1. Maybe you could have run a bit faster with a slower bike but it's a triathlon it's the sum of the parts that matters

2. It depends on the actual numbers. If you push really hard and get a 60 minute bike split but then have to walk to a 55 min run split then it wouldn't have been worth it but if maybe you pushed a bit less and had a 62 minute split followed by a 40 minute run then obviously that would be much better. The bike is the longest part of the day and you can cut tons of time off of your overall time by being fast there but with that said if you push a bit past your limit and have to slow down dramatically or even walk on the run then you can negate all of that very easily. The key is to find a balance between the two so that you can have your best overall time.

You should bike hard enough that you will be up to 2 min slower on your run than you could have while rested and racing the 10K by itself.

I know that is subjective but it takes a little practice. For me I just bike as hard as I can on a sprint and oly and run well. I have friends that need to be nearer 90% for them to have a good run.

So with a little practice I'm sure you'll get it right.

jaretj

I think it also depends on the course. I've had a lot of trouble finding the right pacing for oly distance but I've found that I've got to be a whole lot more careful on rolling and hilly courses than flatter ones. I'm a good climber and can out bike a lot of my competitors on a hilly course, but even gearing down to hold a high cadence up hills (90-100 rpm), I still find that my legs are toast when I get off the bike and try to run. A flat course, I basically go as hard as I can for as long as I can. You really need more race experience to figure out what works for you.

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@KellyNCollier

I think folks have mentioned 80% of FTP on the bike for 70.3 races? Is there a general % FTP rule for Olympic distance? Or do most folks think of it similar to a sprint race.....short enough that its just full speed ahead? :)

Ride 95 to 98% of FTP

With the start up, turns and dismount time it normally comes out to 91-92%

Edit: If you are nearer 1:10 or 1:20 you should go a little easier.

jaretj

Anything over about 20 seconds, requires element of pacing. It's very easy to go out too fast in an Olympic, that's for sure. The pace depends on your overall time predicted. But for lets say a 1:05 bike split, you might target 90-93% depending on if it's an "A" race and how strong of a runner you are. You really need fresh legs to ride much above 90% for 60 minutes after swimming hard... at least that's my experience. I feel like I fought pretty hard for 89% at my last race with the leg fatigue I was carrying from a hard training block. I wanted to ride at 93-95%, but that was wishful thinking.

But it's a hard effort. Targeting 10% higher than your last 70.3 might not be a bad idea.

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Above comments are good but just in reply to this question:

"Also, is the time savings on the bike by pushing harder more than the time savings of having a slightly better run?"

I believe people incorrectly do the accounting on this--you have to keep in mind that in cycling wind resistance is your biggest energy consumer whereas in running it is more biomechanical efficiency. So, with that in mind you reach a point of diminishing return on the bike. If you are looking at 85% of stand alone effort on one leg and 95% on the other I think you will do better on overall time pushing the run. The extra effort on the bike buys you less time savings because of the relationship between input power and drag. So if you bike 10% harder you may go 3-4% faster. Whereas in running 10% harder is close to 10% faster. While the bike is longer I think generally you would do better to hold back a little and then hammer the back half of the run if things are too easy.

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Oh yeah!

I think it is important to remember that many people who get in to triathlon come from a running background. Doing comparatively better on the bike than the run could very likely mean you are simply a better cyclist and a worse runner than other trained runners. Worry about time differences and not place differences to determine if the effort saved by slowing down on the bike will allow you run fast enough to lose more time on the run than you gained by easing up on the bike.

It depends a lot on training load.

The bike is diminishing returns but time is still time. Run also isn't 1:1. You mechanical efficiency, while it varies individually, will drop as well as heat management. You'll burn more "overhead". Plus you realistically can't run a whole lot faster than threshold pace. So the most you can gain running is probably 1 minute. So if I give up 2 minutes cycling, I'm not getting 2 minutes back running.

I would argue instead, that if you bike just below threshold and run right at or just below threshold, that you paced it perfectly. If you cannot run near threshold after biking at 90% for 60 minutes, then your training load overall is lacking.

Look at some scenarios, lets say on a given course, I'm well rested and can ride a 58:00 at lets say 93%. I can then get off and run a 36:00 flat. Right at threshold pace. So now I back off to 90% and ride a 59:30 (~10W difference). Can I run a 35:30? Uhh...ya right, think again. Honestly, I just don't think I can go 95 or 96% after a hard swim. So for me at least, it's a non issue.

I think the scenario most run into is more like this.... They ride a conservative 1:08 instead of 1:06, and can run 40:00 instead of blowing up and running 45:00. So 2 minutes saved them 5. If your prone to blowing up, that a little difference that sub optimal pacing. I would also bet that they below up because they tried to run a 40:xx when they only had the fitness for a 42:xx.

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Interesting you your time example. I am one that bikes hard, but will not or cannot leave in on the course, and do ride around a 1:08. Then I try for the 40:xx while I see some that have had a faster bike split,
but I say nice race to them as I am passing on the run. Just need to find the best balance to get to the finish like the fastest, which is all that matters.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

Here is my 2 cents. Am a 57 old guy, so this impacts my thoughts.

I just did the Donner Olympic race yesterday. Lots of very steep up hills, and then down hills. One very important piece in my race strategy for short course racing is RPM on the bike.
So I run a compact 50/34 11/32 setup I was spinning up the 8% grade at 80 plus RPM passing lots of folks just grinding away. I tried to keep my RPM around 90 to 100 for the bike course.
I just about crashed with bike wobble going down donner last year so I went down super slow which really caused me to have a much slower bike time than last year.

