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working on different energy systems in one session
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Hi All,

what is the current Slowtwitch wisdom regarding training of different energy systems in one session?
So far, my understanding was that if I wanted to train my aerobic system I should train in zone 2 for extended periods of time. If I wanted to work on my VO2max I should run intervals but not to try both things in the same session because the body would not go into aerobic adaptation mode if too much lactate accumulated.
Now I talked to a coach recently and he basically recommended me doing workouts like: 1h easy running followed by 40 min max effort or a 90 min run with 5-10x 800 min at 10k pace. Same on the bike where a 2h ride would be spiked with all kinds of intervals....

So, am I missing something?
Thoughts?
U
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Re: working on different energy systems in one session [uw234] [ In reply to ]
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Your coach sounds like an asshole... 60 minute easy straight into 40 minute best? Ugh... That's brutal!

On the flip side.. he knows what he's doing... the only time it wouldn't make sense is if you're doing intervals and THEN trying to hold Zone 2... that would seem pointless to me. So as long as you're doing the intervals at the end or throughout the entire session, all is well.

BTW... this debate could take a vicious turn and turn into best way to use your time, not whether or not these workouts make sense.
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Re: working on different energy systems in one session [uw234] [ In reply to ]
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I'm a purist and maintain dedicated days for specific efforts / systems. However, I say that out of one corner of my mouth and the other says FARTLEK, which is a bit of a hybrid (but runners are screwed up like that and training also needs to keep your racing mind and nous sharp too).

As I type, I'm also telling myself that a hybrid type workout may be OK, as long as you maintain an order of operation - i.e. lower level workouts before the threshold or VO2 max type of stuff. My logic being that once you've crossed into threshold and VO2 type efforts, getting your parameters (i.e. HR) to lower zones is effectively impossible, or would take so long that it reduces the efficacy of the intense activity.

Good luck!
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Re: working on different energy systems in one session [uw234] [ In reply to ]
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uw234 wrote:
Hi All,

what is the current Slowtwitch wisdom regarding training of different energy systems in one session?
So far, my understanding was that if I wanted to train my aerobic system I should train in zone 2 for extended periods of time. If I wanted to work on my VO2max I should run intervals but not to try both things in the same session because the body would not go into aerobic adaptation mode if too much lactate accumulated.
Now I talked to a coach recently and he basically recommended me doing workouts like: 1h easy running followed by 40 min max effort or a 90 min run with 5-10x 800 min at 10k pace. Same on the bike where a 2h ride would be spiked with all kinds of intervals....

So, am I missing something?
Thoughts?
U

My thoughts:

- As an aside neither the 40 min max effort for the 5-10x 8:00 @10K pace are VO2max workouts - maybe you weren't implying that, but just making it clear
- Mixing varying intensities into a longer "zone 2" workout is not going to inhibit aerobic adaptation.
- Mixing a VO2 workout into a longer zone 2 workout might result in a lower-quality VO2 workout.

There's a current branch of forum members here who subscribe to the "polarized" theory of training (look up "Seiler" on this forum). A coach using the "polarized" method might prescribe VO2max as a pure, super high quality standalone workout, e.g. something like 5x4:00 @ mile pace with 2:00 pure rest in between.

That said there's nothing wrong with mixing more intense efforts into long workouts, and there's no reason to suspect that a coach who prescribes workouts like that is doing anything wrong. Nor anything wrong with coaches who don't follow "polarized" methodology. I just used it as a possible rationale for splitting VO2 work into its own workout.
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Re: working on different energy systems in one session [uw234] [ In reply to ]
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Elite runners on down to hobby joggers "mix systems" in workouts all the time. There's nothing wrong and lots correct about doing it.

https://markmcdermott.substack.com
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Re: working on different energy systems in one session [trail] [ In reply to ]
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Hey,
Thanks for your comments. To be honest I am not 100% sure how to define a VO2 max workout...just starting to get into all that.

Speaking of science. Can you say why mixing intensities doesn't hurt aerobic adaptation? To me, the reason not to do it because of lactate buildup sounds plausible. But maybe its wrong and lactate gets eliminated quickly so doesn't matter for the training stimulus?

Maybe a bit of background. I did a lactate threshold test about a year ago. I was told that my zone 2 was around 140 bpm. I then pretty much exclusively ran at 140 bpm and the pace I could hold at that hr dropped substantially (40 sec/km).
Now I want to add in intensity but am not sure about the best way to do it...

