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question for the fast runners out there
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I primarily race and train for 70.3s. I've always been a swimmer my whole life and some hardcore trainer workouts have improved my riding ability over the past couple of years. My problem is that I'm significantly limited by my inability to run fast. Right now I'm about a 1:52 for 13.1 miles. My goal for the summer is to go under 1:30. So I've put away the bike and the pool for the next 10-12 weeks to focus on running. As I was out running today I was thinking about my step/stride length and cadence. My main question is whether there is an optimal step/stride length for runners based on leg length and height and cadence? My cadence currently averages about 82 and I'm 5'10 with a longer torso and 31" inseam. Are there other running form components that will help me in my quest to run faster that you might recommend? Thanks for your help.
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Re: question for the fast runners out there [Calvinbal6] [ In reply to ]
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There are many things that make up efficient running form. Cadence is simply one of the things. Your best bet is to find someone who can analyze your gait and give you some quality feedback on where you might find some more efficiency. I personally do it all over Southern Calfiornia with some proven results. I can also do it through video and phone/skype conversations. Your biggest challenge will not be getting faster. Your biggest challenge will be doing so without getting injured. As soon as you up the miles or up the intensity any flaws in your gait become magnified. Most of those flaws if caught early and addressed can be overcome. If you don't catch them though everyone on this forum can tell you what happens. Small strains become big strains and once you have those they are hard to cure.

Use me or find someone else but make sure you have someone watch you run and ask you you lot's of questions. As you know in swimming there is free speed in good form. That is true in running too!

Dave Jewell
Free Run Speed

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Re: question for the fast runners out there [Calvinbal6] [ In reply to ]
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Running is my weakest leg, so I might be talking crap, but I would have thought knocking off 23mins from your HM time in 10 weeks is highly unlikely? It took me 3 months to go from 1.40 to 1.32, but then I was also swimming and biking.


Also your cadence seems pretty low, 85 - 90 seems to be what most people are hitting. Perhaps get a run coach and a program? He can advise on technique.
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Re: question for the fast runners out there [Calvinbal6] [ In reply to ]
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"Right now I'm about a 1:52 for 13.1 miles. My goal for the summer is to go under 1:30."

Rather than having a goal of a certain time, you should have a goal of training like a runner for an extended period (10 weeks is not that long) and seeing where it takes you.
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Re: question for the fast runners out there [Calvinbal6] [ In reply to ]
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I would not worry about cadence too much. Running benefits from mileage, and some combination of slower aerobic workouts combined with a tempo run and a longer run all within the weekly training cycle. If your goal is to get faster at 70.3s, build up to 35 miles per week, with 1 longer 10-12 mile run, a tempo run of 6-7 miles and 2-3 easy runs of 5-6 miles.

But I gotta tell you that I did not go sub 1:30 in a 70.3 until I BQ'ed a few times. A sub 1:30 in an open half marathon is certainly doable with a little bit of talent, a good size engine and consistent mileage on a weekly basis. A sub 1:30 off the bike is a very different beast.

Next races on the schedule: none at the moment
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Re: question for the fast runners out there [Calvinbal6] [ In reply to ]
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Calvinbal6 wrote:
I primarily race and train for 70.3s. I've always been a swimmer my whole life and some hardcore trainer workouts have improved my riding ability over the past couple of years. My problem is that I'm significantly limited by my inability to run fast. Right now I'm about a 1:52 for 13.1 miles. My goal for the summer is to go under 1:30. So I've put away the bike and the pool for the next 10-12 weeks to focus on running. As I was out running today I was thinking about my step/stride length and cadence. My main question is whether there is an optimal step/stride length for runners based on leg length and height and cadence? My cadence currently averages about 82 and I'm 5'10 with a longer torso and 31" inseam. Are there other running form components that will help me in my quest to run faster that you might recommend? Thanks for your help.


May I ask what is your weight? At 5'10" the ideal weight for most is to be slightly under weight near 145lbs. The range is 145lbs to 165lbs. If you are closer to 165lbs or a Clydsdale at 175lbs running your fastest 13.1 miler may be near impossible. Most of your elite runners are going to be slightly under weight for their height. Most will have legs that are proportionally 3x bigger than their torso.

A few things that can help lower your race times is,

1. If you have a nuetral gait where racing flats. For every 1oz you can shave off your shoe weight, you will gain 2 seconds per mile.

2. Learn how to midstrike when running. When you midstrike, you will have better running economy, you will use less energy, and you will run faster with higher turnover.

