning.(well that and at that speed it feels more like jogging and not running per se)

So, is it better to make sure you have the form down and run at that form for as long as you can from the beginning even if it's 1-2 miles? Or just get mileage in regardless of form and do the drills? Or do you have suggestions on how this form can be replicated at slower speeds.[/reply]

You can't even begin to run like this until you have a good base. I would just keep slogging along, getting the miles in under your belt and as you see improvement come just keep thinking about this stuff and work towards this end. You can also get PC's but whether you do or don't, I would also start making the drills shown part of your warm up routine, even though you won't run like that for a very long time.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [IzzyG] [ In reply to ]
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5 minutes into this video you'll see Alan Webb jogging a victory lap. Notice the circular motion of his feet. His stride doesn't open up like the Kenayans, but he is still picking his feet up, stepping over a soup can, leading with the knee, and landing on top of his feet......even at relatively low speeds (probably 9 minutes a mile).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKxqeJcUx-A


Don't concern yourself TOO much with every aspect of your form when you run. Just keep the cadence high and stand up straight. Use the drills and especially the striders to really focus on improving your form. Whatever you do, don't drop your cadence in an effort to open up your stride the way the Kenyans do. At 12 minutes a mile you'll simply be stepping over minature soup cans.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Two years ago, I made a post saying that Slowtwitch needed a "Doug Stern for Running" - someone who could clearly describe running form as Doug so effectively does with swimming.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...uest=12068410#389340

I think we have a winner....

Thanks for the post. This is very helpful.
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [TriFloyd] [ In reply to ]
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Here's something I (6'5") posted on a previous thread about cadence: http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...rch_string=;#1248482. I've been able to dramatically increase my mileage with no knee pain since I upped my "stride rate" - before doing so, my knees were keeping me from more is MORE (I'm still at something that resembles a little more is a LITTLE MORE, but I'm working on MORE).
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry, thanks for posting - you and doug stern (good thoughts, good thoughts) have to be the most valuable posters of this forum ...

question i've (always) had is how would you describe proper hip position? i've seen the prefontaine movie where the coach describes hip position as rotated forward (as in deepest penetration during sex), in order to reduce strain on the hip flexors ... this seemed to make a lot of sense, but i'm loathe to take form advice from a hollywood movie ... otherwise i might be riding like kevin costner in american flyers ...

thanks
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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I wonder which of these runners Learn is
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry - thanks for posting the videos. My opinion is that the pro duathlete guy is a big time heel striker and I think he would run faster but not running on his heels. Also, he needs to lean forward to keep the momentum going forward. If you heel strike, from what I have learned, you are 'braking' every time you take a step. Then you have to re-start the momentum all over again. If you ever get sore quads from long runs, you'll know why (Braking). Keeping the feet quick and light and lessening ground contact time is key, imo. I don't think 'running tall' is important as leaning forward. Leaning forward keeps the momentum going forward and allows the runner to use less quad and more calf.

Lastly, picking the knee up to increase stride length is completely wrong from what I have learned. Learning to push off the back foot is what increases stride length. If you ever get a chance to come to Boulder, set up a time to do a run session with Bobby McGee, it will be well worth your time. Thanks again, interesting videos.

Mike Ricci
2017 USAT World Team Coach
USAT National Coach of the Year
Coaching Triathletes since 1992.
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [Dreamer] [ In reply to ]
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Tome Demerly wrote:

"If we had a running Doug Stern and a cycling Doug Stern it would be awesome. I'd pay big $$$ for that."


Where's my big $$$?

; ^ )


But seriously, I consider that a great compliment that I'm not worthy of. I am but a young grasshopper to Doug's Confucious......but I try. I just hope no one gets hurt = (

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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That's a great video. What interests me most in that is the lack of up and down movement when Webb is in full flight. Just looking at the shots of the guy in second place, there's a noticable difference between those two. This is what I struggle with-- too much up and down which robs forward momentum. Well, it's one of main things I struggle with. I'm pretty far from ideal run form although I'm much better than I used to be.

Thanks for the resources. Good stuff.

