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Re: Chung/Aerolab route in Boulder [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:
It's not in this PDF. Unless you meant something else?

http://anonymous.coward.free.fr/...cda/indirect-cda.pdf

Hmmm. I just checked the copy on line o make sure. The copy I see has a revision date of March 2012 (There's a more recent version but I never uploaded it).
This is what I see on page 74:

Quote:
Minimizing squared error has certain very desirable properties from the point of view of
statistical inference; however, if the method is not robust to error, statistical inference is
unimportant.

In spirit, this is similar to the method of maximum likelihood; in this case, CdA is chosen to
maximize the “likelihood” (loosely defined) of observing elevation profiles with zero net
elevation gain from lap to lap. Another approach that may be familiar is Laplace transforms.
Like Laplace transforms, this is an integral transform that converts a sequence of data
collected in time domain into a function of a different variable: in this case, distance and
elevation as a function of CdA. Of course, a transform only makes sense if the alternative
either simplifies the analysis or provides some new insight on the relationships in the original
form. That insight is the elevation profile implied by the data. In addition, we're adding laps
so we can create a new constraint and exploit a natural “periodicity” in the data. That kind of
periodicity doesn't exist in other approaches. Later we'll see other ways to create the proper
periodic contrasts in different settings and that will give us hints on how to construct good
test protocols.

As mentioned earlier, another way of thinking of this is as a generalization of a coast down
test. In a typical coast down, you coast from a known speed down to another known speed
on a surface of known slope. In that case, you're applying a known power: zero. In this case,
you're doing a “coast down” with known non-zero power, and using the recorded speed to
tell you how quickly you're decelerating. See H.W. Schreuder (op. cit.) for a discussion of
high precision coast downs.

Here's what I see on page 75:

Quote:
Note that the flatter the course the greater potential effect of unmeasured wind since wind
will be larger relative to the true elevation.

You want the errors to be small relative to the modeled parts. In the usual approach you
tightly control speed, acceleration, and the slope and you choose windless days. In this
approach you don't have to control the speed and acceleration since they're measured well.
However, you want a good spread of speeds and a reasonable amount of change in elevation
to help “isolate” wind effects.

That is, if you know the true elevation profile it gives you a good way to assess how much
the estimate was affected by unmeasured wind. This turns out to be useful: the usual
approach is to wait for a wind-free day, to test on a flat (or constant slope) road, to hold
speed constant (or, at least, to minimize changes in speed) but there is no simple way to tell if
the measurements were tainted by wind, or changes in speed, or a small degree of slope, or a
slight change in position.

If you ride laps, you can “overlay” them to see how similar the VE profiles are for each of the
laps. If they're very different, you know it was too windy, or you didn't hold your position, or
something else happened to the measurements, and you can see if the difference was transient
or perduring.

Here's another way to think of it: we're trying to raise the “signal-to-noise” ratio. The
classical approach to field testing tries to increase this ratio by decreasing the noise.
Decreasing noise is always a good thing but another approach is to decrease noise and to
increase the signal. This approach models accelerations and “sequences” the data in order to
increase the signal, then re-casts the model in a way that lets us measure deviations from fit.

And here's what I see on page 77.

Quote:
Let's review: using only power and speed, we can show that the calculated profiles are
relatively inelastic to mass. Most people doing field testing would at least make an attempt to
measure air density but I didn't so the best we can do here is to produce an estimate for CdA
that depends on Crr and air density.

For given Crr, increasing air density implies decreasing CdA, and a 1% change in air density
implies around a 1.5% change in CdA.

For given air density, increasing Crr implies decreasing CdA, and a 1% change in Crr implies
around a 0.3% change in CdA.

This may make it sound like Crr is less important than air density, but air density is easy to
measure and it changes relatively slowly while Crr is hard to measure well, road surfaces can
change quickly, and changing road surfaces can change Crr by much more than 1%. The
bottom line is that although CdA is relatively less sensitive to changes in Crr than to change
in air density, the magnitude of changes in Crr can be large so the overall effect is also large.
Conversely, if you're off on air density by a little bit, it won't affect CdA that much. Bottom
line, you should probably do your best to record air temperature and barometric pressure, but
don't sweat too much about air density changing over the course of your runs.

Here's an important observation: for these data, the total elevation change doesn't appear to
be that sensitive to changes in Crr. That's so for these data but it will turn out that this is not
always the case; in fact, we'll exploit this difference later.
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Re: Chung/Aerolab route in Boulder [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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The statement you made and my question regarding it:

RChung:you also test at one speed only, you can't estimate the error around your estimated CdA. There's variability you can control (like, varying speed, power, position, mass, or equipment) and there's variability you can't (like, errors in your speed sensor or your power sensor or, importantly, puffs of wind). From a statistical point of view, we use controlled variability to make estimates of the magnitude and direction of the errors due to uncontrollable variability.

rruff: Please show me (or point me to) specifically how varying the speed allows you determine the error in CdA and the magnitude and direction of uncontrolled variability.