3. Doing intervals of 200m, 400m and 800m and doing all of those, not just one like 800m but you must do the 200,400,800m once every 2 weeks. Unless you do intervals your race times will never go down. Tempo runs are good and have their place but nowhere near as good as intervals.

4. For half marathon training, your longest run should be 17 miles and a slow buildup. Insert some tempo runs inside those miles.

5. Lead yourself out. You should try to reduce your total fat until you get to like 5% body fat if you can. Having fat requires oxygen so it is less for your running muscles.

6. Don't sign up for half marathons where temp is over 50 degrees. For every 5 degrees over 50 you will slow down 10 seconds per mile.

the other thing to keep in mind, how fast you can run any distance will be largely determined by genetics. So try as you may, some may never be able to do a sub 1:30 half marathon. Some people are really good at the short 1500m or the 5K distance because they have a lot of fast twitch fibers but will be bad at the longer stuff like full marathons. Some will really be good at marathons because they have a lot of slow twitch fibers, but not so fast at short 5K races. My best distance is 5K race, my second best distance is half marathon as I did 1:28:00 for my Half PR but I was 145lbs. The full marathon has never been my distance and I have bonked at every one. At 164lbs there is no way I could run 1:28. 5K may be a different story because I have seen some pretty big bulky guys run that fast but at half marathons, generally you will have to be like super thin.
Last edited by: marathonrunner: Jul 21, 17 20:19
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Re: question for the fast runners out there [Calvinbal6] [ In reply to ]
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I'm gonna simplify it a lot more than the above (and likely be right).

Run more. A lot more and more regularly than you are now. 30+mpw for HIM sounds right for starters, but if you can take a dedicated run block to crank it to 50, you'll see a lot of benefit.

Running at these BOMOP to MOP AG speeds is all about volume and consistency. You don't need special speed workouts, stride drills, or anything else save run more miles.
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Re: question for the fast runners out there [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
I'm gonna simplify it a lot more than the above (and likely be right).

Run more. A lot more and more regularly than you are now. 30+mpw for HIM sounds right for starters, but if you can take a dedicated run block to crank it to 50, you'll see a lot of benefit.

Running at these BOMOP to MOP AG speeds is all about volume and consistency. You don't need special speed workouts, stride drills, or anything else save run more miles.


I am sorry but you are totally wrong. Talk to any running coach or for that matter, get any good book on running and the 3 key workouts for marathons are the following And elite runners also do the same training as non elites, but at a much higher level and much more of it.

1. Interval Track workouts (this will bring your race times down all across the board any distance. Cardio fitness will improve aerobic capacity, leg strength, and will activate the slow and fast twitch muscle fibers.

2. Tempo Runs: this is the bodies ability to use lactic acid to use as fuel and allow the body to run through tired legs. It also pushes that wall further, thus enabling the runner to hold a hard pace

3. Long Run- This allows the body to drain its reserves of glycogyn to teach the brain to store more of it so you can push the wall further. Everybody has enough glycogen to run 20 miles before hitting the wall but a way to push that wall further forward is to teach the brain to store more glycogen. How do you do that? On your long run, you don't eat dinner the night before full of carbs and you don't eat carbs for breakfast. You want to low carb your trianing so you teach brain to store more of it.

Anyway for other distances like 5K, again you are totally wrong to think you don't need special training. 5K specialists focuses on more intervals per week then say a marathon runner. They also run shorter distances like 6 miles but they are more intense. Anyway I can go on and on but there is no such thing as you just run run run.

The only thing I will agree with, yes it is true if you run at least 50 miles a week(30 miles is not enough for most marathon training programs), and you run the 50 miles slow, yes you can finish a marathon but if you want to PR and run it to your bodies best of its abilities, then you will need to do intervals, tempo runs, and long runs. There is no substitute for that
Last edited by: marathonrunner: Jul 21, 17 20:30
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Re: question for the fast runners out there [marathonrunner] [ In reply to ]
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marathonrunner wrote:
Calvinbal6 wrote:
I primarily race and train for 70.3s. I've always been a swimmer my whole life and some hardcore trainer workouts have improved my riding ability over the past couple of years. My problem is that I'm significantly limited by my inability to run fast. Right now I'm about a 1:52 for 13.1 miles. My goal for the summer is to go under 1:30. So I've put away the bike and the pool for the next 10-12 weeks to focus on running. As I was out running today I was thinking about my step/stride length and cadence. My main question is whether there is an optimal step/stride length for runners based on leg length and height and cadence? My cadence currently averages about 82 and I'm 5'10 with a longer torso and 31" inseam. Are there other running form components that will help me in my quest to run faster that you might recommend? Thanks for your help.


