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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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tttiltheend wrote:
Ken66 wrote:
I did the Patriot as well. I found the swim was long ( spoke wirh 4 people with 920's. 3 said they got 1.35 and 1 said he got 1.3 miles) Bike was not bad. Few real tight corners at the bottom of hills to take away your earned momentum but other than that it was a nice day.


Garmins when worn on the wrist in the swim can't be trusted, they usually read too long. Both my wife and I feel our times were consistent with a 1.2 mile course. It's not short though, the way a lot of courses are.

When training I put my garmin on the top of my Kiefer swim bouy. I often swim alone in a lake and while I am not afraid of drowning, I want some extra viability so I don't get hit by a boat.

You really don't even know that it is there.

https://www.kiefer.com/...520.php?page_id=1207

With my garmin on the handle it stays out of the water and gives an accurate reading.
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [Jamie] [ In reply to ]
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I have not done this race in a few years, but the roads used to be pretty rough. Good to see some improvement.

-- Aaron Davidson
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [Jamie] [ In reply to ]
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Re position and general bike setup: lose the Speedfil and get a bta. You're pretty "high" on you bike. Honestly that looks a lot like an aggressive road position and not so much a TT position. It looks like you could tolerate your seat being a touch higher. Start taking out spacers on your stem and work your front lower. You'll need to rotate your hips forward to make this work (think if you were wearing a belt you want the belt buckle to face the bottom bracket). This will change how you sit on the saddle which may or may not result in you needing to move the saddle forward/back or perhaps getting a different saddle altogether.

It will not be comfortable at first but chip away at it. You can pick up a year's worth of training in terms of speed with some solid aero/position tweaks.
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [Ken66] [ In reply to ]
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Ken66 wrote:
I did the Patriot as well. I found the swim was long ( spoke wirh 4 people with 920's. 3 said they got 1.35 and 1 said he got 1.3 miles) Bike was not bad. Few real tight corners at the bottom of hills to take away your earned momentum but other than that it was a nice day.


I noticed that too. Here are my swim distances for the last 3 years - all of the distances were tracked using the same watch, a 910XT:
2013: 1.30 miles
2014: 1.37 miles
2015: 1.35 miles
Last edited by: DavidBichara: Jun 29, 15 9:36
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [DavidBichara] [ In reply to ]
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mopshiv wrote:
Ignoring your position (which is shit but fixable) there is absolutely no reason that any able bodied male of average or larger size should be only averaging 150watts and have a claimed FTP of 212. If you are following some sort of program which has lots of easy rides, big gear hills etc I suggest throwing it out and just go and ride harder. Really just go smash yourself for the next couple of months and ignore your 'zones' specific intervals etc. You are essentially untrained on the bike and the gains you will make mentally and physically just from learning to push yourself harder will be massive. I personally don't think people should start their training with power meters but should start by simply trying to keep up with those faster than them.

I also did the Patriot half (and also love the race) and finished the bike in 2:43 (20.5mph) on an average of 164 watts (5’10” 175#). Intentionally a bit on the conservative side with my FTP being about 220. I followed it up with a decent (for me) run. I finished in the top 25% overall and top 1/3 of my competitive age group. I couldn’t figure out how to get my bike ranking from the results page but since it is my strongest sport it was probably a little higher than my overall ranking.

I am typically in the top 25% OA/ top 1/3 AG in tri’s and slightly better than that at my local club TT. I don’t do many group rides but I can usually keep up with the faster guys or at least the ‘B’ group. I have been riding recreationally for more than 10 years and training pretty hard for the last 3.

Considering my results and the training I have put in it feels weird to be told that I am ‘essentially untrained’. (mopshive is far from the only person I have seen make these type of comments) If I am untrained what are the 75% that I typically beat? I feel that I could hit an FTP of 240 (3 watts per kilo) with a lot of hard work but more than that seems impossible with my genetics. While I am sure I could lose a few pounds I don’t see any way much more than 3 Watts per kilo is a realistic goal for me.

This is my first year with a power meter, three years ago I started riding at a computrainer studio in the off season and two years ago I bought one for home.
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [Anachronism] [ In reply to ]
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Fitness is something that can be measured quite easily in most sports. You are either the fastest or you are somewhere in 2nd, 3rd or 87th place.

BUT I suppose it is still relative when it is being compared to other peoples standards.

Your post makes we wonder.

I am 42 and 180 LBS and pretty new at this game.

I came in 174 out of the 607 participants overall and 145 of the 363 male participants.

