I'm not sure about your specific question, but from here it seems like it's the strong bikers that want this (and understandably so). My question would be why should the strong bikers get even more help when the strong swimmers don't get any?

In no draft triathlon you are not allowed to draft on the bike. With the current rules you can...a little bit.
While I feel for the swimmers, drafting had never been prohibited during the swim.

I do see where you are coming from and I agree. I am sure Andy Potts would love to move to a non-drafting swim. In all honesty, in all of the big races I have done (Racine 70.3 2014, 70.3 Worlds 2014, Ironman Texas 2015), I have swam completely solo, so moving to a non-drafting swim would be fine with me. But, this is completely unrealistic, and nearly impossible to police.

I don't think the swim is nearly as big of an issue as the bike. I don't think Andy Potts has ever decided to swim significantly slower because he feels guys behind him aren't pulling their weight. On the bike on the other hand, you can definitely see this situation arising. The real issue arises when you have people who are confident that they can outrun those in the front. There is absolutely no incentive for them to exert any more effort than the bare minimum to stay in contact. That's how things currently stand, and that is fine. I can't speak for Cody, but from my perspective, I don't think this is in the spirit of the sport. I believe the founding principal of Ironman triathlon is pushing oneself to the limit, and finding out what is possible. I think a larger draft zone would help to eliminate these games, and return things to a test of one's own limits and ability.

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I don't feel that only the strong bikers are advocating for this. Virtually every pro who raced the Challenge series with the 20m draft zone agreed it was a move in the right direction.

This would be a complete non-issue if they would just make races draft legal.

Wrong.

Under the WTC/IM rules "drafting" is a defined term


For pro's the "draft zone" is defined as 12 meters and for age groupers it's 10 meters.

If you're a pro and sitting on 12 meters by definition you are NOT drafting.

This has been a long time thing - I have been talking about it for years along with you know what on here. Personally I would like to see much stricter enforcement with the following ideas:

- Lead vehicles must be completely up the road out of view of the cyclist
- Media motos can spend a max of 10 seconds and must circle around to all pros. They cannot stay fixated on just a couple of athletes, and no showing of favortism/interest only towards the athlete of a particular country.
- Refs issue much more frequently warnings to riders indicating they are starting the stop watch and they must pass or get a drafting penalty
- The time to pass is extended much further so if you are trying to pass you don't have to put in these incredible surges to close the 12 meters in 25 seconds but you must continue to make further progress
- You can stay in the left lane up to 2 minutes after passing before moving back right

However I think the easy thing to do is just to extend to 20 meters.

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That's really a nit. There is still a legal draft advantage regardless of the "definition" with regards to the rules.

I wasn't aware that the OP was talking about WTC/IM

It doesn't really matter. The principle is the same under the various rule formats whether it's WTC, USAT, ITU, etc. There are differences though on the size of the draft zone. Regardless, if you are not within the defined draft zone of the rules governing the race you're in, you're NOT drafting irrespective of any advantage you may be obtaining.

I see the pros saying great things about the 20m rule at Challenge events, but I'm curious how that affects passing and slotting in? I imagine it's tough as is to pass the entire string of 10+ riders each spaced out 12m at once. With 20m, will there now be 10+ riders all spaced 20m apart, making it even harder to pass over a longer distance? Or will that 20m rule break up those trains so there is not more than a few riders clumped together at any point, even in deep/championship fields?

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http://trainingwheelsrequired.wordpress.com
@KellyNCollier

As a related aside, has the "slotting in" rule for pros always been the same i.e. you must pass the whole continuous "train" of legally spaced riders ahead of you? For some reason I thought there had been a change in the rule within the past few years.

Anyone know for certain?

Thanks,

Hugh

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Genetics load the gun, lifestyle pulls the trigger.

This. While I'm advocating for a 20 meter draft zone for pros at all Ironman/Challenge races, by-the-book enforcement of the current rules would be a great start. I have witnessed referees being far too lenient in terms of letting minor infractions slide. The most common issue I've seen is athletes coming just inside the draft zone (i.e. 8-10 m back instead of 12 m) and then back out without completing a pass. This inevitably occurs if you sit right at 12 m in a pack that will stretch and compress like an accordion due to hills, wind and surges. To avoid this, you need to maintain an extra buffer (say 15 m), keep your head up and brake/coast preemptively before the cyclist ahead slows. Interpretation and enforcement of the rules must have ZERO subjectivity when people's livelihoods are on the line.

The lead vehicle and moto issue that is Thomas' pet peeve is also a problem that significantly impacts some pro races. If you see a performance that is too good to be true or an oddly low power file from an athlete who spent significant time at the front of the race, vehicle assistance is the likely culprit. As Thomas said, the lead vehicle needs to be pretty much out of sight to not create a draft.

As for the fairness of a 20 meter draft zone, I agree with Lionel that it would better align with the spirit of long course triathlon. We already have draft-legal events with entirely different dynamics. I think most people would agree that long course is intended to be a purer test of individual ability, in which tactics don't dominate the dynamics of the race. Many people incorrectly assume that drafting isn't a factor in long course. But with a 12 m draft zone, it really does have an impact at most races (courses with prevailing crosswinds like Kona may be an exception).

Furthermore, I think that a 20 meter draft zone would produce a more exciting and unpredictable pro race. Front packs will only grow as long course becomes deeper in the years to come. Do we want 70.3 and Ironman races to unfold like ITU with a selection in the swim, a predictable pack ride, then a podium decided by the run?

Finally, Rapp has raised the point that it's not quite as simple as implementing a 20 meter draft zone. There are considerations like when in the race it comes into effect after the swim (may not be realistic over the first 5-10 km with deep fields leading to close spacing out of the water), passing and drop back time allowance, potentially allowing a smaller zone on climbs, etc.