May I ask what is your weight? At 5'10" the ideal weight for most is to be slightly under weight near 145lbs. The range is 145lbs to 165lbs. If you are closer to 165lbs or a Clydsdale at 175lbs running your fastest 13.1 miler may be near impossible. Most of your elite runners are going to be slightly under weight for their height. Most will have legs that are proportionally 3x bigger than their torso.

A few things that can help lower your race times is,

1. If you have a nuetral gait where racing flats. For every 1oz you can shave off your shoe weight, you will gain 2 seconds per mile.

2. Learn how to midstrike when running. When you midstrike, you will have better running economy, you will use less energy, and you will run faster with higher turnover.

3. Doing intervals of 200m, 400m and 800m and doing all of those, not just one like 800m but you must do the 200,400,800m once every 2 weeks. Unless you do intervals your race times will never go down. Tempo runs are good and have their place but nowhere near as good as intervals.

4. For half marathon training, your longest run should be 17 miles and a slow buildup. Insert some tempo runs inside those miles.

5. Lead yourself out. You should try to reduce your total fat until you get to like 5% body fat if you can. Having fat requires oxygen so it is less for your running muscles.

6. Don't sign up for half marathons where temp is over 50 degrees. For every 5 degrees over 50 you will slow down 10 seconds per mile.

the other thing to keep in mind, how fast you can run any distance will be largely determined by genetics. So try as you may, some may never be able to do a sub 1:30 half marathon. Some people are really good at the short 1500m or the 5K distance because they have a lot of fast twitch fibers but will be bad at the longer stuff like full marathons. Some will really be good at marathons because they have a lot of slow twitch fibers, but not so fast at short 5K races. My best distance is 5K race, my second best distance is half marathon as I did 1:28:00 for my Half PR but I was 145lbs. The full marathon has never been my distance and I have bonked at every one. At 164lbs there is no way I could run 1:28. 5K may be a different story because I have seen some pretty big bulky guys run that fast but at half marathons, generally you will have to be like super thin.

hmm i broke 1:30 at 175 6'0" . now i am 157 and slow thanks to injuries of being under weight..
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Re: question for the fast runners out there [marathonrunner] [ In reply to ]
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I stand by my post. Op is not training for a marathon and is also not close to maxxing their run ability at a 1:50 hm.

Just run more.

Fwiw - I run marathons neat 7:00 per mile and just came off a block averaging 75mpw for 5 months so I'm well aware of what you are referring to. It's legit but op likely needs simple volume first.
Last edited by: lightheir: Jul 21, 17 20:34
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Re: question for the fast runners out there [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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synthetic wrote:
marathonrunner wrote:
Calvinbal6 wrote:
I primarily race and train for 70.3s. I've always been a swimmer my whole life and some hardcore trainer workouts have improved my riding ability over the past couple of years. My problem is that I'm significantly limited by my inability to run fast. Right now I'm about a 1:52 for 13.1 miles. My goal for the summer is to go under 1:30. So I've put away the bike and the pool for the next 10-12 weeks to focus on running. As I was out running today I was thinking about my step/stride length and cadence. My main question is whether there is an optimal step/stride length for runners based on leg length and height and cadence? My cadence currently averages about 82 and I'm 5'10 with a longer torso and 31" inseam. Are there other running form components that will help me in my quest to run faster that you might recommend? Thanks for your help.


May I ask what is your weight? At 5'10" the ideal weight for most is to be slightly under weight near 145lbs. The range is 145lbs to 165lbs. If you are closer to 165lbs or a Clydsdale at 175lbs running your fastest 13.1 miler may be near impossible. Most of your elite runners are going to be slightly under weight for their height. Most will have legs that are proportionally 3x bigger than their torso.

A few things that can help lower your race times is,

1. If you have a nuetral gait where racing flats. For every 1oz you can shave off your shoe weight, you will gain 2 seconds per mile.

2. Learn how to midstrike when running. When you midstrike, you will have better running economy, you will use less energy, and you will run faster with higher turnover.

3. Doing intervals of 200m, 400m and 800m and doing all of those, not just one like 800m but you must do the 200,400,800m once every 2 weeks. Unless you do intervals your race times will never go down. Tempo runs are good and have their place but nowhere near as good as intervals.

4. For half marathon training, your longest run should be 17 miles and a slow buildup. Insert some tempo runs inside those miles.