Alicia

__________________________
http://www.aliciaparr.com/blog
http://www.performentor.com

Yes, I too am on Facebook. And LinkedIn. And Twitter. Which begs the question - do I exist in the physical world? Do I?
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [TomAnnapolis] [ In reply to ]
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question i've (always) had is how would you describe proper hip position? i've seen the prefontaine movie where the coach describes hip position as rotated forward (as in deepest penetration during sex), in order to reduce strain on the hip flexors ... this seemed to make a lot of sense, but i'm loathe to take form advice from a hollywood movie ... otherwise i might be riding like kevin costner in american flyers ...
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Donald Southerland was correct. I remember that exact scene because it was a MAJOR problem that I fixed on my own back in 2000 that drmaticaly improved my form. Before that I looked like "average runner" in Frank's video.......though I might add I was a fast "average runner."

Your hips want to be in line with your torso. *Most* runners will want to focus on standing tall and thrusting the hips forward. Think of crossing the finish line with your "you know what" when you run.

Here are the pictures again. Keep in mind that he is running incredibly fast, so he's leaning a little more forward than you or I would. However, his hips are more or less in line with his upper torso. Picture 3 shows it best with his femur, hips, and torso almost completley in line. Notice that his forward lean is NOT a bend at the waist (which too many heel smashers do).

Remember, it's not just *where* the hips are, but what their alignment is. *I* have to constantly think not only of thrusting them forward, but of ROTATING counter clockwise (in relation to the pictures below)....like you are doing the..."you know what."



-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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He's the elite, of course.

; ^ )

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [Mike Ricci] [ In reply to ]
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You make some good points Mike. I should make some clarifications.


Re: forward lean - The lean should mimic all the good runners in the videos and in the pictures. However, the lean should be from the ankles, not at the waist. Though "average runner" and "duathlete" are standing TOO erect, many struggling runners slouch and/or lean at the waist allowing their head and chest to hang to far forward over their toes.

So "standing tall with a slight forward lean" may be a better term.

Re: heal strike - There is still a lot of controversy about what is "correct" foot striking. I've copied a post from Jack Daniels below, but the gist is that the only people I've heard make the hard claim that your heels should never touch the ground are those selling "revolutionary running methods" and stand to make a lot of money off of them. IMO it's a tradeoff between effeciency and fatigue. As your speed increases, your point of contact with the ground moves from the heel toward the forefoot. While running 12 minutes a mile during the run leg of an ironman, the difference in effeciency (less braking) becomes negligible where the difference in fatigue, for many..if not most runners becomes great. In otherwords, I don't believe that a majority of peopler can run and entire IM leg keeping their heels off the ground.

That being said, the Duathlete in the video IS a terrble heal striker. However, it has little to do with th efact that his heel hits the ground first and everything to do with the fact that his foot hits the ground well in front of his center line with his foot at a steep angle.

Cousin Elwood and I just discussed this last week and I had to prove to him (though I haven't recorded the videos yet) that I can land on my heels on a treadmill and make LESS noice than when I do on my forefoot. To understand what I am talking about, simply look at the video of the elite runner and rotate his foot ever so slightly back at the point of impact so that his heel connects with the ground microseconds before his forefoot does. THAT is a properly executed heel strike.

Re: picking up the kee to increase stride length. I don't disagree with what you said, but lifting the knee and leading with it IS proper form, however it isn't done "to increase stride length." It is done to facilitate the lower leg to swing through, to bring the foot up under the knee, and then to begin the "paw back" so that the foot is actually moving backward with respect to the hips just before foot strike. This is what prevents braking. Even forefoot strikers need the motion in order to prevent braking to occur. When I was in high school I ran the 800 entirely on my forefoot and breaked the entire way with each stride (imagine the motion of kicking instead of cycling....the foot is moving forward at the point if contact instead of rearward).



.......as promised......

