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swim predictors for 200/400 y races
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Just trying to get an idea from some of the swimmers on some test sets that could be used to predict 200 y and 400 y freestyle times.. (beside a 200 y race).
I'm a masters swimmer who trains 3-4 times a week, usually with a team but depends on schedule. Have been steadily improving over the past few years and currently I can go 10X100 scy on 1.15 avg 1.04s... and push a 25.5 in workout (SCY).
I sorta feel I need to be able to do 10X100 on 1.10 hold 1.00-1.01s to go 3.40 or so (yards)?

Thanks
Last edited by: dayvic: Jan 26, 18 13:11
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Re: swim predictors for 200/400 y races [dayvic] [ In reply to ]
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Why would you need to do a test set when you can just swim a 200 or 400? Honest question, I know that’s not what you’re looking for but you can do an all out 400 and be recovered for more swimming in the same session.

I understand predictor workouts for a running races and running all out half will nuke you for a few days. But a 200/400 wouldn’t even be a blimp in a workout.
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Re: swim predictors for 200/400 y races [dayvic] [ In reply to ]
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I have found that fast 50's on long rest, from a push, replicate 200 speed. Fast 100's from a push replicate 400-500 speed.

For example

8x50's on 1:00 go as hard as you can. The average should be around 200 speed
4x100s on 2:00, same. Average should be 400 or 500 speed

So if you are trying to go a 2:00 200y freestyle you should be able to hold :30s on that 1:00 interval

My 2cents from experience

Strava
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Re: swim predictors for 200/400 y races [dayvic] [ In reply to ]
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Do 8 100s @ 4:00. 100% effort from a dive start. You need to be sub 55 on all of them.

I don’t see how you could be that fast on 3-4 workouts a week unless you are a recent ex distance swimmer
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Re: swim predictors for 200/400 y races [dayvic] [ In reply to ]
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My benchmark for the 200 free is 16x50 on 20 seconds rest. I try to hold an even pace, all the way through. If I can do that, I figure I can hold that pace for the last three 50s of a 200. Then I figure the first 50 will ~3 seconds faster. For example, if I can go 16x50 at < :33.00 on a :53 interval, I have confidence I can go a <2:09 200. (I use a SportCount finger stopwatch to get accurate touch times in the validation set.). If I don't have my wrist watch to program an exact :53 second interval, I'll go :55 off the pace clock, but I'll also look to get to 18 reps to confirm confidence that the pace will translate to racing. I have found a very high correlation from this set to race performance.


For 500y free, I've found the sustainable pace of 16x75 on 20 seconds rest to be pretty predictive of an overall average race pace.

Can only speculate on 400 yards since I've never raced that, but I'd venture an educated guess that if you could do 16 x 75 @ <:42.00 on a 1:00 interval, you could do a 400 in 3:40.

"They're made of latex, not nitroglycerin"
Last edited by: gary p: Jan 26, 18 14:16
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Re: swim predictors for 200/400 y races [Gonefishin5555] [ In reply to ]
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for a 200 or 400 predictor?

I didn't start swimming seriously until early 20s, was able to swim with and then on the team in university (was not a good team), also did tri at a reasonable level but was always injured (back then was able to go 58 sec for 100 scm on 30ish km/wk in the water and was a 34 min/10k). Definitely no club background etc.

Started swimming masters again during degree #3 (5 years ago), and over the past 3 years now that I'm working (abit crazy hours - 50-60h normal, with forays into the 90s), have had constant improvement with a strong focus on consistency (no real breaks per year, just changes in focus), but I attribute huge improvement to getting to the weight room 1-2/wk and really focusing on yoga/stretching/thoracic mobility and what thats allowed me to do with my stroke. Wall angels I think have alone probably helped with 1-2 sec/100.
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Re: swim predictors for 200/400 y races [dayvic] [ In reply to ]
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Next practice, do a 200 yd time trial. That will give you your 200 time and you can use that to estimate your 400 time. The sets suggested are all good but all of them are going to take way longer than just swimming the 200.

