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Re: FOP swimmers. Improving times? [dannyweissphoto [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Hoping you had an opinion on training to get faster.


I've been just an ok age grouper (56) swimmer for 9 years. I started doing Masters the past 8 months. It has been great.

My question is about Kick. When doing a 25, 50 or the last 25 of any distance I can turn on the kick and really feel the difference. The rest of the time my kick is almost just a balance thing. When I try and kick hard during longer distances it just wears me out.

Typical times (yard pool) 25, :12.5; 50, :27.91; 100 1:02.4; 200 2:25 500 6:52

All the real swimmers blow me away when we do kick sets.

Should I just keep trying to add more fast kicking for longer and longer portions of the distances? or keep working on the pull portion and leave the kick as is?

Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com
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Re: FOP swimmers. Improving times? [dkennison] [ In reply to ]
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dkennison wrote:
Hoping you had an opinion on training to get faster.
I've been just an ok age grouper (56) swimmer for 9 years. I started doing Masters the past 8 months. It has been great.
My question is about Kick. When doing a 25, 50 or the last 25 of any distance I can turn on the kick and really feel the difference. The rest of the time my kick is almost just a balance thing. When I try and kick hard during longer distances it just wears me out.
Typical times (yard pool) 25, :12.5; 50, :27.91; 100 1:02.4; 200 2:25 500 6:52
All the real swimmers blow me away when we do kick sets.
Should I just keep trying to add more fast kicking for longer and longer portions of the distances? or keep working on the pull portion and leave the kick as is?

I'm sure Jason will weigh in but here's my $0.02: you're pretty speedy for a 56 yr old tri guy, espec for that 25, but you really fall off at 200 and espec at the 500. I can go 2:25 for 200 scy on a really good day, but i can go 6:05 for the 500 on a similarly good day. I don't have much of a kick despite having worked a lot on it (mediocre ankle flex), and even in a 25 or 50 i don't kick that much relative to strong kickers. So, i'm thinking your "relatively fast for triathlete" sprint times are due to your relatively strong kick but most guys can't keep the hard kick up over anything over 100 scy, which is what your 200/500 times reflect. In sum, i would advocate for working more on your pulling endurance:)


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: FOP swimmers. Improving times? [dkennison] [ In reply to ]
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Hmm..

My thoughts are that the kick is really important, and training the kick is very important, but not for the reason that you might think. I might write a bit more detail on this at a later date, but in a nutshell, the reason you want to develop your kick to be stronger is so that you can use it less. Seems paradoxical, but really, you want to be using not a lot o energy on the kick, but an effective kick really helps you get up higher in the water, keeps your legs from dragging, assists your rotation, and lets you generate a bit of lift with the pull without your legs dropping.

So, for long distances I don't try and kick "hard". It will wear you out. What I do, usually, is a light 4 beat kick, sometimes a 2 beat, for significant portions of a 400 (500 if I swam yards) or the 800/1000. 200 and under is 6 beat, but it isn't a hard 6 beat until the last 100 or so. the opening stages of a 200 are focused on efficiency and body position.

I dont know if that really helps, It's hard to explain without a visual.

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2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: FOP swimmers. Improving times? [JasoninHalifax] [ In reply to ]
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Thank you both. I will continue to work on the pull. I now have a new 500 goal.

That explains the kick. So get the kick stronger - so at a lesser energy level - it will be better later than it is now. :-)
I can feel that I am not as high in the water without the 6 beat kick so I'm probably loosing a lot in drag (energy) for the longer distances.

I get it.

Dan Kennison

facebook: @triPremierBike
http://www.PremierBike.com
http://www.PositionOneSports.com
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Re: FOP swimmers. Improving times? [dkennison] [ In reply to ]
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Maybe the best way to describe it is "easy speed" on the kick. Kicking "hard" can make your legs too tense, so all you do is generate noise and splashes, but not lift and propulsion.

Swimming Workout of the Day:

Favourite Swim Sets:

2020 National Masters Champion - M50-54 - 50m Butterfly
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Re: FOP swimmers. Improving times? [dannyweissphoto] [ In reply to ]
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dannyweissphoto wrote:
I'm an FOP swimmer. I swam all through HS and a couple of years in college. These days main focus is on bike and run. Curious if anyone has found some later in life swim speed(I'm 43) for those that have been swimming forever. I know there are no shortcuts. But other then swimming a lot more, I can't see times shifting moving forward. I have been considering:
1) stroke analysis
2) adding lot more 25/50's

This is what I've done. I've cut back my training time this year so 2-3 days a week is all I can justify without giving up too much bike or run time that will have a greater impact on my times. SO I decided that my best value for my time, is higher intensity and occasionally getting a swim coach to give me some pointers and see what I'm doing. Really focusing on my stroke and quality in stead of volume worked well last year and I had a 70.3 swim PR and swam about the same at IM distance but with less effort I think. I just "sat in" and relaxed. If I feel like crap or unmotivated, I'll do some extra kicking sets and cut the swim short. If I'm "ON" I'll extend the set and push myself a little.

My problem is that I had some big gaps in swimming over the last 20 years at times, and so it slowly but surely has eroded. I'd guess that in High School I was about a 12:00 for 1000scy. I'm around 13:00-13:15 now. I'm OK with that. I'm fast enough that while my weakest leg slightly, it's not hurting me and I can still get off the bike near the front of the race. Killing myself to go 1-2 minute faster won't change that. But backing off the bike, could cost me more than that.

I must admit, being the 1st or one of the 1st out of the water right after high school when I still had speed, was pretty cool. I do miss that, but not as much as riding fast and being the first to T2 or across the line. I like that more. :)


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