From Jack Daniels:

"Not to solve the original question, but to add some insight. We ran tests on many runners while having them run using their chosen foot-strike, then fore-foot and rear-foot and mid-foot (one of which may also have been their chosen method). Most were most economical using the choen foot-strike (be it for, rear or mid), but we found some fore-foot runners who were more economical switching to rear-foot and visa versa, which seems pretty amazing to me -- that a runner who has used a particular foot-strike technique for years could immediately be more economical by changing. However, now the confusinig part -- the tests were on a treadmill and of course treadmills are more like a road thana good synthetic track, so th ewhole thing changes. As was pointed out heel-striking on a road is tough, but on a nice springy track it can be most enjoyable. Add grass as in cross country and I think rear-foot striking may offer better traction (the small area of a fore-foot landing on a soft (especially muddy) surface is not too great for running fast). So we have to imagine that the whole conversation is related to a standard track surface, and my guess is that you will find different foot-strike patterns among the good runners. Then there is the issue of whether you mean what foot-strike do elite runners use when running easy pace or are you only interested in what they use at race pace" *** from http://www.letsrun.com/...39&thread=197839

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [aliciap] [ In reply to ]
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Just looking at the shots of the guy in second place, there's a noticable difference between those two.
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I noticed the same thing. What's amazing is the guy in second place is still way faster than either you or me!

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [Mike Ricci] [ In reply to ]
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Lastly, picking the knee up to increase stride length is completely wrong from what I have learned. Learning to push off the back foot is what increases stride length.
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Out of curiosity, do you know how this is achieved? I've heard this as well but have not heard anyone specifically refer to how to improve on this. My best intuition tells my that Lydiard style hill repeats are the way to go.

Any more input will be greatly appreciated.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, obviously bounding and hills are important, but using the 'claw back' works as well trying to flick the toe back at the end of the push off. We have seen some results with this method such that the runners come back with sore calves but faster run times on the same HR as before. So, it works, but it's not easy to concentrate on it for an hour or 90 minutes or more. It takes practice.

Mike Ricci
2017 USAT World Team Coach
USAT National Coach of the Year
Coaching Triathletes since 1992.
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [Mike Ricci] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
...faster run times on the same HR as before.
And this tells you what?
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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I am going out on a limb here: better efficiency

Mike Ricci
2017 USAT World Team Coach
USAT National Coach of the Year
Coaching Triathletes since 1992.
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [Mike Ricci] [ In reply to ]
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I thought that would be your answer. Unfortunately it is wrong. What is efficiency, btw? Maybe you meant economy? How do you measure efficiency (or economy) using HR?
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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"How do you measure efficiency (or economy) using HR?"

With a heart rate monitor.... LOL!!!

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: Some tips on improving running form [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Better fitness? (Assuming the variable factors are unchanged.)








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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"Better fitness? (Assuming the variable factors are unchanged.)"

You mean like heart rate.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: Some tips on improving running form [etocaj] [ In reply to ]
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Um, no. I don't think that's what I mean, anyway.

It seems to me that if you're running faster today at a given heartrate than you were a year ago at the same heartrate, you're fitter now than you were a year ago. Your physical ability to run has improved. You are in better running condition. I'd go so far as to guess that you're a better runner, and can run faster now than a year ago.

So, let's say last year you could maintain a pace of 8:15/mile at 165 bpm. This year, you can run 7:30 pace at 165 bpm. It looks to me as if you're a better runner.

The variables I was thinking about were things like weather conditions, fatigue, nutrition, etc.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Lastly, picking the knee up to increase stride length is completely wrong from what I have learned. Learning to push off the back foot is what increases stride length.
___________________

Out of curiosity, do you know how this is achieved? I've heard this as well but have not heard anyone specifically refer to how to improve on this. My best intuition tells my that Lydiard style hill repeats are the way to go.

Any more input will be greatly appreciated.

Actually, what increases stride length is going fast. That requires a stronger push into the ground, not necessarily "pushing off the back foot". As Aaron explains, getting off the ground quickly with a strong force into the ground is the combination needed. telling people they need to push off the back foot is misinterpreted as needing to push longer, this will slow them down.

--------------
Frank,
An original Ironman and the Inventor of PowerCranks
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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But, how do you ensure that all the variables that impact heart rate remain constant?