5. Lead yourself out. You should try to reduce your total fat until you get to like 5% body fat if you can. Having fat requires oxygen so it is less for your running muscles.

6. Don't sign up for half marathons where temp is over 50 degrees. For every 5 degrees over 50 you will slow down 10 seconds per mile.

the other thing to keep in mind, how fast you can run any distance will be largely determined by genetics. So try as you may, some may never be able to do a sub 1:30 half marathon. Some people are really good at the short 1500m or the 5K distance because they have a lot of fast twitch fibers but will be bad at the longer stuff like full marathons. Some will really be good at marathons because they have a lot of slow twitch fibers, but not so fast at short 5K races. My best distance is 5K race, my second best distance is half marathon as I did 1:28:00 for my Half PR but I was 145lbs. The full marathon has never been my distance and I have bonked at every one. At 164lbs there is no way I could run 1:28. 5K may be a different story because I have seen some pretty big bulky guys run that fast but at half marathons, generally you will have to be like super thin.


hmm i broke 1:30 at 175 6'0" . now i am 157 and slow thanks to injuries of being under weight..

Being underweight is not a bad thing as long as you are not losing muscle. If you don't have enough body fat, then yes you have a tendency to get more injuries. I/e.. Ryan Hall, he has been riddled with many injuries and much of it was due to over training than any other factor. I have no idea how many miles you are running but most runners who are obsessed with race times, tend to over train and are under weight. Having a little fat and being a bit overweight can provide more protection against injuries.

Also being 175lbs may not put your over weight because it depends on height. The taller you are, the range will be heavier for what is considered over and under weight. But again, if you look at all the top elite runners and even semi pro runners, most are under weight and very thin. And yes a lot of them do suffer many injuries as a result of too much running. There are no absolutes in running and you will always find someone who does very little training but because of genetics, can make running sub3 marathons seem so easy. I know one guy who was fat and overweight, he one day just decided to train for a few weeks, was still fat and overweight but did a 2:43 on his first marathon. So there are some who have natural talent.
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Re: question for the fast runners out there [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
I stand by my post. Op is not training for a marathon and is also not close to maxxing their run ability at a 1:50 hm.

Just run more.

Fwiw - I run marathons neat 7:00 per mile and just came off a block averaging 75mpw for 5 months so I'm well aware of what you are referring to. It's legit but op likely needs simple volume first.


I think the OP did mention he was trying to get under 1:30 for a half marathon if I am not mistaken. So by him making that statement, if all he does is run a 9:00 pace and runs no more than 30 miles a weeks as you suggest, if he running 5 miles a day? If that is the case he is not prepared. Or is he running 15 miles 2x a week to make 30? If he is just jogging and slugging along at 9:00 pace I don't see how he can do a 6:52 pace to be around 1:30. That is why I was saying if he is looking for a specific time goal for a half marathon he has to do the long run(16miles), intervals and tempo runs but intervals are far more important then even tempo runs for this distance even though he will be running near threshold (tempo run pace). They did a study where experts took 5 runners where all they did was track workout intervals and another 5 runners who only did tempo runs. The group that only did intervals had faster and faster race times where tempo runners didnt improve at all.

But anyway, I think too many people including myself we get obsessed with race times. I can no longer run like I used to and today I just run for fun and I run slowly.
Last edited by: marathonrunner: Jul 21, 17 20:53
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Re: question for the fast runners out there [marathonrunner] [ In reply to ]
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marathonrunner wrote:
lightheir wrote:
I stand by my post. Op is not training for a marathon and is also not close to maxxing their run ability at a 1:50 hm.

Just run more.

Fwiw - I run marathons neat 7:00 per mile and just came off a block averaging 75mpw for 5 months so I'm well aware of what you are referring to. It's legit but op likely needs simple volume first.


I think the OP did mention he was trying to get under 1:30 for a half marathon if I am not mistaken. So by him making that statement, if all he does is run a 9:00 pace and runs no more than 30 miles a weeks as you suggest, if he running 5 miles a day? If that is the case he is not prepared. Or is he running 15 miles 2x a week to make 30? If he is just jogging and slugging along at 9:00 pace I don't see how he can do a 6:52 pace to be around 1:30. That is why I was saying if he is looking for a specific time goal for a half marathon he has to do the long run(16miles), intervals and tempo runs but intervals are far more important then even tempo runs for this distance even though he will be running near threshold (tempo run pace). They did a study where experts took 5 runners where all they did was track workout intervals and another 5 runners who only did tempo runs. The group that only did intervals had faster and faster race times where tempo runners didnt improve at all.

