wow! They only need to replace the roadbars for aerobars.

Looks can be deceiving: it's really nothing but a highly-adjustable, eddy-current braked, ergometer, the likes of which have been around since before 1900. They're almost indispensable when doing laboratory-based research, but almost worthless when it comes to optimizing someone's position on a bike.

Check it out, the pedals have reflectors on them! Neat-o!

I talked to them at Interbike about it. Slowman helped design it so it has features similar to Ves Mandaric's Exit Fit bike except that the fitter uses a remote control the motors. While I was in the Guru booth Ves came by. He didn't seem impressed by it at all.

The Guru guys are trying to develop some software that could be used in conjunction with their fit machine so, in theory, anyone could be a fitter. Sounds like it's a long ways off though.

And this thing wouldn't be at all portable since it weighs a lot and is hooked up to a computer, monitor, etc. But we only move our fit bike every couple of weeks to vacuum and for various store events.

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-Darrell

The philosophy for this is obvious - set the rider up and then build the bike underneath him/her.

If you look at it closely it really only has four moving adjustments that I can note - seat and handlebars that go up and down vertically, a horizontal top tube adjustment and a horizontal BB adjustment. The mechanical concept is reasonably simple. It's the electronics and computer stuff that add the bling, although a tape measure and a few calculations would probaby work just as good.

I don't think it's mechanical design or reason for use is anything revolutionary. It's just the modern day electronics/computer that add the "gollygeewhiz" factor.

Here's a simpler mechanical version without the electronics

i highly doubt that this machine is "almost worthless when it comes to optimizing someone's position on a bike" considering that's what it was designed to do.

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Team Medique Powered by Silber Investments

In my opinion, it is, for two reasons:

1) short of performing an all-out effort of a relevant duration in every position tested, there's no way of knowing which position is optimal, and

2) even if power (performance) is currently greatest in some position X, that doesn't mean that some other position won't be just as good, if not better, after a period of adaptation/accomodation.

Due to points 1 and 2 above, positioning must be an ongoing, iterative process, and no "high tech" equipment can overcome this fact.

(BTW, Gerard and co. contemplated developing a similar fitting "system" approx. a decade ago, but ultimately rejected the idea, presumably due to the issues listed above.)

That looks great. Thanks to that, bike shops can now charge a lot more than a mere $250 for a bike fit.

"positioning must be an ongoing, iterative process, and no "high tech" equipment can overcome this fact. "

Bingo. The rider is constantly changing in terms of fitness, flexibility, etc. Compare beginning of season with end of season.

A bike fit is no more than the mating of a machine which has a certain range of adjustibility with a human body which has a certain degree of adaptability. Ideally, you're trying to minimize the two variables.

The body's adaptability is more variable. It's usually a matter of adjusting the machine to fit the body, which can be depend on time of season, training fitness, time off, injuries, etc in order to get the "optimal"fit.

Wow, I didn't expect to see such negative responses. I figured companies put so much technology into the bike end, that is was nice that some companies are putting effort into the fitting side of things.

I understand your point regarding adaptation, but, you have to start somewhere. When dealing with a Guru Crono, we are likely talking about a custom bike. So, we are not fitting a rider to a bike, but, building a bike to a rider. The Guru Fit Machine was built for that purpose. All the electronic "bling," as you put it, enables micro adjustment of the machine without dismounting. So, at speed, the machine can alter the dimensions of the bike and record the changes in cadence, speed, power, etc.

My Crono was built after an almost 4 hour bike fit on a Serotta fit machine. One of the primary reasons it took so long is that I had to dismount, make a minor adjustment, get back on, get back up to speed, measure power, etc. This has the potential for resulting in somewhat screwed results because of the stopping and starting.

I don't see anything that indicates that Guru is claiming this device will produce that absolute perfect fit. However, when we are talking about custom bikes, it certainly has the potential to create the "optimum" frame one could hope for.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

"One of the primary reasons it took so long is that I had to dismount, make a minor adjustment, get back on, get back up to speed, measure power, etc."



...and the point being made is that this measurement, in the context of bike fit, is a total red herring. Wattage measurement is a fantastic tool for many things, but bike fit isn't one of them.



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Tech writer/support on this here site. FIST school instructor and certified bike fitter. Formerly at Diamondback Bikes, LeMond Fitness, FSA, TiCycles, etc.
Coaching and bike fit - http://source-e.net/ Cyclocross blog - https://crosssports.net/ BJJ instruction - https://ballardbjj.com/

Quote: "...and the point being made is that this measurement, in the context of bike fit, is a total red herring. Wattage measurement is a fantastic tool for many things, but bike fit isn't one of them."