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: Some tips on improving running form [Mike Ricci] [ In reply to ]
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Yes, obviously bounding and hills are important, but using the 'claw back' works as well trying to flick the toe back at the end of the push off. We have seen some results with this method such that the runners come back with sore calves but faster run times on the same HR as before. So, it works, but it's not easy to concentrate on it for an hour or 90 minutes or more. It takes practice.
______________________

Interesting. I'll have to search around and see if anyone else does this. My guess is that hill work and "skipping for height" will have similar effects, as will some of the plymetrics that Paulo provided us with from some research paper a while back.

A lot of the form training that I've been accustomed to had been in the form of specific drills, rather than a "concentration" on any one particular aspect while "running for 90 minute"....for example. However, short periods of focus during 50 meter striders or hills are done. I believe the theory is that once you give your body the specific "muscle memory" it will naturally gravitate to what works best while running......not always the case, though.


With regard to Paulo's comments about measuring pace vrs heart rate, it can be misleading when utilizing different muscle groups. There are two examples that come to mind in my personal experience in recent history. 1) My heart rate goes up much higher than my effort when I run up hills and 2) my heart rate goes down much lower than my effort when I cut my cycling cadence by 50%. IOW, I can run up a hill for an hour at 95% of my max HR but cannot do that on flat ground and I can cycle for 6 hours at 70% of my max HR @90 rpm but only for 30 minutes or so at the same HR at 60 rpm.

The only reason I think it may be of importance here is that you may be teaching the runners to utilize more of different fibers and *that* may be having the effect on the heart rate. This doesn't mean that they didn't get faster as a result of the form work. Only that HR may not give the full picture.

Frankly, if you do that exercise for 6 weeks and your runner looks more like a Kenyan.....then that's enough evidence for me! ; ^ )

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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The only reliable measure of fitness is performance.
The only way to measure econony is to measure oxygen consumption at submaximal pace/power.
Efficiency is mechanical power output for a given energy consumption.
Both economy and efficiency can't be measured by measuring HR.
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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The only reliable measure of fitness is performance.
________________________

And what becomes really difficult is figuring out if 6 weeks of drills improved performance or if it was simply 6 more weeks of running. If you can figure that one our, I'll buy your book! Until then I'm stuck reading your boring Fluids papers = (


(jk)

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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The only reliable measure of fitness is performance.

I doubt it. You'll have to elaborate for me.

The only way to measure econony is to measure oxygen consumption at submaximal pace/power.

Is oxygen consumption unrelated to heartrate in an individual?








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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You can doubt all you want. Hopefully your doubt will lead you to do some research on this and gather some knowledge on the subject.
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Hopefully your doubt will lead you to do some research on this and gather some knowledge on the subject.

I was hoping to gather some knowledge on the subject second hand.

Let's say that last year, I ran 3 miles in 24 minutes. My average hr was 180. This year, I ran the same course under the same conditions- except for a year of training. I kept my pace to the same 8 minute miles, and my average hr was 165. That's not a reliable indicator that I'm more fit?










"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Nope.
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Why not?








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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"That's not a reliable indicator that I'm more fit? "

Uhh, no, its not.

"I really wish you would post more often. You always have some good stuff to say. I copied it below just in case someone missed it." BarryP to Chainpin on 10/21/06

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Re: Some tips on improving running form [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Let's say that last year, I ran 3 miles in 24 minutes. My average hr was 180. This year, I ran the same course under the same conditions- except for a year of training. I kept my pace to the same 8 minute miles, and my average hr was 165. That's not a reliable indicator that I'm more fit?

No. The only way to know if you were more fit was that if you had gone faster.
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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Can I not safely assume that if I was running at the original 180 bpm, I'd be faster?








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe you cannot even reach the 180...
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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No.
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Actually the only true way is to race (or run test workouts) and compare times. During my IM last fall I bike for over 2 hours with my HR above 160, which was my HR for a 40K TT just weeks before. Once you consider that I continued on for almost 5 more hours after that one *might* conclude that my fitness dramatically improved in just a month.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Why not?