But anyway, I think too many people including myself we get obsessed with race times. I can no longer run like I used to and today I just run for fun and I run slowly.


Currently can run low to mid 2:40s for a full marathon. Do most of my 70ish mpw at 8-9min/mile, nice and easy. Rare speedwork. Volume works.
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Re: question for the fast runners out there [solitude] [ In reply to ]
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solitude wrote:
marathonrunner wrote:
lightheir wrote:
I stand by my post. Op is not training for a marathon and is also not close to maxxing their run ability at a 1:50 hm.

Just run more.

Fwiw - I run marathons neat 7:00 per mile and just came off a block averaging 75mpw for 5 months so I'm well aware of what you are referring to. It's legit but op likely needs simple volume first.


I think the OP did mention he was trying to get under 1:30 for a half marathon if I am not mistaken. So by him making that statement, if all he does is run a 9:00 pace and runs no more than 30 miles a weeks as you suggest, if he running 5 miles a day? If that is the case he is not prepared. Or is he running 15 miles 2x a week to make 30? If he is just jogging and slugging along at 9:00 pace I don't see how he can do a 6:52 pace to be around 1:30. That is why I was saying if he is looking for a specific time goal for a half marathon he has to do the long run(16miles), intervals and tempo runs but intervals are far more important then even tempo runs for this distance even though he will be running near threshold (tempo run pace). They did a study where experts took 5 runners where all they did was track workout intervals and another 5 runners who only did tempo runs. The group that only did intervals had faster and faster race times where tempo runners didnt improve at all.

But anyway, I think too many people including myself we get obsessed with race times. I can no longer run like I used to and today I just run for fun and I run slowly.



Currently can run low to mid 2:40s for a full marathon. Do most of my 70ish mpw at 8-9min/mile, nice and easy. Rare speedwork. Volume works.


I have already mentioned it in my comments but how fast you can run is largely dependent on genetics. Again, I know a guy who was fat and out of shape, he literally only trained a few weeks and did a marathon in 2:43 with barely any training.

But I will say this, had you done speed work, you could have probably been doing 2:30 for a full marathon time. I know in my own case, I am not a talented runner but I was able to do pretty decent for my limited talents because of me doing intervals, tempo and long runs. Lets put it this way, your top elite runners like Ryan Hall and Kenyan's are all doing tempo, intervals, and long runs. So if what you were saying is true, that all you have to do is run slow, then none of the elite runners would be wasting their time doing intervals, tempo and long runs. So basically if you have a very high vo2 max to begin with and plenty of slow twitch fibers then yes doing a 2:43 can be a walk in the park and so easy with minimul training. So while you may find people who can do reasonable by running slow all the time, that doesn't mean it works for the majority.
Last edited by: marathonrunner: Jul 21, 17 21:08
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Re: question for the fast runners out there [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
I stand by my post. Op is not training for a marathon and is also not close to maxxing their run ability at a 1:50 hm.

Just run more.

Fwiw - I run marathons neat 7:00 per mile and just came off a block averaging 75mpw for 5 months so I'm well aware of what you are referring to. It's legit but op likely needs simple volume first.

I agree. I was kind of forced into a 80/20 style running because of injury, running almost all easy before I even heard about 80/20 running. I ended up running lots, but virtually all easy, it didn't feel good, I'd feel frustrated I couldn't push the pace, but because of multiple calf tears, I had to take it easy. I was doing 45 miles/week, not huge mileage, but more than I used to prior to injury, which would have been 30 miles, which included intervals, tempo runs etc a lot of fast paced stuff. Whereas post injury, I was doing nothing faster than 5.30min/km. I did a sprint tri as I was recovering and took a minute off my 5km run, down to 20.30, nothing to write home about, but I was pleasantly surprised and also confused. How can you get quicker when training so slow? That's when I started reading about 80/20. And I think for the OP he will improve lots by simply running more. Perhaps when he gets to the pointy end of things he needs to have a more specific programme, but for now, just rum.

Note - I have 2 mates that just broke 3 hours for the first time for the marathon, both had very different training programmes, one 80/20, the other a lot more faster stuff. So there is more than one way to skin a cat.
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Re: question for the fast runners out there [lightheir] [ In reply to ]
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lightheir wrote:
I stand by my post. Op is not training for a marathon and is also not close to maxxing their run ability at a 1:50 hm.

Just run more.

