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Re: force applied while swimming [sametime] [ In reply to ]
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Well let me get to that... it was a beast morning at the pool. Had the "iSWIM" propulsion force experiment in the bag and who's there rippin' it in the fast lane?? Non other than the RSA U-boat and open water swim legend u have never heard about Dr. Owen Brown (he's the guy on the right:)

So after about a 1/2 hour I asked him what time he had to leave, which was like now. So I said "Owen I've got this force measurement tether in the bag you want to give it a rip?" He said OK. Keep in mind this is the very first test after a late night build!! ....OK onto the testing - unplanned, unexpected ...


So Owen rigs himself up and after some re-jigging we are ready to roll. "Move out slow and tighten the leash and just go for it Owen" BRORRORRORR (the sound of water churning) He shuts it down and gets pulled back. I was like man that is something. OK check the gauge. "Can't be right I go, somethin' s up it's pinned, I must have bumped the indicator tab". Reset ...test #2 BORROROROR "Sh** this is no mistake the gauge is pinned! You pinned the friggin' gauge" It's a 50LB scale. And there is an overload area so I estimate he just nudged it into there about 52-55 lbs of force.

So here's the bad news - I have to follow this act! I am the control test in this case, the reality check. And that it was. bbororobooroboro flat out I go ...Reading 39lbs. ok ok ok I didn't get all of that bororoboroborobo - 38 lbs. I give it up to him. High five, impressive power. Quite the thing to see manning the system, I had a water level view.

Here's me in the TSUN club cap - I could not better my first attempts. The lifeguard offered to snap the pix:

What does it all mean? First off all it's a real rush. Second I felt a new paradigm in terms of stroke head space. This is a physical, real numbers reality test of your swimming. No ifs ands or buts. Nothing compares to 5 seconds on the tether in terms of going all out. It's like climbing the steepest hill on the bike. I am going to keep at it and see if I can raise that # dammit..

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Last edited by: SharkFM: Jan 28, 15 12:33
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Re: force applied while swimming [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]
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Part II

Owen can crank the Ocean Mile swim race in 20 minutes give or take
I'll say at this point, I can probably do the same swim in 30 minutes " "

20/30 = .666666
55 lbs * .6666 = 36 lbs.
So the rough numbers kinda add up

If a swimmer's propulsion force was high, and times high - points to turns, starts or a hydrodynamic drag issue to be resolved.
If a swimmer's force is low and times low, then that would represent a good "Cda"

Also I would measure kick force and pull force and see what is up there - you'd get a ratio for a given swimmer. Pull/kick ratio

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Last edited by: SharkFM: Jan 28, 15 10:14
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Re: force applied while swimming [Kevin in MD] [ In reply to ]
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I've read those studies too. Some of the more recent research seems to suggest that you can get accurate readings with a tethered swim. Also, there is a difference between what they mean by a tethered swim and a resisted swim to determine peak power.

And you are correct that you can look at the Max Power Model curve which establishes the optimums for speed and peak power to determine if your stroke is efficient.

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Re: force applied while swimming [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]
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Thanks for posting your findings

As an individual attempting to alter my stroke as to apply more force to the water it amazes me that one has the power and form to apply 55 pounds of force to a liquid medium.
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Re: force applied while swimming [sametime] [ In reply to ]
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I've got some more observations to report from this morning and I was a bit surprised .

Kick Only Tests: 22lbs (w/air), 26lbs, ~30lbs getting a good foot hold, and full delivery. Kicking in streamline position.
Pull Tests: 24lbs, 30lbs up to 36lbs if I let a 2 beat kick creep in to support the pull.

Pulling flat & aggressive/rapid was least powerful. Rotation and a smooth longish stroke, got the highest #.

Great I thought, 20lbs kick, 30 lbs pull I'm going downtown to full scale @50lbs today baby!

6BK Kick and Pull all out test: 38 lbs. Dang! Same # as yesterday.

So there's the classic swimming quandary I suppose. My pull shuts down my kick or the other way around. What's in between the two? My core. But I think in this case it's torsional loading. Inability for the core to handle, co-ordinate or execute the torsional requirements of the FS stroke.

Last PS here: TBT I was a guy that believed that drag reduction and "technique" in that area trumped everything. But geez I have a new appreciation or awareness on what actual raw propulsion can do. And it's getting that propulsion up to spec and working for you. Looking at the gauge, last nite, I think Owen may have got to 60lbs, I'd have to get a new gauge to find out.