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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Your RPE on the same route at the same pace would be more reliable. IOW, last year you were breathing really heavy, in a lot of pain, and couldn't wait to finish.....consistently. This year you feel like it's a walk in the park, could easily carry a conversation, and felt like you could have done it a second time.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
Why not?
Improved blood volume and stroke volume with training.
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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The clock never lies. You need to race and see if you can run faster.
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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That doesn't count as improved fitness?

I'm not trying to argue with you guys. (I am not related to Learn.) I am not understanding what you're saying, I think. It seems to me that if my physiology has changed after training to the degree that I can't even get to the same hr as I averaged for a 3 mile run last year, I'm a lot more fitter.








"People think it must be fun to be a super genius, but they don't realize how hard it is to put up with all the idiots in the world."
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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One WOULD tend to believe that, but it just simply isn't the case. As I pointed out before, ESPECIALLY when utilizing different muscles than you used before (or temperature, humidity, anxiety, etc) your heartrate at a given level of fitness and pace *can* change.

HR monitors are good guides, but they should be used with caution. It would be like using a voltmeter connected to your cars wiring harness to determine how fast it is going. If you turn on the radio or the windshield wipers, you will get a different reading without going faster. This isn't the best analogy, but I hope it gets the point across.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [vitus979] [ In reply to ]
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If you want to answer the question "Am I fitter?" with "I'm probably fitter, but maybe I'm not", then using HR is good enough.

If you want to measure economy (or efficiency, I am still wondering what Ricci was talking about) changes for different running styles, then HR is certainly not good enough.
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry: No offense intended, but I don't need any running form advice because running comes naturally to me. I'm not saying this to brag because I soak up all the advice I can get on swimming form looking for all the help I can get. So far, not so good.

My point is the good swimmers just naturally have "it" and probably don't understand why the rest of us struggle so much in the water. The same goes for the good runners for which running comes natural.

Now golf is a different story. The pros seem to be constantly looking for a new swing coach or what have you. I could use a little help with my golf game if you have some good videos.
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Barry, this may be a silly question, but is this form realistically repeatable over a marathon? Or is this more for the 5-10K races?


"I can endure more pain than anyone you've ever met. That's why I can beat anyone I've ever met." Steve Prefontaine, Without Limits
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [MPB1950] [ In reply to ]
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Funny post
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [MPB1950] [ In reply to ]
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Seems to be working for Mickelson...
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [Uncle Phil] [ In reply to ]
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Phil?
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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http://www.iaaf.org/news/newsId=35546,printer.html

"Templeton reveals that for the past six months Songok and Choge have been working with Australian coach Rob Higley who describes his work as “improvement of structure and movement”.

Simply put he has improved the Kenyans’ running efficiency with a series of biomechanical drills. "

If this is any indication of how funny the statement above was...
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [Francois] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah...he won the biggest golf payday of the year this past weekend after very recently starting to work with Butch Harmon (former coach to Tiger Woods, Greg Norman, et. al).
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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No question about that! And he probably weighs less than me too! :)

__________________________
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Yes, I too am on Facebook. And LinkedIn. And Twitter. Which begs the question - do I exist in the physical world? Do I?
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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I remember doing those in XC in middle school! I didn't realize there was a point to them though... I thought the coach just enjoyed laughing at us do them. Appartenly she must have actually known what she was doing with us :P

fun fun fun. except the hurdles - I'm supposed to avoid those. and steeplechase.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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You can probably get away with soup can hurdles...


<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [Khai] [ In reply to ]
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can we make soup-can steeplechase, too?

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [tigerchik] [ In reply to ]
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Sure, just don't slip on the alphabets...


How come Campbells' Alphabet soup is identical to their Vegetable soup, yet always costs more?


<If you're gonna be dumb, you gotta be tough>
Get Fitter!
Proud member of the Smartasscrew, MONSTER CLUB
Get your FIX today?
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [Khai] [ In reply to ]
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How come Campbells' Alphabet soup is identical to their Vegetable soup, yet always costs more?
_________________________

You are paying for the knowlege!