U
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Re: working on different energy systems in one session [uw234] [ In reply to ]
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uw234 wrote:
Hi All,

what is the current Slowtwitch wisdom regarding training of different energy systems in one session?
So far, my understanding was that if I wanted to train my aerobic system I should train in zone 2 for extended periods of time. If I wanted to work on my VO2max I should run intervals but not to try both things in the same session because the body would not go into aerobic adaptation mode if too much lactate accumulated.
Now I talked to a coach recently and he basically recommended me doing workouts like: 1h easy running followed by 40 min max effort or a 90 min run with 5-10x 800 min at 10k pace. Same on the bike where a 2h ride would be spiked with all kinds of intervals....

So, am I missing something?
Thoughts?
U

I see no issue with "different energy systems" in the same ride. No matter what, you're using all your "energy systems" on each and every ride.

The question is whether you accumulate enough stress to induce adaptations.
That threshold (how much needs to be accumulated) is dependent on each individual and their fitness parameters.

I talk a lot - Give it a listen: http://www.fasttalklabs.com/category/fast-talk
I also give Training Advice via http://www.ForeverEndurance.com

The above poster has eschewed traditional employment and is currently undertaking the ill-conceived task of launching his own hardgoods company. Statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of anything in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.
http://www.AGNCYINNOVATION.com
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Re: working on different energy systems in one session [uw234] [ In reply to ]
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First, I'm not presenting myself as an expert here to the degree of some here. Though I did coach rowing for 10 years without a bunch of certifications, etc.

That out of the way.

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Can you say why mixing intensities doesn't hurt aerobic adaptation


There's no evidence that I know of that it does. When you periodically ramp up intensity beyond the purely aerobic into threshold/VO2 range your aerobic system is still going full-blast. It's still getting training stress, and it's still going to adapt. The only way I'd speculate that mixing intensities would harm aerobic adaptation is if the effects of the intensity impair the quality and volume of your aerobic training either within the same session (poor quality at the end of a 90-minute run) or across sessions (not being able to complete tomorrow's 90-minute tempo run because you're wiped out from today's mixed-intensity run).


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But maybe its wrong and lactate gets eliminated quickly so doesn't matter for the training stimulus?


You should be able to recovery back to "tempo" after dipping into higher intensities. You mentioned doing intervals at like 10K pace within a long run. That's a difficult workout. But you should be able to recovery back to tempo pace after a mile at 10K pace. That's a difficult workout. The kind you'd want to take a few days to recover from if there are a bunch of those 10K miles. If you can't recover back to tempo, then you're just don't nearly have the fitness to pull it off. But it sounds like you have a good "base" of zone 2 running. You should be able to spend some time in zone 3. Even 4. And then drop back to 2 without a lot of drama.


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Now I want to add in intensity but am not sure about the best way to do it...


I'd say trust the coach. It's OK to question the advice, and get the rationale for it. But there's nothing you're describing that sends up any sort of red flags that they're suggesting something wrong.







Last edited by: trail: Nov 27, 17 18:58
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Re: working on different energy systems in one session [xtrpickels] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
No matter what, you're using all your "energy systems" on each and every ride.

The question is whether you accumulate enough stress to induce adaptations.
That threshold (how much needs to be accumulated) is dependent on each individual and their fitness parameters.


The above poster is a physiologist employed by Pearl Izumi. However, statements are not made on behalf of nor reflective of PI in any manner... unless they're good, then they count.

This.

vo2 max = the pace you can hold for 3-5 min all out, should feel like you want to vomit / lie down / cry from pain. repeat 1200s running are a good example

energy systems are not really binary. you can do a pretty aerobic workout w/o generating a ton of lactic acid (a result of anaerobic metabolism) but there will always be some, just at a level your body can buffer. You can't get to an anaerobic state w/o increasing aerobic metabolism.

maybe she's born with it, maybe it's chlorine
If you're injured and need some sympathy, PM me and I'm very happy to write back.
disclaimer: PhD not MD
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Re: working on different energy systems in one session [uw234] [ In reply to ]
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My coach has done similar sessions. 90min run with last bit best effort, or a 2hr ride with the middle 30-60min best effort. I also do things like 6x3min very hard in the midst of a 2hr ride, or 4x4min best effort in a 2hr ride.

