It's been 3 weeks since my first run, and I have 2.5 more until my event.

Just got done with another 12x400 session on the track. I hit 88-89" for all 10 of them (2 were at 91-92) with 1:15-1:30 rest (walking 200m).

Feeling optimistic. I wasn't even feeling good going into the session.

Why walking rest?

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Dan Meehan
Coach / Athlete

not sure. does it make a difference? i ask that sincerely.

The goal during the rest is to keep the legs moving, but not impede recovery for the next interval (similar to spinning a light gear between cycling intervals).

Typically this is a very slow jog or walk.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

Thanks. I have been walking, slowly. Roughly a 1:1 run:rest ratio.

I thought the above poster was referring to a walking vs jogging rest, not walk vs stationary...though I could be mistaken. I assumed for this session there is no difference between walking and jogging.

Should I push for a second or two faster in my next one? Should I run a few in racing flats?

Do the intervals in flats so you get used to them (preferably on an all weather track to minimize pounding).

Flats are worth ~5sec./mile vs. trainers (YMMV), so each interval could be 1sec. faster.

Instead of the last 4 400s, consider doing 1mile (6:30-6:45 pace).

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

Was at a bike race tonight and happened to talk with a friend who ran a sub-4:00 mile many years ago. He said if I am runnin 89-90 quarters with 1:1 rest, then I probably run 93, 94 quarters on race day. I was skeptical...but maybe!

A sub-4 is crazy!

Doing that last mile in the interval set will give you an idea.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

Walking vs running rest is a huge difference. Are you trying to improve your 1mile/2mile time? Trying to do fast running to work on economy? Then perhaps 12x400 with long walking rest is good because you can run the reps fast and do more of them. But you're not trying to do that, you're doing crash training to get ready for a duathlon, it's better to run the 400 slowly. My advice for this whole thing would be different than you've gotten but it's too late now so just get after it.

I'd caution against letting your expectations run away from you based on what some guy says about what you do for 12x400 with 1.5-2minutes walking rest. If you PB a mile as the first mile in the 5k, as many inexperienced people do, it will not be your best 5k, let alone your best 5k/15kTT duathlon (a different kettle of fish). The less running you have behind you, the more that 5k is going to take out of you and leave you with dead legs for the TT.

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Dan Meehan
Coach / Athlete

I am a cat 3 roadie who does a few tri's at the end of the season just for a change of pace for a month or two. I find that any real long run just kills the legs, so everything is shorter. I like to start with 3-4 20 minute runs, then a 20-30-30-40, then week three 30-30-40-50. I just keep normal road training normal (300-350mpw). With this i can get in around a 6:15-30 5k off the bike.

to answer this i'd have to recap the whole thread (i think you joined in late), but the real issue is that i'm 3 weeks into the 5-week lead time that i had for the event....so i'm going to stick with my plan.

basically, i'm trying solely to improve leg speed and am not using running to build any fitness (i have that from the bike). i am doing short runs so as not to injure myself before the event. i am not feeling sore during or after my runs, though i expect after my race i will hurt for a few days.

also...given some changes (dropping some weight and 4-5 weeks of running), i think PB'ing my 1st mile as part of a 5k may just happen without trying. it's not that i'm going for that--i think it will just be a function of improved fitness.

i do agree that the 5k will take more out of me than someone who is used to running; the last time i did this 2 years ago (off of ZERO running, not even a warm-up) all i had to give on the bike was tempo watts. i expect the same thing might happen again, but i will go faster on the run. good thing i'm aero!

thanks for your comments!

thanks. the problem for me is i'm already 3 weeks into the 5-week lead-in, as well as the fact that the bike is still my main focus. i raced 3 days last weekend, for instance, and my race more in the next 2. so....i don't want to do the 3-4 runs/week during this time, but i'm doing 1-2.

i've even been doing those runs in the morning with a bike session later, without any real adverse effect. but...that's with 1-2 sessions/week. more than that and i think i'd skew a bit toward too much running. i've got some big on-the-bike goals immediately after this little local event.

i appreciate the thoughts.

Ah, ok so you are still road racing as well. That is the hard one as road racing and running do not coexist at all. But i have found that one run a week can suffice if it has some focused elements to it. I try and run once every week (except on a/b race weeks) and i do it Sunday evenings and use monday as a day to recover. I like to do around 30 minutes, with 3-4x400m at goal race pace thrown in. I would try and do these on a treadmill as i think it is easier on the legs. For a second run i would run right off the bike for 1 mile hard and stop, nothing extra, preferably on a day where the next is an easy day.