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I completely disagree. The point was not to see how much power I generated. The purpose to was to compare my body position, body movement, and perceived comfort level in different positions. I was told to hold X watts for Y minutes while the bike fitter observed my position and video taped my position. Then we tweaked the position and did it again, this time comparing how my body moved and felt in the new position at the same power level. This way we were comparing apples to apples. I found it to be much more valuable and effective than my previous road bike fit, at another store, that only eye-balled position.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I don't know about you, but when Dr Coggan says that a power-based fitting system is nearly worthless, I might be inclined to listen to that.

You should read what Dr. Coggan said compared to what I wrote. No conflict.

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Dr. Coggan: In my opinion, it is [worthless], for two reasons:

1) short of performing an all-out effort of a relevant duration in every position tested, there's no way of knowing which position is optimal, and

2) even if power (performance) is currently greatest in some position X, that doesn't mean that some other position won't be just as good, if not better, after a period of adaptation/accomodation.
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My disagreement does not conflict with either of these views. The point was not to determine my max wattage in every, or any, position or to compare max wattage in position X vs. position Y. Wattage was a constant and was well below my max. It was used to compare my body position, movement and perceived effort/comfort after minor adjustments to the position, while maintaining the same speed/cadence/power. I suppose the same effect could have been achieved by keeping the gear and cadence constant, but, this was just another factor used to ensure we were comparing apples to apples when comparing positions. And, as previously stated, in Guru's press release, Guru states that this device is used to aid the custom bike process. It does not determine optimum position, it is merely meant to determine more precise dimensions of a custom bike. The motorization allows the tweaking to be done on the fly w/o any need to dismount.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

What does this bad boy cost? My guess is somewhere north of $12K with the velotron, computer, software, etc. Anyone know for sure?

So what, exactly, is the point of building a custom bike from very exact measurements if it's not optimizing your position? You'll have a very precisely built bike that doesn't fit you any better than an off-the-shelf bike after an adaptation period.

"we are likely talking about a custom bike"

Only about 5% of the population genuinely needs a "custom" fit. For the most part this is a marketing gimmick. Not to knock Guru's fine products, because they certainly do make good bikes, but the "custom fit" necessity is highly questionable for most people.

Let's look at the science of anthropometics. People fall into a bell curve of body sizes and anatomical dimensions. You measure everything from height to every joint to another to determine what's normal varient percentiles.

I'm involved as a sideline with a company that designs/sets up work stations for various office/factory applications. It's roughly only the 2-3% at either end of the population bell curve that genuinely needs custom work stations. For the other 95% modifications and adjustments can be made with standard equipment.

The same principles applies to bike fitting. Most people can be fitted to standard sized frames, assuming the starting dimensions are appropriate, ie correct frame size to begin with.

Are you going to suggest that if I need a "custom" 53.8 frame size then I can't be adjusted to fit a stock 54 cm size?

Consider that the entire CSC team is set up on stock size Cervelos.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing and doesn't have some merit, but I have to completely agree with professor Coggan when he says it's application for fine tuning bike fit is limited.

I guess I fit into that 5% category. I did not go with any intention to buy a Guru. I went in to find out what bike to buy. In fact, I went to this specific shop b/c they carry a very limited inventory and do not try to fit you on a bike in stock (like the last store I went to). After the extensive fit process, there were no stock frames that fit me perfectly (I need a steep seat tube and short top tube for my height). There were several options we could have made fit w/ flipped seat posts, spacers, stems, etc. Did not want to do that, so, I decided on a custom Guru Crono.

I think you are missing the point of the device. It is to speed up the process and help get a better fit. Here is the description:

"In Guru's case, though, all of the adjustments are computer-controlled with precision stepper motors. As such, the rider's position can be continually altered in order to optimize each of the performance parameters (which are displayed in real-time on the computer screen) without even having to dismount between changes.

Once the fit is optimized, the X-Y coordinates of all of the key contact points can be instantly recorded so that the position can then be replicated on the customer's actual bike. If a custom frame is in order, the numbers can even be immediately uploaded to Guru's servers in Montreal which can then send back a proposed custom frame geometry before the rider even gets off of the trainer! The only thing left for Guru to do in order to deliver truly instant gratification is to figure out a way to send the actual frame via email. Expect to see this thing hitting Guru's more serious dealers around February."

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Quote: So what, exactly, is the point of building a custom bike from very exact measurements if it's not optimizing your position? You'll have a very precisely built bike that doesn't fit you any better than an off-the-shelf bike after an adaptation period.
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Not true. Some of us cannot fit very well on many or most stock frames. Before the 2007 models were released, very few bikes had a 78 degree or steeper seat tube in the larger sizes. In addition, larger frames have longer top tubes, that do not fit some of us w/ long legs, shorter torso.

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

I've recently heard $9k.

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Justin in Austin, get it? :)

Cool races:
- Redman
- Desoto American Triple T

Does that $9k include the $6K velotron?