Fwiw - I run marathons neat 7:00 per mile and just came off a block averaging 75mpw for 5 months so I'm well aware of what you are referring to. It's legit but op likely needs simple volume first.
+1.
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Re: question for the fast runners out there [synthetic] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for all the thoughts and advice. I'm a physical therapist so hopefully I will be able to ward off injuries as the mpw volume increases. Maybe my goal are too lofty but I thought if I can see huge gains in riding from doing structured workouts I can therefore expect some big gains in running from my structured workouts. I weight 159 right now. And it seems I lost bike power when I dip below 158, so I'm pretty comfortable where I am.

I've read about the 80/20 principle and it seems to make sense. Does everyone determine zones through average pace? Use grade adjusted paces? Anyone training with a power meter?
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Re: question for the fast runners out there [marathonrunner] [ In reply to ]
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Remember that I'm also assuming that the OP is doing 30mpw on balanced tri trainig, which means I'm assuming he's biking at least equal or more of running, so I'm not saying he's just running 30mpw - the leg beatdown is a lot more when you're riding a lot on top.


If he were on a pure running block, as I mentioned, 50mpw is a good target to shoot for, but get there gradually - follow that +10% max rule of increasing volume per week.
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Re: question for the fast runners out there [Calvinbal6] [ In reply to ]
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Lots of good advice here, albeit some way overcooked for where you are now and what you want to do. The easiest route for pacing workouts is through a recent race result of a controlled time trial (usually on a track) which will be your proxy for zone.

FWIW, if you are mixing in some intervals don't worry about cadence, your body will figure it out. Don't overthink it too much; volume is the main driver, speed and tempo will maximize. Most folks never realize the full effect of volume and get caught up in a rough cycle. Take your time and the times will come. Good Luck!
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Re: question for the fast runners out there [Calvinbal6] [ In reply to ]
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Calvinbal6 wrote:
Thanks for all the thoughts and advice. I'm a physical therapist so hopefully I will be able to ward off injuries as the mpw volume increases. Maybe my goal are too lofty but I thought if I can see huge gains in riding from doing structured workouts I can therefore expect some big gains in running from my structured workouts. I weight 159 right now. And it seems I lost bike power when I dip below 158, so I'm pretty comfortable where I am.

I've read about the 80/20 principle and it seems to make sense. Does everyone determine zones through average pace? Use grade adjusted paces? Anyone training with a power meter?


Hi Calvinbal6,
I am in exactly the same place as you except I can't swim either lol! I worked on my run fitness all last winter in hopes of improving my overall 70.3 times which is TBD this fall. I am 47 and have been doing tri's for 5 years and I am also a Chiro and Sports physician. In both my personal and professional opinion the advice Marathonrunner gave is spot on. If you have been doing this awhile and want to get faster it is all about pace and intensity and recovery time. A lot of people on here preach run more run more and I have tried that for years and two things, I have never been able to manage running 6 days a week without being wiped out or injured, second I never got any faster by simply running more volume.

Personally I would look at Joe Friel's How to run a Fast Marathon he gives target times and training paces you should use to achieve them. I also use McMillan and Jack Daniels Vdot to get pace info especially for shorter intervals. I did a lot of mile repeats and 800m repeats outside and 200/400m repeats on the treadmill over the winter and it made a reallybig difference in my run pace. Makes treadmill run a lot less dreadful too! Another big one is knocking down the end of the long runs.

Personally, I struggle with my weight at 5'7" and 163# and I am down 15 since my PR last fall at 1:48 and have only a guess at where my open HM time is currently. I feel with a little more work I could manage a 7:30 pace for an open half but have switched focus to swim and bike now that summer is here and I have a 70.3 in the fall I want to do well at. Good luck on a 1:30 that is really fast I would like to hear how it works out for you.

Marathonrunner, I love that 50 degree stat, I never saw that before, I am definitely a cold weather athlete living in Ohio.
Last edited by: mlyonsdc: Jul 22, 17 4:58
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Re: question for the fast runners out there [Calvinbal6] [ In reply to ]
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Calvinbal6 wrote:
I primarily race and train for 70.3s. I've always been a swimmer my whole life and some hardcore trainer workouts have improved my riding ability over the past couple of years. My problem is that I'm significantly limited by my inability to run fast. Right now I'm about a 1:52 for 13.1 miles. My goal for the summer is to go under 1:30. So I've put away the bike and the pool for the next 10-12 weeks to focus on running. As I was out running today I was thinking about my step/stride length and cadence. My main question is whether there is an optimal step/stride length for runners based on leg length and height and cadence? My cadence currently averages about 82 and I'm 5'10 with a longer torso and 31" inseam. Are there other running form components that will help me in my quest to run faster that you might recommend? Thanks for your help.