I read the whole thread, I understand what you're doing even though I disagree with it. I agree with sticking with the plan for now and next time don't decide to prepare for an event 5 weeks out. My main point is just that the idea that you don't need to build fitness for running since you already have it, or that you shouldn't because it's too dangerous 5 weeks before a race is a load of b.s. I'd also say doing mile paced intervals or 12x400 every week pretty fast when you just started running has more injury risk than benefit to training. If you have limited time then your interval workouts need to make sense, and work on what's most important.

For the race my advice is: don't go out too fast, don't go out too fast, don't go out too fast.

Best of luck!

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Dan Meehan
Coach / Athlete

i respect your advice. not getting injured is top priority for me.

one more data point: so far you are the first person who has told me that i have an increased risk of injury from running 400s. everyone else i have asked in person (e.g., that 4-minute miler is a HS track coach) has had the opposite view when i talk about my pace and give them other info. they also know me and know my physiology/engine, so they have more info than i posted in the thread.

i can see that if taken at face value, an off-the-couch runner trying to run hard for 12x400 is a big injury risk. ~90" quarters is pretty well within my capability (i've been doing the sessions pretty easily)--in other words i'm not going out and trying to do something like 12x75 and exceed what i can do by a large amount.

i have a deep base of fitness & interval training outside of running, so i know the right sensations.

no, i don't know everything about running (far from it) and yes, i realize i am putting myself out there at risk of injury, but i am trying to do all i can to minimize that. so far i have not run one step with any pain and am ok with shutting down any session should pain pop up.

as for the why-did-i-only-give-myself-5-weeks bit........i'm a cyclist/road racer and have been training, traveling and racing frequently up until a couple weeks ago. this event's date was announced and i realized i'd be able to do it....5 weeks ago. this thread probably comes off SUPER serious (and i do take it seriously) but at the end of the day it is a little local event for charity that starts a stone's throw from my house, and i'm just trying to improve my running a bit to put me in the mix. if i can be within striking distance of the good runners who can also bike, i have a chance of passing them and finishing on the podium. all in good fun.

even if i thought i could eventually be a 5-minute miler (i don't), i recognize something like that would take a LONG time....i'm not trying to do that here.

i read your posts and appreciate the advice...and will certainly be more informed for next time. in the meantime, i'm continuing with this plan and will post some updates in case others are searching in the future.

thank you!

another day, another track session. i'm 2 weeks out from the event. felt sluggish this morning (still training on the bike) but managed to crack out 12x400. 1 @ 85, 4@ 86 (the last 3), 5 @ 87, 1 @ 88 & 1 @ 90 (the first one).

still a 1:1 run:walk ratio. finished up with a 7:30 mile to cool down.

feeling cautiously optimistic.

another day, another track session. well, headed out to the track today but there was a soccer tournament going on with packed bleachers, and i didn't have the guts to do my intervals with that crowd.

i improvised on a bike path. i ran 81-83 "400s" today (in quotes because i think they measured a bit short--i think i was actually running 84-86). last weekend i was doing 5:50-6:08 pace (+1 @ 5:44); today was 5:38-5:48 (+1 at 5:56).

hm.

Looks like you are in good shape for the 5k! As others have mentioned, it's easy to go out too fast (which is bad for a open 5k, and worse if it leaves you with dead legs for the bike). Even for experienced runners it's natural for the adrenaline/freshness to lead to a faster than average first mile split (I don't think I've done a 10k where my first mile wasn't faster than it should have been). Aim for a 6:30 first mile....don't go out in 6:10.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

hey, titanflexr--thanks for your post. as you can see, i've been trying to implement your advice (with a few modifications).

i appreciate the tip. i have a watch that does a pretty good job of estimating my pace every 5", so i can use that to adjust as i settle in.

there are a couple guys who run around 19:00-20:20, historically, and have solid bike legs / win or are on the podium (if a ringer shows up). i was thinking about following them / drafting a bit....unless the pace is very fast.

honestly, i'm a bit scared and still skeptical of stringing together 12 400s at slightly slower pace, so i expect that if anything i might start a bit conservative. i think i'd be pretty thrilled with 6:27 miles (=19:59).

