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how to improve 5K TTs?
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I've qualified for the Florida Senior Games in the 5K and 10K time trial events, but I'm really weak in the 5K.

Just did one this morning and my time really left me disappointed. Based on how I do in longer events I really ought to be better than I am.

Can anyone point me to a good training program to improve my 5K time?
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Re: how to improve 5K TTs? [TTV] [ In reply to ]
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More 3k, 5k, and 10k paced intervals?

10k paced intervals are my go-to for most anything. Do a few of those with some 400m repeats at 3k speed tacked on to the end and ready to rock the 5k.
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Re: how to improve 5K TTs? [TTV] [ In reply to ]
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I'm new to the Senior Olympics as weill and qualified f(by the skin of my teeth) for the National event in Minneapolis next summer. My meager experience taught me that a very thorough warmup is really important since the race is so short. That can be compromised if one is waiting in some kind of a line for the start. It's nice if your warmup area is adjacent to the start.
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Re: how to improve 5K TTs? [TTV] [ In reply to ]
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A lot of ~4 min vo2 Max intervals.
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Re: how to improve 5K TTs? [jajichan] [ In reply to ]
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jajichan wrote:
More 3k, 5k, and 10k paced intervals?

10k paced intervals are my go-to for most anything. Do a few of those with some 400m repeats at 3k speed tacked on to the end and ready to rock the 5k.

+1.

I'd add some regular overspeed work, such as strides/wind sprints and hill sprints. A lot of people who are proficient in longer distances (sheepishly raises hand...) find that they develop a gait that is less amenable to the short stuff (often called "sitting in the bucket"). Overspeed work helps correct this.

Fartlek type runs aren't a terrible idea either. 8-10k at tempo or half marathon pace with a few 400m reps at 5k pace should get you used to holding the speed when you are tired without killing you for the next workout.
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Re: how to improve 5K TTs? [SpaceKitty] [ In reply to ]
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SpaceKitty wrote:
jajichan wrote:
More 3k, 5k, and 10k paced intervals?

10k paced intervals are my go-to for most anything. Do a few of those with some 400m repeats at 3k speed tacked on to the end and ready to rock the 5k.

+1.

I'd add some regular overspeed work, such as strides/wind sprints and hill sprints. A lot of people who are proficient in longer distances (sheepishly raises hand...) find that they develop a gait that is less amenable to the short stuff (often called "sitting in the bucket"). Overspeed work helps correct this.

Fartlek type runs aren't a terrible idea either. 8-10k at tempo or half marathon pace with a few 400m reps at 5k pace should get you used to holding the speed when you are tired without killing you for the next workout.
when you say half pace is that current or goal pace for upcoming race?
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Re: how to improve 5K TTs? [mrbeachbum2] [ In reply to ]
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mrbeachbum2 wrote:
when you say half pace is that current or goal pace for upcoming race?


Everything at current pace always is my vote.
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Re: how to improve 5K TTs? [mrbeachbum2] [ In reply to ]
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mrbeachbum2 wrote:
SpaceKitty wrote:
jajichan wrote:
More 3k, 5k, and 10k paced intervals?


10k paced intervals are my go-to for most anything. Do a few of those with some 400m repeats at 3k speed tacked on to the end and ready to rock the 5k.


+1.

I'd add some regular overspeed work, such as strides/wind sprints and hill sprints. A lot of people who are proficient in longer distances (sheepishly raises hand...) find that they develop a gait that is less amenable to the short stuff (often called "sitting in the bucket"). Overspeed work helps correct this.

Fartlek type runs aren't a terrible idea either. 8-10k at tempo or half marathon pace with a few 400m reps at 5k pace should get you used to holding the speed when you are tired without killing you for the next workout.
when you say half pace is that current or goal pace for upcoming race?


Good question.

Steve Magnus at the Science of Running had a good post on this topic. He calls training to run X distance at Y goal pace "specific endurance". Bear in mind that this post is aimed at the coaches of high school athletes, so there's a strong "let's not burn out a kid who only has a year of endurance training under their belt by hammering them" element. The principles are the same, but if you've been doing this endurance silliness for a while, you might be able to transition more quickly, or skip elements of base building.

http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2008/10/hs-trainingspecific-endurance.html
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Re: how to improve 5K TTs? [SpaceKitty] [ In reply to ]
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SpaceKitty wrote:
mrbeachbum2 wrote:
SpaceKitty wrote:
jajichan wrote:
More 3k, 5k, and 10k paced intervals?