There were 73 guys in my age group and I was 31st

I swam slow 43:47 and came in 439 overall and 58 in my age group of 73

Bike was 2:52 07 averaging 19.5mph and I was 227 overall and 42nd in my division of 73

Run was 1 hour 49 averaging 8:20 miles (a little slow for me) and I was 120th overall and 21st in my AG of 73

I finished in 5 : 30. 46 and was 174 out of 607 participants and 31st out of the 73 other guys who are in my age group. The 40 to 44 mail division which is one of the faster ones.

I did not take the comment about being "untrained" as an insult BUT it made me laugh. I do train pretty hard. I haven't figured out how to swim well yet and I don't know crap about biking. I can still run OK for an old beat up guy BUT if I am UNTRAINED then what are the other 60% of my AG??? If I "trained" would I be a shoe in as a KQ??? Probably not.

Maybe mopshive is Norman Stadler's screen name?? That is a guy who can call me untrained on the bike all day long.
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [Jamie] [ In reply to ]
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Nice race!
Looks like from this pix that you can raise your seat up and move forward, this would help to shift you forward. I personally cannot ride very low due to a neck issue but do like to ride steep relative to the BB, I'm stronger with that setup.
Question, do you ride with your seat tilted up as it looks like it is on two of your profile pictures of the bike? If so you can't possibly fully rotate forward with it like that. My seat is angled down so I can rotate my pelvis to shift forward, but I also ride a split nose saddle not sure it matters though.
Definitely a road trip to Brunswick is in your future!


<We all know that light travels faster than sound. That's why certain people appear bright until you hear them speak>
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [tttiltheend] [ In reply to ]
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tttiltheend wrote:
Not an expert on swimming but did start late in age and have made better progress than I could have ever hoped for. I don't know how much you swim per week but in addition to needing fitness you probably have major flaws in your stroke. See if you can sign up for a clinic or get someone knowledgeable to look at your stroke so that you can know what to work on. And don't expect quick miracles but if you keep at it and work on both fitness and technique you can get way better. I'm still working on fixing technique flaws that were identified three years ago. Don't just swim long straight sets but do lots of hard intervals, 50s, 100s, 200s. Lots of good resources out there about swimming including this site.

It's worth have someone look at the stroke for sure, but as my n=1, I'll chime in that the difference between me putting down a 42:xx HIM swim a bit over 2.5yrs ago and <33 now has zero (literally zero - not exaggerating) to do with technique improvement, and 100% to do with greatly improved arm power and endurance in the swim stroke. I have videos in the pool of myself at both ability levels, and it's the same exact stroke, just stronger and faster now.

I actually suspect that technique fixes aren't going to drop the OP down under 40 alone - he's going to have to amp up that volume and intensity a lot, likely even dedicated swim blocks. (I had to do at least 2 dedicated 6 wk swim-focus blocks where I swim trained at least 6 hrs/wk, and was closer to 8-9 for most of those weeks. I say swim train, as 75-85% of those swim hours were on my Vasa - for me, the Vasa works even better than the pool does, likely because my arm muscular endurance lags my aerobic fitness significantly, even now.)
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [Dave Luscan] [ In reply to ]
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Dave Luscan wrote:
mopshiv wrote:
Ignoring your position (which is shit but fixable) there is absolutely no reason that any able bodied male of average or larger size should be only averaging 150watts and have a claimed FTP of 212. If you are following some sort of program which has lots of easy rides, big gear hills etc I suggest throwing it out and just go and ride harder. Really just go smash yourself for the next couple of months and ignore your 'zones' specific intervals etc. You are essentially untrained on the bike and the gains you will make mentally and physically just from learning to push yourself harder will be massive. I personally don't think people should start their training with power meters but should start by simply trying to keep up with those faster than them.


ThAt may be the case for this particular person, but I have seen a few able bodied middle aged males trained correctly and extremely intensely that have been basically topped out at 200 watts. Genetics is a bitch.

Yep, this is the truth. Training helps a lot, but genetics rule what you can achieve, as well as your rate of improvement.

200 watts may seem rookie level to someone who's pushing FTP 300 watts, but FTP 300 watts will seem rookie level (meaning he could do it with zero bike training) to a pro like Lionel Sanders who easily rides 350+ watts for a HIM.
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Re: PATRIOT HALF REPORT and ANOTHER Position critique [dmacandcheese] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for the input. My seat is actually slightly tilted down. I since those pictures were taken and I have taken out 2 large spacers to drop the front 2 CM. I then moved the seat forward 1 CM and raised it .5 CM.

I have been on 2 rides totaling 4 hours since the changes were made and I feel of with the changes. I can't say I am running any better off the bike but I think I am grabbing less air.

I then made a video to send to TT Bike fit and am waiting for their reply. I would love to do an in person actual bike fit but it would involve a days travel at either end.

I am pretty geographically handicapped where I live :(

If I get a video with suggested changes I'll post the suggestions here.
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