OTOH, running 6:27 miles is pretty much 96" 400s, and that does seem like a slow slow-down vs the ~85-86s i ran today.

i'm planning on 2 more interval sessions. race is in 10 days.

well, today was my last running workout before the event on sunday.

on tuesday i had a bit of a weird incident. i woke up and my knee was incredibly stiff. i'm not certain it was due to running; i'd last run on thursday and had no pain. 5 days later and a locked knee? hm. definitely scared me. i've had surgeries on that knee and on rare occasion it acts up. it was 37F and rainy here overnight.

i was bummed as i'd planned to hit the track.

i got it moving, kept it warm, etc., and a few hours later it felt a bit better. ran a bit on the track and it felt no worse, so i did my 12x400 and vowed to stop if there was even a twinge.

times were uninspiring. i was running in some cushier shoes with more heel drop, and it was a windy/cold morning. i'd last run 85s/86s, so i was a bit disappointed to see 93, 95, 94, etc. wind? the knee issue from the morning? cushier shoes? i was coming off a bit of easier training, too. hm.

also, instead of walking 100m for a 1:1 interval:rest ratio, i jogged the 100m and wound up with ~2:1 interval to rest.

i was happy to get in the workout, but it made me think "man, i'm running ~95" laps here with a jog every 400m.....no way can i hold that for 5k continuous." hm.

an interesting thing: tested 2 pairs of flats in the last 4 laps. turned 90 & 91, then 88 & 90 for them. had a bit more rest when i changed shoes but the same rest in between the laps for each shoe.

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fast forward to today, thursday. less windy today. i'd been continuing my bike training and even had a (small) race wednesday night. after racing my knee felt 100%. woke up this morning and decided to get in one last track workout, another 12x400.

switched back to my normal training shoes and turns 88-89 (with an 87 and a couple 92s) for the first 8. then i did my flat experiment and turned 87/86, then 86 and 85.5 for the 2 laps in each of 2 pair.

still confused about what my pacing will/should be, but it will probably sort itself out.

flats are definitely faster!



really appreciate all the advice given, especially from folks like @Titanflexr. it has helped quite a bit. no matter how the race turns out, i am sure that i am notably faster than i was ~4 weeks ago.

i feel like i could probably cruise a 7:00 pace--probably more like 6:40 / ~100" quarters would be doable. beyond that i just don't know.

hey, all...wanted to circle back with some results and to say thanks for the advice, discussion and general encouragement.

this was just a little local race, but local pride was on the line. i wound up putting down the fastest individual time of the day.

i ran a 20:24 5k. i would have been over-the-moon with 19:59, but it didn't happen. (sorry! i feel like a few people believed i could run much faster, so maybe i let someone down there.) i noticed in the first 1/10th of a mile i was running a 5:05 pace so immediately shut it down. i ran hard but stayed within myself--working mainly off of respiration to control my pace. i let a large group run away from me. i didn't know how many were doing both legs vs relayers, but the bottom line was they were WAY faster.

i hit transition a full 3' behind the fastest individual runner. kicked my shoes off (elastic laces!), donned my helmet, took a quick drink and then did the flying mount.

the mount was just fine, but due to a BOA/user issue i wound up riding the bike leg with an upper BOA unfastened. no big deal--didn't cost me anything and i didn't want to spend additional time messing with it. my wife said a few people botched their mounts. it's amazing what 15' of practice will do! :)

power-wise, tempo was about all i could do. i expected this. i used my course knowledge and TT experience to apply the power i had in the right areas of the course (there was some wind and a couple hills) and get SUPER aero...and turned in a bike leg that was about 4' faster than the 1st place runner.

was definitely a fun race and i learned a bunch from this thread.



my 1st mile turned out to be a PB! (but the 3 miles were quite evenly paced...within seconds of one another, i think.)



so i was pretty easily running my 12x400s at 90" during the weeks leading up to the event. 85-86 was definitely pushing it. my race pace translated to about 98" per quarter.

in hindsight, i feel like a 19:59 was possible for me, but i was a little afraid to push it that hard and stayed conservative. i think i would have been more tired for the bike, but i feel like my time on the bike would have been very slightly slower if at all. i don't think i'd dip below tempo power.

i just didn't have the confidence (courage) stringing together 12 consecutive 400s. if i had another month to prepare i would have run a standalone 5k. i'm fairly sure i'd have been in the 19, 19.5 range and that would have left me feeling mentally stronger. for next year, i think the run is where i can gain the most time.

my transition was fairly good, but i could maybe do it 15" faster from the time i cross the line from the run to the time my shoes are buckled. maybe.

not really sure i can improve the TT by much, if at all. it is what it is after a 5k run (for a cyclist!), and i expect that i'm not likely to ride threshold watts, nor will i dip below tempo.

so....maybe i can get to 19.5 (1' faster) and then save, say 30" elsewhere? would leave me a bit better positioned in case a ringer shows up. 3' is a risky gap to leave to close on the bike.

although i only had ~4-5 weeks i am proud that i put in some time on the track and improved my run time by ~4 minutes vs the last time i did the event (2013)--on top of about 1' faster in transition+bike. i am certain the encouragement and workout ideas helped. i felt pretty solid on the run and was completely fine afterwards. i expected my legs might be trashed for 2-3 days after the run, but i was good to go for a ride later that afternoon and do workouts the next 2 days. maybe i didn't push it hard enough on the run?

finishing up the month of track training + the race without injury was important to me, and i succeeded there.

thank you!