If you want to add some race pressure, get the coach to come up with his own estimate of what he thinks you can do and if you don't beat it, the whole group will have to do the next set 100% butterfly. Swim coaches have a long history of putting the collective fate of the entire team in hands of one man/one swim to liven things up. Some of the most legendary swims ever have been one man against the clock in practice with everyone else on the side pulling for him in the hopes of getting to go home early or otherwise be spared some horrible fate.
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Re: swim predictors for 200/400 y races [dayvic] [ In reply to ]
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I sorta feel I need to be able to do 10X100 on 1.10 hold 1.00-1.01s to go 3.40 or so (yards)? //

I think if that is the best you do on that set you are not anywhere near 3;40 for 400yds. That time is a ;55 per 100 average, so after dive perhaps 56's. I would say you would need to be 56/57 for those 10x100's to have any shot at all at a 3;40. Even then it would probably be more like a 3;45+..


For the 200 I like the set of 50's from a push going all out on longish rest. 10,12, 15, doesn't much matter really, you will be getting an average that should be close to your last 100 in the 200.


And it appears that you have done some good amount of swimming, no one does close to those times as an AOS without some old bank time in the H20 as a kid...




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Re: swim predictors for 200/400 y races [dayvic] [ In reply to ]
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thats the longer distance. Do a 50s set from a push if you want a 200 predictor. Those are impressive times for your experience. I do not think you are in the 3:40 range yet as you need to be able to do repeat 100s well under a minute as Monty said
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Re: swim predictors for 200/400 y races [monty] [ In reply to ]
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sorry, made a mistake. Race SCM but twice a week I swim yards which is where I did the 10X10, want to go 2:00 and 4:15 for meters and was converting it back to yards and doubled the 1:50 (which is roughly 2:00) for some reason - my bad.
Agree 3:40 for 400 fr is 4:00 m which is wicked fast for 12-15k a week, I wish I was that talented!
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Re: swim predictors for 200/400 y races [dayvic] [ In reply to ]
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dayvic wrote:
sorry, made a mistake. Race SCM but twice a week I swim yards which is where I did the 10X10, want to go 2:00 and 4:15 for meters and was converting it back to yards and doubled the 1:50 (which is roughly 2:00) for some reason - my bad.
Agree 3:40 for 400 fr is 4:00 m which is wicked fast for 12-15k a week, I wish I was that talented!


I can't think of any really accurate predictors that I've done. Probably the closest is doing broken 200 in practice, 15 secs between each 50, But even yhen I don't recall doing my actual 200 time.

IMO, Best way is to know what you can do in something like that broken 200 and correlate that with a race 200 performance. If you have the 200 time then the 400 performance is pretty easy to predict (but again, not exactly)

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Re: swim predictors for 200/400 y races [Grant.Reuter] [ In reply to ]
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Grant.Reuter wrote:
Why would you need to do a test set when you can just swim a 200 or 400?

I'm with this guy. Just sprint 200y all out after a warmup. Then complete your swim. Maybe expect a shade quicker in a race because of a diving start or the extra push from swimming with others.
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Re: swim predictors for 200/400 y races [dayvic] [ In reply to ]
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Do a broken 200. 100 from a dive, rest 20 seconds. Then a 50, rest 10 seconds. Then a 50 to the finish. Get your overall time and subtract out 30 seconds. It should be fairly close to what you can go in a meet, rested and shaved.

For the 400, you could do a 200 from a dive, rest 20 seconds. Then a 100, rest 15 seconds. Then a 100 to the finish. Get overall time and subtract out 35 seconds.

Also, you do understand there isn't a 400 yard freestyle event? In yards, it'll be a 500. I'm assuming you are talking all freestyle and not a 400IM.

Hope this helps.

Tim

http://www.magnoliamasters.com
http://www.snappingtortuga.com
http://www.swimeasyspeed.com
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Re: swim predictors for 200/400 y races [dado0583] [ In reply to ]
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dado0583 wrote:
Grant.Reuter wrote:
Why would you need to do a test set when you can just swim a 200 or 400?

I'm with this guy. Just sprint 200y all out after a warmup. Then complete your swim. Maybe expect a shade quicker in a race because of a diving start or the extra push from swimming with others.

That wouldn't even be close.

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Re: swim predictors for 200/400 y races [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
That wouldn't even be close.

Can you elaborate? Just observing the thread and I am not a competitive swimmer, so I am curious as to why a 200 TT in practice wouldn't even be close.
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Re: swim predictors for 200/400 y races [TennesseeJed] [ In reply to ]
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One data point:

Swam a 200 yesterday at a meet. Tried to see if I could get close to it today from a push-off. Nope: 10 seconds off.

Something about being in a meet+the dive = not close.
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Re: swim predictors for 200/400 y races [dayvic] [ In reply to ]
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Not trying to be snarky or anything, but why bother?