10k paced intervals are my go-to for most anything. Do a few of those with some 400m repeats at 3k speed tacked on to the end and ready to rock the 5k.


+1.

I'd add some regular overspeed work, such as strides/wind sprints and hill sprints. A lot of people who are proficient in longer distances (sheepishly raises hand...) find that they develop a gait that is less amenable to the short stuff (often called "sitting in the bucket"). Overspeed work helps correct this.

Fartlek type runs aren't a terrible idea either. 8-10k at tempo or half marathon pace with a few 400m reps at 5k pace should get you used to holding the speed when you are tired without killing you for the next workout.
when you say half pace is that current or goal pace for upcoming race?


Good question.

Steve Magnus at the Science of Running had a good post on this topic. He calls training to run X distance at Y goal pace "specific endurance". Bear in mind that this post is aimed at the coaches of high school athletes, so there's a strong "let's not burn out a kid who only has a year of endurance training under their belt by hammering them" element. The principles are the same, but if you've been doing this endurance silliness for a while, you might be able to transition more quickly, or skip elements of base building.

http://www.scienceofrunning.com/2008/10/hs-trainingspecific-endurance.html

Oops, I thought this was about cycling.

I've qualified for the Florida Senior Games in the 5K and 10K time trial events, but I'm really weak in the 5K.
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Re: how to improve 5K TTs? [Staz] [ In reply to ]
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Yeah, it was about cycling. The Senior Games has short cycling TTs - 5k and 10K. I've never done a good 5K TT and I'm trying to put a plan in place to significantly improve my times in both events, but especially in the 5K. I just did a 5K TT (part of the Pensacola Cycling Classic) on Saturday to see where I stand - and I was pretty disappointed.
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Re: how to improve 5K TTs? [TTV] [ In reply to ]
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TTV wrote:
Yeah, it was about cycling. The Senior Games has short cycling TTs - 5k and 10K. I've never done a good 5K TT and I'm trying to put a plan in place to significantly improve my times in both events, but especially in the 5K. I just did a 5K TT (part of the Pensacola Cycling Classic) on Saturday to see where I stand - and I was pretty disappointed.

Yay, I was right!

Well firstly any potential training depends on your timeline. Overgear work along with intervals such as 4x5 minutes supplemented by some weight training could do the trick. Aeroness is also still relevant and if you can clean up your setup or fit then that will also be benficial. Take into consideration that you should be able to maintain a more aggressive position than in a longer TT.
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Re: how to improve 5K TTs? [trekker] [ In reply to ]
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Trekker - I think you really nailed it with the warm up. I intended to do a thorough warm up for the race I did on Saturday. It was the first time I brought a trainer and set up my road bike on it to warm up. Unfortunately, the drive took longer than expected and with all the time killing things you end up needing to do I cut the warm up much shorter than I wanted to . I think a better, harder warm up would have been a big plus for the short 5K distance.
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Re: how to improve 5K TTs? [TTV] [ In reply to ]
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Yes. Have your trainer there. Spin and work up a good sweat for at least 20 minutes in advance of the 5K sprint.
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Re: how to improve 5K TTs? [TTV] [ In reply to ]
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TTV - yes warmups are important for short distance but don't loose focus here. I have raced the SG 5K and 10K and they are not that organized to be able to "properly" warmup and show up 20 seconds before your start and with a sweat on (lots of delays, long start lines, etc). You must do the required training. Lots of 4-5 minute all out efforts. The 5K is about pushing your body thru a lot of pain. It is as mental as it is physical. Also, while some people have a different opinion, I found it very helpful to know the max power that I could absolutely put out for that distance. A little over, you will blow up. A little under, there goes the podium. Hope to see you there this year. Good luck!
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Re: how to improve 5K TTs? [TTV] [ In reply to ]
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1. Ride your bike as much as possible.
2. Once a week practice 5k TTs

5k TT is still almost entirely aerobic. Learning to pace it and hurt bad is the main reason to practice it, rather than specific physiological adaptations.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: how to improve 5K TTs? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
1. Ride your bike as much as possible.
2. Once a week practice 5k TTs

5k TT is still almost entirely aerobic. Learning to pace it and hurt bad is the main reason to practice it, rather than specific physiological adaptations.

I'm surprised at your suggestions (seriously, no offence intended).

I assume the OP was and will ride quite a bit.

While a 5k has a large aerobic component it's going to be the ability to go anaerobic that will make the competitive difference. I'd REALLY try and buff out my ability to go anaerobic by doing high watt intervals lasting from 1 to 2 minutes. Some with plenty of rest and some with the start of the interval just below 5k race pace. These will be disgusting.

with reference to pacing and hurt bad parts, are, totally things worth practicing, the shorter the event the more important they become.