There's nothing in the presentation that answers the question that I was asking. Trying to ask anyway!

We are using the equations of motion and measured speed and power data to calculate a VE curve. If that curve can't be leveled or has distortions, we know that *something* is wrong and the data is probably not usable. But a good looking curve is certainly not evidence that the data is correct, only that it is *consistent* for that run. If your PM, speedometer, position, etc are "off" compared to a prior run, so long as they are consistently off (or close to it), it won't be evident in the data. A consistent wind will likely effect the height of the peaks and valleys, but this may or may not invalidate the data depending on how your course is set up. Wind is never really consistent though.

Specifically how does intentionally varying speed allow you to determine the error in CdA and the magnitude and direction of uncontrolled variability? If true, then there must be a method. Speed variation isn't necessary to generate the VE curves or spot inconsistencies, and as I mentioned early, data that is outside of typical race speeds introduces additional errors and uncertainty.

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Re: Chung/Aerolab route in Boulder [rruff] [ In reply to ]
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rruff wrote:

There's nothing in the presentation that answers the question that I was asking. Trying to ask anyway!

Holy fuck.

So, it *is* there, you *do* have the right document, you *did* read it, but you don't understand it. Not understanding something that's there isn't the same thing as claiming that it's not there or that I've never mentioned it. Not understanding why something is needed isn't the same thing as not needing it.

You may not care about the accuracy and precision of your estimates -- the evidence is that you don't. But it's wrong that fixing the value of Crr and doing a test run at only one speed gives you better accuracy and precision than testing at varying speeds. What you're doing just makes it impossible to assess the size of the errors, so you're treating them as if they don't exist. Man, I wish life were that simple.

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Re: Chung/Aerolab route in Boulder [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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Where's the 'like' button?

Developing aero, fit and other fun stuff at Red is Faster
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Re: Chung/Aerolab route in Boulder [RChung] [ In reply to ]
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This is the only part of what you posted where a speed variation was mentioned, so I assume this is what you are calling an explanation. "However, you want a good spread of speeds and a reasonable amount of change in elevation to help “isolate” wind effects". What I'm looking for is *how* and *why*?

Since you don't seem to be interested, I'll take a crack at it. For that to be true, wind would need to have a greater effect on the VE profile for the hilly variable speed approach compared to a flat constant speed test. The effect of the wind on the calculated slope does vary with bike speed. The faster you go the greater the effect. As an example 300W (26.9mph av) on a flat road with a 2mph wind (head and tail) is equivalent to a .0033 slope. At 150W (20.2mph av) the equivalent slope is .0025. So if you do some low speed "laps" you will get less of a deviation from true elevation than you would at higher speeds, but I don't see how that is useful unless you are clueless about the elevation of your course (which can be fixed). The benefit of ntentionally varying the speed *within* a lap, or the presence of variable slope? The ball is in your court. I don't see how that could give you useful information, but will be happy to hear why it does.

Speaking of slope, if someone has access to a flat track, that seems ideal. The elevation is very consistent at zero. Any deviation on the VE plot will be readily apparent. Much easier to spot than on course with a variable slope.

Regarding using a fixed Crr. Lets say I guess a Crr of .004 but it's really .005. That's extreme, but it won't matter. Let's also say my real CdA is .22. According to your presentation, a 1% Crr error will produce about .3% CdA error, so I'll use that ratio. My calculated CdA will be .2365 (7.5% higher than actual). I'm out doing some VE tests on a new helmet that actually reduces my CdA by 1% (.0022) compared to my old one. However, because my Crr assumption was off I calculate a reduction in CdA of .93% (.0022/.2365) instead of 1%. A delta CdA error of only .07%. A simpler way to think about this is that the error in the *delta* CdA will be the same as the absolute CdA error, both 7% in this case. Any error caused by fixing Crr will be tiny, and the error is only one of magnitude, not direction.


Now lets assume I don't guess a Crr, and vary my speed between laps to determine Crr and CdA together. The calculated Crr is .0052 for the first helmet and .0048 for the new one. But Crr isn't really varying, that's just my measurement error. That error in Crr causes me to calculate a CdA of .2174 (actual is .2200) for the first helmet and .2204 (actual is .2178) for the new helmet, giving me a delta CdA error of 2.4% and leading me to conclude that the fastest helmet is the slower one.

You might say that you can do better than the +-4% Crr error in the example above, but I seriously doubt that. Not if you are really treating Crr and CdA as unknowns in the same run. And you don't cheat. Maybe a little better on a perfect day. But you'd need to be more than an order of magnitude better just to match the error induced by taking a WAG on Crr. So what's the point?

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Re: Chung/Aerolab route in Boulder [SkippyKitten] [ In reply to ]
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Sucking up is all you have to offer? You can do better than that...
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