My qualifications are that i marathon in the 2:30s.

You just need to run a lot. Like every day. Double digits distance as often as possible. Strides 2-3 times a week. Tempo efforts of various structure once a week. Do some 800-1200 repetitions at 10k effort every now and again.

But mostly lots of miles.

Don't sweat the small stuff like cadence and shoes and all that. Stop thinking like an anal retentive trigeek and think like a runner.

https://markmcdermott.substack.com
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Re: question for the fast runners out there [marklemcd] [ In reply to ]
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marklemcd wrote:
Calvinbal6 wrote:
I primarily race and train for 70.3s. I've always been a swimmer my whole life and some hardcore trainer workouts have improved my riding ability over the past couple of years. My problem is that I'm significantly limited by my inability to run fast. Right now I'm about a 1:52 for 13.1 miles. My goal for the summer is to go under 1:30. So I've put away the bike and the pool for the next 10-12 weeks to focus on running. As I was out running today I was thinking about my step/stride length and cadence. My main question is whether there is an optimal step/stride length for runners based on leg length and height and cadence? My cadence currently averages about 82 and I'm 5'10 with a longer torso and 31" inseam. Are there other running form components that will help me in my quest to run faster that you might recommend? Thanks for your help.


My qualifications are that i marathon in the 2:30s.

You just need to run a lot. Like every day. Double digits distance as often as possible. Strides 2-3 times a week. Tempo efforts of various structure once a week. Do some 800-1200 repetitions at 10k effort every now and again.

But mostly lots of miles.

Don't sweat the small stuff like cadence and shoes and all that. Stop thinking like an anal retentive trigeek and think like a runner.

Knowing about a persons past injuries, and especially age is imo critical before suggesting someone do something

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: question for the fast runners out there [marathonrunner] [ In reply to ]
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marathonrunner wrote:
lightheir wrote:
I'm gonna simplify it a lot more than the above (and likely be right).

Run more. A lot more and more regularly than you are now. 30+mpw for HIM sounds right for starters, but if you can take a dedicated run block to crank it to 50, you'll see a lot of benefit.

Running at these BOMOP to MOP AG speeds is all about volume and consistency. You don't need special speed workouts, stride drills, or anything else save run more miles.


I am sorry but you are totally wrong. Talk to any running coach or for that matter, get any good book on running and the 3 key workouts for marathons are the following And elite runners also do the same training as non elites, but at a much higher level and much more of it.

1. Interval Track workouts (this will bring your race times down all across the board any distance. Cardio fitness will improve aerobic capacity, leg strength, and will activate the slow and fast twitch muscle fibers.

2. Tempo Runs: this is the bodies ability to use lactic acid to use as fuel and allow the body to run through tired legs. It also pushes that wall further, thus enabling the runner to hold a hard pace

3. Long Run- This allows the body to drain its reserves of glycogyn to teach the brain to store more of it so you can push the wall further. Everybody has enough glycogen to run 20 miles before hitting the wall but a way to push that wall further forward is to teach the brain to store more glycogen. How do you do that? On your long run, you don't eat dinner the night before full of carbs and you don't eat carbs for breakfast. You want to low carb your trianing so you teach brain to store more of it.

Anyway for other distances like 5K, again you are totally wrong to think you don't need special training. 5K specialists focuses on more intervals per week then say a marathon runner. They also run shorter distances like 6 miles but they are more intense. Anyway I can go on and on but there is no such thing as you just run run run.

The only thing I will agree with, yes it is true if you run at least 50 miles a week(30 miles is not enough for most marathon training programs), and you run the 50 miles slow, yes you can finish a marathon but if you want to PR and run it to your bodies best of its abilities, then you will need to do intervals, tempo runs, and long runs. There is no substitute for that
Sorry but you're wrong. OP will benefit more from increased mileage than harder workouts. The way to do it is first increase mileage and then start doing workouts. Also the 5k is not a fast twitch event.

Terrible Tuesday’s Triathlon
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Re: question for the fast runners out there [oscaro] [ In reply to ]
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oscaro wrote:
marathonrunner wrote:
lightheir wrote:
I'm gonna simplify it a lot more than the above (and likely be right).

Run more. A lot more and more regularly than you are now. 30+mpw for HIM sounds right for starters, but if you can take a dedicated run block to crank it to 50, you'll see a lot of benefit.