Old guys rule.

I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________
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Re: how to improve 5K TTs? [manofthewoods] [ In reply to ]
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Indeed, I think one of the biggest misconception is the degree to which anaerobic capacity is critical for shorter durations in comparison to aerobic.

Let us do some math using the CP model. Take a hypothetical athlete with a CP or threshold power of around 250 watts and anaerobic capacity of 10 kilojoules

A 5k TT will take about 6 minutes for someone like that of normal size

Assume I work hard on my anaerobic capacity and add 20%, so I am up to 12 kilojoules.

That adds about 5 watts to my 5k TT power (2 kilojoules over 6 minutes)

Conversely if I raise my threshold power by just 5% then I add about 12 watts to my 5k TT power

Obviously the CP model does not perfectly reflect reality, and I may be making an error in some assumptions or analysis here. I would be happy to have feedback.


manofthewoods wrote:
While a 5k has a large aerobic component it's going to be the ability to go anaerobic that will make the competitive difference. I'd REALLY try and buff out my ability to go anaerobic by doing high watt intervals lasting from 1 to 2 minutes. Some with plenty of rest and some with the start of the interval just below 5k race pace. These will be disgusting.

with reference to pacing and hurt bad parts, are, totally things worth practicing, the shorter the event the more important they become.

Old guys rule.



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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Re: how to improve 5K TTs? [manofthewoods] [ In reply to ]
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The fastest way to do it, is to pedal as hard as possible for about 7 to 8 minutes. Just countdown in your head each few minutes. And save some for the end, dont blow your load.
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Re: how to improve 5K TTs? [jackmott] [ In reply to ]
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jackmott wrote:
Indeed, I think one of the biggest misconception is the degree to which anaerobic capacity is critical for shorter durations in comparison to aerobic.

Let us do some math using the CP model. Take a hypothetical athlete with a CP or threshold power of around 250 watts and anaerobic capacity of 10 kilojoules

A 5k TT will take about 6 minutes for someone like that of normal size

Assume I work hard on my anaerobic capacity and add 20%, so I am up to 12 kilojoules.

That adds about 5 watts to my 5k TT power (2 kilojoules over 6 minutes)

Conversely if I raise my threshold power by just 5% then I add about 12 watts to my 5k TT power

Obviously the CP model does not perfectly reflect reality, and I may be making an error in some assumptions or analysis here. I would be happy to have feedback.


manofthewoods wrote:

While a 5k has a large aerobic component it's going to be the ability to go anaerobic that will make the competitive difference. I'd REALLY try and buff out my ability to go anaerobic by doing high watt intervals lasting from 1 to 2 minutes. Some with plenty of rest and some with the start of the interval just below 5k race pace. These will be disgusting.

with reference to pacing and hurt bad parts, are, totally things worth practicing, the shorter the event the more important they become.

Old guys rule.

great points. My mistake was using the term anaerobic when I meant to say threshold (AT). However, the method to get there is still the same disgusting hard intervals. This kind of stuff works great for me anyway, maybe because I'm all slowtwitch and any development of speed/power really hurts - but helps.

Also, given your explanation (which is as usual - good), it seems to me that it would indeed pay to do both anaerobic work and threshold work. But, if one had to go, I'd agree that it would be the anaerobic stuff.

admit it - old guys DO rule :-)

I saw this on a white board in a window box at my daughters middle school...
List of what life owes you:
1. __________
2. __________
3. __________
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Re: how to improve 5K TTs? [manofthewoods] [ In reply to ]
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For sure, along with riding as much as you can, some interval work should be included.

Practicing 5k TTs once a week would be some of that.

Probably a good idea to add another session each week, or two, depending on how much time you have and how you respond to high intensity vs volume.

manofthewoods wrote:
great points. My mistake was using the term anaerobic when I meant to say threshold (AT). However, the method to get there is still the same disgusting hard intervals. This kind of stuff works great for me anyway, maybe because I'm all slowtwitch and any development of speed/power really hurts - but helps.

Also, given your explanation (which is as usual - good), it seems to me that it would indeed pay to do both anaerobic work and threshold work. But, if one had to go, I'd agree that it would be the anaerobic stuff.

admit it - old guys DO rule :-)



Kat Hunter reports on the San Dimas Stage Race from inside the GC winning team
Aeroweenie.com -Compendium of Aero Data and Knowledge
Freelance sports & outdoors writer Kathryn Hunter
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