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [MPB1950] [ In reply to ]
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My point is the good swimmers just naturally have "it" and probably don't understand why the rest of us struggle so much in the water. The same goes for the good runners for which running comes natural.
____________________________

I'll argue that good swimmers/runners naturally develop it....through experience...and drills. It's no different that piano lessons. Some learn quicker than others.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [Bluefan75] [ In reply to ]
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Look at the video in post number 7. You have to watch the whole thing, but right around the 5 minute mark you see Alan Webb jogging a victory lap at ~9 minutes a mile. The form is still the same with him standing tall (but not necessarily completely vertical), picking up the feet, leading with the knee, and stepping over minature soup cans.


However, keep in mind that ALL of the drills are overexagerations of what you will actually do when you run. If you look at the videos, you'll notice that no one actually lifts their knees has high as the guy does in the high knee drill.

What is most important during a marathon is being relaxed. In theory, through doing these drills over and over again, you will teach your body good form. Then, when you are in a race and want to go faster, it will natuarlly do whatever it can to go faster.......but now it has in its bag of tricks the muscle memory of "proper form".....however, it will only kick the butt or lift the knee as much as necessary.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In theory, through doing these drills over and over again, you will teach your body good form.

So in theory, how can an activity that takes up maybe 1 to 5% of your total training time impact so powerfully in changing your movement patterns? Or are you advocating that you do drills for a substancial part of your training time?

Next you're going to tell me that you have to practice "good form" (whatever that is) in all of your runs. Sure... but if you do that, what are the drills for again?

Lastly, where is the connection between "good form" and running economy? I have never seen it proved and there are no awards for those that run pretty.
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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BarryP wrote about a lot of other ideas for running and training for the run leg of the triathlon before he wrote about running drills and that means, to me at least, that drills aren't as important as just getting out there and running, but they do offer some benefits.

Slowman wrote an article that I thought was pretty interesting about technique, The High Cost of Good Form,(http://www.slowtwitch.com/...corn/costofform.html), perhaps you've read it. I like what he wrote, and if I wasn't able to paste the link I would spend some time paraphrasing it here.

At the end of the day, I think good technique won't make anyone slower, but it only goes so far.

I also think that drills won't help a runner who has functional issues with their core.

I would probably run the last 10% of any tempo run a few seconds slower if I didn't change my focus from how much I was hurting to thinking about how I was running.

This is where drills are useful for me--I do them a few times a week so I can check my form over and over when I'm running.
Last edited by: cdanrun: May 15, 07 7:30
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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"So in theory, how can an activity that takes up maybe 1 to 5% of your total training time impact so powerfully in changing your movement patterns? Or are you advocating that you do drills for a substancial part of your training time?"
*************

I don't know. I'd be interested to hear your answer, unless you mean to tell me that your athletes swim one arm strokes, breath to the opposite side....more than 5% of their total training time.
*************

"Next you're going to tell me that you have to practice "good form" (whatever that is) in all of your runs. Sure... but if you do that, what are the drills for again?"
*************

Actually I wan't going to say that, but I will refer to my previous swimming analogy.
*************

Lastly, where is the connection between "good form" and running economy? I have never seen it proved and there are no awards for those that run pretty.
*************

Yet pretty runners seem to win all the time.

I can't currently give you an answer that you'll like. I am, however, doing some digging for scientific studies. If I find them, I'll show them to you. It is entirely possible that the T&F world is off on this one. It won't be the first time.

With regard to percentages of time spent on form drills, cdanrun nailed it. They certainly take a much lower priority than most other aspects of training.....at least in this man's opinion, for whatever that's worth. I've heard some argue that time would be better spent doing swimming drills instead, just as you and I have advocated doing SBR instead of lifting weights. However, I'll contend that in the middle of my run I don't have a pool.....so I might as well do some running drills while I'm dressed for them.