But since I had tried to save my legs as much as possible, I was able to jump off the bike and set a PR for the run. Ended up with the 3rd fastest run split.
Shortening my crank arms also seems to have helped since I have set new PR runs times for basically all the races I have done this year which getting faster at my age
is fun since some are now saying quietly I must be taking drugs.

(And for the ones who have followed the transition threads, yep my run in my bike shoes is a terrible strategy, it just gave me the fastest T2 split time of everyone in the race. :o) )

Just offering there are many things you need to look at in order to have the fastest time to the finish. Split times do not mean much, unless you are old like me then this is all we
can shoot for. :o)

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

great post

I think I agree with your general point if I understand it--everyone is individual, some can bike hard and still run etc. But I think your math is wrong--if you go 58:00 at 93% FTP, you will go more like 58:40 at 90% FTP. Assume v1/v2 = (p1/p2)^0.37 and check (I did this estimate in my head). I think the 0.37 exponent is the back of the envelope relationship I have seen. The point I am making is diminishing return on the bike due to nonlinear power/velocity relationship that is close to cubic. I'm sure the relationship is much less than cubic for power/run speed.

I would be surprised if you could not run 30 seconds faster if you backed off on the bike pacing though. I can run an open 10k around 37 min but my best tri run is 41. Perhaps I don't have as much time to train as you do.

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Oh yeah!

MY last course was fairly hilly, so I had some decision making to do. I had a plan for power, but 5 miles in, it was clear my legs were not going to deliver. So I rode as evenly and as strong as I could, but it was well below threshold, so ultimately there wasn;t too much risk to my run. Though similarly, the run course was even hillier comparatively, and they still refused to deliver. What was interesting was that it was humid, where I tend ot perform poorly... but because it was so hilly, on average everyone performed poorly in those conditions. So I still had a "fast" run split even though it was slow. In that example, going slower on the bike, tactically would have been a mistake as it would have placed me within sight of 2nd place and he might have pushed to reel me in. Instead, I arrive in T2 with a 3' gap and the race was over at that point.

So consider this.... if you ride fast enough, you can have the luxury of running conservatively.

To whomever said, you can always push harder late in the race. Ummm ya... have you tried that? IF it worked, I contend that you left a lot of time on the table the 1st 1/2 of the run.

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Yea, you might be right. You just have to adjust to have you feel on that day, conditions, etc. One always needs to have multiple race strategies ready race day. Ones A plan very seldom works.
I might have pushed harder on the bike if I knew how slow I was, but in my AG, no reason to burn it all up. And since I have another race Sunday, (do not like racing back to back but ... ).
I needed to save some for that race also. The series championship is on the line, worth 300 bucks, so hoping to win it again.

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Dave Campbell | Facebook | @DaveECampbell | h2ofun@h2ofun.net

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Lions don't lose sleep worrying about the sheep

This is pretty much where I've ended up, mostly by trial & error, with my run times being 2-4 minutes slower than a free-standing effort.

I'm not a strong runner and when I have tried to pace the bike too much, then I lost more time l than I could make up on the run.

For me the key to improvement over the past couple of years has been working on my bike fitness, which in turn carries over to the run. Not so much that I'm running faster, but I don't slow down as much (if that makes sense...).

Mark

So how do you guys pace the swim of the Olympic distance? Do you try to save any energy during the swim? or just swim all out? Try to negative split by perceived effort? Ideally you would find someone slightly faster than you to draft off of, but that seems to rarely happen for me.

I'd like to say that I try and swim at a slow pace to conserve energy for the ride but I'd be lying. I just swim slowly and try to enjoy it! This got me to thinking yesterday at Donner, as I was climbing the 3.5 mile, 1200' ascent which begins 50 yards out of T1, as I passed a dozen or so people. Is it better to be a middle of the pack anchor in the water and then pass a lot of people on the bike or is it better to be the fastest swimmer and get passed? (Tongue and cheek of course. It be great to be both a fast swimmer and fast rider!). I also believe that the fast swimmers who can also climb had a huge advantage on a course like Donner. They were probably at Sugar Bowl by the time I was out of the water. Great race though.

As fast and evenly as you can. That is, if you are racing. You have about a minute break before you get on the bike.

jaretj

Speak for yourself... I'm running hard, and get about a 5 second break to put my helmet and glasses on. transitions are definitely not a rest. Heck, I run faster in transition that I do on the run. I've made up for some mediocre swims that way before. I actually have grown to have a weird love/hate relationship with long transition areas. In the really long ones, you could make up over 30 seconds. How much harder do you have to swim in a Olympic or 70.3 to make up 30 seconds? Quite a bit.

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I not a real fast swimmer, so I usually swim hard enough to stay on the back of a chase group and get clear of the main group. If that fails, I find a solid rhythm and just base my pace off my breathing rate. In the 2nd half, I battle arm fatigue and focus on maintaining good form. You go hard the whole time.

In more competitive fields like an elite waves... you go out just a little below redline to find the fastest feet you can and try like hell to swim straight.

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I was joking about the minute break

I think too often now people go by numbers instead of feel. You train hundreds of hours and should have an idea of what you can do. May set peaks if you are feeling really good, say if your FTP is 275 and that feels easy then go up a little until you get to that redline level.

It also depends on the field, I am doing a race this weekend where the swims are typically slow, bike hard, and run is on par. I have good swim endurance but not top speed, good bike, and better run so if the field plans out like it has I may sit on the heals of the bikers if they pass me and see if they want to hang on for the run.

I always try to play to my strengths, the OP is a seasoned runner and if he wants to be competitive I would suggest doing something like my plan. If the race is not an A race then you may try racing your own race and to see what you can do. Use the olympic as a speed workout