If the triathlon world weren't already occupied with other worthy causes, I'd be tempted to launch a social media campaign to bring awareness to the issue. #20meters4pros? It'll be interesting to hear opinions in this thread.

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Let's get technology to work in our favor. I can see a small RFID chip in the race numbers mounted to the bikes (Nike did this recently for timing chips @ Toronto 15k Female run). Then have these "tag" each other when inside the specified distance (12, 15, 20M). Then when the bikes cross the line at the Bike dismount all the "tag" items are automatically reviewed for each athlete and any infractions are added for offending parties. I don't see this being very difficult to create but I do see it being too expensive to deploy.

Apply the rules of passing within x amount of seconds and officials won't be tasked with this and rather than having an athlete stop and recover a bit just add the time automatically to their results. The only downside I see is a guy racing for what he thinks is a higher spot than he's actually in due to the time additions.

It's a dream anyway, this will never happen.

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"Train so you have no regrets @ the finish line"

Have you ever been an official at a race trying to make these calls? They are all JUDGMENT calls. So are you going to be happy if you lose a race because you get one of these
crazy drafting calls or position fouls? The only folks I have ever heard go nuts on the drafting stuff are the strong cyclists. I believe our triathlons are NOT triathlons, but in most
cases, just a bike race. You can draft on the swim. But the spirit of the sport. What does that mean? Yep, just an opinion.

Allow drafting. Weak bikers still get dropped. But it sure now makes the swim really mean something.

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

"I'm curious how that affects passing and slotting in?"

i don't understand the problem with slotting in. i don't see why pros need to pass the entire train. to me, that's nowhere in the rules.

if i ride up to the back of a pack, riding legally, the minute my front wheel edges in front of the front wheel of the guy i'm passing, he's obliged to drop back. literally to stop pedaling if he needs to. that's the rule, unless there was a rule change i don't know about.

therefore, the only way i need to keep going and pass the rider in front of him is if that pro is riding illegally to start with. or, thta he's literally riding exactly the proper minimum legal distance, to the inch.

so, what rule obliges me to ride past the entire group, and to the front?

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Ah, see, I was getting that idea from this recent article:

http://www.slowtwitch.com/...olderbaum__5144.html

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@KellyNCollier

so, what rule obliges me to ride past the entire group, and to the front? //

Well theoretically, and often practically, if every guy is right at 12 meters, when you pass you have entered into the guy in fronts zone, so have to continue on, and on, and on. You don't just get to pass the guy sitting at 12m, cause once you do, you are now 11 meters from the guy he was riding behind.

Dan, lets say you have a bunch of folks lined up at 12 meters exactly each spaced out. So I pass the person in front of me, so now yep they need to drop back, but I have now also
gotten into the draft box of the next person. If I do not pass them, this person that just passed should get a drafting call. Etc. etc. etc.

So, how do you deal with this?

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

If you talk to the Kona they are not judgment calls. They use the reflectors at Kona as an objective tool and sometimes pros ask about anything they can use on the various race courses. But less, you can always tell the guys who try to move 12m to 7m. It is not judgment IMO. In fact, I could probably produce a list of the most cautious riders who give more than the stated amount versus riders who always seem to test the boundaries.

As to only strong cyclists complaining, well how many athletes actually come on here and discuss it. Or how many do you actually know personally that will discuss it. I can assure you there are many many pro's who don't chime in for various issues. And then some of those people are perfectly fine leaving it up to a foot race.

As to allowing drafting. Weak bikers will not get dropped. But regardless it all comes to the fact that we allow drafting on the swim, we are training for it, we prepare for it, it is what it is. The problem with biking is that we don't allow it, however some abide by the rules or try to abide by the rules, while others have a blatant or subtle disregard that gives them a competitive advantage.

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Whether an athlete littered intentionally or accidentally may be a judgment call. I fail to see how subjectivity enters into the equation when it comes to drafting calls. The rules are quantitative and unequivocal. 12 meters. 25 seconds. Ok, an official can't eyeball what 11.99 meters looks like or count precisely to 25.5 seconds, so the athlete is given the benefit of the doubt in those cases. But 10 meters and 30 seconds should be easy to recognize.

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right. but rather than looking at it theoretically, which is, how close could you ride to the guy in front of you, i would look at it as, is that guy right at 12 meters? exactly? if he's at 13, then you don't have to slot. and it's not up to the guy you're passing to decide that. it's up to you, the passer. the only decision the guy you passed has to make is to either obey the rules and drop back, or defy the rules and not drop back.

you might well say that this disadvantages the guy getting passed. here he is, minding his own business, riding at 13 meters, and now he has to drop back, because the guy passing him has decided not to pass the whole group, rather to "inhabit" that guy's niche in line.

that's the price you pay for getting the benefit of sucking in.

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Dan Empfield
aka Slowman

Ya, but i have watched many of these long trains, and you don't just get to pass a guy by an inch and then slot in. You have to have some momentum to make your pass, and when you do it, you are likely to drift forward another bike length or two, or three. Unless you make that pass and take your foot off the gas immediately, or even brake to find that tiny little hole that may or may not be there.

There really is no way to know what the guys up front are doing from your position at the back. You can see the guy in front and have a good guestimate, but the the 20 guys dangled out in front are going to be a blur to what you can actually see. Right now if you start a pass from the back, you better be prepared to make the entire pass, because it may very well be your obligation once you get in the middle of it. And you won't really know til you get there, so best to just be ready for it, or ready for your 4 minute rest at that next tent.