The faster the race and the worse the athlete's form, the more important the drills become.....but I can only answer from experience.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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The best all around running method is Chi Running. check it out at www.chirunning.com. It's smiple, easy to do, and easy to learn.
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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This one's a bit grainy but has a lot of also good footage of the current world record holder in the mile.

http://www.youtube.com/...vCsj7eJKKA&eurl=

Interesting to note that pretty much all of them have "good form" until they are dead tired, like when the first pacer drops off after the second lap. You can see a dramatic shift in his form coming around the corner where it's obvious that he's hurting. I'd wager the speed is a result of the form, not the reverse. :)


Mad
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:

Yet pretty runners seem to win all the time.
No, those that win all the time seem pretty. They determine what is good form.
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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No, those that win all the time seem pretty. They determine what is good form.
_____________________________________

And it is completely random. Got it.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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If anyone is still following this thread, I got this from my college T & F coach. Again, it is something that we may look back 30 years from now and say, "remember when everyone thought that was a good idea?" I like them and seem to notice the benefits in my running and of those I've coached.
______________

Re: form drills

"They are recommended at almost every clinic or school that I go to,
including the USATF school. The drills are exaggerations of the
movements needed for running, hopefully improving strength,
flexibility,
and range of motion. I'm not sure about the scientific research. I do
think they are part of the puzzle."

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the post Barry. Good stuff. On my run this morning I was running right with those chasingKimbia guys. OK, it was in my mind but it felt great, although the cool, overcast weather helped aslo. They dropped me big-time on the last hill though. :-(
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [schroeder] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the post Barry. Good stuff. On my run this morning I was running right with those chasingKimbia guys. OK, it was in my mind but it felt great, although the cool, overcast weather helped aslo. They dropped me big-time on the last hill though. :-(
______________________________

Actually where I live, you CAN run with Kenyans. I never have, but I've seen them occasionally on my way to work. They like to show up to local races and take all the prize money.....for jogging.

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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.....and I picked this up from Tinman over at TheRunZone. He used to post a lot on Letsrun and is fairly knowlegable of the running research that's been done out there.

Here's his post. Take what you can from it (or skip to th esummary at the end of it).
______________________________________
Friend in running,

Running "drills" have different meanings. If you are talking about technique drills (the A, B, C drills), such as butt kicks, high knees, and pawing motion, then you probably won't find much science research, one way or the other, that shows results. If you do, it probably shows only results if the subjects are novice!

The use of techniqe drills is traditional and emperical. Some coaches have found that drills "seem" to improve skill (in running), especially at faster speeds. But, there isn't much scientific proof (that I know of) to verify the assumption or supposition.

If you are talking about bounding or plyometric drills, there is some evidence that economy is enhanced. The question is, economy of what?

Economy tends to be fairly specific to the activity one is doing and related to the speed of movement. It is also quite related to previous experience or, rather, inexperience. If you have been doing traditional base conditioning in which slow or moderate paced distance work is being done, then anything that is faster will enhance running economy and thereby facilitate performance enhancement.

The next question is this: Are the changes in performance related to motor-neural elements instead of biochemical?

Are you able to, as a result of doing some dynamic bounding or plyos or quick step running, integrate or initiate more motor-neural units or even activate them in a more fluid an efficient manner than before?
--------------------------
In my opinion, the best uses of drills are as follows (based on my emperical observations):

1) Technique drills improve dynamic flexibility and therefore may provide less resistance at faster running speeds.

2) Bounding drills improve motor-neural activation and coordination for explosive (sprint) running.
---------------------------
Next question: Can performance enhancement result from simply including fartlek or interval or repetition training to one's training program and provide similarl gains that drills do (if they do)?

My answer: Probably yes!

I believe that Bill Bowerman, one of my four heroes on the coaching realm, had it right when he said that his method was "eclectic." He borrowed the best training items from various camps of theory or practice and integrated them into his training method.

- I borrow some basic things that seem sometimes to come from various camps. For example, if I am coaching hands-on, I use technique drills to loosen up a runner before or after a workout, sometimes before or after a distance run, too.

- I include bounding drills, but only lightly and typically they are uphill which is safer for a runner. Sure, there may be a some loss in translation (from uphill bouding) to flat running, yet there may be substantive motor-neural activation (the central nervous system's part in performance) which is global rather than local. At least that's my theory!