"Some of us cannot fit very well on many or most stock frames"

This is true if you're one of the 5%, then you genuinely will benefit from a custom frame. For somebody like me who has body dimensions falling around the center of the anthropomentic bell curve, a custom frame is a non item.

"Are you going to suggest that if I need a "custom" 53.8 frame size then I can't be adjusted to fit a stock 54 cm size? "

Custom bikes are more involved that just adjusting the seat tube height. What if you want a 57 in the vertical dimension, but a 55 in the horozontal, but still want the 72 degree STA and a reasonable 120mm stem? Now, the number of stock bikes that would actually fit is very limited, so now you are limited on your selection. What if you wanted one that was exceptionally stiff, but vibrated at a frequency that made riding a bit more comfortable over 100 miles? Now, how many stock bikes are left? Now, lengthen the wheel base a little, because you want to do some touring on it - not road racing. How many are left now?

Also, if Cervelo made custom bikes, do you think the riders would still ride stock? Just a question...

You're joking, right? I'm riding my 2003 P3 at 81 degrees STA. I have (relatively) very long legs and a short torso. other than going with an 80mm stem, which is a nonfactor in tribike handling, I was able to achieve a perfect fit on a stock frame. If I had an even shorter torso I could have gone down one frame size, gone with a slightly longer stem, and had a bit more seat post exposed.

Here's a Sizing Cycle that costs about $7,000 less: http://www.calfeedesign.com/sizer.htm

Use whatever fitting system you prefer, it's just a convenient, timesaving tool.



Craig Calfee

Needs more motors...is there a way we can get lasers on it? I like lasers.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Lasers 'R' us. Home Depot laser transit, $45. Used camera tripod from Goodwill, $10. Fanciest plumb bob you'll ever see!

LOL...best "fit" I ever had was at OTC Colorado Springs...they eye balled it...got it dead on. I measured the bike, still to this day many years later is perfect (road, not Tri)...

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

Checking out your site - your bikes are SO freaking cool. A buddy of mine Dr. Ken Stephens has a custom...I ghasp every time I see it.

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What if the Hokey Pokey is what it is all about?

>>Due to points 1 and 2 above, positioning must be an ongoing, iterative process, and no "high tech" equipment can overcome this fact. <<

Very true. Fit is an ongoing thing, but as this fit bike was explained to me, it shows power output as you are riding and you can tweak your position while riding (via remote control and motors controlling seat height, bar height, etc). Thus, you can see if a 3mm raise in saddle height yields more power or less power, or you can see the change in power with a lower or higher saddle to bar drop, etc.

Don't you think there is plateau where the body can only go so far to yield several trips to the fitter?

And how, pray tell, do you control your relative effort, so that you know that any changes in power output aren't simply due to you choosing to work harder/less hard in any position? The answer is that, short of making a maximal effort, you can't...and even if you have the time and are willing to repeatedly torture yourself on multiple occasions (to eliminate fatigue effects), you still haven't accounted for adaptation/accomodation.

Convenient, maybe, but no more effective than doing it the "old school" way of riding, wrenching, riding, wrenching, until you're satisified. And that's the point: all the gee-whiz technology may lend the appearance of greater precision, but it doesn't actually provide it.

Quote: "You're joking, right?"

Nope.

Quote: "I'm riding my 2003 P3 at 81 degrees STA."

That's my point. You are RIDING it at 81 degrees, it was not built that way. Read my prior post, I did not want to force a frame to my dimenions with seat posts, stems, etc. Why not just get the right frame in the first place.

Quote: "I have (relatively) very long legs and a short torso."

My legs actually are very long, not "relatively."

Quote: "Other than going with an 80mm stem, which is a nonfactor in tribike handling, I was able to achieve a perfect fit on a stock frame"

Obviously you did not "achieve a perfet fit on a stock frame" without doing the very things I previously mentioned I did not want to do.

I'm not sure why people want to knock custom fit bikes. I am not advocating them for every person. However, they are appropriate in some cases. It kills me that peole on this site constantly rip bikes posted on this site that have long seat posts, spacers, long stems, riser stems, etc., that were needed for bikes like yours so they could "achieve a perfect fit on a stock frame." Look, if you are able to fit on a stock frame, more power to ya. I don't care. I wanted an Argon 18 or a QR Lucero when I went to the store. The fitter would have put me on either bike and would have "made" it fit, if I wanted. But, the stock dimensions of the frame (alone) did not fit. I had the option for custom. Why the hell would I not do so?

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If there are no dogs in Heaven, then when I die I want to go where they went. - Will Rogers

Emery's Third Coast Triathlon | Tri Wisconsin Triathlon Team | Push Endurance | GLWR

Clearly you've convinced yourself that you need a custom frame and you will not be happy with anything less.