It works!

"Don't you have to go be stupid somewhere else?"..."Not until 4!"
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Re: working on different energy systems in one session [uw234] [ In reply to ]
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I don't do it on the run, because of injury risk (for me). But, I do it on the bike with regularity....specifically in my long ride. I've had VERY good success with mixing in z3/4/5 into the first half of my long rides. Things like:

warmup + 1x60+ @z3 + 1:30 @z2
warmup + 2x30(5:00) @z4 + 1:30 @z2
warmup + 2x(12x:30(:30) @z5) (15) + 1:30 @z2

I like to get the quality in "early" to ensure it is not compromised, particularly the z5 stuff. I don't find it particularly difficult to transition back to z2 even after the z5 stuff. It might take a few minutes to come back down, but HR/RPE all return to normal within a few minutes.

Of course at the point I started mixing the above in, my long ride was already at my desired "max". So, I was looking for ways to induce more stress without incurring more "time". Thus, I was NOT increasing duration significantly during this time. I saw my greatest rate of FTP increase during this phase of my training (~3.4 watts / week), and my FTP peaked at the end of this phase.

During the week when I have less time, I'm more single-minded: warmup + intervals + cooldown = done.
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Re: working on different energy systems in one session [Tom_hampton] [ In reply to ]
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thanks for your comment.

Looks like an interesting program, especially when you were able to improve by so much without putting more time in. I can't increase my volume much, so anything that improves "quality" is welcome.....

The take home message I get is that one should either run/bike a really hard interval of some sort and then come back to Z2 for the majority of the run/bike, as opposed to increasing the intensity of the whole run/ride and say, stay in Z3/4 the whole time.

It is still correct to do 80% Z2 and 20% Z4/5 efforts, or should I experiment with how much Z4/5 efforts I can handle without breaking down? I'm training much less than 10h per week so could probably recover more than others that put in the extra hours.

U
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Re: working on different energy systems in one session [uw234] [ In reply to ]
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You always work different energy systems in every session. It's nearly impossible to isolate one. You will have a focus on something but check other things as well.

Do a typical Vo2max session of 5x5min with equal recovery. Yes, you work your Vo2max but it also affects your treashold etc. The cool thing about training is that there are so many ways to manipulate a workout and the focus will always shift. But never is there something worked on in isolation.

10k - 30:48 / half - 1:06:40
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Re: working on different energy systems in one session [uw234] [ In reply to ]
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Quote:
regarding training of different energy systems in one session

You might want to look into Jan Olbrecht's understanding on how a workout affects the different energy systems. His book the Science of Winning discusses it in detail. It is a book on swimming but the ideas in it are appropriate for any sport. It is available as an ebook on Kindle or as a paper back.

His main interest has been swimming but has worked with several top level triathletes. Here is a link to a discussion of the book. You can read the first chapter of the book at this link.

http://www.lactate.com/bkolbr.html

-------------------

Jerry Cosgrove

Sports Resource Group
http://www.lactate.com
https://twitter.com/@LactatedotCom
Last edited by: Jerryc: Nov 29, 17 8:33
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Re: working on different energy systems in one session [uw234] [ In reply to ]
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uw234 wrote:
Hi All,

what is the current Slowtwitch wisdom regarding training of different energy systems in one session?
So far, my understanding was that if I wanted to train my aerobic system I should train in zone 2 for extended periods of time. If I wanted to work on my VO2max I should run intervals but not to try both things in the same session because the body would not go into aerobic adaptation mode if too much lactate accumulated.
Now I talked to a coach recently and he basically recommended me doing workouts like: 1h easy running followed by 40 min max effort or a 90 min run with 5-10x 800 min at 10k pace. Same on the bike where a 2h ride would be spiked with all kinds of intervals....

So, am I missing something?
Thoughts?
U


As you noted "aerobic system I should train in zone 2 for extended periods of time" 2-3-4 hours

You can do 10-15 vo2max intervals at the begging of the training, when you finish you will be exhausted, your glycogen stores will be depleted (which is good), after 10-15min your lactate will most likley clear, but will you be able to go for another 2-3 hours in endurance zone and burn fat only, if yes great. And another question, what will you be training next day? I guess rest day?

Your coach has full view of your goals and work you are doing I would trust him, is it possible to train both system in the same session? Yes absolutely. Does it make sense? it all depends.
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