I don't schedule plyometric drills simply because the risks for injuries or excessive muscle soreness are high. As a high schooler, I was exposed to plyos all 4 track seasons. I did not do them during cross-country or while road-racing in the summer - and I performed and responded better to traditional training items because my legs were not so darn beat up.

The best year my high school team had included fewer plyos (than other years). We had better interval workouts and the distance guys were able to actually do more than 2-3 miles before their legs gave out on them.
---------------------------
As a collegiate coach (only 3 years), I did not use plyos. I avoided their use like the plague. My sprinters and jumpers weight trained 3 times per week - very simple stuff like box-squats, quarter-squats, et cetra. The routine was simple: 3 x 5-10 reps at a light, medium, and heavy weight that could be controlled. Rest breaks were 2 and 3 minutes between the 2nd and third sets.

When they weight trained, they did 20-25 minutes of pool running to loosen up their muscles, afterward. The opposite days were technical skills and then conditioning. Skill development for the jumpers and hurdlers was progressive. Workouts started with smaller elements - chunks. First phase, second phase, final phase was my motto.

We worked on each phase 3 times and then moved on. The athletes took their sweet time between each rep, too! I wanted them to have full motor-neural capacity in order to practice their event to perfection, or as close to it as possible. (Afterward, they did basic workouts).

* I don't believe in making workouts too complicated or convoluted. Core concepts and practices do the job every time. That means doing sets that are easy to design and easy to administer. I never timed my sprinters! Not once! I had them run totally by effort.

Examples: After a thorough warm up,

Monday - 8-10 x 100m at 80-85% effort, jogging 100m and walking 100m between each rep. Cool down.

Wednesday - 4 x 400m at 85% of best effort, alternating jog 100m, walk 100m, for a full 400m recovery. Cool down.

If they did not race on Friday or Saturday, they ran a step-down workout such as 600, 400, 200, 100m at 80-90% effort. It's that simple.

* During the time that I coached 3 years collegiately, my athletes took down 14 school records.
----------------------------------
Conclusion:

Though this discourse moved off the initial topic about "research on drills," I hope my position on the utitilty and use of drills is evident: do some but not too many. Don't expect drills to do magic, though!

- Drills may enhance dynamic flexibility, espcially for those who are not flexible.

- They may active the motor-neural system and therefore enhance the ability to generate peformance power.

- Other things can be done to facilitate peformance enhancement, too, which may be related to economy such as strength training and water running and doing workouts that are at the right effort and right amount are key!

- Use core workouts that do the job.

Be sure, no matter what type of event you are training for, to modulate your training. If you don't vary the intensity and the fatigue levels, you limit the progress that can be made. That doesn't mean you should rest every other day! *Runners need endurance more than anything, so taking days off isn't going to cut it. It means that intensity should be purposively varied, day to day.

If you ran hard intervals, a fartlek at a good effort, over hilly terrain, or a tempo run or race yestreday, today and tommor, you probably should run slowly and allow your body to absorb the harder workload of yesterday!

During times when you aren't doing fast or intense workouts, it ok to run some of your distance work at a quicker pace. Just don't get in the habit of trying to beat your "course record" every time you head out the door!

Modulation facilitates economy or efficiency, I posit, so keep that in mind!

Regards,

Tinman
runfastcoach@gmail.com

-----------------------------Baron Von Speedypants
-----------------------------RunTraining articles here:
http://forum.slowtwitch.com/...runtraining;#1612485
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [BarryP] [ In reply to ]
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The original post, some followups and other posts have been added to SlowTwiki:
http://slowtwitch.com/wiki/index.php/Run_Training_by_BarryP

Slowtwiki is "the user-edited endurance sports infobank published by Slowtwitch.com." ... "Slowtwiki is very easy to use. Just log in, click the "edit" button and start writing!"
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Re: Some tips on improving running form [Paulo] [ In reply to ]
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In Reply To:
In Reply To:

Yet pretty runners seem to win all the time.
No, those that win all the time seem pretty. They determine what is good form.

What's the difference between being pretty and seeming pretty? After all, beauty is in the eye of the beholder...
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