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Last edited by: SharkFM: Jan 29, 15 9:50
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Re: force applied while swimming [amykhall] [ In reply to ]
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amykhall wrote:
Keeping your hold on the water (constant pressure) when swimming freestyle requires strength but mostly technique and practice. Your hand should move very little underwater as your body goes forward. Here's an article just released today about using body rotation (core) and couple that with the radius and angular velocity of the arm during recovery to create a force to pull against. http://bit.ly/1H6rNGZ
Stretch Cordz are great if you are using them with the correct technique. There are a lot of variables like stance, elbow, hand and shoulder position throughout the pull back and release, spine position etc. Are these the kind you use?http://shop.theraceclub.com/...stretch-paddles.html[/quote[/url]]

If you think this statement through I believe you will come to the conclusion that a static force measurement (a force meter attached to you and the pool) will not yield a consistent meaningful measurement.

A static pull meter will measure the force being applied by your arm as it moves through the water. When you swim you are moving your body through the water instead of your arm, as described above, and that force is different, because the drag on your body moving through the water is going to be different than the drag on your arm moving though the water.

What you need to do is somehow measure the force required to move your body through the water at the speed that you swim. That would be the minimum force required by your arms, but you would never get there, because there are losses as your arm moves through the water. So unless your arm is completely stationary from the deck's perspective and only your body is moving, there will be an added force.

The force to move your body and the force to move your arm is the total force the arms are putting out.

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Re: force applied while swimming [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]
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SharkFM wrote:
I've got some more observations to report from this morning and I was a bit surprised .

Kick Only Tests: 22lbs (w/air), 26lbs, ~30lbs getting a good foot hold, and full delivery. Kicking in streamline position.
Pull Tests: 24lbs, 30lbs up to 36lbs if I let a 2 beat kick creep in to support the pull.

Pulling flat & aggressive/rapid was least powerful. Rotation and a smooth longish stroke, got the highest #.

Great I thought, 20lbs kick, 30 lbs pull I'm going downtown to full scale @50lbs today baby!

6BK Kick and Pull all out test: 38 lbs. Dang! Same # as yesterday.

So there's the classic swimming quandary I suppose. My pull shuts down my kick or the other way around. What's in between the two? My core. But I think in this case it's torsional loading. Inability for the core to handle, co-ordinate or execute the torsional requirements of the FS stroke.

Last PS here: TBT I was a guy that believed that drag reduction and "technique" in that area trumped everything. But geez I have a new appreciation or awareness on what actual raw propulsion can do. And it's getting that propulsion up to spec and working for you. Looking at the gauge, last nite, I think Owen may have got to 60lbs, I'd have to get a new gauge to find out.

You're forgetting the fact that you were using all your oxygen on each individual test, but when you combine legs and arms you're having to split your O2 betw arms and legs, so the sum is consid less than the sum of the 2 individual all-out tests.


"Anyone can be who they want to be IF they have the HUNGER and the DRIVE."
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Re: force applied while swimming [SharkFM] [ In reply to ]
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SharkFM wrote:

Pulling flat & aggressive/rapid was least powerful. Rotation and a smooth longish stroke, got the highest #.

Now figure out how to measure the different power between the two! Or maybe with stroke cadence you can calculate it if you know stroke length?

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Re: force applied while swimming [RowToTri] [ In reply to ]
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OK it's actually been one month since the first stall/force test.

I started , dryland swim specific training. Have not even got that fully up to speed yet. Have been working out on the fitness ball and nothing too crazy, but targeting the core much more than I normally would (which was zero except for some yoga)

Yesterday I ran 3 stall tests. First one was a bit of a bust. The second two were the business - got the scale to 44lbs, which is a 6 lb increase on the January test.

In this group of tests felt much more balanced left to right. I was getting near 50/50. Also the platform I had to execute the pull felt much better - this in part to kick timing work as well.

So moving in the right direction. I can only sustain max output for max 1 doz strokes that is how intense it is.

Next goofy thing to try that no one will understand why I would do this... - is a Head Weighting System. I did that today (will start a new thread!)

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Re: force applied while swimming [sametime] [ In reply to ]
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Fuck if I know .... I can pull some serious Straight Arm Pull Downs... single arm 40lbs, double 100 -110 lbs. I swam 20x50m @60 holding 32s today and its was not super hard. I swam a 17.06 1500m at 35 and have been 17.20 nearly every year in the last 10. My best free event at Masters Worlds was 400 in 4.27 LCM so 1.06.8/100. I consistently swim 100 Fly under 60 SCM and swam 60.9 LCM.

I can do 3 to 4 sets of 30-40 on 40lbs .... never tried to do 600 total reps...

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