Well done and thanks very much for keeping this log. It was enlightening to read from start to finish.

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"Good genes are not a requirement, just the obsession to beat ones brains out daily"...the Griz

Congrats on the win! What is most interesting to me is all the different permutations that can happen that will result in different times. Sure, you beat all the others that showed up, but did you do the best time you could have? That is what really makes these types of events fun. Could 30 sec slower on the run net you 1 minute faster on the bike?
Did the super fast 5k guy show up?

Congratz on the W! The pacing seems spot on; hard enough to log a strong run, not so hard that you blunted your bike.

With a year of training you could easily get the run to sub-19.

As you saw, some of the great runners can't bike. There was a guy I ran against in high school (state 2-mile champ) who would regularly do the first 5k of a Du in the low 15s. The only reason I stood a chance is that I could out bike him by 3-4min. over 30k. It always amazed me why some top runners with great power to weight ratios wouldn't be good TTers, but it often works that way.

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ECMGN Therapy Silicon Valley:
Depression, Neurocognitive problems, Dementias (Testing and Evaluation), Trauma and PTSD, Traumatic Brain Injury (TBI)

thanks. glad you enjoyed reading. hope it might help someone in the future.


i agree. it is interesting that different individuals can minimize weaknesses or exploit strengths to make an for an interesting race.

i can only race those who show up. a few people who are pretty strong in both disciplines chose to do the relay (i think part of this was fear-based). my friend, the fast 5k-er and biker, did not show, unfortunately. he was invited and had a place to stay, but in the past year he's had surgery for a hernia and told me that a fast 5k was not in the cards for him (without injury risk). the skeptic in me thinks he gifted me the race.

i do not believe that 30" slower on the run would have made me 1' faster; in fact, i think that 30" faster on the run would have meant i was about the same time/power on the bike. i might have been marginally faster, on the bike with an easier run, but as it was the run was fairly cruiser for me.

yes, it is hindsight but 8" faster per mile would have hurt just a bit, but nothing that would not have resolved in the first 1/2 kilometer or so. that's just a gut feeling.

did i do my best? that's a tough question. i think the answer is "yes, but..."

yes, i did my best based on the available time i had when i realized i'd be around for the event (4-5 weeks). i was and still am racing my bike, so i had to continue to train for that, and that took priority. i raced my bike 5 times during that stretch.

i could have run a bit more had i been willing to sacrifice some bike time, BUT....it was very important for me not to injure myself, and i think if i had put aside the biking i'd have been more tempted to run longer/faster and have been MORE likely to get injured.

in a perfect world, i'd have got in a standalone 5k which would have given me tons of confidence.


i also can think of many little things i could do better next time, but i'm not sure that i could have done them better *this* time.

does that make sense?


i think my TT ability (mental) is a benefit on a 5k run. one thing i noticed is that many of our local long-course multi-sport athletes did not show or chose to do a relay. i know they train long and slow and were afraid to race something short. it is funny because some of these individuals pride themselves on a reputation for being super tough. tough is getting outside of one's comfort zone. they can suffer mildly for a long duration but are unwilling to run an all-out mile or 5k.

anyway...you point about a sub-19 is an interesting one. i was actually thinking about this on a ride today.

i feel like i prepared myself pretty well for this event in a short period of time (thanks to your help), and i want to back off a bit to focus on my bike racing, and yet i don't want to lose what i've built--even if it is just 4-5 weeks of leg speed.

i have to travel east (sea level!) in september a week after my bike season ends, and i was wondering if i can find a 5k while i am there.

is there something minimal i can do to at least maintain the leg speed i have? i guess the question is what is the least i could do to maintain a little running fitness without harming the bike so that i could maybe hit it a bit more in the fall (i race a little CX so the running might help that/i could be a little more running-oriented then).

for 2016's race, i will likely start a month earlier with some workouts and also have additional experience and confidence, but i'll still have the biking constraint.