Just swim 200 hard in a work out and see where you're at. Do the same with the 400.

For the rest of the posters here, I'm kind of curious how much of a fall off you see between a time you're doing on a 400 and your times on a 2000 yard swim
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Re: swim predictors for 200/400 y races [TennesseeJed] [ In reply to ]
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TennesseeJed wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
That wouldn't even be close.

Can you elaborate? Just observing the thread and I am not a competitive swimmer, so I am curious as to why a 200 TT in practice wouldn't even be close.

Good swimmers (and the op is in that category) can typically race a good bit faster than they can push in practice. Adrenaline and the psych boost of a meet vs practice.

A couple of years ago I went 2:04, I think the absolute fastest I went in practice in the months leading up to that meet was a 2:17. That was a well rested TT swim from a push.

I doubt I could have gone 2:04 on Tim's broken 200 test either. IMO there isn't a really accurate test set for the 200 that I've ever heard of . You just do it in a meet.

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Re: swim predictors for 200/400 y races [dayvic] [ In reply to ]
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Do 20x50 on 1:00 holding your best average.

That average per 50 will be a good indicator for your last 150 of the 200. Subtract a couple of seconds to include starting from the blocks to estimate your first 50.
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Re: swim predictors for 200/400 y races [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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JasoninHalifax wrote:
TennesseeJed wrote:
JasoninHalifax wrote:
That wouldn't even be close.


Can you elaborate? Just observing the thread and I am not a competitive swimmer, so I am curious as to why a 200 TT in practice wouldn't even be close.


Good swimmers (and the op is in that category) can typically race a good bit faster than they can push in practice. Adrenaline and the psych boost of a meet vs practice.

A couple of years ago I went 2:04, I think the absolute fastest I went in practice in the months leading up to that meet was a 2:17. That was a well rested TT swim from a push.

I doubt I could have gone 2:04 on Tim's broken 200 test either. IMO there isn't a really accurate test set for the 200 that I've ever heard of . You just do it in a meet.

I assume psychology played a major role, but just curious on your take... How much do you think going from the block saves versus off the wall? I have long wondered.

I want to do a masters race just to see what I can do, but I don't see making a habit of doing them as it would require driving around the state. Given that, paying for a masters membership, paying for the race admission, and then paying per event, my coach added it up to about $100 for one race if you only do one. That was a bit steep for me to find out how fast I could swim a 200 in a race environment. Maybe my coach needs to do one of those punish the class if I don't hit a certain time swims for me instead, haha.
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Re: swim predictors for 200/400 y races [TennesseeJed] [ In reply to ]
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Depending on how good your start is, about 1.5 to 2 secs

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Re: swim predictors for 200/400 y races [TennesseeJed] [ In reply to ]
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Up here, masters costs $45 for the federation and about $35 per meet. I usually do 3 or 4 events, but I really get 2 "good " swims at local meets. Not enough recovery time. Nationals is about $100

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Re: swim predictors for 200/400 y races [davejustdave] [ In reply to ]
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doing a 200 in workout and race are totally different for me, thats why I'm looking for a test set - the psychology, bit of rest and adrenalin make you go way faster..
I've just never found a great one - I think 20X50 on 50 or 60 is reasonable, but having done that previously it still didn't come close to predicting my 200.. I was 4-5 sec faster then what it would have predicted.
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Re: swim predictors for 200/400 y races [davejustdave] [ In reply to ]
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davejustdave wrote:

For the rest of the posters here, I'm kind of curious how much of a fall off you see between a time you're doing on a 400 and your times on a 2000 yard swim


MOP data point: 1:20 for the 500 vs 1:28 for 2k.
Last edited by: Per: Jan 29, 18 18:44
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Re: swim predictors for 200/400 y races [Per] [ In reply to ]
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Resurrecting this thread to query the base on what fall-off in times and percentage good swimmers see in 100, 200, 400, 800 and 1500 LCM free events. For example, my best times (in races) is 100 in 1:08, 200 in 2:33, 400 in 5:25, 800 in 11:22 and 1500 in 21:38. For the 200 through 1500, that works out to 1:16/100 (200), 1:21/100 (400), 1:25/100 (800) and 1:26.5 (1500). My percentage fall-off from 100 to 1500 is 22%. Does this sound about right? I have only looked at myself, so n=1. I don't think it matters, but I am a 61 yo male. I will go through the USMS database and pull some other swimmers times as well.
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