Running at these BOMOP to MOP AG speeds is all about volume and consistency. You don't need special speed workouts, stride drills, or anything else save run more miles.


I am sorry but you are totally wrong. Talk to any running coach or for that matter, get any good book on running and the 3 key workouts for marathons are the following And elite runners also do the same training as non elites, but at a much higher level and much more of it.

1. Interval Track workouts (this will bring your race times down all across the board any distance. Cardio fitness will improve aerobic capacity, leg strength, and will activate the slow and fast twitch muscle fibers.

2. Tempo Runs: this is the bodies ability to use lactic acid to use as fuel and allow the body to run through tired legs. It also pushes that wall further, thus enabling the runner to hold a hard pace

3. Long Run- This allows the body to drain its reserves of glycogyn to teach the brain to store more of it so you can push the wall further. Everybody has enough glycogen to run 20 miles before hitting the wall but a way to push that wall further forward is to teach the brain to store more glycogen. How do you do that? On your long run, you don't eat dinner the night before full of carbs and you don't eat carbs for breakfast. You want to low carb your trianing so you teach brain to store more of it.

Anyway for other distances like 5K, again you are totally wrong to think you don't need special training. 5K specialists focuses on more intervals per week then say a marathon runner. They also run shorter distances like 6 miles but they are more intense. Anyway I can go on and on but there is no such thing as you just run run run.

The only thing I will agree with, yes it is true if you run at least 50 miles a week(30 miles is not enough for most marathon training programs), and you run the 50 miles slow, yes you can finish a marathon but if you want to PR and run it to your bodies best of its abilities, then you will need to do intervals, tempo runs, and long runs. There is no substitute for that

Sorry but you're wrong. OP will benefit more from increased mileage than harder workouts. The way to do it is first increase mileage and then start doing workouts. Also the 5k is not a fast twitch event.

Interesting. Never done any of this. Guess this is why I am so slow

Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

Boom Nutrition code 19F4Y3 $5 off 24 pack box | Bionic Runner | PowerCranks | Velotron | Spruzzamist

Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep
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Re: question for the fast runners out there [h2ofun] [ In reply to ]
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h2ofun wrote:
oscaro wrote:
marathonrunner wrote:
lightheir wrote:
I'm gonna simplify it a lot more than the above (and likely be right).

Run more. A lot more and more regularly than you are now. 30+mpw for HIM sounds right for starters, but if you can take a dedicated run block to crank it to 50, you'll see a lot of benefit.

Running at these BOMOP to MOP AG speeds is all about volume and consistency. You don't need special speed workouts, stride drills, or anything else save run more miles.


I am sorry but you are totally wrong. Talk to any running coach or for that matter, get any good book on running and the 3 key workouts for marathons are the following And elite runners also do the same training as non elites, but at a much higher level and much more of it.

1. Interval Track workouts (this will bring your race times down all across the board any distance. Cardio fitness will improve aerobic capacity, leg strength, and will activate the slow and fast twitch muscle fibers.

2. Tempo Runs: this is the bodies ability to use lactic acid to use as fuel and allow the body to run through tired legs. It also pushes that wall further, thus enabling the runner to hold a hard pace

3. Long Run- This allows the body to drain its reserves of glycogyn to teach the brain to store more of it so you can push the wall further. Everybody has enough glycogen to run 20 miles before hitting the wall but a way to push that wall further forward is to teach the brain to store more glycogen. How do you do that? On your long run, you don't eat dinner the night before full of carbs and you don't eat carbs for breakfast. You want to low carb your trianing so you teach brain to store more of it.

Anyway for other distances like 5K, again you are totally wrong to think you don't need special training. 5K specialists focuses on more intervals per week then say a marathon runner. They also run shorter distances like 6 miles but they are more intense. Anyway I can go on and on but there is no such thing as you just run run run.

The only thing I will agree with, yes it is true if you run at least 50 miles a week(30 miles is not enough for most marathon training programs), and you run the 50 miles slow, yes you can finish a marathon but if you want to PR and run it to your bodies best of its abilities, then you will need to do intervals, tempo runs, and long runs. There is no substitute for that

Sorry but you're wrong. OP will benefit more from increased mileage than harder workouts. The way to do it is first increase mileage and then start doing workouts. Also the 5k is not a fast twitch event.

Interesting. Never done any of this. Guess this is why I am so slow

Which quote are you replying to? Don't you agree with consistent LSD workouts and not structured speed work?
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